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[Steve_G]

-Just got my Sept. '08 Motorcyclist mag in the mail today.  Victory Vision Tour vs. Gold Wing Vs. HD Ultra Classic vs. Triumph Rocket III.  Gold Wing won (no suprise here).  But the biggest shock was on the dyno testing.  Gold Wing 108.8 bhp and 109 lb ft tq.  -Nice!  the 96" Ultra 58.1 bhp/70.9 tq.  The Wing is almost DOUBLE the HD.  Way more than 50% more tq.  Of course the HD had by far the least power of anything in the test.  Maybe the Mo Co could coax a few more ponies out of our old pushrod engines.

[110tHunDer]

 
Interesting.  So, did they rank them 1 - 4?  I don't really think of the Rocket III as a touring bike.

[naitram]

they have a new model



but this looks like more fun

[Steve_G]

Interesting.  So, did they rank them 1 - 4?  I don't really think of the Rocket III as a touring bike.

1st place -Honda
2nd place- Victory Vision
3rd place- Triumph
4th place- HD
Note: 3rd and 4th weren't always specified, it was based on the "off the record" reports of the people test riding them.  One guy said of the HD that "the motor is underpowered for a bike in this category and it's not the best handler".
The article said of the Victory Vision Tour: "hands-down, and for every tester but tiny ones, this is the most comfortable touring bike around".
The article also said the Victory kept up with the Wing in the twisties.
Another quote: "To be brutally honest, we were each counting the miles until it was our turn to ride the Honda again".

I'm 6'4", and tried a new Wing a couple of years ago.  I can relate to another quote in the article:  "Anyone taller than Danny DeVito will feel hemmed in by the lower body ergonomics and fantasize about crash-bar mounted pegs, even if they'd have you doing a split".  That is exactly what I don't like about the Wing.  I'm far more comfortable on the Harley.  The ONLY problem with the HD E glides is the rain that is focused on your knees when it gets wet out.  I would guess that a Road Glide with lowers wouldn't have this problem.

[NWbiker]

I have read this thread with interest and the article.  I think some of those testers are strange to say it best.  All I can say is this.  In 2002 I purchased a brand new 1800 Goldwing.  I'm 6 foot and within a year I sold it.  I was never more uncomfortable on a bike in my life.  I could only go approx. 200 miles and I was done.  The seat was uncomfortable, I could not stretch out my legs (cramped up like on a sport touring bike) and my back even with the back rest would hurt, hips would hurt and it was just simply miserable.  I had a 99 Road king (stock seat) at the time also and was never uncomfortable on it.  We traded the Roadking in on a new 03 anniversary Ultra and quit riding the Honda.  Sold the Wing to a 5'5" one legged guy who converted it into a Trike, he's happy and I'm happy for him.  The ultra to me is far more comfortable, better center of gravity, better at slow maneuvers and I don't worry if my legs get wet (that's what rain pants or chaps are for).  We now have the 07 B/O SEUC and we both love the bike.  No more Goldwings for us.
They should let riders who have real experience on both write these reports.

[cowboy7123]

They should have used a CVO for the test with a 110 ( 1802 cc ) , The GW has a 1800CC eng. So its like night and day when you use a stock 96.

[Steve_G]

I've read a couple of dyno results on a stock CVO 110".  I remember the tq was 96 lb ft.  I believe the hp was around 86.  (I think).  That still puts the Wing way ahead on power. 
I know most people put a "stage 1" tune on their bikes, and they've reported the dyno results elswhere on this site.
With different pipes or mufflers, open A/C and tune, they are getting close to the Wing's stock numbers on tq, but most are still short on the horsies. 
The only way to get better numbers is with the addition of cams and head work.  -Hey, our beloved V-twins are an antique design.  For me, I'm very happy with the power my totally stock bike has.  I love everything about it, other than the leakage issues (I haven't had mine leak yet, and I'll get the enhancement program done).  -Besides, everything I own says HD on it.  I sure as hell can't afford to start over now.  I just think the Mo Co should refine their product and do recalls when their loyal customers all have the same problems.  Also it's discouraging when the updates are so dramatic and frequent that my '08 is already an old design.  It destroys the residual values of the bikes.  It makes getting parts a nightmare, and it's though for the aftermarket to develop products that need to be changed every year. 
I plan on keeping my current bike for the long term.  I'm done chasing the ever changing landscape that HD has become.  I just wish they would test their products before coming out with something totally new.  I don't live next door to a dealer, and don't like the idea of having a new engine torn apart for "enhancements" that I shouldn't need.

[grc]

They should have used a CVO for the test with a 110 ( 1802 cc ) , The GW has a 1800CC eng. So its like night and day when you use a stock 96.

Wouldn't make any difference, the Wing and the Rocket would still smoke the Harley and outhandle it, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Victory did the same.  The only way Harley can compete is if the other guys are required to run stock while the Harley guy spends thousands on mods.  Good thing they didn't include a 152hp 1200cc BMW in that test, it could have gotten pretty embarrassing.

I've always gotten a bit of a chuckle when folks finally realize that their overpriced antique design can't compete with the lower priced offerings from anyone else.  If you want fast in a straight line, the only reason to stop at a Harley shop is to see if they have a leftover Destroyer sitting around.  A decent second choice would be a V-Rod with the mid controls (versus the wind-up-your-pantleg riding position of the standard version).  Everything else hasn't been competitive since the original Japanese invasion in the 60's.  There are many valid reasons for someone to buy a Harley over one of the other brands, but performance is not one of them.

Funny thing about performance, be it acceleration, braking, or handling performance, light beats overweight every time.  If Harley could put their bikes on a diet and drop 100-200 lbs., you wouldn't need to spend thousands on engine mods to keep up.  IMHO, a nearly 1000 pound motorcycle is a bad joke.  Maybe it's time for aluminum frames and modern materials and design.  Or just fill the steel frames and tires and other hollow components with helium for the costcutter special version.  

Jerry

[iski]

Wouldn't make any difference, the Wing and the Rocket would still smoke the Harley and outhandle it, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Victory did the same.  The only way Harley can compete is if the other guys are required to run stock while the Harley guy spends thousands on mods.  Good thing they didn't include a 152hp 1200cc BMW in that test, it could have gotten pretty embarrassing.

I've always gotten a bit of a chuckle when folks finally realize that their overpriced antique design can't compete with the lower priced offerings from anyone else.  If you want fast in a straight line, the only reason to stop at a Harley shop is to see if they have a leftover Destroyer sitting around.  A decent second choice would be a V-Rod with the mid controls (versus the wind-up-your-pantleg riding position of the standard version).  Everything else hasn't been competitive since the original Japanese invasion in the 60's.  There are many valid reasons for someone to buy a Harley over one of the other brands, but performance is not one of them.

Funny thing about performance, be it acceleration, braking, or handling performance, light beats overweight every time.  If Harley could put their bikes on a diet and drop 100-200 lbs., you wouldn't need to spend thousands on engine mods to keep up.  IMHO, a nearly 1000 pound motorcycle is a bad joke.  Maybe it's time for aluminum frames and modern materials and design.  Or just fill the steel frames and tires and other hollow components with helium for the costcutter special version. 

Jerry

I did not buy my Harleys for speed - more for comfort.  Know some folks who are surprised when smaller cc bikes rocket past them, but since I used to ride those 'lil rockets, does not surprise me.  Same deal on braking and you are right on the money Jerry - it's also about weight.  Harleys are the land yachts of the world of 2 wheels.  And that's where the comfort comes into play for some of us.  For overall handling, speed, etc. best I have seen is that 1200 GS Beemer.  But it's not for me - like my Harleys just fine.  Next bike - a few years away maybe - more likely will be a Harley.

If they see your helium frame idea, they will patent it.   

Noticed years ago the All Harley Drags, races, etc.   Long time back, Harley competed with the rest of the biker world.  Then they decided to make their own racing class.  Guess Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha, BMW, etc. could do the same.......   

 Mike
 

[Dirkenstien]

Yet all of those other companies would still give anything to have what Harley has.

[charlie]

They seem to always put harley last but they seem to always out seel the rest.

[grc]

They seem to always put harley last but they seem to always out sell the rest.

True, but then again the same was true of GM and Ford for a lot of years before the bottom fell out.  By the end of this year you will see Toyota surpass both of those American icons in worldwide sales.  Lots of folks would have never believed that, including the head-in-the-sand upper management of those companies.

American automotive consumers used to be similar to Harley consumers, preferring the big inefficient Detroit iron to the smaller, higher quality, more efficient offerings from Japan.  I think that anyone who doesn't see the possibility of the same thing happening to Harley that has happened to Chrysler/Ford/GM is wearing blinders.  One of the reasons I keep making these unpopular posts about Harley and it's management is that I'm still a little like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills in the hope that I can somehow make a difference.  My bosses didn't listen all those years at Ford, but that didn't stop me from continuing to speak my piece.  Harley also doesn't appear to be listening, but I'm not giving up on them either.  Now where's that damned windmill?

Jerry

[sadunbar]

True, but then again the same was true of GM and Ford for a lot of years before the bottom fell out.  By the end of this year you will see Toyota surpass both of those American icons in worldwide sales.  Lots of folks would have never believed that, including the head-in-the-sand upper management of those companies.

American automotive consumers used to be similar to Harley consumers, preferring the big inefficient Detroit iron to the smaller, higher quality, more efficient offerings from Japan.  I think that anyone who doesn't see the possibility of the same thing happening to Harley that has happened to Chrysler/Ford/GM is wearing blinders.  One of the reasons I keep making these unpopular posts about Harley and it's management is that I'm still a little like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills in the hope that I can somehow make a difference.  My bosses didn't listen all those years at Ford, but that didn't stop me from continuing to speak my piece.  Harley also doesn't appear to be listening, but I'm not giving up on them either.  Now where's that damned windmill?

Jerry

Jerry,

Have you read "The Decline and Fall of the American Automotive Industry" by Brock Yates?

Scott

http://www.amazon.com/Decline-Fall-American-Automobile-Industry/dp/0394722523/ref=sr_1_7/002-6271290-2129610?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217634664&sr=1-7

[kojak]

True, but then again the same was true of GM and Ford for a lot of years before the bottom fell out.  By the end of this year you will see Toyota surpass both of those American icons in worldwide sales.  Lots of folks would have never believed that, including the head-in-the-sand upper management of those companies.

American automotive consumers used to be similar to Harley consumers, preferring the big inefficient Detroit iron to the smaller, higher quality, more efficient offerings from Japan.  I think that anyone who doesn't see the possibility of the same thing happening to Harley that has happened to Chrysler/Ford/GM is wearing blinders.  One of the reasons I keep making these unpopular posts about Harley and it's management is that I'm still a little like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills in the hope that I can somehow make a difference.  My bosses didn't listen all those years at Ford, but that didn't stop me from continuing to speak my piece.  Harley also doesn't appear to be listening, but I'm not giving up on them either.  Now where's that damned windmill?

Jerry

Last time I checked Jerry, Harley had a 60% share of the US Market, Honda 20%, and the rest split the remaining 20%. By the way, I owned the best sport touring bike made in the last 10 years, a 2005 FJR 1300 and also a 2005 Rocket 3. There was nothing that my glide could do better than the Yamaha but the Harley stayed and the others got sold. Dont understand it myself but I love my Harley's.

[grc]

Last time I checked Jerry, Harley had a 60% share of the US Market, Honda 20%, and the rest split the remaining 20%. By the way, I owned the best sport touring bike made in the last 10 years, a 2005 FJR 1300 and also a 2005 Rocket 3. There was nothing that my glide could do better than the Yamaha but the Harley stayed and the others got sold. Dont understand it myself but I love my Harley's.

That was part of the point of my post about the auto industry.  GM used to control 60% of the market, and the big three combined controlled over 90% as recently as the 1970's.  And many people continued to buy their favorite brand for many years after it became obvious that the Japanese competition had surpassed the American companies in quality and value.  I would suggest that H-D needs to study the history of the auto industry and take action to avoid the same fate as GM/Ford/Chrysler.  Assuming that there are no breakthrough miracles that allow us to maintain our mental and physical abilities well beyond our 100th birthdays, the MoCo will be looking at a whole different customer base in the next decade or two.  And it will be made up of people who aren't used to dealing with poor quality or poor performance.

JMHO - Jerry

[grc]

Jerry,

Have you read "The Decline and Fall of the American Automotive Industry" by Brock Yates?

Scott

http://www.amazon.com/Decline-Fall-American-Automobile-Industry/dp/0394722523/ref=sr_1_7/002-6271290-2129610?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217634664&sr=1-7

I saw something about that book Scott, but I didn't see a need to track down a copy since I pretty much lived the entire thing for over 50 years.  Born and raised in a GM town in Michigan, most of my family and my friend's families were employed by GM, and for most of my adult life I was employed by Ford in various lower and middle management capacities.  I could have probably helped Brock write the book.  

I'm not sure what Brock had to say, but others have written about failed government trade policies or excessive regulation or labor union excesses being a big part of the downfall of the industry, but as far as I'm concerned that's nothing but excuses.  The leadership of those companies was rewarded very handsomely to set the course and steer the ship, and they failed miserably despite warnings dating back to the early 80's.  Whenever I think about it I get angry, then sad.  Another major piece of history fading away due to greed, ego and stupidity.

Jerry

[FNGw/08SERK]

That was part of the point of my post about the auto industry.  GM used to control 60% of the market, and the big three combined controlled over 90% as recently as the 1970's.  And many people continued to buy their favorite brand for many years after it became obvious that the Japanese competition had surpassed the American companies in quality and value.  I would suggest that H-D needs to study the history of the auto industry and take action to avoid the same fate as GM/Ford/Chrysler.  Assuming that there are no breakthrough miracles that allow us to maintain our mental and physical abilities well beyond our 100th birthdays, the MoCo will be looking at a whole different customer base in the next decade or two.  And it will be made up of people who aren't used to dealing with poor quality or poor performance.

JMHO - Jerry

Very well put Jerry

[sadunbar]

I saw something about that book Scott, but I didn't see a need to track down a copy since I pretty much lived the entire thing for over 50 years.  Born and raised in a GM town in Michigan, most of my family and my friend's families were employed by GM, and for most of my adult life I was employed by Ford in various lower and middle management capacities.  I could have probably helped Brock write the book.  

I'm not sure what Brock had to say, but others have written about failed government trade policies or excessive regulation or labor union excesses being a big part of the downfall of the industry, but as far as I'm concerned that's nothing but excuses.  The leadership of those companies was rewarded very handsomely to set the course and steer the ship, and they failed miserably despite warnings dating back to the early 80's.  Whenever I think about it I get angry, then sad.  Another major piece of history fading away due to greed, ego and stupidity.

Jerry

Jerry,

You should find a copy and read the book.  Not at all about failed trade policies, regulations or unions.  More pointed towards the arrogance of top executives who lived luxurious lives in Bloomfield Hills with blinders on.  I would think with your past you would find the book fascinating reading...

Scott

[Spike]

I just bought a new truck last week. I looked at everything and to me everyone is building an equal product now. The American product is really turning around IMO but they have an image now of being the bad guy and thats going to be hard to change back. What's left of American companies have been very arrogant about their product and not willing to listen to the consumer. Now that their backs are against the wall they are finally listening. After 12 years of driving Toyota's I traded for a GMC and LOVE it. It's the tightest feeling truck I have drove in a long time. All the trucks were priced the same and GMC won out. Harley is really trying with the V-Rod but the public is slow to pick up on it because it's not a "Harley". change is inevitable but are you willing to accept it?

[NWbiker]

Jerry you have been missing out all those years.    I've been driving Chevy pickups for many years now and have always felt they were the best.  Just bought a 1/2 ton Silverado for the business and really like it.  Never owned a jap truck yet and never will.  Wife drives a 02 Chevy Impala with 96,000 trouble free miles and the car still looks as good as it did new.  Oh yea, she consistently gets 30-34 MPG HWY with it. 

[altugo]

I dont think Harleys are inferior in technology compared to other bikes.Especially with recent years changes.All of those test mean nothing really since none of the bikes are in the same catagory with harleys.Harley has 2 cylinder air cooled engine,wing has 6 cylinder water cooled civic engine lol and triumph has 3 cylinder watercooled 2000 cc engine.So performance vise its just not comparable.I have a Goldwing also and i found harleys more comfortable and betterbuilt.They also look better.If harley had a revo engine with classic styling than they could have compare it with those bikes.We all know 1250 cc two cyclinder revolution engined bike could smoke all those 6 and 3 cylinder wings and triumphs out there.

[laynlow]

I completely agree with your comment on the seat position of the GW. For such a large bike I don't understand why they don't do something about this? If you do put highway pegs on them you look like your about ready to get a lapdance "not that this isn't a bad idea" but give me a break! The design is truley a piece of art but I've run out of wall space with all my Harkey prints 

Isn't riding suppose to be an adventure and roughing it?

What next, probably a weather hood like I have on my ATV for snow plowing . . .

Just ride!

1st place -Honda
2nd place- Victory Vision
3rd place- Triumph
4th place- HD
Note: 3rd and 4th weren't always specified, it was based on the "off the record" reports of the people test riding them.  One guy said of the HD that "the motor is underpowered for a bike in this category and it's not the best handler".
The article said of the Victory Vision Tour: "hands-down, and for every tester but tiny ones, this is the most comfortable touring bike around".
The article also said the Victory kept up with the Wing in the twisties.
Another quote: "To be brutally honest, we were each counting the miles until it was our turn to ride the Honda again".

I'm 6'4", and tried a new Wing a couple of years ago.  I can relate to another quote in the article:  "Anyone taller than Danny DeVito will feel hemmed in by the lower body ergonomics and fantasize about crash-bar mounted pegs, even if they'd have you doing a split".  That is exactly what I don't like about the Wing.  I'm far more comfortable on the Harley.  The ONLY problem with the HD E glides is the rain that is focused on your knees when it gets wet out.  I would guess that a Road Glide with lowers wouldn't have this problem.

[jcd520]

One day an older man(75) was listening to us younger guys talk about this bike and that bike and all the BS that goes with them and when we got through he said this: Boys I have owned at one time or another every bike you all have mentioned and the bottom line is------Ive had more fun on the Harley! And he's still ridin em today.
    They are waaaaaaaaaaay over priced---especially the CVO's and then you still have to spend megabucks on them to get em to run right and fit you .I  am not talking about chrome stuff ---I am talking about important stuff , comfort and performance , things that should be there from the factory. Yet we still stay with them . I can't explain it , but I love my bike and I wish I had a new one. I dread doing all the stuff you gotta do to get it right , but its no worse I guess than rigging out a new pickup.

[kojak]

One day an older man(75) was listening to us younger guys talk about this bike and that bike and all the BS that goes with them and when we got through he said this: Boys I have owned at one time or another every bike you all have mentioned and the bottom line is------Ive had more fun on the Harley! And he's still ridin em today.
    They are waaaaaaaaaaay over priced---especially the CVO's and then you still have to spend megabucks on them to get em to run right and fit you .I  am not talking about chrome stuff ---I am talking about important stuff , comfort and performance , things that should be there from the factory. Yet we still stay with them . I can't explain it , but I love my bike and I wish I had a new one. I dread doing all the stuff you gotta do to get it right , but its no worse I guess than rigging out a new pickup.

Well said! When you make it just right, its your hog, plain and simple. Never felt that way about all the other bikes I've ridden over the years.

[BUNKERBEER]

Who cares?
We ride HD, the simbole of the land of the free!!!
Who cares about technology? EZ Rider was and is american made!!!
Dont forget who we are and what we stand for.
And also, i bet you more then 90% of us dont get to use all the HP in the bike any way.
And would it be fun without all the mods?
America baby, and dont forget it...
 

[skreminegul07]

Many years ago while working a wrench, an arguement about which is better a BMW (which by then boss rode) or a Harley that my friend rode.  They decided to bet $100 on who could return first with a hot chick on the back.  The guy on the Harley was back in about 10 minutes.  My boss with the BMW was never seen again!

[bsquared62]

I read that article, and it was an influencing factor in my buying the Vision. That's for sale already, and I absolutely love riding that bike. Problem is, it is not a Harley. I've had a Kawasaki Vulcan and spent thousands trying to make it a Harley, and now the Vision. I am a victim of exactly what the Motor Company has in mind in it's marketing (and in my opinion, the reason performance sucks) - we are captive to the history and aura of the Harley, and will pay all those outrageous dollars to fix ours up to perform better and make it our own. I think that's what makes it a bit different than the auto company comparison. I can't ever remember getting excited to hop in a Ford or Chevy sedan, but I sure do about my Harley. For performance/collector American cars, it is a different story - there is still the same mystique about them (Corvette, Chevelle, Mustang, Challenger, GTO) - owners will not choose a Japanese car over those relics even though they may perform better.

Just an opinion...
Brad

[TORKER07]

Harley Davidson, Ford, GM, and Maybe Chrysler again = Money stays in the States.
It's funny that just after 9-11 GM, Ford, and Chrysler stepped up to the plate and donated hundreds of cars, ambulances  and fire trucks and at the same time all Honda and Toyota did was boast about their profits. Our own media is mainly responsible for the demise of the American manufacturing companies from all areas. Don't you know we Americans don't do anything right, some examples are cooking, tailoring, rug making, furniture making, teaching, now even the medical area is being scrutinized. If Americans keep believing everything we read we will all become part of the buried living. When companies or people fall our media is there to praise the very ones that they dissed in the past. Of course they always know what is better for you, it says so in the paper.
Just a couple of days ago the most looked at resource for Americans, CONSUMERS REPORTS, had an article about a , well here is the quote

The (toyota) Scion xD has the best predicted-reliability score for new cars. Its owners reported 80 percent fewer problems than the average new car in our survey.   

WTF since when do we give ratings on a vehicle based on predictions! Then claim owners had 80% fewer problems on a future product.

If the American companies had the luxury of positive press releases we wouldn't be in this situation.

Biased meda is the sole blame for the demise of American companies. period

I'll continue to buy American whenever I can but that is becoming a scarcity nowadays.

GO HARLEY!

[Hoist!]

Harley Davidson, Ford, GM, and Maybe Chrysler again = Money stays in the States.
It's funny that just after 9-11 GM, Ford, and Chrysler stepped up to the plate and donated hundreds of cars, ambulances  and fire trucks and at the same time all Honda and Toyota did was boast about their profits. Our own media is mainly responsible for the demise of the American manufacturing companies from all areas. Don't you know we Americans don't do anything right, some examples are cooking, tailoring, rug making, furniture making, teaching, now even the medical area is being scrutinized. If Americans keep believing everything we read we will all become part of the buried living. When companies or people fall our media is there to praise the very ones that they dissed in the past. Of course they always know what is better for you, it says so in the paper.
Just a couple of days ago the most looked at resource for Americans, CONSUMERS REPORTS, had an article about a , well here is the quote

The (toyota) Scion xD has the best predicted-reliability score for new cars. Its owners reported 80 percent fewer problems than the average new car in our survey.   

WTF since when do we give ratings on a vehicle based on predictions! Then claim owners had 80% fewer problems on a future product.

If the American companies had the luxury of positive press releases we wouldn't be in this situation.

Biased meda is the sole blame for the demise of American companies. period

I'll continue to buy American whenever I can but that is becoming a scarcity nowadays.

GO HARLEY!

If HD cared more about quality than profits and return to shareholder, we wouldn't be in this situation!!! I've been saying for years to take care of the quality, make your customers happy, and you'll make the same money as you do the way you steal it now!!! FTF!!!

Hoist!

[Midnight Rider]

Harley Davidson, Ford, GM, and Maybe Chrysler again = Money stays in the States.
It's funny that just after 9-11 GM, Ford, and Chrysler stepped up to the plate and donated hundreds of cars, ambulances  and fire trucks and at the same time all Honda and Toyota did was boast about their profits. Our own media is mainly responsible for the demise of the American manufacturing companies from all areas. Don't you know we Americans don't do anything right, some examples are cooking, tailoring, rug making, furniture making, teaching, now even the medical area is being scrutinized. If Americans keep believing everything we read we will all become part of the buried living. When companies or people fall our media is there to praise the very ones that they dissed in the past. Of course they always know what is better for you, it says so in the paper.
Just a couple of days ago the most looked at resource for Americans, CONSUMERS REPORTS, had an article about a , well here is the quote

The (toyota) Scion xD has the best predicted-reliability score for new cars. Its owners reported 80 percent fewer problems than the average new car in our survey.   

WTF since when do we give ratings on a vehicle based on predictions! Then claim owners had 80% fewer problems on a future product.

If the American companies had the luxury of positive press releases we wouldn't be in this situation.

Biased meda is the sole blame for the demise of American companies. period

I'll continue to buy American whenever I can but that is becoming a scarcity nowadays.

GO HARLEY!

Predicted reliability is usually based on objective data gathered on previous production years, IF there are no major changes forthcoming.  This applies to many more things than hardware.  Even human behavior can be predicted on past actions.  American companies are responsible for their own demise in the vast majority of cases...they made chitty products, their customers were not happy with the product, so they went to other brands.  Mostly consumers are responsible for the demise of the garment industry in the US because we wanted clothing and shoes for a cheaper price than US companies could sell them. In most cases, the consumer's experience with the product determines loyalty or dissatisfaction, and not the media.  Brand loyalty will only carry a company so far.

As an aside...there are many parts on your HD motorcycle (both internal and external) that are not made in this country.  It may be assembled here, so if you want to count that as "made in the USA", then a whole bunch of other things count as well.  There are so many parts on a Ford, GM, etc product which are not made in this country, it would be difficult to count them all on any one car/truck.  Many makes of Toyota (Scion is the same as a Toyota), Honda, Hyundai, VW, etc, etc are almost wholly built and assembled here in this country or in Canada, giving American workers good paying jobs they would not otherwise have.  Make good stuff, people will buy it.  Make good stuff consistently over the years, and the prediction is that it will continue to be good stuff.  Basic statistical predictions, not media bias.

[REGGAB]

Predicted reliability is usually based on objective data gathered on previous production years, IF there are no major changes forthcoming.  This applies to many more things than hardware.  Even human behavior can be predicted on past actions.  American companies are responsible for their own demise in the vast majority of cases...they made chitty products, their customers were not happy with the product, so they went to other brands.  Mostly consumers are responsible for the demise of the garment industry in the US because we wanted clothing and shoes for a cheaper price than US companies could sell them. In most cases, the consumer's experience with the product determines loyalty or dissatisfaction, and not the media.  Brand loyalty will only carry a company so far.

As an aside...there are many parts on your HD motorcycle (both internal and external) that are not made in this country.  It may be assembled here, so if you want to count that as "made in the USA", then a whole bunch of other things count as well.  There are so many parts on a Ford, GM, etc product which are not made in this country, it would be difficult to count them all on any one car/truck.  Many makes of Toyota (Scion is the same as a Toyota), Honda, Hyundai, VW, etc, etc are almost wholly built and assembled here in this country or in Canada, giving American workers good paying jobs they would not otherwise have.  Make good stuff, people will buy it.  Make good stuff consistently over the years, and the prediction is that it will continue to be good stuff.  Basic statistical predictions, not media bias.

Heck I don't much of anything is 100% made in the USA anymore.  My Dodge to truck was "Hecho in Mexico."  Our Springfield Armory pistols were made in Croatia.  The HD crank Rod received and sent back was made in China.

[Midnight Rider]

Heck I don't much of anything is 100% made in the USA anymore.  My Dodge to truck was "Hecho in Mexico."  Our Springfield Armory pistols were made in Croatia.  The HD crank Rod received and sent back was made in China.

Henry...was the crank out of Thumper made in China?  I didn't think they started that until 07, but not sure I've ever seen that directly spoken about here...just curious.

Damn, are all the internals being made over there now?  You've got to catch me up on what's happening with your scoot....I somehow missed all of that.  Hope things are coming together as planned for you.

[REGGAB]

Henry...was the crank out of Thumper made in China?  I didn't think they started that until 07, but not sure I've ever seen that directly spoken about here...just curious.

Damn, are all the internals being made over there now?  You've got to catch me up on what's happening with your scoot....I somehow missed all of that.  Hope things are coming together as planned for you.

No, she had a good crank with the normal rod ends.  Replacement had tapered rod ends, so Rod repackaged it, sent it back, and ordered an S&S. 

Everything except the case halves will be new stuff.  Figured since everything was torn down, may as well spring for a Baker OD6, since the labor would be nil, so that is going in as well.

You didn't miss much.  She got REALLY sluggish.  No power.  Shaky.  Thank God we were close to home.  Long story short, pulled the sump plug and 22 ounces of oil came out.

[SERK3]

Yet all of those other companies would still give anything to have what Harley has.

I agree with you and charlie, the metrics have tried to copy a Harley and it just did not work for them, I have owned several Jap bikes since the early 70's, my 1st Harley in 04, 2nd Harley in 07, I will hang up my helmet if i have to buy any other bike.

[REGGAB]

I agree with you and charlie, the metrics have tried to copy a Harley and it just did not work for them, I have owned several Jap bikes since the early 70's, my 1st Harley in 04, 2nd Harley in 07, I will hang up my helmet if i have to buy any other bike.

I can't say that........though I love my H-Ds.  Saw a Ducati this past week.  WOW!

[BLM777]

In watching this thread evolve from the "comparative analysis" it's strange that the bike rags or foreign bike proponents never factor in the cost of ownership with particular regard to residual value.  Wouldn't ever consider one of the other bikes in this test, but couldn't mentally handle the resale value a couple of years down the road based upon my own decision to make the purchase.

[Midnight Rider]

No, she had a good crank with the normal rod ends.  Replacement had tapered rod ends, so Rod repackaged it, sent it back, and ordered an S&S. 

Everything except the case halves will be new stuff.  Figured since everything was torn down, may as well spring for a Baker OD6, since the labor would be nil, so that is going in as well.

You didn't miss much.  She got REALLY sluggish.  No power.  Shaky.  Thank God we were close to home.  Long story short, pulled the sump plug and 22 ounces of oil came out.

Well, Rod's been doin' it a while, so hopefully this will be the last time she's down other than normal wear and tear.  The six speed is a good idea....looking forward to hearing more about it in the future.

[Classic Beast]

Hmm had lots of Jap bikes over the years even a ZIRTC 1000 cc turbo (9.84 1/4 mile times) In 1979 I bought a damaged 75 FLH to fix up and make money on, ended up keeping it and selling the other 5 bikes I had since it was more fun riding with bent forks and duct taped saddle bag at 55 mph and 49hp 74" shovel head than the 140mph rockets I owned. Do I have logical reasons, thats tough to explain, resale value, parts availability things like that are what I usually respond with but I have a sign on my wall that says if you have to ask then you wouldn't understand. I got the sign from my mother in law, it was a shock but she did understand and never did ask. Every once in a while I will ride something else but they just don't have the "magic" of the harley.

[VI48]

If HD cared more about quality than profits and return to shareholder, we wouldn't be in this situation!!! I've been saying for years to take care of the quality, make your customers happy, and you'll make the same money as you do the way you steal it now!!! FTF!!!

Hoist!

Well said Hoist
 
If HD cared about the people that love and buy Harleys they would stand behind there customers.
HD is not a giant auto manufacturer, in totalunits they are a small company. They produce a product that we buy with our heart because it is a Harley. The sound, feel, ride and the history is the purchase that we make. If HD would realize this and build quality the company and profits would also grow. Plain and simple more people would buy a HD if they could trust reliability.  A lot of the public buy fake HD bikes because of cost, if they knew HD built better quality they too would pay the extra to own one.

I have owned japanese dirt bikes and sport bikes and had great fun on them. I still get the urge to be hard in a curve inches from the ground but as far as cruising theres nothing like a my HD.
That being said if I bailed it would be because HD does not care about its customers.

Lance

[CVOJOE]

Many years ago while working a wrench, an arguement about which is better a BMW (which by then boss rode) or a Harley that my friend rode.  They decided to bet $100 on who could return first with a hot chick on the back.  The guy on the Harley was back in about 10 minutes.  My boss with the BMW was never seen again!

Thus endeth the lesson! 

We don't buy them because they're inexpensive, fast, smooth, reliable, technologically up to date, or competitive. We buy 'em cause they're Harleys and have an American soul (partly outsourced).

 

[Hoist!]

Thus endeth the lesson! 

We don't buy them because they're inexpensive, fast, smooth, reliable, technologically up to date, or competitive. We buy 'em cause they're Harleys and have an American soul (partly outsourced).

 

Yeah, but we should be able to get that, and still get excellent quality too, if they wanted to Joe. And it wouldn't cost em one red cent cause nobody would balk if these things were a few hundred more, but you got a flawless bike out of the deal! Get your heads out of your ass HD, before you lose these loyal customers!!! Build em like HD's AND build em right!!! You'll increase market share, profits, and return to shareholder, all while not costing you a damn thing!!! WTF is wrong with these people? FTF!!!

Hoist!

[AZSSE]

I know that Harley is over priced, under performing, and obsolete. I also know that every time I'm on something besides a Harley, no matter how fast, how comfortable, how well made, or how cheap, I feel like I should be on a Harley. Riding a Harley makes my heart feel warm, and I'm content on a Harley like I am no where else in life. When I'm on the highway with the sound of that engine competing with the wind to see who's louder, and nothing in sight except a white line down the middle of the road, I'm almost hypnotized, and all of my problems, both real and imagined, are far far away. I'll have a Harley, and ride a Harley until I can no longer get on a bike. And after that time comes, I'll want to be near the highway so I can see and hear them going by, just for the memories.

[Spike]

Yeah, but we should be able to get that, and still get excellent quality too, if they wanted to Joe. And it wouldn't cost em one red cent cause nobody would balk if these things were a few hundred more, but you got a flawless bike out of the deal! Get your heads out of your ass HD, before you lose these loyal customers!!! Build em like HD's AND build em right!!! You'll increase market share, profits, and return to shareholder, all while not costing you a damn thing!!! WTF is wrong with these people? FTF!!!

Hoist!

Unfortunately, the corporate bean counters have become with the bottom line and will do anything to double their money.

[MIKEYTEE]

IMHO
Unfortunately, the stockholders of HD are for the most part investors not riders. That being said, they don't give a chit about anything but ROI. If they were riders they would care that the product was 1st class and as problem free as could be produced.
Then the ROI would follow.
Mike