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[grc]

Jerry,

Have you read "The Decline and Fall of the American Automotive Industry" by Brock Yates?

Scott

http://www.amazon.com/Decline-Fall-American-Automobile-Industry/dp/0394722523/ref=sr_1_7/002-6271290-2129610?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217634664&sr=1-7

I saw something about that book Scott, but I didn't see a need to track down a copy since I pretty much lived the entire thing for over 50 years.  Born and raised in a GM town in Michigan, most of my family and my friend's families were employed by GM, and for most of my adult life I was employed by Ford in various lower and middle management capacities.  I could have probably helped Brock write the book.  

I'm not sure what Brock had to say, but others have written about failed government trade policies or excessive regulation or labor union excesses being a big part of the downfall of the industry, but as far as I'm concerned that's nothing but excuses.  The leadership of those companies was rewarded very handsomely to set the course and steer the ship, and they failed miserably despite warnings dating back to the early 80's.  Whenever I think about it I get angry, then sad.  Another major piece of history fading away due to greed, ego and stupidity.

Jerry

[FNGw/08SERK]

That was part of the point of my post about the auto industry.  GM used to control 60% of the market, and the big three combined controlled over 90% as recently as the 1970's.  And many people continued to buy their favorite brand for many years after it became obvious that the Japanese competition had surpassed the American companies in quality and value.  I would suggest that H-D needs to study the history of the auto industry and take action to avoid the same fate as GM/Ford/Chrysler.  Assuming that there are no breakthrough miracles that allow us to maintain our mental and physical abilities well beyond our 100th birthdays, the MoCo will be looking at a whole different customer base in the next decade or two.  And it will be made up of people who aren't used to dealing with poor quality or poor performance.

JMHO - Jerry

Very well put Jerry

[sadunbar]

I saw something about that book Scott, but I didn't see a need to track down a copy since I pretty much lived the entire thing for over 50 years.  Born and raised in a GM town in Michigan, most of my family and my friend's families were employed by GM, and for most of my adult life I was employed by Ford in various lower and middle management capacities.  I could have probably helped Brock write the book.  

I'm not sure what Brock had to say, but others have written about failed government trade policies or excessive regulation or labor union excesses being a big part of the downfall of the industry, but as far as I'm concerned that's nothing but excuses.  The leadership of those companies was rewarded very handsomely to set the course and steer the ship, and they failed miserably despite warnings dating back to the early 80's.  Whenever I think about it I get angry, then sad.  Another major piece of history fading away due to greed, ego and stupidity.

Jerry

Jerry,

You should find a copy and read the book.  Not at all about failed trade policies, regulations or unions.  More pointed towards the arrogance of top executives who lived luxurious lives in Bloomfield Hills with blinders on.  I would think with your past you would find the book fascinating reading...

Scott

[Spike]

I just bought a new truck last week. I looked at everything and to me everyone is building an equal product now. The American product is really turning around IMO but they have an image now of being the bad guy and thats going to be hard to change back. What's left of American companies have been very arrogant about their product and not willing to listen to the consumer. Now that their backs are against the wall they are finally listening. After 12 years of driving Toyota's I traded for a GMC and LOVE it. It's the tightest feeling truck I have drove in a long time. All the trucks were priced the same and GMC won out. Harley is really trying with the V-Rod but the public is slow to pick up on it because it's not a "Harley". change is inevitable but are you willing to accept it?

[NWbiker]

Jerry you have been missing out all those years.    I've been driving Chevy pickups for many years now and have always felt they were the best.  Just bought a 1/2 ton Silverado for the business and really like it.  Never owned a jap truck yet and never will.  Wife drives a 02 Chevy Impala with 96,000 trouble free miles and the car still looks as good as it did new.  Oh yea, she consistently gets 30-34 MPG HWY with it. 

[altugo]

I dont think Harleys are inferior in technology compared to other bikes.Especially with recent years changes.All of those test mean nothing really since none of the bikes are in the same catagory with harleys.Harley has 2 cylinder air cooled engine,wing has 6 cylinder water cooled civic engine lol and triumph has 3 cylinder watercooled 2000 cc engine.So performance vise its just not comparable.I have a Goldwing also and i found harleys more comfortable and betterbuilt.They also look better.If harley had a revo engine with classic styling than they could have compare it with those bikes.We all know 1250 cc two cyclinder revolution engined bike could smoke all those 6 and 3 cylinder wings and triumphs out there.

[laynlow]

I completely agree with your comment on the seat position of the GW. For such a large bike I don't understand why they don't do something about this? If you do put highway pegs on them you look like your about ready to get a lapdance "not that this isn't a bad idea" but give me a break! The design is truley a piece of art but I've run out of wall space with all my Harkey prints 

Isn't riding suppose to be an adventure and roughing it?

What next, probably a weather hood like I have on my ATV for snow plowing . . .

Just ride!

1st place -Honda
2nd place- Victory Vision
3rd place- Triumph
4th place- HD
Note: 3rd and 4th weren't always specified, it was based on the "off the record" reports of the people test riding them.  One guy said of the HD that "the motor is underpowered for a bike in this category and it's not the best handler".
The article said of the Victory Vision Tour: "hands-down, and for every tester but tiny ones, this is the most comfortable touring bike around".
The article also said the Victory kept up with the Wing in the twisties.
Another quote: "To be brutally honest, we were each counting the miles until it was our turn to ride the Honda again".

I'm 6'4", and tried a new Wing a couple of years ago.  I can relate to another quote in the article:  "Anyone taller than Danny DeVito will feel hemmed in by the lower body ergonomics and fantasize about crash-bar mounted pegs, even if they'd have you doing a split".  That is exactly what I don't like about the Wing.  I'm far more comfortable on the Harley.  The ONLY problem with the HD E glides is the rain that is focused on your knees when it gets wet out.  I would guess that a Road Glide with lowers wouldn't have this problem.

[jcd520]

One day an older man(75) was listening to us younger guys talk about this bike and that bike and all the BS that goes with them and when we got through he said this: Boys I have owned at one time or another every bike you all have mentioned and the bottom line is------Ive had more fun on the Harley! And he's still ridin em today.
    They are waaaaaaaaaaay over priced---especially the CVO's and then you still have to spend megabucks on them to get em to run right and fit you .I  am not talking about chrome stuff ---I am talking about important stuff , comfort and performance , things that should be there from the factory. Yet we still stay with them . I can't explain it , but I love my bike and I wish I had a new one. I dread doing all the stuff you gotta do to get it right , but its no worse I guess than rigging out a new pickup.

[kojak]

One day an older man(75) was listening to us younger guys talk about this bike and that bike and all the BS that goes with them and when we got through he said this: Boys I have owned at one time or another every bike you all have mentioned and the bottom line is------Ive had more fun on the Harley! And he's still ridin em today.
    They are waaaaaaaaaaay over priced---especially the CVO's and then you still have to spend megabucks on them to get em to run right and fit you .I  am not talking about chrome stuff ---I am talking about important stuff , comfort and performance , things that should be there from the factory. Yet we still stay with them . I can't explain it , but I love my bike and I wish I had a new one. I dread doing all the stuff you gotta do to get it right , but its no worse I guess than rigging out a new pickup.

Well said! When you make it just right, its your hog, plain and simple. Never felt that way about all the other bikes I've ridden over the years.

[BUNKERBEER]

Who cares?
We ride HD, the simbole of the land of the free!!!
Who cares about technology? EZ Rider was and is american made!!!
Dont forget who we are and what we stand for.
And also, i bet you more then 90% of us dont get to use all the HP in the bike any way.
And would it be fun without all the mods?
America baby, and dont forget it...
 

[skreminegul07]

Many years ago while working a wrench, an arguement about which is better a BMW (which by then boss rode) or a Harley that my friend rode.  They decided to bet $100 on who could return first with a hot chick on the back.  The guy on the Harley was back in about 10 minutes.  My boss with the BMW was never seen again!

[bsquared62]

I read that article, and it was an influencing factor in my buying the Vision. That's for sale already, and I absolutely love riding that bike. Problem is, it is not a Harley. I've had a Kawasaki Vulcan and spent thousands trying to make it a Harley, and now the Vision. I am a victim of exactly what the Motor Company has in mind in it's marketing (and in my opinion, the reason performance sucks) - we are captive to the history and aura of the Harley, and will pay all those outrageous dollars to fix ours up to perform better and make it our own. I think that's what makes it a bit different than the auto company comparison. I can't ever remember getting excited to hop in a Ford or Chevy sedan, but I sure do about my Harley. For performance/collector American cars, it is a different story - there is still the same mystique about them (Corvette, Chevelle, Mustang, Challenger, GTO) - owners will not choose a Japanese car over those relics even though they may perform better.

Just an opinion...
Brad

[TORKER07]

Harley Davidson, Ford, GM, and Maybe Chrysler again = Money stays in the States.
It's funny that just after 9-11 GM, Ford, and Chrysler stepped up to the plate and donated hundreds of cars, ambulances  and fire trucks and at the same time all Honda and Toyota did was boast about their profits. Our own media is mainly responsible for the demise of the American manufacturing companies from all areas. Don't you know we Americans don't do anything right, some examples are cooking, tailoring, rug making, furniture making, teaching, now even the medical area is being scrutinized. If Americans keep believing everything we read we will all become part of the buried living. When companies or people fall our media is there to praise the very ones that they dissed in the past. Of course they always know what is better for you, it says so in the paper.
Just a couple of days ago the most looked at resource for Americans, CONSUMERS REPORTS, had an article about a , well here is the quote

The (toyota) Scion xD has the best predicted-reliability score for new cars. Its owners reported 80 percent fewer problems than the average new car in our survey.   

WTF since when do we give ratings on a vehicle based on predictions! Then claim owners had 80% fewer problems on a future product.

If the American companies had the luxury of positive press releases we wouldn't be in this situation.

Biased meda is the sole blame for the demise of American companies. period

I'll continue to buy American whenever I can but that is becoming a scarcity nowadays.

GO HARLEY!

[Hoist!]

Harley Davidson, Ford, GM, and Maybe Chrysler again = Money stays in the States.
It's funny that just after 9-11 GM, Ford, and Chrysler stepped up to the plate and donated hundreds of cars, ambulances  and fire trucks and at the same time all Honda and Toyota did was boast about their profits. Our own media is mainly responsible for the demise of the American manufacturing companies from all areas. Don't you know we Americans don't do anything right, some examples are cooking, tailoring, rug making, furniture making, teaching, now even the medical area is being scrutinized. If Americans keep believing everything we read we will all become part of the buried living. When companies or people fall our media is there to praise the very ones that they dissed in the past. Of course they always know what is better for you, it says so in the paper.
Just a couple of days ago the most looked at resource for Americans, CONSUMERS REPORTS, had an article about a , well here is the quote

The (toyota) Scion xD has the best predicted-reliability score for new cars. Its owners reported 80 percent fewer problems than the average new car in our survey.   

WTF since when do we give ratings on a vehicle based on predictions! Then claim owners had 80% fewer problems on a future product.

If the American companies had the luxury of positive press releases we wouldn't be in this situation.

Biased meda is the sole blame for the demise of American companies. period

I'll continue to buy American whenever I can but that is becoming a scarcity nowadays.

GO HARLEY!

If HD cared more about quality than profits and return to shareholder, we wouldn't be in this situation!!! I've been saying for years to take care of the quality, make your customers happy, and you'll make the same money as you do the way you steal it now!!! FTF!!!

Hoist!

[Midnight Rider]

Harley Davidson, Ford, GM, and Maybe Chrysler again = Money stays in the States.
It's funny that just after 9-11 GM, Ford, and Chrysler stepped up to the plate and donated hundreds of cars, ambulances  and fire trucks and at the same time all Honda and Toyota did was boast about their profits. Our own media is mainly responsible for the demise of the American manufacturing companies from all areas. Don't you know we Americans don't do anything right, some examples are cooking, tailoring, rug making, furniture making, teaching, now even the medical area is being scrutinized. If Americans keep believing everything we read we will all become part of the buried living. When companies or people fall our media is there to praise the very ones that they dissed in the past. Of course they always know what is better for you, it says so in the paper.
Just a couple of days ago the most looked at resource for Americans, CONSUMERS REPORTS, had an article about a , well here is the quote

The (toyota) Scion xD has the best predicted-reliability score for new cars. Its owners reported 80 percent fewer problems than the average new car in our survey.   

WTF since when do we give ratings on a vehicle based on predictions! Then claim owners had 80% fewer problems on a future product.

If the American companies had the luxury of positive press releases we wouldn't be in this situation.

Biased meda is the sole blame for the demise of American companies. period

I'll continue to buy American whenever I can but that is becoming a scarcity nowadays.

GO HARLEY!

Predicted reliability is usually based on objective data gathered on previous production years, IF there are no major changes forthcoming.  This applies to many more things than hardware.  Even human behavior can be predicted on past actions.  American companies are responsible for their own demise in the vast majority of cases...they made chitty products, their customers were not happy with the product, so they went to other brands.  Mostly consumers are responsible for the demise of the garment industry in the US because we wanted clothing and shoes for a cheaper price than US companies could sell them. In most cases, the consumer's experience with the product determines loyalty or dissatisfaction, and not the media.  Brand loyalty will only carry a company so far.

As an aside...there are many parts on your HD motorcycle (both internal and external) that are not made in this country.  It may be assembled here, so if you want to count that as "made in the USA", then a whole bunch of other things count as well.  There are so many parts on a Ford, GM, etc product which are not made in this country, it would be difficult to count them all on any one car/truck.  Many makes of Toyota (Scion is the same as a Toyota), Honda, Hyundai, VW, etc, etc are almost wholly built and assembled here in this country or in Canada, giving American workers good paying jobs they would not otherwise have.  Make good stuff, people will buy it.  Make good stuff consistently over the years, and the prediction is that it will continue to be good stuff.  Basic statistical predictions, not media bias.