Topic: Harley lithium battery (Read 2700 times)

Threephase · « **on:** October 11, 2020, 12:18:46 AM »

So I go to my dealer today to get a new battery for my bike. Considering the new lithium ion version. Compact and lightweight.

Decided to buy it. Was told I have to buy a specific battery charger/tender for it since it is a lithium ion battery.

Sooooooo, I then asked, “how does the bikes charging system know it is charging a lithium battery?”

Valid question or am I missing something?

Dennis97 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 11, 2020, 09:56:44 AM »

I'll bet the person you asked had a deer in the headlights look. That is a very good question to ask. I don't think I would put one in unless they can explain how it could charge properly in the bike. Lithium is charged differently.

CVO Couple · « **Reply #2 on:** October 11, 2020, 10:48:40 AM »

Might have something to to with being left on a charger versus riding the motorcycle for several hours and a tender being on for days/weeks. Fully charged voltage is slightly different I believe.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RivRaptor · « **Reply #3 on:** October 11, 2020, 01:24:50 PM »

Regular battery maintainers keep your battery topped off by hitting the battery with multi-hit pulses @ around 700ma (less than 1 amp) current, this is fine for a regular lead acid or gel battery but can cause a lithium battery to over heat and possibly explode. Lithium batteries need a constant (steady) 2amp charge to top off or maintain. Your charging system on your bike is a constant type charging system.

Para Bellum · « **Reply #4 on:** October 11, 2020, 09:42:25 PM »

Quote from: RivRaptor on October 11, 2020, 01:24:50 PM

Regular battery maintainers keep your battery topped off by hitting the battery with multi-hit pulses @ around 700ma (less than 1 amp) current, this is fine for a regular lead acid or gel battery but can cause a lithium battery to over heat and possibly explode. Lithium batteries need a constant (steady) 2amp charge to top off or maintain. Your charging system on your bike is a constant type charging system.

Riv, can you give me a link to that info? It just doesn't feel correct, since a steady 2 amp current delivers *at least* 3 times as much energy (and heat) as does a 0.7 amp *pulsed* current. Thanks.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #5 on:** October 11, 2020, 10:50:35 PM »

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

And many others. Li-ion charging requirements/differences and the potential dangers attendant to doing it wrong isn't magic nor new anymore. It's as dangerous as telling Gary he looks good on the orange Honda.

Threephase · « **Reply #6 on:** October 12, 2020, 03:42:55 AM »

This paragraph in the article makes sense. I can accept this explanation.

“ Li-ion cannot absorb overcharge. When fully charged, the charge current must be cut off. A continuous trickle charge would cause plating of metallic lithium and compromise safety. To minimize stress, keep the lithium-ion battery at the peak cut-off as short as possible. “

Madmanmike · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2020, 07:24:18 AM »

I have only read about this, I don't have one, but I read that the LiOn batteries hold their charge so well, trickle charging is really unnecessary.

CVO Couple · « **Reply #8 on:** October 12, 2020, 07:35:43 AM »

True. But most modern vehicles have a small draw on them all the time. If not run to recharge regularly should have a battery maintainer.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Eqcons · « **Reply #9 on:** October 12, 2020, 07:52:45 AM »

Quote from: Twolanerider on October 11, 2020, 10:50:35 PM

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

And many others. Li-ion charging requirements/differences and the potential dangers attendant to doing it wrong isn't magic nor new anymore. It's as dangerous as telling Gary he looks good on the orange Honda.

The Harley ones are not LiIon though, Don. They are LiFePO4 - isn't that different from LiIon? (I dunno!)

2k · « **Reply #10 on:** October 12, 2020, 10:53:07 AM »

Google says:

The lithium-iron (LiFePo4) battery has a slight edge over the Li-ion (LiCoO2) battery for safety. This is important because a battery should not get overheated or catch fire in case of overcharging. The lithium-iron battery has superior chemical and thermal stability.

RivRaptor · « **Reply #11 on:** October 12, 2020, 02:15:42 PM »

Quote from: Para Bellum on October 11, 2020, 09:42:25 PM

Riv, can you give me a link to that info? It just doesn't feel correct, since a steady 2 amp current delivers *at least* 3 times as much energy (and heat) as does a 0.7 amp *pulsed* current. Thanks.

We can get really deep when discussing this subject. Trying to keep it simple, what I am referring to a 700ma pulse rate (Pulsed rate is also know also as a float or trickle charge after top off, which you never want to do for storage to a lithium battery. Lithium's also do not need to be topped off for long term storage as they do not lose much voltage over time. (there are other reasons) There are also other specific things to take into consideration when charging lithium 's (too much voltage, cell balance, and how the voltage is applied and when) A local shop selling early lithium's (of which I purchase a few) stop selling them because of a couple of reported fires. Turns out if you had a faulty voltage regulator that happen to charge over 14.5 - 15 volts it could cause a fire. The shop still won't sell them even though the new batteries have protections built in, but that doesn't make them bullet proof. I removed them from my older Ducati's due to this (Ducati's in my experience have flakey charging systems) In my other post was just trying to explain the difference between the two chargers I have for my bikes (I also have much more specialize chargers for my RC stuff) and probably could have done a better job. Basically don't trickle charge a lithium battery and after a steady short charge on a lithium, disconnect the charger.

porthole · « **Reply #12 on:** October 12, 2020, 04:18:07 PM »

Quote from: Eqcons on October 12, 2020, 07:52:45 AM

The Harley ones are not LiIon though, Don. They are LiFePO4 - isn't that different from LiIon? (I dunno!)

LiFEPO4 (lithium iron phosphate) are different, and much safer then the lithium ion batteries famous for self destructing.

Do the Harley replacement batteries have built in battery maintenance systems aka BMS?

LiFEPO4 batteries do require a different charge profile and do not use the desulfation mode some chargers automatically apply.

There are also charge limitations for temperature extremes.
The technology is neat and is really suitable in deep cycle applications.

I have six 100 ah LiFEPO4's in our RV.
I increased my storage capacity by a factor of 6 at half the weight and only increasing the footprint by two batteries.

skratch · « **Reply #13 on:** October 12, 2020, 09:30:58 PM »

Quote from: Madmanmike on October 12, 2020, 07:24:18 AM

I have only read about this, I don't have one, but I read that the LiOn batteries hold their charge so well, trickle charging is really unnecessary.

if you disconnect it from all draw, it will last a long time. but, with a parasitic draw on it (think security, radio memory, etc) it will not last near as long as an agm battery before needing to be recharged.

Para Bellum · « **Reply #14 on:** October 13, 2020, 06:46:07 PM »

Quote from: Threephase on October 12, 2020, 03:42:55 AM

This paragraph in the article makes sense. I can accept this explanation.

Thanks, that does make sense.

Quote from: RivRaptor on October 12, 2020, 02:15:42 PM

In my other post was just trying to explain the difference between the two chargers I have for my bikes (I also have much more specialize chargers for my RC stuff)...
Basically don't trickle charge a lithium battery and after a steady short charge on a lithium, disconnect the charger.

Thanks, I get it now. Sure are a lot of ins and outs to the new batteries! Helps to have this good thread so we can all get up to speed on them.

Eqcons · « **Reply #15 on:** October 14, 2020, 04:45:41 AM »

Quote from: RivRaptor on October 12, 2020, 02:15:42 PM

Basically don't trickle charge a lithium battery and after a steady short charge on a lithium, disconnect the charger.

Are the battery maintainers sold as being for LiFePo4 batteries smart enough to not trickle charge them? That is, is it OK to leave them connected over winter, as with a normal Lead Acid or AGP battery maintainer?

porthole · « **Reply #16 on:** October 14, 2020, 09:24:04 AM »

Quote from: RivRaptor on October 12, 2020, 02:15:42 PM

Basically don't trickle charge a lithium battery and after a steady short charge on a lithium, disconnect the charger.

This is really dependent on the battery and charge equipment.

HD does not specify on their website if the "LiFe" battery is LiFePO4 chemistry. Can only assume that it is.
https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/shop/lithium-life-8ah-battery/p/66000175

My experience is with high quality commercially available LiFePO4 100Ah 12 volt batteries, Specifically Battle Born. There are several "builders" now supplying batteries to the RV and alternative energy sector (and many of those builders all started out together).

My batteries are pricey and come with a 10 year warranty. The manufacturers states it is ok to be left with a maintenance charger connected (with the proper profile).

Under the proper charge profile the battereis can be left on "float" charge indefinitely. But there is no need to do so if the battereis are not in a an active environment, eg connected to various vehicle parasitic loads.

LiFePO4's can be left on a float charge of 13.6 volts, which is why conventional SLA chargers should not be used.

If disconnected from the vehicle LiFePO4's can be left 6-12 months with no chargers connected and best practice it to store the battereis at 50-70% state of charge. Apparently continued 100% SOC storage can degrade the batteries over time.

Even if left in a circuit which has a draw, the built ion BMS, battery management system should "turn off" the battery when the voltage drops to a point where any more discharge could harm the battery.

I have done this once so far with our RV. I leave everything on when not in use, any 12 volt systems and a 3000 watt inverter for the fridge, outlets etc and depend on solar to keep the battereis up. I had once fault with the solar controller and the batteries where not being charged.

The battery is not really dead, just turned off. I simple jump start from another 12 volt source will turn them back on and be ready for use.

RivRaptor · « **Reply #17 on:** October 14, 2020, 01:47:17 PM »

Quote from: Eqcons on October 14, 2020, 04:45:41 AM

Are the battery maintainers sold as being for LiFePo4 batteries smart enough to not trickle charge them? That is, is it OK to leave them connected over winter, as with a normal Lead Acid or AGP battery maintainer?

As others have stated and myself not stating that there are different types of Lithuims in a (Family) of batteries out now all with different charging profiles and safety issues. Basically if you charge this (family of batteries) wrong you could have issues. Now that being said I did keep a lithium specific charger on my Ducati's back in the day all the time (didn't know any better at the time) and had no issues. It was the proper charger for that battery, but there is no 100% guarantee and because I stored some of these bikes in my house I decided that it wasn't a good idea after hearing about some fires from my battery suppler (They were Anti Gravities and were probably the result of bad Regulators on the bikes themselves and not the maintainers but I just wanted to be on the safe side). Now my 17' CVO is coming up on needing its first battery and after shopping around I'm probably going with an Odyssey 100% pure virgin lead battery because weight is not an issue with HD and no cold start issues, lasts as long or longer, no charging maintaining issues, price and have had good luck with these batteries in my boats. If you get the manufactures recommended charger and with the safety circuits in the newer batteries you should be fine, but an email to the battery manufacturer couldn't hurt! If you get an answer please post it.

Eqcons · « **Reply #18 on:** October 14, 2020, 01:57:27 PM »

Quote from: RivRaptor on October 14, 2020, 01:47:17 PM

an email to the battery manufacturer couldn't hurt! If you get an answer please post it.

I haven't got one personally - I went for a high CCA AGP replacement, but my friend went for the HP Lithium one. He did buy a good make charger/maintainer that is said to be OK for Lithium, so was wondering on his behalf, if you see what I mean.

rayson56 · « **Reply #19 on:** October 14, 2020, 04:39:28 PM »

Now my 17' CVO is coming up on needing its first battery and after shopping around I'm probably going with an Odyssey 100% pure virgin lead battery because weight is not an issue with HD and no cold start issues, lasts as long or longer, no charging maintaining issues, price and have had good luck with these batteries in my boats. If you get the manufactures recommended charger and with the safety circuits in the newer batteries you should be fine, but an email to the battery manufacturer couldn't hurt! If you get an answer please post it.
[/quote]

Is that a PC 925 LMJ?

Threephase · « **Reply #20 on:** October 15, 2020, 02:31:19 AM »

I understand the need for the trickle charger for the new Harley lithium battery. The pulse, no over charging and all. But I still have not seen any good reason that compensates for the charging system of the bike. It does not know that it is charging a lithium battery. So what keeps the bike from over charging the battery? Seems like it would be no different than a regular battery charger. If I ride 8 hours a day, the bike is producing more electrical energy than is needed. So what protects the battery from the bikes charging system?

CVO Couple · « **Reply #21 on:** October 16, 2020, 07:37:53 AM »

When your bike is running and charging it’s also using electricity to run the bike and it’s accessories. The voltage regulator will increase or decrease the amount required.

I know it don’t answer your question if the bike knows what kind of battery it’s charging.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RivRaptor · « **Reply #22 on:** December 06, 2020, 02:16:19 PM »

Is that a PC 925 LMJ?
[/quote]
Yes, sorry for the delayed response didn't have time to install until yesterday so wasn't totally sure of fitment. Nice battery has a metal casing around it and looks well built but it did throw me for a loop at first because you have to install it on its side to equal the dimensions of the stock battery, then you need the install these little "L" brackets supplied in the hardware pack so you can match the stock terminals orientation. Therein lies my bitch...Odyssey should have sodered/welded/machined a nut underneath the "L" bracket cause its a bitch to get the nut & lock washer under the bracket (impossible) so had to use the bolt coming up from underneath with some tape/bent flat blade & a helper to get the lock washer, nut & dab of lock tight fastened down with the battery cables.

Author Topic: Harley lithium battery (Read 2700 times)