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Author Topic: "103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers post race summary  (Read 8661 times)

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Twolanerider

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"103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers post race summary
« on: April 01, 2007, 10:04:15 PM »

Don't read anything in to the descriptions that might follow in this thread.  They were initial impressions of the "103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers.  Initial impressions that did not hold up in warmer weather.  The bike was unrideable in anything much above 75-80 degrees. 

The initial machine work provided was very poor.  Valve job was actually re-touched locally as I wouldn't install it with the seats as deep as they were provided.  Also later discovered that much of the driveability problem was poor flow in the heads attempting to be compensated by a cam (657) larger than I'd been told to expect in the package.  That combination made it very difficult to tune.

The Thundermax supplied with the kit couldn't tune the bike enough with its autotuning ability to make the bike rideable.  In fact it often "tuned" making guesses more wrong than right.  In warmer weather the bike was still all but unrideable due to detonation.  In hot weather it was unrideable.

Changing cams was a band aid repair for awhile.  New top end losing the poorly designed head package was a final solution.  The company was a disaster throughout.  Fine people to work with while orders and money was going in.  Head in the sand wastes of time once they began to be asked about problems and questions.  There service, delays in delivery, poor machine work and general was such that I personally would attempt sexual congress with a syphilitic porcupine before I would ever buy another part from them.



A year and a half later and I still feel the same way :huepfenlol2: :2vrolijk_21: .
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 01:52:11 AM by Twolanerider »
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Re: "103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers post race summary
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2007, 07:09:43 AM »



Don

That sounds great!
The chart looks even better.
Being somewhat old school (yes I'm old) the 103's a still a huge motor.
My first hot rod Harley was a 98" Evo 3 5/8 X 4 3/4 in 86.
On your bike I was interested in the rideability and the torque.
At 119 square the #'s look great.
Look at the #'s on a Goldwing and I can assure you that tailights are all they will see.

As I tell Nancy all the time when you get a thousand harleys together most likely only about 50 will run really good.
And of those 50 maybe 25 will run as good as yours. Your work was not done to please anyone else but with your end result I hope you are proud of the way it runs!

Thanks for the report!

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Twolanerider

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Re: "103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers post race summary
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2007, 11:20:56 AM »

.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 12:51:16 AM by Twolanerider »
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CVOJOE

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Re: "103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers post race summary
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2007, 07:30:53 PM »

Looks Great Don!  :xyxthumbs: You noticed any difference in oil temperatures with the mods, or maybe it's not been warm enough your direction to do that eyeballing yet.
Joe
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Twolanerider

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Re: "103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers post race summary
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2007, 07:35:45 PM »

.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 12:51:54 AM by Twolanerider »
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TallyClassic

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Re: "103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers post race summary
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2007, 02:35:16 PM »

Outstanding comparison of the different mods and seeing where the performance of the bike was going.  Even more interesting is what a 'narrow' effect the 575 cam has on the 103's.  I expected way more!!  8 more lbs of torque is a pretty small gain when looking at the areas that you lose on......
I may have to re-evaluate my dreams for my SEEG.
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HWYMAN1

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Re: "103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers post race summary
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2007, 06:43:15 PM »

A couple of interesting comparative measures Joe.  I don't have an oil temp gauge intalled on the bike (wait 'til next weekend).  But have shot the rear jug with an IR gun. 

Right after the installation that included the Feuling pump, lifters etc I was measuring 10 degrees less shooting the same spot on the head.  Just better oil volume carrying it away better.

The number that was scary, however, was for the 110 guys.  While in Marrietta a few days ago Chief and I rode exactly the same trek at exactly the same time.  He then shot his bike and mine with exactly the same IR gun.  I was almost 100 degrees cooler.  It was like 220F against 310F if I remember right.  Scary stuff on that 110.  And that was a cool short evening ride.
Don,
As usual great information and comparitive charts. Having put the zipper 575 cam in I would have to say that it did not do as much as I thought (HP gains about 6, torque about 11), but could not agree more about the fueling oil pump,lifters,etc regard engine cooling. For engine longevity from keeping it cooler was a great investment ( stock after running engine about 238 degrees, with amsoil about 228 degrees, with oil pump and bypass shim about 215 to 218 degrees by temp gauge). John
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103 with zipper 575 GD cams
Bitubo rear shocks
Baker DD6 transmission
Traxxion dynamics front end
Stage 1 SE AC

Twolanerider

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Re: "103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers post race summary
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2007, 09:13:07 PM »

Don,
As usual great information and comparitive charts. Having put the zipper 575 cam in I would have to say that it did not do as much as I thought (HP gains about 6, torque about 11), but could not agree more about the fueling oil pump,lifters,etc regard engine cooling. For engine longevity from keeping it cooler was a great investment ( stock after running engine about 238 degrees, with amsoil about 228 degrees, with oil pump and bypass shim about 215 to 218 degrees by temp gauge). John

John, the gain that pleased me about the cams themselves wasn't so much the raw numbers but when those numbers hit.  Better torque more in the riding range.  Engine was much more suited to the bike's gearing and my riding style than it had been previously.

You're 100% right on the job though.  I did it as a prophylactic exercise.  Was losing the tensioners and gaining the better oiling system.  Any performance increase was mostly gravy.  That the bike was better riding with the available torque in a better RPM range was a happy side benefit.  But never the primary reason (for me) for doing that job.
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HWYMAN1

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Re: "103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers post race summary
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2007, 06:59:17 PM »

The "kit" work supplied by Zippers includes a pair of Harley branded pistons (22484-04) that are .005" oversized to our stock bores and in conjuction with the work they do to our stock cylinder heads raise the CR to 10.5:1.  With even a hot engine our high torque starters handle this CR without compression releases.  I didn't want compression releases.  So a package that stopped where this did was a real consideration for me.

They do rework the heads.  Slightly larger valves.  Reworked combustion chambers.  Etc etc etc.  In my case the final hone and fitment of pistons to cylinders was beautifully and perfectly done.  Final quality of work on the cylinder heads was something less than that.  Enough so that I followed up a bit here to finish what they'd started.  It was all good before it went on the bike though.

Cam in this package is Zippers 657 and also included in the kit is their 50 mm throttle body and intake manifold along with their air cleaner to mate to the package (note, the intake manifold mounting flange won't accept standard Delphi mount air cleaner mounts anymore).  Went with gear drive cams.  Feuling pump, Feuling lifters, Feuling cam plate, Zippers Pro-Taper pushrods.  Also used their Thundermax ECM with the autotune kit added on to it.  Only other hardware used (that I can think of right now) was a Doherty Myst-Free breather kit and the GP Designs outer bearing support.
Don,
was re reading your post on this (as I said had 575, oil pump, lifters etc, V&H true duals, PCIII and got numbers similar to your first dyno run).  Was looking for more torque. I like the numbers you got but am reluctant to change engine alot . you said the cylinder heads weren't quite right-how so? How long did it take for them to complete the job? Do you remember a ballpark $ on job? Trying to balance this vs. cost of say D&D fatcat 2:1 with torque increase or put the money into getting the overall performance from engine upgrade. This is what my winter project will be after football season is over. Any help is greatly appreciated!  John  I guess in the end what I am trying to avoid is " the enemy of good is better" :)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 07:01:35 PM by otophile »
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Rinehart TD
103 with zipper 575 GD cams
Bitubo rear shocks
Baker DD6 transmission
Traxxion dynamics front end
Stage 1 SE AC

Twolanerider

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Re: "103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers post race summary
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2007, 09:52:47 PM »

Don,
was re reading your post on this (as I said had 575, oil pump, lifters etc, V&H true duals, PCIII and got numbers similar to your first dyno run).  Was looking for more torque. I like the numbers you got but am reluctant to change engine alot . you said the cylinder heads weren't quite right-how so? How long did it take for them to complete the job? Do you remember a ballpark $ on job? Trying to balance this vs. cost of say D&D fatcat 2:1 with torque increase or put the money into getting the overall performance from engine upgrade. This is what my winter project will be after football season is over. Any help is greatly appreciated!  John  I guess in the end what I am trying to avoid is " the enemy of good is better" :)


Oh boy....   John, I try to generally avoid much of the he said/she said that becomes concomitant to discussing the problems that were had.  There are two side to all such discourses of course.  And some are just almost religiously for or against a particular vendor.  So it's difficult to ever have a discussion without it becoming an interrogation or a sermon.  Having said that; here's what I ran in to in my work with Zippers.

The two problems with Zippers were their inability to meet (redundantly) their own suggested deadlines as to supply and the quality of the final machine work on the cylinder heads.

They were never hesitant to make promises as to when to expect parts to be available or be shipped.  They were in fact willing to happily make such promises repetitively.  That the promises had no basis in reality was the problem.  Eventually they learned that it was better just to say "sorry, I just don't know yet, but we really are trying."  But it took them a long while to understand that reality rather than hyperbole was truly the more desirable tack.

That was the nuisance.  The annoyance.  The bothersome part of working with them.  Had everything else been ok that could have just been chalked off as yet another company getting in too deep; being too busy at a particular time to meet their demands.  You can accept that (once) and move on; if that's all it is.  Unfortunately it wasn't.

Their work on the cylinders seemed beautiful.  Fit was perfect.  No problem on the jugs or the mate of the jugs to the pistons.  Their work on the cylinder heads, however, was very very pedestrian. Average; at best. 

The final polishing work that I'd been told was part of the job simply wasn't.  In fact the surfaces looked like they'd not just come directly from the CNC machine.  But as if they'd come directly from the CNC machine with dull tools in use.  That was bad enough.  Worse, however, was that the valve job was just abysmal.  One cut (angle) on one exhaust valve.  Two valves set way way too deep.  Other issues as well.  Though I'm sure it will vitiate any "warranty" on the entirety of the job I might ever attempt to discuss with them I'll admit now I did the valve job over again before installing the heads.  It was just that bad.  And obviously so. 

Fortunately I'll never have to concern myself with their warranty.  They'll never lay machine or other tools on parts of mine ever again.  I very much like the Thundermax system with the autotune addition.  Definitely a fan of that system.  Would recommend without hesitation.  At least in my experience, however, the headwork looked like it came from an apprenctice machinist who didn't know a valve machine from a candy bar dispenser.

Unfortunately many would unpack the new pretty parts, say to themselves "oooh, new pretty parts" and simply never know nor recognize the difference.  They put it all together, or pay someone to and it would have started and ran.  Then in 10 or 12k miles they'd have burned a valve (or worse) and simply been left to wonder.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 12:54:05 AM by Twolanerider »
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Twolanerider

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Re: "103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers post race summary
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2007, 09:56:37 PM »

John, on the pricing I'll have to dig up the paperwork.  Simply not sure right now.  Zippers had the final billings so fouled up I never did know exactly what things should have actually cost.  We were fussing at that point and I got tired of screwing with it for the small amount that seemed like a remainder. 

I had costs for diamond cutting and powder coating work going on all at the same time.  So need to distinguish that from the machine works and parts supplied by Zippers.  I will say that I remember at the time that the costs were not abominable relative to the quality of work that was their reputation and their promise.  Had the work been as expected the price would have seemed certainly fair enough.  The trouble was their efforts simply did not come close to matching their reputation or promise. 

I'll try to find some firm numbers and let you know though.  Will post it here when I get a chance to dig them up.
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Re: "103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers post race summary
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2007, 08:15:00 AM »

Don,
thanks for all the info. Like many am trying get most for dollar in upgrades. Liked the numbers the 103 muscle kit had, but after reading your commentary ( as well as others abouth Zippers over promise under deliver), I am not I have the time nor patience to deal with problems. Like you also said I would not know if it was done correctly or not as to what to expect ( hopefully mechanic I use putting everything back together would though!). That was also reason for question on ballpark $ for change, if couple $K not sure that a novice like me should attempt, and then should look for other means to tweak out some more torque ( as an aside I love the 103 don't need bigger and ride similar to what you often describe).  keep up the good work, John
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103 with zipper 575 GD cams
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Re: "103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers post race summary
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2007, 02:41:23 PM »

Don I am so glad you are pleased with the final product. As I told you I am happy with the 113 they did on my bike. The ride is unbelievable. It has all the power you could want and it still looks stock. I can't wait till I get the AT setup on the bike. Along with all of the other stuff I have picked up over the winter.

Keep us posted

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Twolanerider

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Re: "103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers post race summary
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2007, 02:51:32 PM »

Don,
thanks for all the info. Like many am trying get most for dollar in upgrades. Liked the numbers the 103 muscle kit had, but after reading your commentary ( as well as others abouth Zippers over promise under deliver), I am not I have the time nor patience to deal with problems. Like you also said I would not know if it was done correctly or not as to what to expect ( hopefully mechanic I use putting everything back together would though!). That was also reason for question on ballpark $ for change, if couple $K not sure that a novice like me should attempt, and then should look for other means to tweak out some more torque ( as an aside I love the 103 don't need bigger and ride similar to what you often describe).  keep up the good work, John

John, I have no doubt that some of their work is exceptional.  And that things go smoothly when they go smoothly.  Their problem seems to be, however, when things don't go smoothly.  Addressing delay or problem, in my case, seemed to be met with (finally and perhaps out of frustration) just getting it out the door.  Even if it's understandable from a "human nature" perspective it's unfortunate and unacceptable from any other.

John, it was probably too strong of me to say I would "never" consider them again.  Any future consideration of their efforts, however, would have to be accompanied beforehand by a very pointed conversation about all expectations (work, time, etc).  Extra due diligence would be required to know that everything necessary wasn't just available but was in hand to meet supply promises and that time scheduled for work done was such that cutting a corner or responding out of frustration simply wouldn't be an option.  They very likely might not be willing to work under the kind of restrictions that conversation might suggest.  But given my own experience it would be a mandatory conversation.

As Mike (Dawg) suggested though the most important part now after the fact is that I'm happy with it.  It took extra effort on my part to get there.  And it really should not have.  Zippers doesn't get all the credit for my end-game satisfaction either.  But they do get some.  As some of what they did and what they supplied was perfectly satisfactory.  Like Mike's 113, I'm just enjoying riding the bike now.
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Re: "103 Muscle Kit" from Zippers post race summary
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2007, 05:47:12 PM »

John, I have no doubt that some of their work is exceptional.  And that things go smoothly when they go smoothly.  Their problem seems to be, however, when things don't go smoothly.  Addressing delay or problem, in my case, seemed to be met with (finally and perhaps out of frustration) just getting it out the door.  Even if it's understandable from a "human nature" perspective it's unfortunate and unacceptable from any other.

John, it was probably too strong of me to say I would "never" consider them again.  Any future consideration of their efforts, however, would have to be accompanied beforehand by a very pointed conversation about all expectations (work, time, etc).  Extra due diligence would be required to know that everything necessary wasn't just available but was in hand to meet supply promises and that time scheduled for work done was such that cutting a corner or responding out of frustration simply wouldn't be an option.  They very likely might not be willing to work under the kind of restrictions that conversation might suggest.  But given my own experience it would be a mandatory conversation.

As Mike (Dawg) suggested though the most important part now after the fact is that I'm happy with it.  It took extra effort on my part to get there.  And it really should not have.  Zippers doesn't get all the credit for my end-game satisfaction either.  But they do get some.  As some of what they did and what they supplied was perfectly satisfactory.  Like Mike's 113, I'm just enjoying riding the bike now.

AMEN BROTHER!!!!!

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