Topic: Mapping vs. fuel injection management system (Read 5853 times)

bigmanken · « **on:** January 23, 2006, 06:08:28 PM »

When I took delivery on the Haze in October, it was immediately obvious that the engine was indeed asthmatic and constipated (not to mention the exhaust sounded awful). I could only stand about 300 miles or so. Upon advice from my local tech shop (not the dealer) I have installed a Terry Components Terminal Velocity Fuel injection Management System along with Bassani slash cut slip on pipes.Also a K&N high flow air filter. I must say I am very happy with the results from the adjustments. I had an immediate increase in HP and Torque. The Bassani pipes sound great.

Now, my concern is that I have not seen any comments on closed loop fuel management. I realize that for most, the dyno mapping is probably a must for peak performance. For guys like me who just like to ride a responsive bike, it is not as critical. Can anyone share info about the fuel mamagement system pro's or con's. Have I bit off something I may regret later? Like I said I am super pleased at the moment (bottom line,I guess that is what it is all about).

Ironhorse · « **Reply #1 on:** January 24, 2006, 01:04:32 AM »

I have one on my bike too. It's not the Terry brand, but it's made by the guy that makes 'em for Terry. You are right on the money with your assessment. It's not a substitute for a spot on dyno tune, but it does what it's supposed to do, adjust the afr as needed under load and conditions. It adapts well to minor changes like pipes, and aircleaner, but my personal experience is that wholesale changes like heads, and cams, and displacement require a dyno tune. If you require further mapping changes, get an RT or PC.

grc · « **Reply #2 on:** January 24, 2006, 09:50:02 AM »

The closed loop systems still rely on a base map for fuel and ignition settings, and it is recommended that a new base map be built for modified engines. The A/F correction factor from the O² sensor is applied to the base map settings to achieve a target A/F, but the system works best when the corrections are relatively small.

IMHO, closed loop is the only way to fly.

Jerry

grc · « **Reply #3 on:** January 24, 2006, 10:33:57 AM »

One thing I don't understand about the Terry system is the dyno chart on their web site (see attachment). Look at the A/F portion of the chart. Looks like they are all over the place on A/F, which is just the opposite of what you would expect with a closed loop system. I noticed this once in the past, and thought about asking them to explain, but it slipped my mind.

Jerry

Ironhorse · « **Reply #4 on:** January 24, 2006, 07:18:48 PM »

Grc,

Looking at that dyno chart, I'm guessing that the red is pre Fuel Processor, and the blue is post. It actually looks a little like mine did after I did heads and cam.

If you look at my dyno sheet you will see the Fuel Processors limitations. I brought my bike back to the dyno shop to have the tune checked after heads and cam. The blue is before the dyno tune, and red is after. As you can tell, even with the Fuel Processor, my AFR was way off prior to the tune. However, when the Fuel Processor works with a good tune, the bike runs great!

bigmanken · « **Reply #5 on:** January 25, 2006, 03:55:24 PM »

Quote

One thing I don't understand about the Terry system is the dyno chart on their web site (see attachment).

CVOinLV · « **Reply #6 on:** January 26, 2006, 11:21:12 AM »

bigmanken

I have a close loop system from the Daytona Twin tech and I think that I will be pretty happy with it, just that I cannot get it tuned so that it starts and idles correctly. My problem is that it did not come with a map for the 103 and the company said to use the 95 map and adjust HP up until it starts and idles OK and then work an the alpha table. After several weeks of playing with it I still feel that it is all over the place for starting, idling, and AFR. Would you be willing to look and compare my map with yours or could you send me your map?
I would really appreciate either.
Thanks
CVOinLV

skidlyman · « **Reply #7 on:** January 28, 2006, 06:00:55 PM »

Quote

One thing I don't understand about the Terry system is the dyno chart on their web site (see attachment).

grc · « **Reply #8 on:** January 28, 2006, 09:08:18 PM »

Quote

Jerry,

skidlyman · « **Reply #9 on:** January 28, 2006, 11:31:35 PM »

i'm ready to change my stock system - exhaust, AC and EFI control and can't make up my mind which way to go. I've narrowed it down to about three differant setups, and need a little help deciding which one.

1) Rinehart true duals - SE AC or Big Sucker AC - Thundermax
( Zippers Zip Kit)

2) Rinehart true duals - SE AC or Big Sucker AC - Terrys Hyper Velocity II

3) Rinehart true duals - SE AC or Big Sucker AC - Power Commander

rrawtry · « **Reply #10 on:** January 29, 2006, 12:58:34 AM »

I own a 2005 FLHTCSE and have made some interesting mods that I am happy with.

1. Rinehart True Duals
2. Kuryakyn Hi 5 A/C Good for up to 130Hp it is really snug to the heads because it utilizes the top as well as sides of the filter(K&N).
3. Terry Components Terminal Velocity Closed Loop ( Constantly retunes).
4. Stage 2 Flash

Dynojet model 250 with real time gas analyzer
I get 104.2 tq and 100.00 hp @ 5th gear
I get 99.9 tq and 98.4 hp in 4th
My air fuel is almost constant and leans out between 5000 and 5500 RPM to about 13.8

I am so thrilled I could s**t. small second gear wheelies on a bagger are cool!! [smiley=jalapeno.gif]

rrawtry · « **Reply #11 on:** January 29, 2006, 01:03:10 AM »

As for the Terry dyno chart, My opinion is it was doing the best it could without any other mods or the other mods were not done correctly(lack of forethought). Bub Rinehart tech guys actually recommend the Terry Components and they install a bung in the pipe for it.

rrawtry · « **Reply #12 on:** January 29, 2006, 01:15:45 AM »

Sorry abou my three back to back posts, Just getting used to this new computer. Wanted to make sure I posted this dyno run scan to insure I wasn't blowing smoke.

grc · « **Reply #13 on:** January 29, 2006, 08:18:39 AM »

Now that is a good looking A/F chart. The point of my previous post was that you have to start out with a halfway decent map, and then the Terry unit can smooth and adjust it. It can't work miracles with a lousy base map.

Jerry

rrawtry · « **Reply #14 on:** January 29, 2006, 09:50:19 AM »

I concur with your opinion in your previous post as well. It takes a good base map, designed around a good breathing engine to produce optimum results. The 103 Harley engine is so confined due to E.P.A. regs that it cannot breathe. Set up correctly it is a monster. You should checkout www.kuryakyn.com and type "wild things" in the search engine. They have some interesting dyno stuff near the bottom of the page. they have some great engineering in a couple of set-ups they offer. [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

Ironhorse · « **Reply #15 on:** January 29, 2006, 10:27:06 AM »

Quote

i'm ready to change my stock system - exhaust, AC and EFI control and can't make up my mind which way to go. I've narrowed it down to about three differant setups, and need a little help deciding which one.

1) Rinehart true duals - SE AC or Big Sucker AC - Thundermax
( Zippers Zip Kit)

2) Rinehart true duals - SE AC or Big Sucker AC - Terrys Hyper Velocity II

3) Rinehart true duals - SE AC or Big Sucker AC - Power Commander

skidlyman · « **Reply #16 on:** February 04, 2006, 08:01:34 PM »

well, I went and did it ... ordered the Rinehart True duals, Ness Big Sucker Stage 1, and Terry's Terminal Velocity II
[smiley=banana.gif]
I talked to the dealer about a stage 1 recalibration and he just tried to sell me SE parts! :-/
I'm thinking I will install the exhaust and AC, then take it to them for the stage1 download, then take it home and install the Terrys fuel processor .... ride it for about a week and take it back and run a dyno on it.

Its a stock 2005 FLHPI, when I decide to go large, ( in a couple years) I can then get a SERT and dyno tune to get a better base map.

is this thinking ok?

rrawtry · « **Reply #17 on:** February 04, 2006, 08:09:01 PM »

[smiley=banana.gif] SOUNDS GREAT!!! HOPE IT WORKS WELL. KEEP US POSTED. AS YOU CAN SEE BY MY POSTS, I AM THRILLED. [smiley=jalapeno.gif]

skidlyman · « **Reply #18 on:** February 06, 2006, 11:17:29 PM »

Maybe someone can help me out here, I've been studying posts on differant boards and I'm getting a little apprehensive about using the Terrys Terminal velocity system. Maybe the Twinn Tec TCFI II instead. Trouble is the Terrys is on the way. Do you think if I go with the terminal Velocity II, I should put it on the Dyno before and after to assure that my AF are not too lean?

rrawtry · « **Reply #19 on:** February 06, 2006, 11:29:23 PM »

I could not be more thrilled with My Terry Components Terminal Velocity. Check my Dyno run in this thread. I studied long and hard before I made a decision and frankly, the constantly retuning terminal Velocity gave me some degree of comfort. I am a wrench turning fool with an A.S.E. Certification and it scared the crud out of me to have all the different tuning options on the other systems. My opnion is that if you think the Terry needs dyno runs to tweak, you aint seen nothin yet!!

BEAR

skidlyman · « **Reply #20 on:** February 07, 2006, 01:13:36 AM »

Bear,
Think I should go ahead and install the Terrys TVII and forget about having a stage I flash, and see what happens?

skidlyman · « **Reply #21 on:** February 07, 2006, 07:28:07 PM »

Quote

I could not be more thrilled with My Terry Components Terminal Velocity. Check my Dyno run in this thread. I studied long and hard before I made a decision and frankly, the constantly retuning terminal Velocity gave me some degree of comfort. I am a wrench turning fool with an A.S.E. Certification and it scared the crud out of me to have all the different tuning options on the other systems. My opnion is that if you think the Terry needs dyno runs to tweak, you aint seen nothin yet!!

BEAR

I mentioned the dyno runs before and after installation of the TTV, not to try and tweak it (because you can't), but to verify that the AF ratios are acceptable .... to keep the Dealer from trying to void warranties also

rrawtry · « **Reply #22 on:** February 07, 2006, 09:15:52 PM »

My air fuels were right on the money. However, any alteration to the engine or the ECM, including the SE Race Tuner can void your warranty. If you fear yhe warranty, do nothing to your bike that you cannot remove prior to taking it to the dealership for warranty service.
BEAR

skidlyman · « **Reply #23 on:** February 17, 2006, 12:51:06 PM »

update! I installed the Terrys Terminal Velocity II and the Big Sucker AC and the Rinehart Tru-Duals. Wow! I sure did feel the differance in torque and horspower, I'd like to dyno it soon to see the numbers, but .... so far i'm very impressed!
[smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
[smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=jalapeno.gif]

skippy49 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 17, 2006, 02:21:21 PM »

Glad to hear that. I'm thinking about trying one on my bike also. Either it or the Twin tech

rrawtry · « **Reply #25 on:** February 17, 2006, 03:27:19 PM »

Skiglyman,
I hate to say I told you, but I told you!!! Been able to get the front wheel in the air yet? Won't come up high, but anything on a bagger is high enough!!! Thanks for the update,
BEAR (rrawtry)

magicl1 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 17, 2006, 06:14:00 PM »

Quote

My air fuels were right on the money. However, any alteration to the engine or the ECM, including the SE Race Tuner can void your warranty. If you fear the warranty, do nothing to your bike that you cannot remove prior to taking it to the dealership for warranty service.
BEAR

Interesting comment. Have seen many different viewpoints... it is covered, it isn't, it is...
Well guess mine will be since the dealer installed one for free [smiley=banana.gif]to solve my cold start issue! Now, maybe it was the dealer's choice and not MOCO's. My sales manager was following up with them so they may have stepped up to the plate for a quick fix.

rrawtry · « **Reply #27 on:** February 17, 2006, 07:00:34 PM »

I wish I had your Dealer Maglc1,
I wonder if a magnacharger with dished pistons would drop the compression and solve the problem of oil blowby?(LOL) I was told by the two dealers I deal with with local that any change to the engine or electrical system which caused the bike to violate the E.P.A. regulations the bike was manufactured under violated the warranty as well. On my '03 FXDWG I was allowed a S.E. ignition and coil upgrade since it was mild and MOCO made, but my HSR 42 Mikuni carb needed to come off for any warranty work. The funny thing is that the setup I currently have has a better A/F Ratio and gas mileage.
BEAR [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

skippy49 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 18, 2006, 08:23:01 PM »

I finally got my Terminal Velocity installed and as far as I can tell so far, it's been a good choice for me. I also did a cam change to the S&S570 at the same time with a cometic .030 head gasket, but the bike runs great now. I'm not sure how much to attribute to the cam and how much to the TV unit, but it runs great and I didn't have to tune anything. I have an 03 SERK with factory 103, SE air cleaner (not the stock one-it's not really an SE unti) and Rinehart true duals. I was using a Techlusion DFO but removed it to install the TV unit. I have no dealer downloads to the ECM, but the TV unit seems to have been able to correct all of that. I only have about 35-40 miles on it so far (too cold) but it has improved a lot just in that amount of riding time.
When I first started it, it idled fairly poorly, but kept improving as it ran. Rode about 1 mile the first night and it wasn't too bad. Put another 12 or so on it and it got quite a bit better and today I managed about 17 miles more ( remember it's in the 30's here) and it seems to be running great. So as soon as it's warm enough to put some miles on it I really thing the Terminal Velocity will be a great addition. And no dyno tuning expense, and most likely very good tuning.
So far I'm happy and the install was pretty easy as I had the exhaust off anyway for the head gasket change, so it was easy to weld the bung in. As far as my experience so far, I'd buy another one rather than something else. Like I said, no downloads in the bike at all!!!

magicl1 · « **Reply #29 on:** March 20, 2006, 07:44:55 AM »

Quote

Put another 12 or so on it and it got quite a bit better and today I managed about 17 miles more ( remember it's in the 30's here)

skippy49 · « **Reply #30 on:** March 20, 2006, 08:04:46 AM »

The two local (within 35 miles) dealers don't even have a dyno. That's one of the reasons I wanted to avoid that.

bigmanken · « **Reply #31 on:** March 20, 2006, 06:51:20 PM »

Thanks to everyone for the great input on this thread!!!

Thought I would share a recent development with the Terminal Velocity unit...the haze developed a bit of a "cough" and some hard starts. I took it the the tech that installed the TV unit. He thought it might be the heat sensor, but turned out to be the O2 sensor monitoring the exhaust for the TV. He took it out and found corrison on the tip. After cleaning, she is running great.

Understanding that I live on the coast, and everything rusts, are there any comments about future prevention of this problem??

altugo · « **Reply #32 on:** March 20, 2006, 08:51:09 PM »

How do you install o2 sensor on exhaust pipes?I ordered thunderheader 2in1 do they come with o2 sensor?
Help apreciated
Thanx
Altug [smiley=drink.gif]

bigmanken · « **Reply #33 on:** March 20, 2006, 08:58:31 PM »

They took the pipe down to the local machine shop and welded a bung after drilling it. Then the sensor screws into the bung. It is my understanding that many of the new pipes from various vendors are coming with the bung. I am sorry I do not know about the pipe you are going with. You might check with them.

Ken

Author Topic: Mapping vs. fuel injection management system (Read 5853 times)