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CVO Technical => Milwaukee-Eight => Topic started by: Heatwave on June 28, 2017, 08:04:05 PM
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I figured I would start this thread for anyone dealing with an oil sumping issue related to the installation of a Stage 3 or 4 performance kit on a new M8 bike.
Here's my experience: Bought a new 2017 CVO Limited in Nov 2016. Rode it a 1000 miles home. Love the bike. Upgraded to Stage 3 in December. HD released stage 4 kit in late Jan 2017. I figured what the hell, I would have done the stage 4 in Dec had I known, so I upgraded the stage 3 with the larger injectors, CNC Ported heads, SE 515 cam and 64mm throttlebody.
The Stage 3 was a very strong upgrade over the stock bike. A little softer than I cared for below 2500rpms but above 2500 made up for it. I only had a couple hundred miles riding time on the Stage 3 before I upgraded to the stage 4.
The Stage 4 was great across the entire rpm. I was very pleased and felt it was even stronger after I had it tuned with a FM Jackpot headpipe.
I started getting miles on the build. (now at 5000 miles) At first everything was great but I noticed rising temps and decreasing performance the longer I rode the bike. More than an hour of riding and the fun would start "running out of the bike". It would get sluggish to the point that it couldn't get out of its own way. Like it was dragging an anchor. Let it sit overnight and the bike would be back to being a rocket....but only for an hour or so.
I took the bike to Laconia Bikeweek for a week of hard riding in the mountains. I also had another bike with me so I split the riding between the 2 bikes. One day I was riding the 2017 Stage 4 and it was incredibly powerful. Nice cool morning with 93 octane. It ripped through the mtn roads as I led a group of strong riders including a former motorcycle racer on a sport bike. Very hard running. (Separate note...bravo to HD on the suspension. SIGNIFICANT upgrade over my 2010 CVO Ultra suspension)
After this early morning run (45 mins), we pulled over and shut down for about 15 mins. Got back on the bike and headed out on another run. Bike was a dog. Like a completely different bike. No power, running hot, couldn't get out of its own way. No engine lights. 50% or more loss of power. I nurse it to a gas station and call the local HD dealer for advice. The local HD dealer had a dealer rep in house and said it sounded like a sumping issue.
He said to turn the fans on (wethead bike) and let the bike idle on the kickstand for a while. I had no idea what "awhile" was but I think I let it idle for about 10mins. He said the idling would allow the high-vol low pressure side of the oil pump to clear out the crank before I started riding again. Sure enough the bike was much "healthier" after I let it idle for a while before riding.
I dropped the bike off at my local dealer today for inspection and diagnosis. Dealer had already gotten a Reference # for service from HD. I just got word from the dealership that HD authorized the motor to be opened up to inspect the piston jets. They are also overnighting a new design oil pump that will be at the dealer tomorrow morning. Dealer says he'll know more after the engine is fully broken down and the new oil pump arrives. Currently the engine is partially opened up and no issues identified so far. Good to see the MoCo quickly on the case!
This might be a good thread for others with higher hp sumping issues on the new M8s to share their experiences.
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Wow...thank you for this. I went w/ the Stage IV after reading ur past posts. I got mine done at HD of Ocean County. Glad HD seemed to be taking care of it.
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Nice to hear that the problem has been identified and even better that Harley is stepping up!
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Hmm. Haven't noticed any issues with my stage 3, yet. Any idea about availability of this new pump or what the change was?
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Hmm. Haven't noticed any issues with my stage 3, yet. Any idea about availability of this new pump or what the change was?
What I heard is the new pump has a smaller orifice on the sump side of the pump that increases the velocity of the oil being removed from the crank. Thats all I have at this time.
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I was very pleased and felt it was even stronger after I had it tuned with a FM Jackpot headpipe.
great to hear that the moco is standing by you, especially with all the claims of warranty being voided by the above....
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I'd like to see what changes they've actually made to oil pumps. This would be the third iteration of the M8 oil pump in less than one year, which seems rather ridiculous to me. While it seems the scavenge side of the pump is not able to keep up in this particular situation, the real question is why? Does the 117 kit increase the amount of oil being pumped into the engine? Did they enlarge the piston cooling jets which would dump more oil into the sump? Or are the pumps being damaged by crankshaft runout issues? If you remember from other threads, many members have had low oil pressure issues that caused Harley to supposedly release a revised pump to fix that issue (no part number change so how does anyone know if they have the original or revised pump?).
Hopefully whatever they are doing to that pump they're sending to your dealer will fix your problem. I would just like to see what is really going on to require so many changes to a very simple component.
Jerry
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(no part number change so how does anyone know if they have the original or revised pump?).
Don't care what anecdotal stories have been shared second hand from service writers standing comfortably behind their service desks. Still don't believe even Harley issuing a parts revision without a new or revised part number. Only way you could even consider that would be to recall all existing stock first. Otherwise no way to know what's old and what's new on the shelf. Harley would do many things. I'll believe service writers telling pacifying stories before I'll believe the MoCo FUBAR-ing a volume and inventory control system like that.
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Dealership received new design oil pump overnight from HD today. After the bike sat overnight (cold) there was 13 ounces of oil in the crank case when the pulled the crank sensor.. Twice the amount there should be. Tech took it for a ride on the highway and some twisties but I doubt he was out for a hard 1hr ride. When he came back there was 12 ounces in the case. The dealership did not get the tear down fully completed today. Dealership understanding is that the sump side orifice has been made smaller on the new pump to increase velocity. They have a 2 step instruction from HD after teardown.
1) They have been instructed to take the engine down to inspect the oil jet screws. They are to set trq wrench to 20 in-lbs., if it turns than the screw has backed off. If they have backed off, they are instructed to remove oil jets, replace with new gaskets and retorque to 30 in-lbs.
2) Replace oil pump with new oil pump. If everything else looks good during disassembly, they are to reassemble and it should be ready to go. If all goes well, I should have bike back tomorrow (fingers crossed).
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Well things just got interesting. I spoke with my local HD shop this afternoon about my bike and also spoke directly with HD Corporate Tech Support.
The positives first. HD is standing behind everything and my local dealer has been great to work with as they have been for many years. My 2017 CVO Limited 117 Stage 4 engine was disassembled for inspection. Cylinder x-hatching looked good. The oil pump looked good. The oil pump O-rings looked good but now starts the more difficult news.
The piston oil jet screws were inspected for torque spec per the guidance from HD Tech support. The piston jet screws were definitely loose which I assume means more oil from both the nozzle tip AND around the jet gasket entered the crankcase at a higher rate than the oil pump is designed to remove from the crankcase. Which explains the excess oil measured in my crankcase. As the oil builds up, the crank is sloshing through more and more oil and there’s less and less oil for the oil pump to lift from the pan to the top of the engine.
Unfortunately, at this point the dealer tech described to HD Tech support that not only were the oil jet screws loose, but the crank and rods were “stiffer” to rotate than they should be. I had experienced high engine temps numerous times since the engine was upgraded to a stage 4 in Feb of this year although the oil jet screw issue appears to be unrelated to the Stage 4 kit. While there were no obvious signs of metal in the oil, HD tech support decided on-the-spot to replace the entire engine AND oil pan in the event there’s any bearing material starting to flow in the engine from the overheating. But that raises the next issue.
I have a Stage 4 kit on my current engine. Due to the crank and rod bearing concerns, they want to replace the entire Stage 4 kit once it comes off backorder. Harley agreed to pay all parts and labor costs for reinstalling the new Stage 4 kit. Until then, I’ll be back to riding a completely new stock CVO 114 engine.
Another issue is that I no longer have my stock throttlebody for the 114, since I upgraded to the Stage 4 Throttlebody. HD agreed to ensure the dealer has a stock 114 TB to install on the new long block/oil pan that is scheduled for delivery to my dealer next Wed.
I also spoke directly with HD Corporate Tech support. They were excellent to deal with and followed-up with my dealer regarding the stock TB and Stage 4 questions. They also informed me that the Stage 4 kits are scheduled to come off backorder mid-July. Dealer has already scheduled me for the Stage 4 upgrade on the new engine, fully covered by HD.
Good to see Harley responding promptly and with full accountability to make the bike as good as new. It’ll be just in time for a 7500mile trip to Sturgis at the end of July. Very interesting experience but I have no regrets on purchasing this new bike, even after this engine replacement. It really is a terrific machine. Hopefully these “M8 launch pains” are now in the rearview mirror!
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Really am just thinking out loud here. It almost feels like something doesn't quite pass the sniff test but have to admit I'm not really sure. The question that strikes me is:
How loose do the oil jet screws have to be to actually let significant oil bypass between the jets and the case? Then, if very loose, what kept them from vibrating on off and falling down inside?
Don't I remember reading another thread recently where someone found the same screw lodged in an oil pump?
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Really am just thinking out loud here. It almost feels like something doesn't quite pass the sniff test but have to admit I'm not really sure. The question that strikes me is:
How loose do the oil jet screws have to be to actually let significant oil bypass between the jets and the case? Then, if very loose, what kept them from vibrating on off and falling down inside?
Don't I remember reading another thread recently where someone found the same screw lodged in an oil pump?
Good questions but i don't have the answers. I don't know what "too loose" means other than less than 20in-lbs of trq on the oil jet base screws.
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Good questions but i don't have the answers. I don't know what "too loose" means other than less than 20in-lbs of trq on the oil jet base screws.
That's where my concern came from. Those screws obviously aren't that long. What is considered "tight" also isn't very much. If one thinks of inch pounds as the foot pounds they're more used to considering we're speaking of only slightly over one foot pound. In other words only barely more than finger tight and definitely less than one could do with something like a small thumb wheel ratchet or even just a socket in your fingers if you managed a good grip.
Given that oil pressure is constantly going to be vibrating the housing and pushing against it if it were looser than its only minimal version of "tight" to begin with it's just hard for me to imagine anything staying in place very long. Since you described the problem as somewhat ongoing it all just struck me as odd.
Hopefully the only thing that's important at this point is they're sorting it all and you're only going to be out a little time. Harley seems to be bending over backwards to make this right (the cynic in me also wonders about their motivation this but I'll not knock good fortune) so here's to it all happening easily and as efficiently as the process might allow. :drink:
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That's where my concern came from. Those screws obviously aren't that long. What is considered "tight" also isn't very much. If one thinks of inch pounds as the foot pounds they're more used to considering we're speaking of only slightly over one foot pound. In other words only barely more than finger tight and definitely less than one could do with something like a small thumb wheel ratchet or even just a socket in your fingers if you managed a good grip.
Given that oil pressure is constantly going to be vibrating the housing and pushing against it if it were looser than its only minimal version of "tight" to begin with it's just hard for me to imagine anything staying in place very long. Since you described the problem as somewhat ongoing it all just struck me as odd.
Hopefully the only thing that's important at this point is they're sorting it all and you're only going to be out a little time. Harley seems to be bending over backwards to make this right (the cynic in me also wonders about their motivation this but I'll not knock good fortune) so here's to it all happening easily and as efficiently as the process might allow. :drink:
Couldn't agree more. I hope it all goes smoothly as well. One note on the screws. On another site it was referenced that these nozzles have a check valve that requires a certain pressure in the nozzle before it sprays. Is it possible that with a leaking gasket due to incorrect torque on the screws that the leaking oil prevents the nozzle from actually spraying up on the cylinder and instead just leaks down into the crankcase until much higher oil pressure at higher rpms?.
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Couldn't agree more. I hope it all goes smoothly as well. One note on the screws. On another site it was referenced that these nozzles have a check valve that requires a certain pressure in the nozzle before it sprays. Is it possible that with a leaking gasket due to incorrect torque on the screws that the leaking oil prevents the nozzle from actually spraying up on the cylinder and instead just leaks down into the crankcase until much higher oil pressure at higher rpms?.
Had actually wondered about if the nozzles themselves were even spraying or not if loose and, if so, if that might have had any impact on the potential heating you described. There's a lot going on there.....
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So this isn't a stage 3 or 4 issue, but a factory engine assembly issue... I think I'll call my buddy. He's the service manager at one of the local dealers and see if his shop has seen anything yet and if he wants to dissect mine before the Maggie Valley get together.
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So this isn't a stage 3 or 4 issue, but a factory engine assembly issue... I think I'll call my buddy. He's the service manager at one of the local dealers and see if his shop has seen anything yet and if he wants to dissect mine before the Maggie Valley get together.
I hope you don't go through any extra expense based on my experience. If your bike is running well I'd recommend just enjoying the ride.
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So this isn't a stage 3 or 4 issue, but a factory engine assembly issue... I think I'll call my buddy. He's the service manager at one of the local dealers and see if his shop has seen anything yet and if he wants to dissect mine before the Maggie Valley get together.
That was another thought that came to mind with the latter part of the problem review. The factory tech support being so specific about checking such an unusual thing when that thing was seemingly separate and apart from the other upgrade work that was ostensibly being reviewed. That was what first caught my attention. That is what would have made me sniff harder.
It's so specific a suggestion to an unusual enough issue, and an issue that is extant to the rest of the work, that you can't help but ask the same question that went to the Nixon White House. What did they know and when did the know it?
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The cooling jets have a check valve that opens at 12 to 18 PSI. A cooling jet that is loose enough to leak oil would have two results. One is excess oil draining into the sump. The second is the piston skirts and piston pin would receive inadequate lubrication...
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I hope you don't go through any extra expense based on my experience. If your bike is running well I'd recommend just enjoying the ride.
No worries! I called and asked about any warranty repairs that they have had. Only oil lines and stereo stuff. They said they had done a ton of the 107/114 and 114/117 stage 3 and 4's, but none have come back for anything, yet. They did say they that if I wanted, I could bring it down and they would check it for sumping.
As for temps, when we were at the MITM, my Power Vision was typically showing 270-280 for engine temp and only once I saw it hit 290, but that only lasted for a couple minutes and it slowly went down in the low 280's.
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No worries! I called and asked about any warranty repairs that they have had. Only oil lines and stereo stuff. They said they had done a ton of the 107/114 and 114/117 stage 3 and 4's, but none have come back for anything, yet. They did say they that if I wanted, I could bring it down and they would check it for sumping.
As for temps, when we were at the MITM, my Power Vision was typically showing 270-280 for engine temp and only once I saw it hit 290, but that only lasted for a couple minutes and it slowly went down in the low 280's.
I think thats a very good strategy for inexpensively testing if you have a sumping issue. Ride the bike hard before dropping the bike at the dealer. Ask them not to idle the bike. Then pull the crank sensor and measure the oil that flows out of the crankcase. If more than 3-5 ounces flow out, you may have a sumping issue. Worth putting the sensor back in. Topping oil. Go for a ride and test how much oil in case a second time. If too much oil is confirmed a second time then there is a problem. Thats a very easy and low cost method to determine if the jets or oil pump are not functioning as designed. Nothing needs to be disassembled for this test.
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I think thats a very good strategy for inexpensively testing if you have a sumping issue. Ride the bike hard before dropping the bike at the dealer. Ask them not to idle the bike. Then pull the crank sensor and measure the oil that flows out of the crankcase. If more than 3-5 ounces flow out, you may have a sumping issue. Worth putting the sensor back in. Topping oil. Go for a ride and test how much oil in case a second time. If too much oil is confirmed a second time then there is a problem. Thats a very easy and low cost method to determine if the jets or oil pump are not functioning as designed. Nothing needs to be disassembled for this test.
I Rolled a 2017 107 out of the dyno room yesterday, then proceeded to change all the fluids. I pulled the crankcase drain plug and measured 8 oz. If your draining the crankcase oil from the CPS port, most likely leaving some behind as this is not the lowest area of the crankcase. Is 8 oz normal? I think so after just making a 100HP.
Steve@fullsac.com
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I Rolled a 2017 107 out of the dyno room yesterday, then proceeded to change all the fluids. I pulled the crankcase drain plug and measured 8 oz. If your draining the crankcase oil from the CPS port, most likely leaving some behind as this is not the lowest area of the crankcase. Is 8 oz normal? I think so after just making a 100HP.
Steve@fullsac.com
My dealer said 3-4 ounces would be considered normal and to spec. I'd check a few more times to confirm. BTW there's an SIP from Harley on Sumping with Stage 3/4 builds. #1450. Has anyone actually been able to read it?
FYI, HD now has 4 parts #s (I don't have them yet) for M8 oil pumps. 1 for stock 107 oil cooled M8. 1 for twin-cooled M8 114/107s. 1 for stage 3/4 107 oil-cooled M8s. 1 for stage 3/4 twin-cooled M8s.
My understanding is that the new M8 Stage 3/4 kits being released in mid-July will include the new "performance" oil pumps.
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No worries! I called and asked about any warranty repairs that they have had. Only oil lines and stereo stuff. They said they had done a ton of the 107/114 and 114/117 stage 3 and 4's, but none have come back for anything, yet. They did say they that if I wanted, I could bring it down and they would check it for sumping.
As for temps, when we were at the MITM, my Power Vision was typically showing 270-280 for engine temp and only once I saw it hit 290, but that only lasted for a couple minutes and it slowly went down in the low 280's.
Just to clarify is this oil temp or motor temp?
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Just to clarify is this oil temp or motor temp?
Engine temperature.
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Thanks. In 07 and 08 some of us had oil temps over 300 so you can just imagine what the motor temps were. :nervous:
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My dealer said 3-4 ounces would be considered normal and to spec. I'd check a few more times to confirm. BTW there's an SIP from Harley on Sumping with Stage 3/4 builds. #1450. Has anyone actually been able to read it?
FYI, HD now has 4 parts #s (I don't have them yet) for M8 oil pumps. 1 for stock 107 oil cooled M8. 1 for twin-cooled M8 114/107s. 1 for stage 3/4 107 oil-cooled M8s. 1 for stage 3/4 twin-cooled M8s.
My understanding is that the new M8 Stage 3/4 kits being released in mid-July will include the new "performance" oil pumps.
Three to four ounces was normal for the 2006 and earlier Twin Cams, but six to eight ounces was common after all the changes for 2007. At the time H-D of course claimed up to eight ounces was "normal", but at the same time they were lying about a lot of stuff like crank runout specs and other "inconsequential" stuff like that. Of course to get an accurate number you need to let the engine idle for a couple minutes before shutting the engine down, to let excess oil from the top end return to the sump and be returned to the pan. Shutting it down immediately after running at higher rpm's will leave an excessive amount in the engine and screw up the test.
Jerry
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My dealer said 3-4 ounces would be considered normal and to spec. I'd check a few more times to confirm. BTW there's an SIP from Harley on Sumping with Stage 3/4 builds. #1450. Has anyone actually been able to read it?
FYI, HD now has 4 parts #s (I don't have them yet) for M8 oil pumps. 1 for stock 107 oil cooled M8. 1 for twin-cooled M8 114/107s. 1 for stage 3/4 107 oil-cooled M8s. 1 for stage 3/4 twin-cooled M8s.
My understanding is that the new M8 Stage 3/4 kits being released in mid-July will include the new "performance" oil pumps.
Steve posted M1450 on the other site.
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I've got my new stock 114 engine back in the bike. I've got about 75 breakin miles on the new engine. Remarkable how good the stock engine is but that's comparing it to my Stage IV 117 with sumping issues. I now believe I had sumping issues from the time I took delivery. The new engine feels so effortless vs my old engine that was very powerful but only for about the 1st 20 miles than all the power (50%) was gone. For anyone that hasn't experienced sumping issues it can be very frustrating. the bike can be outstanding at first and then run like a dog.
Its great to be back on the new bike. HD is upgrading my new 114 engine to a new Stage IV kit as soon as they release them (they had a release date of 7/13/17). They covered all costs for the new engine and installation and all costs for the Stage IV including installation. In the event, you haven"t read the Service Bulletin on 2017 "Sumping Issues", here it is:
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Page 2
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page 3
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Well, I guess you can add me to the list. Been noticing higher temps while cruising and decided to check mine. Got 8 ounces out. Called the dealer, dropping it off tomorrow morning. :(
Chris
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page 3
Am I the only that reads that document as being company-speak for:
"There is a new oil pump we are supplying that we know (aka: hope to be) better. For the travel god's sake don't send your old ones back to us. We will reimburse you (at cost) for this new pump whenever you do a Stage III or Stage IV kit but (wink and a nod) you can probably charge the customer too. Most importantly, however, we know this new pump is better. However.... definitely use up all the old inventory in the system on everything we think we can sneak the old pump in to. When that old inventory is depleted we'll roll this new baby in to everything."
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Am I the only that reads that document as being company-speak for:
"There is a new oil pump we are supplying that we know (aka: hope to be) better. For the travel god's sake don't send your old ones back to us. We will reimburse you (at cost) for this new pump whenever you do a Stage III or Stage IV kit but (wink and a nod) you can probably charge the customer too. Most importantly, however, we know this new pump is better. However.... definitely use up all the old inventory in the system on everything we think we can sneak the old pump in to. When that old inventory is depleted we'll roll this new baby in to everything."
Yeah, pretty much.
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The new pump is no better. More to follow.....
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The new pump is no better. More to follow.....
Well crap.
Nota bene: :huepfenlol2:
Not this translation of corporate speak:
Am I the only that reads that document as being company-speak for:
"There is a new oil pump we are supplying that we know (aka: hope to be) better. For the travel god's sake don't send your old ones back to us. We will reimburse you (at cost) for this new pump whenever you do a Stage III or Stage IV kit but (wink and a nod) you can probably charge the customer too. Most importantly, however, we know this new pump is better. However.... definitely use up all the old inventory in the system on everything we think we can sneak the old pump in to. When that old inventory is depleted we'll roll this new baby in to everything."
But instead this translation:
"There is a new oil pump we are supplying that we don't really know (aka: hope to be) is better. For the travel god's sake don't send your old ones back to us because they're probably not any better than the new junk we're trying anyway. We will reimburse you (at cost) for this new pump whenever you do a Stage III or Stage IV kit but (wink and a nod) you can probably charge the customer too and then hit him again when the replacement for the revision of the replacement is finally released in a couple years. Most importantly, however, we don't have a clue if this new pump is better. However.... definitely use up all the old inventory in the system on everything we think we can sneak the old pump in to. When that old inventory is depleted and we've also used up this revision to placate the ignorant customes for now maybe then we'll finally have something good enough to in to everything."
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The new pump is no better. More to follow.....
Damn.
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Am I the only that reads that document as being company-speak for:
"There is a new oil pump we are supplying that we know (aka: hope to be) better. For the travel god's sake don't send your old ones back to us. We will reimburse you (at cost) for this new pump whenever you do a Stage III or Stage IV kit but (wink and a nod) you can probably charge the customer too. Most importantly, however, we know this new pump is better. However.... definitely use up all the old inventory in the system on everything we think we can sneak the old pump in to. When that old inventory is depleted we'll roll this new baby in to everything."
And some people were crazy enough to think the introduction of the M8 had heralded in a new and better corporate mindset, finally committed to do things right the first time, make the customer king, and step up to do the right thing when stuff happens. And now we see the warts are still there, and the reality is still the same. They don't get it right the first (or second, or sometimes the third) time. They also still don't step up proactively and fix ALL affected bikes, but just stick their heads in the sand and wait for the customers to experience issues and failures.
How hard is it to produce a friggin' oil pump? This is basic stuff, no rocket science required.
Jerry
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And some people were crazy enough to think the introduction of the M8 had heralded in a new and better corporate mindset, finally committed to do things right the first time, make the customer king, and step up to do the right thing when stuff happens. And now we see the warts are still there, and the reality is still the same. They don't get it right the first (or second, or sometimes the third) time. They also still don't step up proactively and fix ALL affected bikes, but just stick their heads in the sand and wait for the customers to experience issues and failures.
How hard is it to produce a friggin' oil pump? This is basic stuff, no rocket science required.
Jerry
About as hard to produce a master cylinder. Or a compensator. Or keep head gaskets intact. And on and on...
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Guys, here's my simple test to determine if you have a sumping issue with your new M8 engine (assume its broken in). Its not difficult but it takes about an hour.
- Check your oil dipstick at home with the engine warm. Take a picture.
- Take your M8 bike to a highway near your dealer.
- Ride 20 miles on the highway at normal highway speeds (70-75) away from your dealer.
- Turn around and ride 20 miles at highway speeds back to the dealer.
- Park the bike near the Dealer Service entrance
- Let the dealer check the oil dipstick first. If its alot lower than when you left home...take a picture.
- Let the dealer move the bike into the shop to pull the Crank Position Sensor to measure the oil in the crankcase. Ask if you can watch.
- if you have 3 ounces (or less) of oil that comes out, you're good to go. Go ride and enjoy the bike with confidence.
- If you have just a little more (a few more ounces), you may be OK.
- If you have ALOT more, you probably have a serious engine issue and the dealer will need to follow SB1450 instructions.
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That was another thought that came to mind with the latter part of the problem review. The factory tech support being so specific about checking such an unusual thing when that thing was seemingly separate and apart from the other upgrade work that was ostensibly being reviewed. That was what first caught my attention. That is what would have made me sniff harder.
It's so specific a suggestion to an unusual enough issue, and an issue that is extant to the rest of the work, that you can't help but ask the same question that went to the Nixon White House. What did they know and when did the know it?
The above Nixon White House analogy was spot on. I've got a sneaking suspicion that most/all M8's are going to have this problem and the MoCo discovered it early-on. Many that don't ride much, or hard, will not notice a power loss. So, with this in mind, HD bean-counters hope M8 owners will not realize a problem until they're out of the warranty period. Further speculation - this will never be a recall issue because it'll cost too much.
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I ride a bit, have over 18K on my 17 SESG. So far I have not noticed a loss of power. I have done several 600 mile days at 75~80 mph. Not saying it will not happen, and I am watching for it. Bike is pretty much stock except fullsac 2.25 cores.
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I ride a bit, have over 18K on my 17 SESG. So far I have not noticed a loss of power. I have done several 600 mile days at 75~80 mph. Not saying it will not happen, and I am watching for it. Bike is pretty much stock except fullsac 2.25 cores.
18K already Dave? You must be retired! :2vrolijk_21:
I just got back from a 4300 mile 10 state ride on my 2017. A few 600 mile days, and one 700 miler in under 10 hours.
Miles and miles of cruise set over 90 mph. And for the record, my crank run out is .006, not quite oil pump friendly.
Zero issues with anything.
You guys need to stop all this doom and gloom stuff, your going to jinx me and Dave!
Steve
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18K already Dave? You must be retired! :2vrolijk_21:
I just got back from a 4300 mile 10 state ride on my 2017. A few 600 mile days, and one 700 miler in under 10 hours.
Miles and miles of cruise set over 90 mph. And for the record, my crank run out is .006, not quite oil pump friendly.
Zero issues with anything.
You guys need to stop all this doom and gloom stuff, your going to jinx me and Dave!
Steve
Just curious what you're seeing for fuel mileage/range with the new engine at the higher speeds. My '15 drops like a rock above 70 and goes down into the 20's if I set the cruise at 85. I'm just wondering if the new engine is more tolerant of the higher loads?
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Just curious what you're seeing for fuel mileage/range with the new engine at the higher speeds. My '15 drops like a rock above 70 and goes down into the 20's if I set the cruise at 85. I'm just wondering if the new engine is more tolerant of the higher loads?
If I kept it to 75 for a whole tank it was right at 40. Start breaking 85 and it drops to the low 30s fast. Honestly, on the windy roads at those speeds where I really start to enjoy myself, I could care less what the milage is.
Steve@fullsac.com
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18K already Dave? You must be retired! :2vrolijk_21:
I just got back from a 4300 mile 10 state ride on my 2017. A few 600 mile days, and one 700 miler in under 10 hours.
Miles and miles of cruise set over 90 mph. And for the record, my crank run out is .006, not quite oil pump friendly.
Zero issues with anything.
You guys need to stop all this doom and gloom stuff, your going to jinx me and Dave!
Steve
Steve,
I work offshore, so I have a good schedule. I work 21 days, then get 21 days off. I loose a day of my off time traveling to and from work. The bad, at work its 13 hours a day, seven days a week, can't go home. The good, lots of time off.
I'm sure the bike will have over 21K on it before its a year old. My 15 had 24500 on it when it turned 1. Did a 6800 mile trip in 16 days on that one.
Just curious what you're seeing for fuel mileage/range with the new engine at the higher speeds. My '15 drops like a rock above 70 and goes down into the 20's if I set the cruise at 85. I'm just wondering if the new engine is more tolerant of the higher loads?
I get pretty good mpg. All back roads speeds 55 to 65 mph I average 47~48 mpg. Interstate with the speedometer at 80 mph, I get 43~44 mpg. My worst tank was 41.4 mpg. High wind, high speed and hills.
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Just back from Sturgis on my 2010 CVO Ultra which ran incredible. Simply remarkable 5600 mile trip around the Great Lakes and all the highlights of riding at Sturgis. On my return trip, I had multiple conversations with the HD Dealer Rep that inspected my 2017 CVO Limited with its 2nd engine that failed after sumping. The 2nd engine only had 500 miles on it. 200 miles were stock and 300miles were with the second stage 4 kit that MoCo paid to have installed. The second engine had 3qts of oil in the crankcase (yes, I said 3QTS out of the total 4qts in the engine - no engine lights at all) after about 50 highway miles at normal interstate speeds (70-80mph). Rods, pistons and crank were stiff after disassembly and inspection. Lifters were very black from overheating.
So HD's resolution was to authorize a 3rd 114 engine for my 2017 CVO Limited plus all installation costs. Plus a 3rd Stage 4 kit and all labor costs. Plus they are putting a 7 yr HD ESP with wheel and tire coverage on the ’17 bike at no charge. The new engine arrives on Monday. Plus they are sending one of the install engineers from Milwaukee to supervise the installation with the tech from my dealership. They also offered to give me full credit on the Stage 4 kit if I decided to go back to stock. I’m contemplating keeping it stock so I can trade it in for a new 2018 CVO Touring bike. Rumor has it HD may be going to a new monoshock frame that might mean larger saddlebags. If they launch a 2018 CVO RG Ultra, I’ll consider a trade-in on a 2018, then apply the credit for the stage 4 kit and apply the 7yr ESP to the new bike. Given the dealership has certainly made out well on all the engine replacements, they will hopefully consider a "thin" deal to get me into a new bike to keep me reasonably "whole". If the new 2018 bikes are nothing special, I’ll upgrade the ’17 bike back to the Stage 4 and run the crap out of it.
After the third engine, if I keep it and it fails again, I would pursue all my costs (minus the miles used) under NJ “lemon” laws which are some of the most consumer friendly in the US. Supposedly they’ve identified and corrected the sumping issue in the latest engines being shipped. Who knows?? The 2017 bike is terrific….when its running…. so we’ll see where this all ends up after the new 2018 bikes are announced on Aug 21.
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Thanks for sharing and the best of luck to you sir. :2vrolijk_21: It pays to have a backup bike at times like this.
Ride On
TN
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hope they get this lined out for you...and was it the pool boy that gave you the inside on the new frame set up for 18 :nixweiss:
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Out of curiosity, why would you stick your hand back in the snake hole after being bitten? I'm reminded of that axiom about insanity defined: "repeating the same behavior over and over, but expecting a different result." The 2017 was problematic, so you're considering a 2018? HD has "supposedly" fixed the sumping issue (just like they fixed the compensator, lifters, etc. on the 110?). Why would you consider purchasing another HD if you might have to invoke a lemon law on your current bike? I wish you all the luck in the world, but sometimes we need to step back and listen to ourselves.
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Out of curiosity, why would you stick your hand back in the snake hole after being bitten? I'm reminded of that axiom about insanity defined: "repeating the same behavior over and over, but expecting a different result." The 2017 was problematic, so you're considering a 2018? HD has "supposedly" fixed the sumping issue (just like they fixed the compensator, lifters, etc. on the 110?). Why would you consider purchasing another HD if you might have to invoke a lemon law on your current bike? I wish you all the luck in the world, but sometimes we need to step back and listen to ourselves.
Outstanding questions for sure!! I've looked at the Indian Roadmaster as well as the new 2018 Yamaha Star Venture Intercontinental. Both are very worthy contenders for alot less money and potentially higher value with more features.
In fact in stock mode, the Yamaha has all the torque and features of a CVO Limited WITH a Stage 4 kit. Plus it has electric power forward and reverse for parking. Plus a 5 yr warranty. Plus electric windshield and adjustable floorboards for taller riders. Plus its easily $20K less once you include the stage 4 kit in the price of the CVO. The only thing its missing is the liquid cooled heads. I sat on it and operated the electric parking assist. Outstanding design. I didn't have time for a test ride.
The Indian certainly stands out as "different" with beautiful paint. It was highly promoted at Sturgis. Even more so than HD. I even saw a show being filmed by the History Channel on the new Indian while I was at Sturgis. Its available with a stage 2 kit that gets the performance close to a CVO with stage 4 kit. Plus it has the backing of a well known, large, quality manufacturer in Polaris.
I checked out both bikes at Sturgis. But my money and riding legacy is currently invested in HD. Trade-in value at my local dealer (who has been very supportive through the entire fiasco) would be a major determining factor in staying with HD. But the biggest factor will be what HD launches for 2018 next Monday. If its just more of the same without trying to step ahead of the competition, than a "clear-eyed" decision will need to be made. Either way, I need to get this 2017 CVO fully operational with a new stock motor, the credit for the Stage 4 kit on my account plus the 7yr ESP applied to the bike and then I need to really consider the available options on the market. I would still be a Harley owner with my 2010 CVO Ultra but maybe its time to diversify the portfolio!!
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I also have a 2017 CVO streetglide, Harley stage 4 kit installed. My bike has been wet sumped 4 times. My local dealer that installed kit said he couldn't get it to do it. Couldn't drain any oil out. However every time I ride it wet sumps. I drained out 1-3/4 quarts of oil. My dealer is playing stupid. Anyone at Harley direct that I can speak to?
Any major damage to engine.
Should I demand a new engine right off the top. Or let them go thru the B/S.
I have been very patient with the dealer, also been watching this and the other thread for sometime now to try to see how to approach the next move?
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I also have a 2017 CVO streetglide, Harley stage 4 kit installed. My bike has been wet sumped 4 times. My local dealer that installed kit said he couldn't get it to do it. Couldn't drain any oil out. However every time I ride it wet sumps. I drained out 1-3/4 quarts of oil. My dealer is playing stupid. Anyone at Harley direct that I can speak to?
Any major damage to engine.
Should I demand a new engine right off the top. Or let them go thru the B/S.
I have been very patient with the dealer, also been watching this and the other thread for sometime now to try to see how to approach the next move?
Start at the dealer. Take the bike on the highway for 20-30 miles after its warmed up. Downshift for passing. Ride at highway speeds 70-80. Turn around and ride back to dealer directly. Ride the bike right to the service bay and ask them to to pull the Crank position sensor and measure the crankcase oil before the idling can remove the oil in the crankcase. If there's less than 3 oz, your bike isn't sumping. If it has more, tell them to read sb1450.
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I have tried that but every time I arrive at the dealer they don't make time for me to do it right away. I did record it this afternoon myself. I had almost 2-qts of oil drain out.
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I have tried that but every time I arrive at the dealer they don't make time for me to do it right away. I did record it this afternoon myself. I had almost 2-qts of oil drain out.
Do you have another dealer in your area?
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Kind of, but I passed on them to have this dealer do the install. Now they really don't want to help.
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Don't let the dealership jerk you around, go over their head and call Harley direct. The customer service phone number is in the owners manual, but I'll save you some time: 1-800-258-2464
Jerry
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any one have a stock motor that is sumping ? or is this only the motors with stage kits
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any one have a stock motor that is sumping ? or is this only the motors with stage kits
A 2017 RGS With only a stage 1 was reported today as having sumping:
"I have a stage 1 2017 RGS 11,000 miles purchased in Oct 2016 and the bike is at the dealer being evaluated under M1450 (I assume) They checked the level yesterday and counted 7 oz so they are now following the process. My issue was oil spray suddenly appearing on the front right exhaust and foot platform.
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I have tried that but every time I arrive at the dealer they don't make time for me to do it right away. I did record it this afternoon myself. I had almost 2-qts of oil drain out.
Video yourself checking the amount of oil that drains out, then contact HD, offer them the video and tell them the dealer is failing to honor your warranty.
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Do what Jerry says and document everything.
Best of luck harleytacticalnut
TN
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Luckily I did get a video of the 2-quarts that drained out. I was able to drop the bike off at the local dealer, showed them the video and they were floored.
Before I arrived at the dealer I called the phone number that was provided to me by help on this forum.
I quickly let them know that I have been watching this from a far on several forums and that I was sold this kit when harley knows they are having major issues with these stage 4 kits as it is a design problem with something.
I explained that I drank their kool-aid, paid for this upgrade with very hard earned cash money, not knowing they were having such major problems and that I am in no way shape or form interested in being a guinea pig going thru parts replacement, or having 3-4 engine swaps.
I explained I would accept a new engine to get my bike to original factory standards and to refund me for the stage 4 kit and all parts and pieces and labor involved.
I explained the bike is at the dealer right now and if they don't agree then I will leave it there and start working on a class action suit if needed because they are cashing in on these upgrade kits knowing they are installing them in bikes that will then cause severe engine damage either now or down the road when the bikes are out of warranty and then the owner is buying a new $10,000 motor because of Harley's lack of true R&D for these kits.
I guess time will tell now. This is my second 17 CVO streetglide this year and am very upset with how harley keeps letting these kits get installed knowing there is a major problem.
I hope they step up a do what's right and correct the wrong they are doing before it taints the entire brand.
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The brand has been tainted for a long time, and this is far from the first time they have knowingly sold defective product. I was hoping new management would change the corporate mindset and start doing the right things, but history has taught me to hope for the best but expect the worst. They have a very long way to go before they could convince me things have really changed.
Good luck, and I hope they do right by you.
Jerry
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Luckily I did get a video of the 2-quarts that drained out. I was able to drop the bike off at the local dealer, showed them the video and they were floored.
Before I arrived at the dealer I called the phone number that was provided to me by help on this forum.
I quickly let them know that I have been watching this from a far on several forums and that I was sold this kit when harley knows they are having major issues with these stage 4 kits as it is a design problem with something.
I explained that I drank their kool-aid, paid for this upgrade with very hard earned cash money, not knowing they were having such major problems and that I am in no way shape or form interested in being a guinea pig going thru parts replacement, or having 3-4 engine swaps.
I explained I would accept a new engine to get my bike to original factory standards and to refund me for the stage 4 kit and all parts and pieces and labor involved.
I explained the bike is at the dealer right now and if they don't agree then I will leave it there and start working on a class action suit if needed because they are cashing in on these upgrade kits knowing they are installing them in bikes that will then cause severe engine damage either now or down the road when the bikes are out of warranty and then the owner is buying a new $10,000 motor because of Harley's lack of true R&D for these kits.
I guess time will tell now. This is my second 17 CVO streetglide this year and am very upset with how harley keeps letting these kits get installed knowing there is a major problem.
I hope they step up a do what's right and correct the wrong they are doing before it taints the entire brand.
Very sad. I was REALLY hoping this sumping issue was limited to a very few bikes of which I drew the unlucky straw that burned through 3 engines. But each day I see more guys posting their sumping engine failures. I'm starting to believe those that haven't had a failure with a stage 3/4 M8 engine are riding on borrowed time. I truly hope I'm wrong but the evidence is building that the design failure could be far more prevalent than anyone fully appreciates yet.
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Heatwave
I agree 100%. I knew something was happening to my bike but couldn't figure it out. I then ran across your posts. :orange:
Thanks bro
I also believe my bike was doing it from day one as well but I can't prove it.
I did notice something specific yesterday when I was riding.
I installed Dakota digital gauges on my cvo and was watching my oil temp while riding. It was steady from 180-190 degrees most of the time.
Then all of a sudden I noticed a lot more heat at my feet and legs and watched the engine oil temp rise to 200-210. Once she hit 210 the bike started stumping very noticeably.
Bike was running really hot for some reason and was like dragging a boat anchor.
I really don't believe this is a stage 4 problem. I think it is a different problem and when harley adds a stage 4 kit that will add a little more compression and is letting the engine open up more versus stock causing it to be much more noticeable.
This really sucks cause I got my annual tail of the dragon, Devil's Triangle, moonshiner's hill run next month.
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Thanks JERRY
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I just got word that a friend of mine with a '17 CVO SG and Stage 4 kit was just called this evening by his dealer to bring the bike in for an oil pump change. Is this the start of a "quiet" recall by the MoCo on all M8s with stage 3 or 4 kits??
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I just got word that a friend of mine with a '17 CVO SG and Stage 4 kit was just called this evening by his dealer to bring the bike in for an oil pump change. Is this the start of a "quiet" recall by the MoCo on all M8s with stage 3 or 4 kits??
It would be like H-D to try to keep it on the QT. Did this friend previously complain to this dealer, or did he get this call strictly out of the blue?
The auto industry has had it's "secret" warranties and programs and been nailed by the government and the legal profession in the past. I hope Harley doesn't think it can get away with a selective and secret program on this issue. These days it's harder to keep such things secret, thanks to the internet and forums like this one.
Jerry
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IDK because my dealer claims he called them a week or so ago and they told him if he can't duplicate the problem then they couldn't authorize any work period.
Someone was playing hardball with me and he claimed it was Harley today when I brought the bike to him with the video.
None the less I am not interested in a part replacement when my engine has run several times that low on oil. They will be fighting an uphill battle trying to part and piece these together for a temporary fix until they can get the bikes out of warranty with only one more riding season after this one.
I for one will not sit idle much longer.
I am very anxious to see how they respond.
The customer service rep wasn't the nicest when I explained to her the major problems.
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It would be like H-D to try to keep it on the QT. Did this friend previously complain to this dealer, or did he get this call strictly out of the blue?
The auto industry has had it's "secret" warranties and programs and been nailed by the government and the legal profession in the past. I hope Harley doesn't think it can get away with a selective and secret program on this issue. These days it's harder to keep such things secret, thanks to the internet and forums like this one.
Jerry
No, he never exoressed any issues with the bike but he's a very infrequent rider. Its a smart move to start getting these M8s with Stage 3/4 into the shop for an oil pump change before the engine loses a lifter or top end from excess heat caused by sumping.
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We're back to the oil pump change-out "solution"...but the part number is the same? Is the MoCo just swapping an original oil pump for another original pump? If so, it would appear they're limping the M-8 along for two years to escape the warranty period. Hopefully I'm wrong, but...
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We're back to the oil pump change-out "solution"...but the part number is the same? Is the MoCo just swapping an original oil pump for another original pump? If so, it would appear they're limping the M-8 along for two years to escape the warranty period. Hopefully I'm wrong, but...
Past history would indicate you are not wrong... :(
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In theory, they did issue different part numbers according to the service bulletin M-1450 that was floating around. Read that bulletin and then I'd love someone to explain to me why no other engine, from Harley or anyone else I know of, requires a different oil pump for slightly larger displacement versions of the same engine. The only valid reason I know of for having two different part numbers is for the difference between the water cooled engines and the oil cooled engines. This has all the earmarks of another Harley fiasco, brought to you by the "no engineering talent and don't want to spend the money to fix the REAL problem" MoCo.
Jerry
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Been following this thread and I'm confused by the bulletin posted by Jerry. It seems there are four parts numbers for oil pumps. Two original pumps and two new pumps for stage 3 and 4 builds. Is that right?
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Been following this thread and I'm confused by the bulletin posted by Jerry. It seems there are four parts numbers for oil pumps. Two original pumps and two new pumps for stage 3 and 4 builds. Is that right?
So far that's right, but considering the fact they've had failures with the "updated" part numbers I guess we will be seeing a couple more in the near future. Total BS.
The reason for having two different versions (not four or six) is due to differences in the designs for water cooled models versus oil cooled models. That I can understand. But having additional part numbers for modified pumps to supposedly fix a sumping problem on slightly larger displacement versions of the same engines is ridiculous. That has never been the case in previous years, with the same pumps working just fine in everything from a stock TC88/TC96 to a CVO110 and aftermarket 124's. There is obviously a problem, but I'm convinced H-D hasn't got a clue what is really causing it (or they do and don't want to pay to fix it properly).
JMHO - Jerry
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Based on what I've read here it sounds like a pick up issue, the rotary oil pump design is proven and I can't imagine they could actually mess that up, but it is HD, they could mess up a wet dream. Makes absolutely zero sense that changing displacement creates the issue though.
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Why are we not hearing about more of these bikes sumping with aftermarket stage 4 kits?
Is that they already voided their warranty and they are eating crow or is this just attributed to the harley stage 3 & 4 kits?
Why aren't people like fuel moto, star racing, fullsac having sumping issues?
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So....the difference in all these oil pumps is a change to the design of the pump housing??? The MOCO technical bulletin indicates the existing gerotors are used in the "new pump".
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I have run my stage 3 for 10000 miles with no issues
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I have run my stage 3 for 10000 miles with no issues
You, like myself must have tight under the piston oil squirters. Rumor from a good source has witnessed the piston oil squirters coming loose allowing an excessive amount of oil to bypass the jet and flow directly into the crankcase, overwhelming the scavenge pump. Anybody with the barrels off, might be well advised to remove and reinstall the squirters with locktight. But it's just a rumor, one that makes a whole lot of sense.
Steve@fullsac.com
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Steve,
Do you think that's what has happened to my bike?
I drained out 2 qts of oil, bike was running very hot.
I wonder how much damage could be done to the engine run like that on the crank side?
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You, like myself must have tight under the piston oil squirters. Rumor from a good source has witnessed the piston oil squirters coming loose allowing an excessive amount of oil to bypass the jet and flow directly into the crankcase, overwhelming the scavenge pump. Anybody with the barrels off, might be well advised to remove and reinstall the squirters with locktight. But it's just a rumor, one that makes a whole lot of sense.
Steve@fullsac.com
And starving the lifters!
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Steve,
Do you think that's what has happened to my bike?
I drained out 2 qts of oil, bike was running very hot.
I wonder how much damage could be done to the engine run like that on the crank side?
Maybe? I have a few thoughts. And I only share these after my friend discovered loose sqirters in a motor that was sumping and I did a little thinking about it. Certainly not claiming I have the cure to anything. So, the percentage of 2017s with the sumping issue is very low. I do not believe the addition a few SE parts has anything to do with the oiling system working as designed or not. If I'm wrong that's fine, I do like to learn new things. If there was an oil pump design flaw the number of effected biked would be through the roof. The piston oil squirter is fed by a galley that runs to the lifters and up to the top end. Point is there is a lot of available oil under that little guy. If its loose allowing the oil to bypass the jet there is a substantial supply available. Here's a few fun facts about oil, viscosity and pressure. Cold motor, thick oil, high oil pressure. Hot engine, thin oil, low pressure. Sure, everybody knows this, but not everyone knows why the pressure change is so great. Thick oil is hard to push through small places. The oil pump has clearances that are sealed better by thick oil allowing it be more efficient. The thick oil creates more resistance going through the motor, both make for more oil pressure. Now lets assume we have a loose oil squirter that is bypassing oil into the bottom. When the oil is thick how much can get through compared to when the oil is hot? The scavenge pump is at its best when the oil is thick to keep up with the leak. Now lets go to 300 degree water thin oil. Our oil squirter leak just quadrupled and our scavenge pump has lost efficiency with the thinner viscosity. Kinda follows the pattern of everything going to hell when the bike got good and warmed up. Again,not claiming I know anything, just sharing a few thoughts about the situation.
Steve@fullsac.com
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And starving the lifters!
Big time! :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
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Brother it sounds very logical.
I have had the same thought about the oil pump issue. It would be much more wide spread.
Can I ask if you know if Harley actually makes all the engines in house or are they sub-contracting these engines.
If they are sub-contracting some if not all, this is why we may be dealing with an isolated situation by a certain assembler, or contractor.
IDK?
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Brother it sounds very logical.
I have had the same thought about the oil pump issue. It would be much more wide spread.
Can I ask if you know if Harley actually makes all the engines in house or are they sub-contracting these engines.
If they are sub-contracting some if not all, this is why we may be dealing with an isolated situation by a certain assembler, or contractor.
IDK?
I have no idea about sub contractors ect. I do know the squirter is fragile and minimaly attached. I have a 120 kit install coming up. I will get some personal experience with it at that time.
Steve@fullsac.com
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So if they tear down the upper and either find damage or not to the upper end, will they be able to see what kind of damage to the lower end if any could have happened with 2 qts of oil migrated down there with very high temps?
Will they be able to tear down the lower end to verify any damage already done?
If so what should I be looking for them to tell me?
If not I want to see if I get B/S
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I decided to wait until the release of the '18 bikes before taking the next step on my '17 CVO Limited. After 2 failed engines due to Stage 4 sumping and the install of my 3rd new 114 engine I've made my next decision. Personally I don't care for the '18 paint or the transition to the "murdered" look of the new bikes. Dropping the CB and raising the prices $2k for the CVO Limited and $3k for the Anniversary makes staying with my '17 CVO Limited a VERY easy call. Plus HD put a 7yr ESP with Wheel & Tire coverage on the bike for my troubles.
So now its time to reupgrade the new engine back to a 117 Stage 4. The parts were ordered but interestingly the dealer says there's a 2 week lead time and the kit now includes a hi-perf oil pump.
If the parts arrive next week, my '17 CVO Limited goes back to stage 4 performance. We'll see if the latest M8 engine with latest stage 4 kit does the trick.
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So the motor company knowingly has a problem with the m8 and the stage 3 & 4 kits causing sumping .
They continue to sell the stage 3 & 4 upgrade product knowing that there could be an issue of engine damage when installed and they can't figure it out. They are now on a revision 3 oil pump as a cure even though I have heard that is not a permanent fix either.
Sounds like a class action in the making for those of us that bought the kool-aid for a $37,000 bike then invested in their factory upgrades during the 60 day initial purchase.
What really pisses me off is they are putting a factory m8- 117 in the 2018 CVO STREET GLIDE.
Really?
Do they really have the issue fixed and are producing factory 117 engines, but are leaving us consumers with the aftermath of being their guinea pigs and still sticking it to us consumers with B/S repairs on their 2017 m8 with stage 3 & 4 until the warranty expires?
That takes a lot of balls :soapbox:
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So if they tear down the upper and either find damage or not to the upper end, will they be able to see what kind of damage to the lower end if any could have happened with 2 qts of oil migrated down there with very high temps?
Will they be able to tear down the lower end to verify any damage already done?
If so what should I be looking for them to tell me?
If not I want to see if I get B/S
Any decent mechanic can find damage when it's tore down if there is any. Its hard for me to imagine a crank drowned in oil getting hurt. I personally seen a twin cam get hot enough to melt the cam sensor off the side of the case. That's when it stopped running. Zero damage to the crank, but the bore was done and very obvious to see.
Good luck with it.
Steve@fullsac.com
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Any decent mechanic can find damage when it's tore down if there is any. Its hard for me to imagine a crank drowned in oil getting hurt. I personally seen a twin cam get hot enough to melt the cam sensor off the side of the case. That's when it stopped running. Zero damage to the crank, but the bore was done and very obvious to see.
Good luck with it.
Steve@fullsac.com
If you're having trouble imagining a seized M8 engine due to a crank drowning in oil, just check out this video of boiling Syn 3 pouring from my crankcase. I was a few miles from seizing according to tech. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B34U6UTlj03uSE9MMF9ZU2NIT1k/view
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Damn looks just like what mine did
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If you're having trouble imagining a seized M8 engine due to a crank drowning in oil, just check out this video of boiling Syn 3 pouring from my crankcase. I was a few miles from seizing according to tech. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B34U6UTlj03uSE9MMF9ZU2NIT1k/view
They do get very very hot when forced to run with a crank case full of oil. That is a fact.
Steve@fullsac.com
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They do get very very hot when forced to run with a crank case full of oil. That is a fact.
Steve@fullsac.com
Crank and rods were EXTREMELY tight after that heat and the lifters were also very burned up and close to failure. Most surprising part was neither the engine light or oil light came on. Shop was surprised i was even able to ride it in.
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That is unbelievable!
BigLew
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Sooooo on page 612 of the new parts book they have listed a billet support plate and a high flow pump kit...for around $900 uninstalled. Hmmm. Is this HD's answer to the sumping issue? And we the consumer have to pay for their fix to a design screw up? What say you?
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Never mind....for twin cam. My dumb a** mistake!
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Just got a call from the local dealer. They are coming to pick up my 17 CVO SG with the stage 4 kit to do the SB1450 deal from HD. HD pays them for 8 hours as they tear down basically the whole top end to check for scoring, ect. and then replace the oil pump. Got to say that my local dealer was on top of this and initiated the recall. Not terribly happy about having my motor tore apart again but have confidence in the wrench to do it right. Just FYI the bike has a fullsac system and is tuned with a TTS. Not an issue in this dealers mind. Hmmmm.
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Just got a call from the local dealer. They are coming to pick up my 17 CVO SG with the stage 4 kit to do the SB1450 deal from HD. HD pays them for 8 hours as they tear down basically the whole top end to check for scoring, ect. and then replace the oil pump. Got to say that my local dealer was on top of this and initiated the recall. Not terribly happy about having my motor tore apart again but have confidence in the wrench to do it right. Just FYI the bike has a fullsac system and is tuned with a TTS. Not an issue in this dealers mind. Hmmmm.
Did dealer test for sumping and found it to be doing so, thats the reason for the tear down?
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No, according to what was relayed to me it was a preventive measure due to the stage 4 kit that they installed. I guess HD is taking the position that it is cheaper to prevent issues before they occur rather than fix the damage if it does happen. At least that is my take on it. But I have been wrong once or twice before...
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Maybe? I have a few thoughts. And I only share these after my friend discovered loose sqirters in a motor that was sumping and I did a little thinking about it. Certainly not claiming I have the cure to anything. So, the percentage of 2017s with the sumping issue is very low. I do not believe the addition a few SE parts has anything to do with the oiling system working as designed or not. If I'm wrong that's fine, I do like to learn new things. If there was an oil pump design flaw the number of effected biked would be through the roof. The piston oil squirter is fed by a galley that runs to the lifters and up to the top end. Point is there is a lot of available oil under that little guy. If its loose allowing the oil to bypass the jet there is a substantial supply available. Here's a few fun facts about oil, viscosity and pressure. Cold motor, thick oil, high oil pressure. Hot engine, thin oil, low pressure. Sure, everybody knows this, but not everyone knows why the pressure change is so great. Thick oil is hard to push through small places. The oil pump has clearances that are sealed better by thick oil allowing it be more efficient. The thick oil creates more resistance going through the motor, both make for more oil pressure. Now lets assume we have a loose oil squirter that is bypassing oil into the bottom. When the oil is thick how much can get through compared to when the oil is hot? The scavenge pump is at its best when the oil is thick to keep up with the leak. Now lets go to 300 degree water thin oil. Our oil squirter leak just quadrupled and our scavenge pump has lost efficiency with the thinner viscosity. Kinda follows the pattern of everything going to hell when the bike got good and warmed up.
This is the best theory I've read yet.
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Problem with this theory. My first M8 114 engine with stage 4 sumping failure was after 4800 miles. Squirters screws were below trq spec. Figured they leaked and overwhelmed oil sump capacity. But the second M8 114 stage 4 engine failed after 500 miles. Crankcase filled with 3qts. Screws on squirters were at 30inlbs per spec so they were not a factor. So I'm now clueless on whats causing the sumping other than a poor design or poor manufacturing of the oil pump. Now I'm on 3rd M8 114 engine and getting the stage 4 kit installed once again. New design oil pump is being hand delivered by MoCo dealer rep for next stage 4 install. We'll soon see how round 3 goes!
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Seems as you go up in displacement excess oil the crankcase becomes more of a problem. It's going to be real interesting to see what happens with the 2018 CVO's and the 117 engine!
I do not have a lot of faith that they have solve this issue yet.
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Only Harley could find a way to screw up something as simple as an oil pump. Perhaps it is well past time to get some help from people who actually know a ton about dry sump oiling systems, Porsche. If folks remember, it was Porsche that designed the V-Rod engine for Harley, since Harley didn't and doesn't have the talent to do it on their own.
As for displacement increases being a cause, I wonder why it hasn't been a problem when running the same oil pump on Twin Cams from 88 cubic inches up to 120 or 124 cubic inches.
Does anyone know if Harley changed the bypass system on the new engine? The old system just ran the oil back to the inlet side of the pump, which wasn't great for aeration of the oil. If they decided to dump the excess oil back to the tank/pan by way of the scavenge side of the pump, I could see where that could back up the oil in the sump if they didn't make the scavenge side large enough. :nixweiss: Just thinking out loud.
Jerry
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Just found out the MY18 - 117" is not liquid cooled.
Very interesting.
Why not?
More issues that we do not know about?
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I don't know what harley is up to, but I bet everyone will be enlightened when they have sold most of the MY17 CVO bikes. And the focus will then be on the MY18.
Great diversion tactic.
They can't afford a major recall on the engines or kits and then put pressure on the remaining inventory of MY17 CVO still on the dealers floor. Especially since this is imploding on the new release of the MY18.
They then add the troublesome design to the MY18 bike but then removes the liquid cooling side of the engine which they were touting to be the next best thing.
There sure seems to be a lot of very deceptive meetings behind closed doors to keep this all hush , hush from the consumers it seems to me.
They could be facing a devastating economic impact from this if they continue to have this kind of business model moving forward.
I have contacted Harley 4 times and still no great response from them or the dealer as of yet and my bike is still there.
Consumers affairs was supposed to contact the dealer and send a rep out but I have heard nothing yet.
Bro I am beginning to lose it now.
I am trying to maintain my patience because my local dealer has lost the service manager who was supposed to verify from HD any issues with stage 4 before we proceeded- obviously he didn't, sales manager, general manager, finance manager all within the last few weeks and I am stuck with a POS right now with no one to get a definitive answer from on this.
Shady paperwork trails, I put 12k straight up on my bike in accessories to blacken it out from front to back as well as the stage 4 kit. And I am left with a bike that I have ridden 12-15 times since owning it on 6/3/2017 and it has sumped 6 of those times.
And now I have a very shifty situation with my local installing dealer.
I am going to call them Monday again for the 5th time and give them an ultimatum that if I do not hear from someone from corporate by this coming Wednesday I will be contacting some good ole boys to but some heat on them to get my answers that I am looking for.
I guess time will tell.
The worst thing is the weather is finally beautiful here in VA and I and not riding.
SUCKS BRO
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For the record, the 2018 FLHTKSE, FLHTK, FLHTKL, and the tri-glide are still Twin-Cooled using water-based coolant.
The FLHXSE switched from Twin-Cooled to using oil in the heads to augment the air cooling, probably to accommodate those who prefer to ride without the lowers.
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Seems to me they shouldn't be installing a new 117" engine on new bikes when they can't be honest and upfront about the problem with the 114" with stage 4 upgrade they sold us.
To me they should either replace every 114" with a stage 4 kit already installed that is sumping to the new 117" factory engine at no cost. Period.
Or replace the existing troublesome motor with a factory fresh 114" to get our bikes back to the factory engine and refund us our investment of the stage 4 kit as well as the labor we paid to install it.
This is all Harley's fault because they didn't do enough R& D on their stage 4 kit knowing that this kit is an upper rpm engine mod anyway and that most guys doing this upgrade doesn't just putt around town. We ride them.
Had they actually tested these engines with the stage 4 kit on the bikes and ridden them as they were designed to be ridden then they would have easily caught this problem.
Our maybe they did and it was so far past production dates that they went ahead with and rolled with it.
Or I believe the would gamble with the fact that there are very low odds that a lawsuit or class action would be formed, small people vs corporate giant
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dosent the stage 4 kit come with heads, and the crank case breaths thru the heads? may be its an issue with the heads? you get those big pistons moving and the scavenge side of the oil pump cant over come crank case pressure/vacume ??? any body
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I guess I am not much of a cloak and dagger type. The engineers screwed the pooch and didn't do their homework. Now they are scrambling to make it right the way huge conglomerates do... slowly and as cheaply as possible. Take a look at BMW...my 2017 GSA is under a rather hushed recall as the front forks might come loose from the triple tree. If that happens at 85MPH you go boom rather harshly. But BMW, like HD are doing what they can to fix it albeit in a rather half a** way... And if you look on the BMW forums the attitude and accusations are the same...just a different brand. I would hate to think that HD or BMW are doing what the tobacco company or asbestos folks did, but hey what do I know. The bottom line on this whole mess is that we as consumers have the final vote. Sell the bloody thing and move on if you have no faith in HD as a product or company. You have that choice. Expecting HD to do the buy back or engine replacement is not going to happen unless the government is going to tell them they have to. Simple as that...and with them being cozy with the current administration that most likely will not happen. Where is Ralph Nader when you need him! Done with my mini rant. Flame away and ride safe.
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I don't know what harley is up to, but I bet everyone will be enlightened when they have sold most of the MY17 CVO bikes. And the focus will then be on the MY18.
Great diversion tactic.
They can't afford a major recall on the engines or kits and then put pressure on the remaining inventory of MY17 CVO still on the dealers floor. Especially since this is imploding on the new release of the MY18.
They then add the troublesome design to the MY18 bike but then removes the liquid cooling side of the engine which they were touting to be the next best thing.
There sure seems to be a lot of very deceptive meetings behind closed doors to keep this all hush , hush from the consumers it seems to me.
They could be facing a devastating economic impact from this if they continue to have this kind of business model moving forward.
I have contacted Harley 4 times and still no great response from them or the dealer as of yet and my bike is still there.
Consumers affairs was supposed to contact the dealer and send a rep out but I have heard nothing yet.
Bro I am beginning to lose it now.
I am trying to maintain my patience because my local dealer has lost the service manager who was supposed to verify from HD any issues with stage 4 before we proceeded- obviously he didn't, sales manager, general manager, finance manager all within the last few weeks and I am stuck with a POS right now with no one to get a definitive answer from on this.
Shady paperwork trails, I put 12k straight up on my bike in accessories to blacken it out from front to back as well as the stage 4 kit. And I am left with a bike that I have ridden 12-15 times since owning it on 6/3/2017 and it has sumped 6 of those times.
And now I have a very shifty situation with my local installing dealer.
I am going to call them Monday again for the 5th time and give them an ultimatum that if I do not hear from someone from corporate by this coming Wednesday I will be contacting some good ole boys to but some heat on them to get my answers that I am looking for.
I guess time will tell.
The worst thing is the weather is finally beautiful here in VA and I and not riding.
SUCKS BRO
You're not using the same dealer as Norseman in Va are you? Sounds like the same runaround he's been getting.
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Quick update. Took my 2017 CVO Limited with its 3rd engine out for a good long ride today. It now has several hundred miles and I figured it was time to see if this latest engine has any sumping issues. Its still in stock 114 form. I believe HD has definitely figured something out in producing these latest M8 engines. The engine is FAR more powerful than the previous 2. There was nothing I could do on the highway or in the twisties to induce a sumping situation causing power loss. The bike handled the heat extremely well and even though the EITMS kicked on occasionally, there was never any power loss. None. In fact I'd say the engine is feeling stronger as it breaks in.
Of course I'm still in stock mode but even in stock mode this engine feels more powerful than the previous stock 114 engines and far more powerful than the stage 4 after it started sumping. Very pleased and this is the way this engine should have felt from the day I took delivery.
Hopefully this bodes well for the stage 4 upgrade being done this week. Dealer rep is supposedly hand delivering an upgraded oil pump to go with the stage 4 kit install. I certainly hope that the HD engineers have made some serious progress in redesigning their oil pump. Based on this latest new engine, I'm feeling optimistic. Hopefully they don't let me down. This really is a wonderful motorcycle and I hope it can now reach the potential that the HD engineers intended and that I paid for.
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Quick update. Took my 2017 CVO Limited with its 3rd engine out for a good long ride today. It now has several hundred miles and I figured it was time to see if this latest engine has any sumping issues. Its still in stock 114 form. I believe HD has definitely figured something out in producing these latest M8 engines. The engine is FAR more powerful than the previous 2. There was nothing I could do on the highway or in the twisties to induce a sumping situation causing power loss. The bike handled the heat extremely well and even though the EITMS kicked on occasionally, there was never any power loss. None. In fact I'd say the engine is feeling stronger as it breaks in.
Of course I'm still in stock mode but even in stock mode this engine feels more powerful than the previous stock 114 engines and far more powerful than the stage 4 after it started sumping. Very pleased and this is the way this engine should have felt from the day I took delivery.
Hopefully this bodes well for the stage 4 upgrade being done this week. Dealer rep is supposedly hand delivering an upgraded oil pump to go with the stage 4 kit install. I certainly hope that the HD engineers have made some serious progress in redesigning their oil pump. Based on this latest new engine, I'm feeling optimistic. Hopefully they don't let me down. This really is a wonderful motorcycle and I hope it can now reach the potential that the HD engineers intended and that I paid for.
Running that well and producing that many smiles currently it has to almost make you hesitant to let them "upgrade" it....
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Running that well and producing that many smiles currently it has to almost make you hesitant to let them "upgrade" it....
True but I paid for a stage 4 engine. They would give me dealer credit for the Stage 4 kit and tuner but not the labor. And I don't want thousands of $s sitting in credit at a dealer. I would much rather be actually "sitting" on the performance I originally paid for.
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Well said HEATWAVE. I hope I can be saying the same in the near future.
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True but I paid for a stage 4 engine. They would give me dealer credit for the Stage 4 kit and tuner but not the labor. And I don't want thousands of $s sitting in credit at a dealer. I would much rather be actually "sitting" on the performance I originally paid for.
:2vrolijk_21:
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Well said HEATWAVE. I hope I can be saying the same in the near future.
Then again, it might be worth sitting in stock form for abit if HD launchs a stage 4 kit for the 2018 CVOs. Might include cylinders and pistons that take the bike to a 120 M8 since they are already at 117"!!!
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Well I've decided to hang in there for awhile with my new (3rd engine) stock 114 in my 2017 CVO Limited instead of upgrading to a 117 stage 4 for now. "A little birdie" dropped a hint that there might be a new "LARGER" Stage 4 kit to accommodate the 2018 CVO Limiteds that come with 117s from the factory. My guess is that the new Stage 3 & 4 kits for CVOs will likely be an M8 120ci (which of course will become the standard CVO engine down the road).
Based on that thinking, I'm going to hold off on upgrading until the new kits are released for the 2018 CVOs. WTH, I've gambled so far with a new engine design, I might as roll the dice again if there's a possibility of getting a new 120 stage 4 at no additional cost. After a 200 mile ride yesterday on the new 114 engine, it really is a powerful joy to ride. Hopefully the M8 launch pains have been corrected because this new engine really will be the standard for V-twin motorcycle engines if they can straighten out the sumping issues.
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Well I am set to meet the harley rep tomorrow. He wants to ride my bike. Which is ok by me, however like my mechanic said he couldn't get it to sump according to the bulletin procedure. So I hope he is ready to ride the bike long enough and hard enough to get it to sump. I am truely excited to see how Harley tries to handle this one. I want to see if they go with the approach of working thru this the right way, or will they try to B/S me and make it my problem to be stuck with which I am having no parts of.
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It is interesting that my dealer as stated above actually solicited my bike for oil pump upgrade and complete check to insure no scoring or other related issues to oil management. According to the wrench that is per HD instruction. In my case I did not report any issues with the bike pre dealer contact. If HD is actually dealing with this issue proactively I would think there would not be a problem with the Rep denying service. Perhaps it just the dealer from which I have purchased multiple bikes assuring I am a happy camper. Who knows!
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Well I am set to meet the harley rep tomorrow. He wants to ride my bike. Which is ok by me, however like my mechanic said he couldn't get it to sump according to the bulletin procedure. So I hope he is ready to ride the bike long enough and hard enough to get it to sump. I am truely excited to see how Harley tries to handle this one. I want to see if they go with the approach of working thru this the right way, or will they try to B/S me and make it my problem to be stuck with which I am having no parts of.
Will you have the chance to follow him on an other bike ? So you can know exactly how he does the testing and check that he tries to meet your type of riding that triggered the sumping ? These bikes have a CAN bus. There are CAN bus loggers available for years: if someone wants to do a real analysis of the conditions triggering the sumping, plugging such a logger would allow the HD R&D to be aware of the exact conditions you have met.
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Will you have the chance to follow him on an other bike ? So you can know exactly how he does the testing and check that he tries to meet your type of riding that triggered the sumping ? These bikes have a CAN bus. There are CAN bus loggers available for years: if someone wants to do a real analysis of the conditions triggering the sumping, plugging such a logger would allow the HD R&D to be aware of the exact conditions you have met.
Furthermore, Harley and it's dealers have had such logging capabilities for a fairly long time through their proprietary scan tool. How often do you suppose that capability is actually used by techs working on flat rate?
Jerry
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Furthermore, Harley and it's dealers have had such logging capabilities for a fairly long time through their proprietary scan tool. How often do you suppose that capability is actually used by techs working on flat rate?
Jerry
I don't know if dealerships have tools that logs when you ride, they usually have stuff that stay in the garage because data logging when you ride is more of a R&D/QA need.
My company sells parts to OEM in the automotive industry, and when they reach the dealerships we sadly know that many times there are not fitted the way they should, the documentation isn't read, etc.
If a rep is sent by the OEM to do a test ride, that's a completely different story: they don't send guys here and there for the fun of it because it is costly. There are good chances that they really want to understand and fix the problem once and for all. They may reach the conclusion that the fitment wasn't done according to the manual, or that the manual wording is obscure, or that the pump is still to be improved... but the most important thing is to make sure that the conditions triggering the failure are met when the rep comes.
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Can't they run it on the Dyno simulating riding conditions and log it then? If it's sumping they should be able to get it to show symptoms while on the dyno.
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Can't they run it on the Dyno simulating riding conditions and log it then? If it's sumping they should be able to get it to show symptoms while on the dyno.
On the dyno you don't have acceleration on the whole frame, deceleration, vibration, position changes in all dimensions, bumps, etc. There is something that must be related to the riding conditions and not only the RPM otherwise it would have been understood in a test lab a long time ago. I would be surprised that the rep doesn't come with some kind of logger.
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What a day. I met the factory rep, first thing that he looked at on my bike was the exhaust and scanned my tune to verify it was a harley tune.
He actually crossed referenced it to confirm this personally. Which was ok because it was their tuner.
However he was very adamant about voiding warranty and that It is their immediate way out if you have used another tuner.
If it wasn't then he would have blacklisted the bike right then and there.
He didn't like my Thunderheader slip ons. Nor my Dakota digital gauges. He took pictures of my bike, tune, exhaust, gauges etc,
He actually watched my video and discredited it because I didn't get my vin in the video. He did allow me to ride my bike the way I ride to get it to sump.
I was able to get the bike to sump.
The rep then tries to get me to let them try an oil pump, and call it a day.
I advised him that I have been on this forum and seen how harley is using people as guinea pigs with replacing pumps here, pumps there, wrong numbers here old stock there.
And that I have no interest in being their guinea pig.
I also advised him that several people on these forums have had entire engine replacements and stage 4 kits replaced, engines replaced 2,3,times and still have the sumping issues. He laughed and told me that has never happened and that they discredit anything said in these forums as fabrication.
That pissed me off because if it were not for the forums then I would still be trying to figure out a problem with my bike that my local dealer didn't figure out and harley not disclosing this information.
I simply explained that I bought their koolaid for $50k and went all in. I didn't do so based on the agreement of being a their R&D at my expense.
The rep then tried to get me to accept a short or long block replacement.
Which I declined. My bike has sumped 6-7 times and it may or may not have sustained permanent damage and there is no 100% answer to that question.
So I insisted that I want my bike to have a factory fresh 114 engine installed and get fully refunded for my investment of the stage 4 and we can all go home happy.
The rep then told me I was nuts because no one has ever received a factory fresh 114 off of the assembly line to replace their sumping stage 4 engine, either a long or short block replacement. He also said that Harley would never let a customer have 2-3 engines replaced in a bike without giving the customer a new bike. And that I was misinformed by the information I am receiving on the forums.
I told him maybe or maybe not? IDK
He then told me that they aren't even making the liquid cooled 114" anymore and it can't be offered in an entire factory fresh assembly because they don't make it anymore and haven't done so for a long time.
So I then explained to the rep that I would accept an oil cooled factory fresh 117" engine. He said that wouldn't work with the ecm of a liquid cooled motor so I then offered them to install the 117" liguid cooled from the 2018 CVO limited and refund me my investment of the stage 4 and labor. If we can't agree to these terms then I will make the next move with my attorney which has already advised me on how to handle the matter.
He is on stand by and awaiting a phone call from me to proceed.
He gets very upset and offended and then made some calls. He then sits me down with the dealer and agreeing to work this out with a new engine and getting my bike running again.
I call my dealer later on to converse with them a little to be advised on what the harley rep said when I left, the harley rep then shipped out the oil pump to be installed tomorrow behind my back and against my will.
I was advised by Harley customer service over the phone that when the factory RTO was onsite that I was to be present to all conversations, no behind closed door meetings nor would any work be authorized without my consent to the matter. Both rights of which I was denied. They met behind closed doors to converse behind my back then call me in to meet with them to tell me they want to make me happy and replace the motor , however as soon as I leave the meeting they then decide to replace the oil pump behind my back and not even consult me to see if I agree to repair a potentially damaged engine
I demanded the dealer to stop and desist until I have an agreement to get my $50k investment back to a factory fresh crated motor rather it is a 114" or 117" to the original condition before I agreed to be caught up in such a mess.
He agreed to work towards my goal of replacing my engine, protecting my investment and making me happy. But the harley rep then undermines me when I leave the dealer and starts working on trying repair this engine.
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Excellent writeup and handling of the situation. Thanks for posting.
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What a day. I met the factory rep, first thing that he looked at on my bike was the exhaust and scanned my tune to verify it was a harley tune.
He actually crossed referenced it to confirm this personally. Which was ok because it was their tuner.
However he was very adamant about voiding warranty and that It is their immediate way out if you have used another tuner.
If it wasn't then he would have blacklisted the bike right then and there.
He didn't like my Thunderheader slip ons. Nor my Dakota digital gauges. He took pictures of my bike, tune, exhaust, gauges etc,
He actually watched my video and discredited it because I didn't get my vin in the video. He did allow me to ride my bike the way I ride to get it to sump.
I was able to get the bike to sump.
The rep then tries to get me to let them try an oil pump, and call it a day.
I advised him that I have been on this forum and seen how harley is using people as guinea pigs with replacing pumps here, pumps there, wrong numbers here old stock there.
And that I have no interest in being their guinea pig.
I also advised him that several people on these forums have had entire engine replacements and stage 4 kits replaced, engines replaced 2,3,times and still have the sumping issues. He laughed and told me that has never happened and that they discredit anything said in these forums as fabrication.
That pissed me off because if it were not for the forums then I would still be trying to figure out a problem with my bike that my local dealer didn't figure out and harley not disclosing this information.
I simply explained that I bought their koolaid for $50k and went all in. I didn't do so based on the agreement of being a their R&D at my expense.
The rep then tried to get me to accept a short or long block replacement.
Which I declined. My bike has sumped 6-7 times and it may or may not have sustained permanent damage and there is no 100% answer to that question.
So I insisted that I want my bike to have a factory fresh 114 engine installed and get fully refunded for my investment of the stage 4 and we can all go home happy.
The rep then told me I was nuts because no one has ever received a factory fresh 114 off of the assembly line to replace their sumping stage 4 engine, either a long or short block replacement. He also said that Harley would never let a customer have 2-3 engines replaced in a bike without giving the customer a new bike. And that I was misinformed by the information I am receiving on the forums.
I told him maybe or maybe not? IDK
He then told me that they aren't even making the liquid cooled 114" anymore and it can't be offered in an entire factory fresh assembly because they don't make it anymore and haven't done so for a long time.
So I then explained to the rep that I would accept an oil cooled factory fresh 117" engine. He said that wouldn't work with the ecm of a liquid cooled motor so I then offered them to install the 117" liguid cooled from the 2018 CVO limited and refund me my investment of the stage 4 and labor. If we can't agree to these terms then I will make the next move with my attorney which has already advised me on how to handle the matter.
He is on stand by and awaiting a phone call from me to proceed.
He gets very upset and offended and then made some calls. He then sits me down with the dealer and agreeing to work this out with a new engine and getting my bike running again.
I call my dealer later on to converse with them a little to be advised on what the harley rep said when I left, the harley rep then shipped out the oil pump to be installed tomorrow behind my back and against my will.
I was advised by Harley customer service over the phone that when the factory RTO was onsite that I was to be present to all conversations, no behind closed door meetings nor would any work be authorized without my consent to the matter. Both rights of which I was denied. They met behind closed doors to converse behind my back then call me in to meet with them to tell me they want to make me happy and replace the motor , however as soon as I leave the meeting they then decide to replace the oil pump behind my back and not even consult me to see if I agree to repair a potentially damaged engine
I demanded the dealer to stop and desist until I have an agreement to get my $50k investment back to a factory fresh crated motor rather it is a 114" or 117" to the original condition before I agreed to be caught up in such a mess.
He agreed to work towards my goal of replacing my engine, protecting my investment and making me happy. But the harley rep then undermines me when I leave the dealer and starts working on trying repair this engine.
I really hope you get this worked out to your satisfaction. Everyone on this forum should read your post. BTW, I wasn't aware all the posts on this site were made up. I guess heatwave's sumping trouble is all in his mind.
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I'm definitely on my THIRD factory 114 engine in my 2017 CVO Limited. While sumping was the driving factor, its also important to note that my first 2 engines were damaged from overheating caused by the sumping. This damaged was determined by checking the rotation of the crank and rods. If the engine was undamaged, I'm guessing HD would have only authorized a newer oil pump installation.
The latest engine runs great and i was informed that the 3rd engine is actually an engine off the 2018 engine manufacturer line with 114 cyl/pistons. So far this latest engine is quite strong. Waiting to see if they release a "Bigger bore" stage 4 kit for the 2018 CVO 117s since it will be an even bigger stage 4 kit for the 114s.
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Bro. What he said about the forum set fire into me as well. I agree 110%. As I explained to him when you are that closed minded and wouldn't even read the forum thread as I offered to show him like 5 times, only to give him a full insight into not only my situation and where I stand , but also the others this has happened to already.
He again declined to even entertain this a proof and basically said we are all whack jobs. I got the feeling that corporate has mandated for them not to troll these forums as it undermines their ability to scam the general public to their favor and intent.
He wanted absolutely nothing to do with it.
He was also very well trained for the obvious warranty voiding issues, because of exhaust and tuner. He couldn't let me know that enough. Told me like 8 times.
He was really looking for a different tuner on my bike.
He was actually disappointed in his appearance when he researched the tune number and found it to be a Harley number because he didn't recognize it. He was ready to nail me right then and there
before we even started the bike. But he couldn't.
I will say that Harley has a major issue right now, this guys was skillfully trained on trying to sway things Harley's way and what triggers to pull.
However I informed him they have the wrong guy for that.
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Yeah that's really shoddy to try to void an oil pump issue because of an aftermarket tune.
I like the idea more and more of letting the attorney handle this...and less and less that I will every buy another Harley.
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I really like my bike and just want it to run like it should. The bike has run hot and sumped almost every time I ride it hard or not. I also don't feel with the existing track record with how harley is handling it and doesn't know 100% yet what's going on that I should have my brand new engine torn apart to verify lower end damage or not, cooling jet torque etc. The top end is no big deal. But my local shop mechanic even states that he has never done that before, at least he was honest with me. So I am not even entertaining a patch, piece, and repair nothing.
Either new crate motor, bike swap, or like I told the rep, I will pay the local shop to install the liquid cooled 117" to get to riding and then I will remove the troublesome motor and gladly sit it down on the judges table to deliberate over the issues and let him decide whom is deserving of what.
Sounds like a win, win to me. But a major pain in the ass.
But I would love to get the factory crate 117 on my bike because I don't Realy like the 2018 colors.
Maybe no harley at all.
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IMHO this will ultimately be Harley's kiss of death, that is, putting out an inferior product and letting their loyal customer base suck it. They have choices how to deal with these situations that seem to happen over and over and more times than not is seems they try to avoid responsibility and leave a good chunk of the burden on the customer. We've been through it with the Twin Cam 99-06 chain tensioners, the late Twin Cam lifters and compensators, and now the M8 sumping.
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Well said.
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What you ran into was a bullchit artist masquerading as a Harley technical rep. In the past they have actually had some good ones, as noted by posts on this forum (but of course you can't believe anything on this forum) from people who met with good ones who only wanted to fix the problems, not find ways to screw over the customer. Sadly it's just a luck of the draw thing as to who you get to talk to. It would have also helped if your dealership had stood up for you in front of this jerk, but just like factory reps, dealers aren't all made equal.
I spent a significant portion of my early career as a zone service manager for an auto manufacturer, and I saw the same thing to some extent in that business. For every person like me who just wanted to help fix problems and make customers satisfied, there were less competent people with the same title and job description who seemed to purposely set out to deny everything and pizz off customers. Unfortunately it seems you got one of those.
I wouldn't let them drag this BS out too much further before turning that attorney loose on them. At that point I think I'd have him go after a complete buy-back of the bike and compensation for all the money spent and time wasted trying to get Harley to honor the warranty and do the right thing. Assuming they actually buy it back, you can then decide whether you want to buy another one from people who would treat you this way, or perhaps look at alternatives. There are other choices out there these days, and people don't have to grab their ankles if they don't want to.
Jerry
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While it's an afterthought for you know I'd never walk in to a meeting such as you had without a voice recorder running. Too easy for someone to say, suggest or even outright promise one thing and then do something else.
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Jerry,
I agree 100%. I am calling customer service first thing in the morning to file a complaint and escalate it to internal consumer affairs again.
I am expecting to get an answer tomorrow or Tuesday I guess because of Labor Day. If nothing is handled by then. I have a date set in my mind of next Wednesday before I involve my attorney.
I have missed several annual events with paid for accommodations this year while my bike sits and am a scheduled for a week event on Sept 24 that looks like I won't be making that ride either and those accommodations are already paid for.
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10-4 on that two lane. They would find a way to discredit that as well. But your right I wish I would have done that.
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he
He was actually disappointed in his appearance when he researched the tune number and found it to be a Harley number because he didn't recognize it.
If the only way HD has to discriminate a genuine tune from a non genuine one is the tune number... then I guess that from now on they will never be able to find any more tune from PV, TTS, etc.. :P
Obviously the guy had his mind already made up before touching your bike and he was disappointed to have to admit that he was wrong. This is not professional. HD learnt nothing from his visit, this is just wasted time.
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Basically the HD rep had a pre-determined outcome in mind and was frustrated when he couldn't find the evidence to reach it. He was hoping to find SOMETHING, ANYTHING, that he could hang his hat on to deny your warranty. Here's the part that really sucks, and you've already alluded to it - you dropped $50k on a bike that depreciates in value every day, and you can't ride it. Sort of takes the joy out of buying a new "top of the line" bike.
Does your state have a lemon law? Sounds like this would be an avenue to take. Indian and BMW make some good bikes...after your experience I could never "feel the HD love" again. Keep us posted...even though you're making all this up...
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I have worked with Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki reps back in my motorcycle days, General Motors and BMW for the last 25 years and I can honestly say I have not had one that acted liked this moron. He didn't want to fix the problem with your bike, he had hope to find a aftermarket flash that would give Harley the excuse to hang this on you, that was apparent when he told you several times about a aftermarket flash, and then lie to you about the oil pump verse the engine replacement, and not to mention him laughing about the forum, BMW actually monitors the forums and helps people if its a legit problem rather than blame them and not take care of there product.
I hope you get what you want and should have coming to you (engine) but the way this guy is handling it, I would want a new bike.
Please keep us updated as I will be watching this thread. :vrolijk_11:
Good luck to you with this issue
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So the owner of the dealership who lives in Canada called me today. Wouldn't even allow me to call him back when he first called because I was in a business meeting. Wouldn't give me a return phone number to return his call. He called me back an hour later per my request.
This guy was aggressive and flat out told me that I will either have harley disassemble the engine for damage to inspect for damage and install the new oil pump or remove my bike from his dealership.
He told me that is the stand harley is going by and that I either go by the recall bulletin or pick up my bike. I kindly explained to him about the wonderful lemon law here in Virginia and that my bike has been in their shop 3 -4 times with the same issue unresolved and that it will remain there until the 30 days is up and he will be buying back the entire investment. The jerk then hung up on me.
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And it was obvious with his intent when he wouldn't give me a return phone number.
This is adding fuel to the fire.
However I am a business owner myself and if my said product is failing someone I do know what it is like to at least have an opportunity to fix the issue.
So it wouldn't be fair if I at least didn't afford the local dealer and harley at least one honest shot at the repair even though it isn't what I want to hear.
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So the owner of the dealership who lives in Canada called me today. Wouldn't even allow me to call him back when he first called because I was in a business meeting. Wouldn't give me a return phone number to return his call. He called me back an hour later per my request.
This guy was aggressive and flat out told me that I will either have harley disassemble the engine for damage to inspect for damage and install the new oil pump or remove my bike from his dealership.
He told me that is the stand harley is going by and that I either go by the recall bulletin or pick up my bike. I kindly explained to him about the wonderful lemon law here in Virginia and that my bike has been in their shop 3 -4 times with the same issue unresolved and that it will remain there until the 30 days is up and he will be buying back the entire investment. The jerk then hung up on me.
Just an FYI, I don't know how Virginia's lemon law works, but in Ohio, it really doesn't affect the dealer, its the manufacture, so if Virginia's is the same he shouldn't have got upset at you, he should have agreed with you, he also should be all over getting you a new bike! It would be another unit sold for him!
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Wow! What a difference in dealers...I just got my SG back without any hassle except 2 days of down time. The work order stated "over 3 ounces of oil noted" They tore the whole top end down to the cases, checked and photographed all components, pronounced them WNL, put the bike back together including changing oil, filter/ oil pump and delivered to my door without any problem. The wrench said "Ride the S*** out of it, any problems bring it in and we will make it right". Now I know why I have bought my last 7 bikes from these guys. Anyway, bike runs fine, pulls hard and does what a HD does without incident. Color me happy! Good luck with your situation and dealer. Ride safe.
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Whole thread sounds like another happy future Indian rider(s) in the making.
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Hi everyone. Thanks for the thread and sharing your experience. I am long time CVO customer. Still have RK and SG CVOs.
I bought 2017 RG Special and custom paint set. Also Stage 3 which got my motor to 114. Basically built my own CVO RG in the absence of one.
Immediately I noted power loss issues. Mostly it happened during long haul trips. In town rides are short. So no problems were detected. I spoke to a few specialists including dealer. No idea what the problem was. One of the reasons could be that I live in Europe and our season started late this year due to rain and cold.
Anyway today my engine died fully. On the way to Faaker See - annual European HD bike event. From overheating. Saw another bike at the dealer as well with the same problem. CVO though.
Hope HD replaces my engine. If anything interesting will be developing will write here.
Thanks again for sharing your experiences
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Sorry to hear you're experiencing sumping. Curious....when did you buy your RGS? When did you have the stage 3 kit installed? Did they make any change to the oil pump or was the Stage 3 install before they issued SB1450 in mid-July of this year?
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I can't help but wonder if the aftermarket folks are having the same problem with their various kits. If so, this would have to be the first time in my experience and memory when changing an oil pump became a mandatory part of a performance upgrade. Makes no sense, and I'd love to see someone figure this out AND publish just exactly what is causing this. Harley will never tell, even if they do eventually figure it out, so it will be up to the aftermarket to do it.
Jerry
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Your refusal to allow the tear down of the motor is going to sink any claim you may have Not a time for a standoff!
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Your refusal to allow the tear down of the motor is going to sink any claim you may have Not a time for a standoff!
In my experience, I am wondering why Harley doesn't swap your WHOLE MOTOR out with a new upgraded one from the factory. Then they can play "lab rat" at their leisure to determine what is really going on. You on the other hand may be curious but won't really care since you would be riding again in less than a day.
They can stamp the original serial number on the new motor before it's sent to the installing dealer.
Best regards
Other Jerry
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That's what they did after my second engine failed. Shipped new 2018 engine but with 114 cyl/pistons and shipped my busted engine back to the lab tor diagnosis
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In my experience, I am wondering why Harley doesn't swap your WHOLE MOTOR out with a new upgraded one from thefactory. Then they can play "lab rat" at their leisure to determine what is really going on. You on the other hand may be curious but won't really care since you would be riding again in less than a day.
They can stamp the original serial number on the new motor before it's sent to the installing dealer.
Best regards
Other Jerry
My guess is the MOCO already full well knows what the problem is - and he was unlucky enough to end up with a factory rep who thinks he is protecting the company (and himself) by denying all knowledge, lying and being a general prick... When in fact he is only further alienating their customer base...
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Your refusal to allow the tear down of the motor is going to sink any claim you may have Not a time for a standoff!
That's why it would be a good idea to get the attorney involved up front, and not after all the mistakes are made.
At this point, and considering the jackass service rep and dealer, I wouldn't trust anything they said about the results of a teardown and inspection. And I seriously doubt they would let the customer stand there and watch the entire process. But you're probably right, failure to allow the manufacturer to attempt an inspection could blow any chance of a lemon law buy-back out of the water. I wonder how many attempts they are allowed under the VA law.
My answer to all the drama of trying to get H-D to stand behind their crap was to refuse to ever buy another one. That's a decision I've stuck by for over ten years, and based on all the stuff I read around here I know I made the right decision.
Jerry
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Ha! My newest and last HD is my 02 that I bought used knowing well the issues with the weak OE oil pump and cam chain tensioners, but also knowing later years had their share of respective issues I wanted to avoid.
I can't imagine ever buying another Harley; certainly not a new one.
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Yes I know that if I do not allow them one opportunity to repair the bike then I don't have a leg to stand on.
I got a call from the dealer on Monday morning claiming the mechanic was tearing the engine apart for inspection and haven't heard anything else.
I have tried calling them for 2 days to see how it went and can't even get them to answer.
The riding season is gone, I had to cancel my last event for the year which is always located at deals gap for the tail of the dragon so that I don't get billed for the accommodations.
I did lose my deposit.
Just all around total B/S
I traded in 2 pristine Harley's that were paid for to buy this bike to miss the rest of the riding season and spent $50k.
B/S
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Yes I know that if I do not allow them one opportunity to repair the bike then I don't have a leg to stand on.
I got a call from the dealer on Monday morning claiming the mechanic was tearing the engine apart for inspection and haven't heard anything else.
I have tried calling them for 2 days to see how it went and can't even get them to answer.
The riding season is gone, I had to cancel my last event for the year which is always located at deals gap for the tail of the dragon so that I don't get billed for the accommodations.
I did lose my deposit.
Just all around total B/S
I traded in 2 pristine Harley's that were paid for to buy this bike to miss the rest of the riding season and spent $50k.
B/S
I definitely feel your pain. In the end my bike does feel strong with the 3rd 114 engine. I'm still owed a stage 4 kit but I'm holding off for awhile to see if they make any displacement increases to the stage 4 kits. After seeing the 2018s, I had absolutely no interest in a new bike and really just wanted my '17 CVO Limited back running as I knew it was capable of running. I truly hope everything works out for you because it is a really great bike but it has certainly caused a fair amount of motorcycle misery for a good # of us.
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Shouldn't there be a loaner bike in this equation? I know if you have esp there used to be a clause in there stating such.
Best of luck
TN
Call Matt Levatich, his assistant Jenny will get you some results. :drink:
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Sorry to hear you're experiencing sumping. Curious....when did you buy your RGS? When did you have the stage 3 kit installed? Did they make any change to the oil pump or was the Stage 3 install before they issued SB1450 in mid-July of this year?
For some reason the delivery of the bikes to our market was late. So the bike arrived some time in June. The kit was installed pretty much in June - beginning of July. I took delivery of the bike mid July.
I think I am the first in our market to experience this issue. I thought that it is due to software glitch. That software is trying to deal with heat by reducing the power. I discussed it with mechanics at the dealer. Not as a complain but more as a discussion while passing the bike for completion of first service. At that time I had this issue twice during long haul day trips.
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My guess is the MOCO already full well knows what the problem is - and he was unlucky enough to end up with a factory rep who thinks he is protecting the company (and himself) by denying all knowledge, lying and being a general prick... When in fact he is only further alienating their customer base...
You are correct.
However, since Harley has become such expert stewards in cost containment and expense reduction it would seem to be a sound business decision at say $3,500 manufacturers cost for the entire engine replacement and install labor.
The offset against that one time cost is all of the repeated expense in labor, parts, factory rep travel and expense, lodging etc (those extra beers and steaks--etc) that may not be over yet after several attempts.
Oh well maybe on the next one..... :coolblue: :coolblue:
I am hoping everything has now been resolved.
Best Regards
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Sure hope you get the satisfaction you deserve. Obviously the MOCO has many issues that is costing them $$ that they feel the need to send out the BS artist to intimidate rather than resolve. As well as flat lie that they haven't replaced multiple motors in some instances when we know many of our members here have been having serious issues since 07. I find it amusing how many salesmen I have talked to at many different dealers that either act ignorant or flat deny the many 110 issues. I agree with others the blistering written words from a good Attorney may be needed to help your cause.
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IMHO, as a foreigner not knowing USA laws and the motorcycle industry in details, so my opinion may be worth zilch, the sumping issue bringing a sudden loss of power could be considered an ASIL D safety concern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_Safety_Integrity_Level (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_Safety_Integrity_Level)). For instance if you are losing power while taking over, then your life is at risk. Still IMHO, if you are really about to go to see an attorney, I would go to an attorney specialized in the automotive/vehicle field , or a consumer group with experience in the vehicle industry, not someone working also on divorces and neighborhood problems. The difference between a money-only problem and a vehicle safety related problem is significant. If you were facing an unexpected risk while using one of their vehicle, HD can't just count beans.
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I have noticed that so many things HD says "May cause injury or death" I guess as their disclaimer. JMHO, you shouldn't have to be subject to dealing with a Rep that does his best to deny coverage instead of just trying to make you happy. I hear the drums getting louder everyday. :indian_chief:
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Still no response from my local dealer on progress. Finally great riding weather as well.
Pissing me off.
I am going down there tomorrow.
I also didn't think about the vehicle safety issue which is a complete viable option. Because I actually was almost hit twice because of loss of power in bad situations.
Very serious issues
I am very close to pull the trigger on arranging legal counsel.
Maybe even start arranging a class action law suit.
The more we can form together the better chances we will have to get some attention and get some real answers at least.
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Still no response from my local dealer on progress. Finally great riding weather as well.
Pissing me off.
I am going down there tomorrow.
I also didn't think about the vehicle safety issue which is a complete viable option. Because I actually was almost hit twice because of loss of power in bad situations.
Very serious issues
I am very close to pull the trigger on arranging legal counsel.
Maybe even start arranging a class action law suit.
The more we can form together the better chances we will have to get some attention and get some real answers at least.
Stay away from the class action lawsuits,,, the pos attorneys get all the money,,, I was involved in two CALs, (AT&T & Ford), never got a dime from either one >:(
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Perhaps it's time for Harley to abandon the dry sump system and go to something simpler and more in tune with their current crop of "talent". A wet sump system has served well for many types of vehicles for a very long time, and the pumps are very simple devices even Harley should be able to understand. Or if that's too difficult, they could always try a total loss system with a tank of oil (half of the fuel tank perhaps) and gravity feed. No oil pump and no filter necessary, and no worries about high oil temps and oil coolers and other nonessential stuff.
Jerry ;)
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Still no response from my local dealer on progress. Finally great riding weather as well.
Pissing me off.
I am going down there tomorrow.
I also didn't think about the vehicle safety issue which is a complete viable option. Because I actually was almost hit twice because of loss of power in bad situations.
Very serious issues
I am very close to pull the trigger on arranging legal counsel.
Maybe even start arranging a class action law suit.
The more we can form together the better chances we will have to get some attention and get some real answers at least.
Sometimes you have to cut your losses and use Plan B.
Plan B in this case would be to trade it in on a 2018. I'm betting they will be more than willing to give you a deal and cut new bike add on "up charges" just to make your issue go away.
Best of luck
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Sometimes you have to cut your losses and use Plan B.
Plan B in this case would be to trade it in on a 2018. I'm betting they will be more than willing to give you a deal and cut new bike add on "up charges" just to make your issue go away.
Best of luck
Don't count on it. My guess is they will use hocus pocus #s to rob you on the new bike deal. Count on it. They know you're likely to make an emotional financial decision which they will certainly take advantage of.
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Sometimes you have to cut your losses and use Plan B.
Plan B in this case would be to trade it in on a 2018. I'm betting they will be more than willing to give you a deal and cut new bike add on "up charges" just to make your issue go away.
Best of luck
Out of curiosity...if you bought a Ford truck, had this much trouble with it, would you want to trade it in on another? When having this much difficulty with a product, why would a consumer want to buy from the same manufacturer? The dealer would make money off your trade and your new purchase. This would Be a win-win for the dealer and the MoCo for manufacturing a flawed product. Usually the response from someone that had a bad experience with one brand, is to buy from another manufacturer. Based on the problems posted about the 117, I'd have a hard time walking into my HD dealer to trade for a '18 and let them profit from their own mistakes.
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Out of curiosity...if you bought a Ford truck, had this much trouble with it, would you want to trade it in on another? When having this much difficulty with a product, why would a consumer want to buy from the same manufacturer? The dealer would make money off your trade and your new purchase. This would Be a win-win for the dealer and the MoCo for manufacturing a flawed product. Usually the response from someone that had a bad experience with one brand, is to buy from another manufacturer. Based on the problems posted about the 117, I'd have a hard time walking into my HD dealer to trade for a '18 and let them profit from their own mistakes.
And that is where Harley wins. While the guys who bought brand Z and had numerous problems and lousy customer service then changed to a different brand, Harley's customers just kept giving them a second and third and fourth and fifth and sixth chance. Blind loyalty to a seriously flawed company is not the way to pressure that company to do better, and as we have seen repeatedly all that loyalty and repeat business has allowed Harley to keep right on screwing customers for decades. What will finally grab them by the cajones is the fact that the younger generations are not blindly loyal to anything, unlike the boomers. The day of reckoning is very near, and I fear they still don't have a clue.
As for the idea of trading in one POS on another potential POS to "fix" the problems with the first POS, only one of those blind Harley customers would think that is any kind of solution. No dealer is going to trade someone out of a problem bike and not profit on the deal, so the guy who already has $50k invested in a less than 1 year old bike he hasn't been able to use much would now have at least $60k invested in a motorcycle that may be no better than what he had to start with. What then, do the trade thing again and lose another pile of cash? Harley and the dealer would be laughing all the way to the bank.
Jerry
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And that is where Harley wins. While the guys who bought brand Z and had numerous problems and lousy customer service then changed to a different brand, Harley's customers just kept giving them a second and third and fourth and fifth and sixth chance. Blind loyalty to a seriously flawed company is not the way to pressure that company to do better, and as we have seen repeatedly all that loyalty and repeat business has allowed Harley to keep right on screwing customers for decades. What will finally grab them by the cajones is the fact that the younger generations are not blindly loyal to anything, unlike the boomers. The day of reckoning is very near, and I fear they still don't have a clue.
As for the idea of trading in one POS on another potential POS to "fix" the problems with the first POS, only one of those blind Harley customers would think that is any kind of solution. No dealer is going to trade someone out of a problem bike and not profit on the deal, so the guy who already has $50k invested in a less than 1 year old bike he hasn't been able to use much would now have at least $60k invested in a motorcycle that may be no better than what he had to start with. What then, do the trade thing again and lose another pile of cash? Harley and the dealer would be laughing all the way to the bank.
Jerry
In my opinion and experience
Over the years we usually can all discuss very sensitive issues like this and at least agree to disagree.
No solution is perfect here but I can tell you this, if you bring an attorney into the equation any type of concessions are essentially over. The dealer won't talk with you nor will HD Corporate. Everything will run through the attorneys.. theirs who are full time paid employees and yours that you will be paying for. You will experience running up sizeable attorney fees and face the possibility of not having your motorcycle repaired to your satisfaction in a timely manner. Anything positive will be stopped until the attorneys negotiate and agree what the plan will be.
The end result will be far more total expense not less.
Harley Corporate on the other hand may, like a car dealer, be willing to take the bike back and give you a deal on a new one. They may fix the existing bike to their standards (stock) and sell it with a warranty. The rest of the unrecovered expense would be written off.
On the other side of the deal, we all know there is considerable financial latitude in these bikes and under these circumstances I am suggesting they would be willing to make a thin profit or break even deal. Why would they do that? They want to retain a repeat customer and minimize any negative publicity.
Jerry, we both know this isn't our decision to make. It rests with the owner. Like you, I am willing to share my own experiences in this subject to aid in a better informed decision and solution.
Now I need to get back to the very demanding Hurricane.
Best Regards to everyone.
Other Jerry
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I went by the dealer today.
The good is that the cooling jets were torqued fine at 35 ft lbs from Harley, the lower end rotated very clean and free, there was a 1/16" play in the connecting rods from side to side that the mechanic said should be there for the need of expansion for heat. The cylinders looked clean with no scars in them. Ported cylinder heads looked very clean, piston heads looked good, plugs looked very clean.
The bad. They pulled the motor apart on Monday. They never called me back to look at the bike when it was disassembled. Had I not shown up today they would still be waiting on me.
Where is the sense of urgency?
They blamed it on a bad phone number however when they looked it up in the system it is the same number that they had on file and no problem reaching me on when they needed more cash!!!!
I was then notified by the mechanic that the factory rep told him he would send him the current revision 3 oil pump and everything needed to install it.
However the mechanic notified me today that he has been waiting on me all week to look at the motor before he ordered the gaskets that were not sent with the oil pump.
So I now have to wait for them to order them, get them in, and wait for his schedule to clear up before he can reassemble the bike. Another 1-1.5 weeks away.
This really sucks that all the bull chit I have been thru and they are putting me on the back burners and once they actually complete my bike the riding season is going to be gone.
The mechanic is very honest and nice however I just don't know how much more I can weather.
Again not all the correct parts needed, poor scheduling, piss poor communications,
I feel like I am actually losing my mind somewhere in all of this.
Am I in some kind of twilight zone?
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Unfortunately from what I have observed this is as much the norm as exception.
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I went by the dealer today.
The good is that the cooling jets were torqued fine at 35 ft lbs from Harley, the lower end rotated very clean and free, there was a 1/16" play in the connecting rods from side to side that the mechanic said should be there for the need of expansion for heat. The cylinders looked clean with no scars in them. Ported cylinder heads looked very clean, piston heads looked good, plugs looked very clean.
The bad. They pulled the motor apart on Monday. They never called me back to look at the bike when it was disassembled. Had I not shown up today they would still be waiting on me.
Where is the sense of urgency?
They blamed it on a bad phone number however when they looked it up in the system it is the same number that they had on file and no problem reaching me on when they needed more cash!!!!
I was then notified by the mechanic that the factory rep told him he would send him the current revision 3 oil pump and everything needed to install it.
However the mechanic notified me today that he has been waiting on me all week to look at the motor before he ordered the gaskets that were not sent with the oil pump.
So I now have to wait for them to order them, get them in, and wait for his schedule to clear up before he can reassemble the bike. Another 1-1.5 weeks away.
This really sucks that all the bull chit I have been thru and they are putting me on the back burners and once they actually complete my bike the riding season is going to be gone.
The mechanic is very honest and nice however I just don't know how much more I can weather.
Again not all the correct parts needed, poor scheduling, piss poor communications,
I feel like I am actually losing my mind somewhere in all of this.
Am I in some kind of twilight zone?
Please go and see the Service Manager and the General Manager and ask for their help. I am sure they can find a way to get you out of the shop as soon as....
Best regards
Other Jerry
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Please go and see the Service Manager and the General Manager and ask for their help. I am sure they can find a way to get you out of the shop as soon as....
Best regards
Other Jerry
Or, it may be time to walk into a BMW, Yamaha, or Indian dealer...
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Ok realistically the dealer will ultimately fix the bike and it will run fine. Unfortunately without an attorney pinpointing exactly where HD broke any laws or regulations this will be a done deal. As a friend of mine would say, "being an asshole unfortunately is not illegal". I don't see how unloading it now toward either a 2018 HD or other brand solves anything. Hopefully the bike runs good and is reliable from now on and you enjoy it, but I would suspect it will be awhile before this experience is forgotten. And thanks to the good ol interweb the MoCo just lost a few more potential customers and will continue to keep losing them as long as these types of bad customer service interactions are reported.
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Still no word from anyone.
Waiting very patiently
Cancelled my 25th wedding anniversary trip to the tail of the dragon in deals gap, just don't know if I will have a bike to ride.
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The acting general manager asked me to give them till today before I cancelled to see if he can have my bike ready by then. Promised me he would let me know. Never heard from him. I cancelled the reservation just now to find out I missed the cancellation time frame by 1 day and got charged $2,000 anyway.
Just my luck.
Adding more salt to the wound because when i spoke to him in person Friday I was going to cancel it then and he asked me to give him until today.
Cancelled anniversary reservations as well as another $2000 loss.
Where does this all end????? :soapbox:
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The acting general manager asked me to give them till today before I cancelled to see if he can have my bike ready by then. Promised me he would let me know. Never heard from him. I cancelled the reservation just now to find out I missed the cancellation time frame by 1 day and got charged $2,000 anyway.
Just my luck.
Adding more salt to the wound because when i spoke to him in person Friday I was going to cancel it then and he asked me to give him until today.
Cancelled anniversary reservations as well as another $2000 loss.
Where does this all end????? :soapbox:
Doesn't address the parsimonious and pusillanimous issues of Mother Harley but, most times, if you ask your credit card company to charge back the fee a hotel property charges for a cancelled reservation it will happen. You're being charged for a product or service never provided. That particular hotel might not want you back. But you can likely save the money.
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Still calling the customer service reps every other day. I have noticed they are seeing my number and all of them are becoming very impatient and actually are rude to me now.
They used to make me give them a case number or VIN number before they would assist me, now they just address me in a different light.
Almost to the point of discriminating a troublesome customer. !!!!!!!
Actually today someone answered the customer service line 3 times and immediately forwarded them to rest me to the beginning prompts.
This took place 3 times and a rude lady finally answered on the forth time because she noticed my number. The customer service reps are actually monitoring the line for phone numbers.
Again almost like they are discriminating against troublesome customers!!!!!!!
They are being non cooperative and very rude the more that I push.
Still haven't had anyone with any responsible authority actually have a decent professional discussion about my bike, my rights and plain out what is the right thing to do to address my needs.
It is quite shameful actually.
If I operated my business in that order then I would be out of business and laying off all of my employees as well as spending all of my other time in and out of the court systems.
They are really burning a nasty bridge with me now. They are not responsive and are stonewalling my every effort trying to reach someone with authority.
Legal threats have went to no avail so they are running out of time as well as I am running out of patience.
Been an absolute nightmare of a riding season. Especially when I traded in both of my other Harley's for this one to not even ride this season. The very first one in over 20+ years.
Again sorry for the :soapbox:
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Doesn't address the parsimonious and pusillanimous issues of Mother Harley but, most times, if you ask your credit card company to charge back the fee a hotel property charges for a cancelled reservation it will happen. You're being charged for a product or service never provided. That particular hotel might not want you back. But you can likely save the money.
Great to know. I will need to call the location tomorrow. They are a smaller company, to see what they can do for me. I would hate to try that on a small business especially since it isn't their fault.
I am a small business owner as well and usually try to help people in the time of need however not everyone runs their business like that. We will see. Thanks so much for the heads up though.
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Great to know. I will need to call the location tomorrow. They are a smaller company, to see what they can do for me. I would hate to try that on a small business especially since it isn't their fault.
I am a small business owner as well and usually try to help people in the time of need however not everyone runs their business like that. We will see. Thanks so much for the heads up though.
I understand and would also try to work something out with them. Credit for future stays or something other equally satisfactory. But if you feel it's likely they'll re-book the room (or you check over your dates for availability and find out they have) so they'd be double-dipping the charge back is last option for recovery.
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Wow this situation is a textbook case of bad customer service. Like Comcast bad.
I wonder if they would consider setting you up with a loaner so you don't have to miss your trip or lose the deposit.
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I have asked for a loaner twice. No one had even acknowledged my request so I won't beg them.
I was able to cancel but lost $730 instead of the $2000. They were able to work with me a little.
I was able to leave a voicemail message with Matt levatich's assistant Jenny yesterday asking for someone with some kind of responsible authority to at least afford me enough respect to call me back and have a professional conversation about very poor customer service.
Request has gone completely unacknowledged.
Again absolutely nothing what so ever.
It is almost a laughable situation if it wasn't my $50k+ :huepfenjump3:
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I was in a similar situation years ago with a "major" retailer (not motorcycle related). I tried every angle for several months to get a reasonable resolution to no avail. The situation was a complete cluster from near the beginning and fortunately I documented every email, conversation, phone call, photos, etc. Finally I made a call and hired a local attorney to handle the situation on my behalf, turning over my documentation package. We had one brief face to face meeting to get aligned. That very afternoon I received a call from said retailer with an agreement to my resolution proposal - the exact resolution proposal I was trying to get working on my own behalf. Attorney only costed me a few hundred bucks and literally only needed to make a single phone call to the right person. Only regret, other than doing business with this retailer, was being nice for too long and not hiring the attorney earlier.
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I was in a similar situation years ago with a "major" retailer (not motorcycle related). I tried every angle for several months to get a reasonable resolution to no avail. The situation was a complete cluster from near the beginning and fortunately I documented every email, conversation, phone call, photos, etc. Finally I made a call and hired a local attorney to handle the situation on my behalf, turning over my documentation package. We had one brief face to face meeting to get aligned. That very afternoon I received a call from said retailer with an agreement to my resolution proposal - the exact resolution proposal I was trying to get working on my own behalf. Attorney only costed me a few hundred bucks and literally only needed to make a single phone call to the right person. Only regret, other than doing business with this retailer, was being nice for too long and not hiring the attorney earlier.
In many cases all it takes is one call or letter from an attorney to convince a company to do the right thing. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work, especially if you're dealing with a company that has a history of blowing off such contacts and basically forcing people to spend time and money pursuing legal action. Considering Harley's spotty history of customer disservice, it's hard to say which way it would go. In this case, I think there has been enough bad faith and outright fraud (lies) plus documented monetary losses to justify an attorney. It is highly unlikely Harley is going to magically do an about face and step up to do the right thing after the history we've read in this thread.
JMHO - Jerry
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Have you disclosed the location of this wonderful dealer so we can all get in on the action!!
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Have you disclosed the location of this wonderful dealer so we can all get in on the action!!
>:(
Good point. I perused most of the pages of this posting and never did note the Dealership name (seemed like it may have been somewhere in Virginia??). YUP, we should all know the name of any dealer that is jerking one of us around to this extent. In the past, we have acknowledged Dealerships that do great service work and those that have offered discounts on mail order parts/accessories. So put the name out there.
Also, I would agree with Twolane and others earlier in this post as to (brand)..........Do I hear INDIAN :apple: I'm too old now to much care about another new bike, but given what I'm seeing, after 5 Harleys..........these kinds of posts tell me all I need to know............next one (if ever) would be a new Yamaha or more likely an Indian. Why would one want to continue paying big bucks for the kind of grief displayed here................. :nixweiss:
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You may want to write the HD CEO a concise letter outlining your trouble. I had problems with AT&T a few years, got no resolution, left messages with AT&T managers, etc, with no returned calls. Wrote the AT&T CEO a letter outlining my problems and I soon had every AT&T employee that blew me off trying to kiss my ass. Remember to make your letter concise and to the point - no longer than a page, with short paragraphs. Cover the main points - don't get bogged down small details. People are more likely to read something short.
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Yes everyone deserves to know who the dealer is that I am dealing with. However before I get to that let me explain how today went.
So again no communication what so ever this week. I showed up out of the blue today.
My bike hasn't been touched.
I asked the mechanic what's going on.
He said oh I got your cam cover gasket but they didn't send the other gaskets. The cylinder base and head gaskets.
He said they ordered them and found out they are backordered.
The mechanic said he was called yesterday from Harley wondering why my bike wasn't finished, he said because they didn't ship the gaskets to find out they are on backorder. None to be found anywhere.
So now my bike is awaiting more gaskets that are not abvailable now.
The mechanic now blames this on the factory rep ED making a statement, which I wasn't privy to that he would send all of the parts needed.
I also start questioning them to see my service invoices for the amount of times and dates that my bike was in the shop for the same related sumping issue and also when the last date my bike was delivered to their shop for the sumping issue.
She didn't have but one service ticket in the computer related to sumping even though I have had it in there 4 times before the factory rep showed up and released with a diagnosis of can't duplicate the issue.
So she messed up and fessed up that the factory rep ED had the mechanic go back into the computer and close invoices and delete them. He also redated the only other two invoices to sept 1,2017 even though the bike was dropped off on 8/16/2017.
So the reason I mention this is because there is no basis right now with service records for me to prove my case of my bike being in the shop 3 times for the same engine failure and on 9-16-17 if it was not repaired then they will have to buy my bike back with the lemon law to apply.
Which when I mentioned that to Ed that day, he was a very busy body to go behind my back to erase some service history to swing this in favor of the dealership and harley. This is the same factory rep to look me in the eyes to agree to replace my motor to then go behind my back behind closed doors and order the repair. And here it is 2 weeks later with no repair, backordered part and a hateful rep. No motor, no bike, no ride. Pure pain in the ass.
Hence they would have until this Saturday 9/16/17 to repair my bike or buy it.
I told her it takes someone really good to get me and both harley and Shenandoah Harley Davidson has done a fabulous job doing so as well covering their tracks in the process.
They should be very proud of that fact because it doesn't happen often. However it has happened here.
So I am pissed and call HD customer service, very nicely mind you.
The rep was nice today and sent a message to the customer service manager Mrs. Smith. She called me back within 1 hour.
I went thru this whole process from the start to finish from the overcharge scam from this shifty dealer to all the B/S of everything this dealer and harley put me thru.
I also went into great deatails of how the factory rep has treated me as well as the moves he made behind my back to undermine me and flat out lied.
I also explained that when he let me ride the bike to create sumping issue that when I returned to Shenandoah before I could shut the bike off and stop he yelled to me direct within 12" of my face
" you don't even have the right oil pump on your bike and you can't understand why your bike is sumping" and slammed the paperwork invoices on my bike and was blaming me like it was my fault.
That's when I returned conversation explaining to him that I only paid for the parts and install as a kit and that the dealer was the one to yell at and to blame. This is all true by the way.
Mrs Smith said this is all here say and that Harley Davidson has made a decision to repair my bike even when repair parts are not available and that they have done all they can and would do. I started laughing and realized then and there this is a straight up bullchit roadshambo
So I was trying to hold off on releasing the name of the dealership however it would weigh on my soul to know that they could be doing this to more than one customer.
Shenandoah Harley Davidson.
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Looks like your not there first rodeo, this is on there Facebook page(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170915/26d0f946dd62200978e9d93cff979a75.png)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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At this point you really might want to consider tidying up your documentation and consulting an experienced attorney.
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You said they deleted computer records of the numerous times it had been in for this issue. Do you have the documents from the times you dropped it off?
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I think there is quite a bit of evidence in these posts that may help your Attorney, times and dates are all here
for everyone to see.
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Looks like your not there first rodeo, this is on there Facebook page(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170915/26d0f946dd62200978e9d93cff979a75.png)
Yeah I wouldn't doubt it one bit
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I think I've mentioned at least twenty times over the years on this site that people need to insist on a hard copy of the work order each and every time they take the bike in for service, warranty work, etc. Don't let them just blow you off with the famous verbal BS "they all do that" or "we couldn't duplicate the problem". Make them actually put it in writing on an official work order, and give you a legible and complete copy.
The idea that this jerk would tell a dealership to go into their computer records and delete the history on the bike should let everyone know exactly what kind of people Harley has in their employ. Obviously new top management hasn't fixed the corporate culture; they still spend more time trying to weasel out of their responsibilities than they do just trying to fix the problems. And btw, most businesses these days have backups of their computerized systems. Unless this place also deleted all the backups, an attorney might be able to get those backups.
JMHO - Jerry
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I think I've mentioned at least twenty times over the years on this site that people need to insist on a hard copy of the work order each and every time they take the bike in for service, warranty work, etc. Don't let them just blow you off with the famous verbal BS "they all do that" or "we couldn't duplicate the problem". Make them actually put it in writing on an official work order, and give you a legible and complete copy.
The idea that this jerk would tell a dealership to go into their computer records and delete the history on the bike should let everyone know exactly what kind of people Harley has in their employ. Obviously new top management hasn't fixed the corporate culture; they still spend more time trying to weasel out of their responsibilities than they do just trying to fix the problems. And btw, most businesses these days have backups of their computerized systems. Unless this place also deleted all the backups, an attorney might be able to get those backups.
JMHO - Jerry
I have had my bike in for warranty work 3 times, not once did they give me a copy of the repair order, I have been in this line of work all my life so naturally I asked for a copy of the repair order and each time they looked at me like I'm from Mars!
I don't know what kind of system Harley dealers use, but I would assume there similar to systems that are used in the auto world ADP/CDK, Reynolds & Reynolds etc, you maybe able to delete and destroy the paper files, but the system should not let you delete the history in the system and any attorney should be able to request those records through discovery.
But I would also recommend as Jerry said, Ask for a copy of the repair order when you leave your bike and also a completed one when you pick up.
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I have had my bike in for warranty work 3 times, not once did they give me a copy of the repair order, I have been in this line of work all my life so naturally I asked for a copy of the repair order and each time they looked at me like I'm from Mars!
I don't know what kind of system Harley dealers use, but I would assume there similar to systems that are used in the auto world ADP/CDK, Reynolds & Reynolds etc, you maybe able to delete and destroy the paper files, but the system should not let you delete the history in the system and any attorney should be able to request those records through discovery.
But I would also recommend as Jerry said, Ask for a copy of the repair order when you leave your bike and also a completed one when you pick up.
I think your are correct on the system its Reynolds and Reynolds.
In line with the backup thinking, The dealer should have their own backup/cloud AND Harley definitely does. That's how they develop their metrics and monitor failures. Remember there must be a record since they sent a factory rep down to examine the issue. His physical presence is predicated on a record of events that are serious enough to require it.
I am still focused on the goal--Get the Bike Up And Running--Get some gaskets in from HD Corporate and the bike could be up and running again in less than a day. If the dealership Owner or the GM were updated ...together I'll bet the GM would take ownership of the issue again and gaskets could be FedEx'd in by Monday morning.
Also, before you tip your hand, I think you can get copies from HD corporate Customer Support by just asking. Blame the weather, a computer glitch or...
Failing all of that it might be worth pulling the bike and transporting it to another more capable and friendly dealer. Manassas HD used to be good. Check around on the internet. See who is close and who has several PHD mechanics who have been there awhile.
I know for a fact that Tilley's Harley-Davidson could fix it. They are in Statesville, NC. GREAT PEOPLE!!
VERY BEST WISHES FOR A QUICK EXPENSE FREE RESOLUTION.
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I was called this morning by the dealer stating that the local rep ED was sending gaskets next day for today delivery. The dealer said they would have it back together tomorrow. They also are going to add the fairing lower speaker set up.
I am heading out of town to finish a job in Roanoke this week. I had given them a deadline of Monday by noon as the pickup time. Maybe it will be ready. If so the bike is coming with me this week and will be ridden :bananarock:
If I finish up a day or so early we might be able run down to the tail of the dragon :pepper: :drummer:
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I was called this morning by the dealer stating that the local rep ED was sending gaskets next day for today delivery. The dealer said they would have it back together tomorrow. They also are going to add the fairing lower speaker set up.
I am heading out of town to finish a job in Roanoke this week. I had given them a deadline of Monday by noon as the pickup time. Maybe it will be ready. If so the bike is coming with me this week and will be ridden :bananarock:
If I finish up a day or so early we might be able run down to the tail of the dragon :pepper: :drummer:
CONGRATULATIONS!!
I still would ask for copies of all of your service history while everybody is calm and hoping it's finally fixed. You never know what will happen next in a month, or year later.
Best wishes and ride safe!!
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Absolutely. I am going to request that the service request show the actual day it was returned to the dealer this last time which was 8/16/2107 and will hopefully be released on 9/18/2017.
Man I hope this really fixes the problem.
Thanks again
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I was called this morning by the dealer stating that the local rep ED was sending gaskets next day for today delivery. The dealer said they would have it back together tomorrow. They also are going to add the fairing lower speaker set up.
I am heading out of town to finish a job in Roanoke this week. I had given them a deadline of Monday by noon as the pickup time. Maybe it will be ready. If so the bike is coming with me this week and will be ridden :bananarock:
If I finish up a day or so early we might be able run down to the tail of the dragon :pepper: :drummer:
After everything you've reported going through you're hiring more work on the same bike from the same shop?
Never mind. I wouldn't understand anyway.
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This work is old contracted work that they owe to me.
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I know this is very complicated.
However I caught them when they over billed me in this process and then the service manager quit the day before all of this blew up.
So the owner wouldn't agree to pay me in cash but gave me credit.
We had an agreement to install the speaker lowers.
I would rather have them install the lower fairing speakers and take care of my credit so that when my bike is done I can run like hell :orange:
LOL.
They just hired a new service manager so I hope they are on the right track now.
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I know this is very complicated.
However I caught them when they over billed me in this process and then the service manager quit the day before all of this blew up.
So the owner wouldn't agree to pay me in cash but gave me credit.
We had an agreement to install the speaker lowers.
I would rather have them install the lower fairing speakers and take care of my credit so that when my bike is done I can run like hell :orange:
LOL.
They just hired a new service manager so I hope they are on the right track now.
There are a great many words I might use to describe your.... encounter. Unbelievable, incredible, improbable if not all but impossible, bizarre, gawd-awful and quite simply a cluster-f$%* of exo-atmospheric proportions in so many ways. Complicated ain't one of them though.
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There are a great many words I might use to describe your.... encounter. Unbelievable, incredible, improbable if not all but impossible, bizarre, gawd-awful and quite simply a cluster-f$%* of exo-atmospheric proportions in so many ways. Complicated ain't one of them though.
I would whole heartedly agree 100%.
I am just trying to stay as optimistic as possible.
I hope all went well today so that I can get this thing down the road.
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I would whole heartedly agree 100%.
I am just trying to stay as optimistic as possible.
I hope all went well today so that I can get this thing down the road.
Good on ya mate for keeping a chin up. Relatively certain I'd have gone random trajectory ballistic had I dealt with all you've described. Likely not to any benefit but I'd have gone there anyway. So, most definitely, good luck on it finally, eventually, being properly sorted.
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Based on what I've read here it sounds like a pick up issue, the rotary oil pump design is proven and I can't imagine they could actually mess that up, but it is HD, they could mess up a wet dream. Makes absolutely zero sense that changing displacement creates the issue though.
HD went to Sunday school picnic,
and screwed it up big time.
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I ride a bit, have over 18K on my 17 SESG. So far I have not noticed a loss of power. I have done several 600 mile days at 75~80 mph. Not saying it will not happen, and I am watching for it. Bike is pretty much stock except fullsac 2.25 cores.
pass a few cars one or to at a time or a couple semis and your speed is well over 100 mph do it a few times and you will pull out to pass and the motor is not going to accelerate anywhere near what it takes to pass. get it in a slow speed or a stop sign and try to get away from a stop sign and the thing does not have the power to pull away from a stop sign and in a slow speed turn be careful too. the motor will in my experience want to die at these very slow speeds because traffic is backed up. it is a dangerous situation to put it mildly. in situations which require you to get out of the way or keep moving with the flow.
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I have run my stage 3 for 10000 miles with no issues
if your not having any issues your a fortunate person
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Why are we not hearing about more of these bikes sumping with aftermarket stage 4 kits?
Is that they already voided their warranty and they are eating crow or is this just attributed to the harley stage 3 & 4 kits?
Why aren't people like fuel moto, star racing, fullsac having sumping issues?
waiting for an answer on this. very interesting question to be sure
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waiting for an answer on this. very interesting question to be sure
I have 12000 miles pin my stage 3, no issues
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Fortunate
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My dealer said 3-4 ounces would be considered normal and to spec. I'd check a few more times to confirm. BTW there's an SIP from Harley on Sumping with Stage 3/4 builds. #1450. Has anyone actually been able to read it?
FYI, HD now has 4 parts #s (I don't have them yet) for M8 oil pumps. 1 for stock 107 oil cooled M8. 1 for twin-cooled M8 114/107s. 1 for stage 3/4 107 oil-cooled M8s. 1 for stage 3/4 twin-cooled M8s.
My understanding is that the new M8 Stage 3/4 kits being released in mid-July will include the new "performance" oil pumps.
[/quote anyone have a a part number for the latest, and greatest pump for the 114 to the 117" ? would like to see that number
Thanks
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My dealer said 3-4 ounces would be considered normal and to spec. I'd check a few more times to confirm. BTW there's an SIP from Harley on Sumping with Stage 3/4 builds. #1450. Has anyone actually been able to read it?
FYI, HD now has 4 parts #s (I don't have them yet) for M8 oil pumps. 1 for stock 107 oil cooled M8. 1 for twin-cooled M8 114/107s. 1 for stage 3/4 107 oil-cooled M8s. 1 for stage 3/4 twin-cooled M8s.
My understanding is that the new M8 Stage 3/4 kits being released in mid-July will include the new "performance" oil pumps.
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Well I was able to pick my bike up from the dealer last Monday.
I worked out of town last week and was able to run down to the tail of the dragon for a few days at the end of last week.
The bike is running much better with no signs of sumping so far.
However I have a check engine light that appears once the bike reaches around 200 degrees. When I check the code it reads can- bus error.
They never fixed the tpms problem which is still flashing.
I was also fortunate to receive the complimentary scratches that the mechanic deemed fit to send back with me. Total bull chit after what I have been through. My bike comes back with a scratch on the rear fender, scratch on the top saddle bag lid, scratches on the brand new heads, scratches on blacked out windshield trim, scratches on both side covers, scratches on my blacked out brake pedal.
On my way back home I stopped by to show the scratches to the dealer, explain the check engine light and tpms, the so called mechanic was there but had supposedly left to go to the store.
Total BS.
The acting puppet service manager told me he would have to check with the owner and call me back which he hasn't done yet.
Not only have I paid $50k and had this bike down most of the summer with half assed bullchit service but when they return my bike it is scratched all to hell when I was very clear about the bike being spotless when I dropped it off.
Shenandoah Harley Davidson are nothing more than a bunch of lying, half assed scum bags.
So I now have a scratched up bike with check engine lights, tpms lights flashing and dealing with such incompetent people :soapbox:
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Unreal.
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Unreal.
Al I can say is WOW! it just keeps getting better and better!
I hate to take a bike in for repairs and always worried about damage being done to the bike, where I have been taking mine for warranty work, they look over the bike with you present and you sign off on the condition it was dropped off, then when you pick it up they do another walk around with you and you sign off on that one as well.
I took mine in about 2 months ago for a replacement gas tank, the service advisor calls me up and says we have a problem, after replacing the tank, the tech took it for a road test, they claim when he went under a bridge, debris from ODOT working on it fell and damaged the new tank, I don't believe them, the chances of that happening have to be slim, I think the tech dropped a wrench on it, if debris fell from a bridge you would think it would have damaged other parts like the faring. Any rate they ordered another tank and I made them change it while I waited!
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Al I can say is WOW! it just keeps getting better and better!
I hate to take a bike in for repairs and always worried about damage being done to the bike, where I have been taking mine for warranty work, they look over the bike with you present and you sign off on the condition it was dropped off, then when you pick it up they do another walk around with you and you sign off on that one as well.
I took mine in about 2 months ago for a replacement gas tank, the service advisor calls me up and says we have a problem, after replacing the tank, the tech took it for a road test, they claim when he went under a bridge, debris from ODOT working on it fell and damaged the new tank, I don't believe them, the chances of that happening have to be slim, I think the tech dropped a wrench on it, if debris fell from a bridge you would think it would have damaged other parts like the faring. Any rate they ordered another tank and I made them change it while I waited!
get in contact with them, and find out if indeed they were really on that bridge at whatever time if at all.
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....
Shenandoah Harley Davidson are nothing more than a bunch of lying, half assed scum bags.
So I now have a scratched up bike with check engine lights, tpms lights flashing and dealing with such incompetent people :soapbox:
That dealership hasn't been the same since it was sold a few years ago... It was (at one time) my dealership but since it was sold it no longer is (I use Stonewall [formerly Waugh] for purchasing H-D parts/accessories/clothing when I purchase locally). There are a couple independent shops in the area (one of which I use primarily for service and installation of stuff I can't do and would recommend them if you're interested).
BTW... since you are/were using Shenandoah are you local to the area???
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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You didn't say ... how's the stereo sound now? :drink:
So, you rode it a few hundred miles and then went back to show them the scratches? I'll be surprised if they don't push back on that.
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Stereo sounds great.
The scratches were discovered once I cleaned the bike after their work.
I wouldn't be surprised they try some shady stuff like that.
I am just sick to my stomach about the whole situation. But it is what it is at this point.
Unfortunately I have learned first hand that the owner of the dealership is very low class.
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Stereo sounds great.
The scratches were discovered once I cleaned the bike after their work.
I wouldn't be surprised they try some shady stuff like that.
I am just sick to my stomach about the whole situation. But it is what it is at this point.
Unfortunately I have learned first hand that the owner of the dealership is very low class.
The dealership may be at fault but I think all the guys that like the “blackout look” have a hard lesson ahead. There’s a reason why so many high wear parts like wheels, forks, exhaust, consoles, hand controls, foot controls, levers, hinges have historically been chromed.
Its not just because it looks good. Its because its extremely durable. I think Harley has gone in a bad direction with all the “soft” painted black out parts particularly where they will be sand blasted or rubbed by leather boots and leather gloves. All these black out bikes will be smothered in scratches and nicks and divots in less than 5000 miles.
We all know that black shows EVERY imperfection. Its my prediction that all these blacked out bikes will look like crap in a few short years while the earlier chrome bikes will still look terrific with a nice wash and wipe down. Personally, I’ll never be on a blacked out bike and I think after a few short years, guys on blacked out bikes will no longer be wondering why their fathers and grandfathers loved all that chrome on their motorcycles.
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The dealership may be at fault but I think all the guys that like the “blackout look” have a hard lesson ahead. There’s a reason why so many high wear parts like wheels, forks, exhaust, consoles, hand controls, foot controls, levers, hinges have historically been chromed.
Its not just because it looks good. Its because its extremely durable. I think Harley has gone in a bad direction with all the “soft” painted black out parts particularly where they will be sand blasted or rubbed by leather boots and leather gloves. All these black out bikes will be smothered in scratches and nicks and divots in less than 5000 miles.
We all know that black shows EVERY imperfection. Its my prediction that all these black out bikes will look like crap in a few short years while the earlier chrome bikes still look terrific with a nice wash and wipe down. Personally, I’ll never be on a blacked out bike and I think after a few short years guys on blacked out bikes will no longer be wondering why their fathers and grandfathers loved all that chrome on their motorcycles.
::)
never really thought of it that way, but you may prove to be "spot on" with how it will be after some length of time. :nixweiss:
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never really thought of it that way, but you may prove to be "spot on" with how it will be after some length of time. :nixweiss:
Here’s another thought for you. The MoCo is making a ton more money on all this “black out” trim. They make more money multiple ways.
- quality triple plate chroming is expensive and getting more expensive because of the epa. Quality triple plating requires copper, nickel and chrome plating. Eliminating chrome plating saves a ton of $.
- HD charges more for black out while the painting costs far less. Cha ching! Talk about taking advantage of a fad trend!
- triple plated chrome strongly resists corrosion. Scratched paint easily corrodes the underlying metal. Cha ching!
- the second owner of a bike is gonna want the black trim to be refreshed and likely buy all new trim parts just to get rid of the scratches and swirls. Its very difficult to get all the scratches out of curved parts and small trim parts. It’ll be easier to just buy replacement black trim....Cha ching!
Its a home run for the MoCo. Black out costs less, less EPA issues, they can charge more, doesn’t last as long. What’s not to like from their perspective? The blacked out bike owners may love the look when they take delivery but I believe they will regret all the scratches in a few short years.
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i got a blacked out bike and its not that terrible to take care of, painted parts (tank,fenders ect) dont wear as well as the powder coated parts and it helps if some one working on it gives a ship too. and will say the chrome on the rental is easier to cleanup and more forgiving ... its just a damn shame what this fellow is dealing with harleynut i feel for ya
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I can deal with the scratches if I was the one liable for them.
However I didn't pay for them to add the scratches no matter the color of my bike.
It just pisses me off when they damage the bike under their care.
An All black bike doesn't scare me in today's time if you take care of it.
Harley accessory parts chrome is very cheap as well so no difference in wear quality versus the other.
I bought the hard slate candy with arctic black 17 CVO SG
The bike really looks so much better blacked out and then I installed the Dakota digital gauges and the black gauge pods. This really completed the look.
Much better looking bike than being offered in the 18 model year.
I just need to have them fix the check engine and tpms issue.
It sure would be nice to finish out the riding season strong and trouble free.
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I sold my Black 15 CVO SG after 5000 miles just because the black was soo hard to keep clean. Black looked like it had new scratches every time after washing, even with micro fiber rags.
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I sold my Black 15 CVO SG after 5000 miles just because the black was soo hard to keep clean. Black looked like it had new scratches every time after washing, even with micro fiber rags.
Unfortunately micro fiber rags just make alot more micro scratches which become very visible on the soft black trim pieces.
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Unfortunately micro fiber rags just make alot more micro scratches which become very visible on the soft black trim pieces.
:confused5:
I'm not understanding how a micro fiber cloth is (making a lot more micro scratches). Either these (soft black trim pieces) are now being made of some material too soft to really be used on a motorcycle, or the guy doing the cleaning/polishing is not doing the job correctly.........re: dirty cloth or excessive dry wiping or whatever.
I have a '14 SG Special and it is black and I often clean off the front fairing below the windshield with a micro fiber. No problems/no scratches. :nixweiss:
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:confused5:
I'm not understanding how a micro fiber cloth is (making a lot more micro scratches). Either these (soft black trim pieces) are now being made of some material too soft to really be used on a motorcycle, or the guy doing the cleaning/polishing is not doing the job correctly.........re: dirty cloth or excessive dry wiping or whatever.
I have a '14 SG Special and it is black and I often clean off the front fairing below the windshield with a micro fiber. No problems/no scratches. :nixweiss:
Try it. Clean the black trim (not the fairing) with a clean microfiber cloth and report back.
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There are two principal manufacturers of microfiber, China and Korea. Typically the big box stores that sell the big packs of microfiber cloths Source them from China. You'll notice that those will typically be grabby on the skin particularly if you have dry skin and sometimes feel like Velcro. Those will leave scratches and micro abrasions.
Most reputable detailing companies source their premium microfiber from Korea which is held to a much higher standard than China. It is very soft,supple and will not cause micro abrasions or scratches. A good source for premium non marring microfiber is a company like Adam's polishes or equivalent.
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I am not trying to perpetuate this off-topic subject, but microfiber can and will scratch paint. My friend owns a Mercedes dealership and their detailers only ever use 100% cotton, nothing synthetic. I always have and always will, use nothing but 100% cotton to both wash and dry my bike.
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High quality microfiber doesn't scratch by itself, but of course any particles embedded in it will. Btw, unfortunately these days there is a lot of pure crap out of China being sold as microfiber. You aren't going to find the good stuff at cut rate prices.
I've noticed a lot of comments in recent years from people who claim to never use a hose or water when cleaning their bike. I don't care what kind of cloth or detail spray they use when wiping down a dirty bike, they will get scratches. The first part of a proper wash, IMHO, is rinsing off as much of the dirt and debris as possible before touching the surface with any kind of sponge/cloth/towel/etc. It also makes a difference if you rub in circles versus cleaning in straight lines. Swirl marks aren't caused by straight line wiping, if you know what I mean.
If the black gloss Harley uses had a properly catalyzed and fully cured clear coat finish, it's unlikely people would be seeing visible scratches and swirls after one or two cleanings. I have no idea what material they are using, but it sounds cheap and soft based on all the comments.
JMHO - Jerry
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I called yesterday to schedule an appointment with Shenandoah Harley to address the check engine light as well as the tpms which they didn't repair.
I was informed by their acting service manager that the owner of the company told him my bike isn't welcome back to his shop.
So they over charge me, lie to me on more than one occasion, ruin my entire riding season, actually damaged my property while in their possession, return the product to me with check engine light on which the bike never had, didn't fix the tpms as they were supposed to do.
Then the POS owner washes his hands of my bike as if he did nothing wrong.
If that is the way Canadians do business to come down here and buy companies, fire everyone involved in the business that is honest and then hand selects trained crooks to execute his dirty and crooked business practices.
Then we don't need them in our country.
Not one ounce of pride or dignity in him or his wife as they have no respect for their customers let alone their employees and it really shows.
I have recently found out about his reputation with the local harley riders. They have all abandoned Shenandoah Harley. I found out that all of the good mechanics left that dump and went to work for a local company.
The owners do not release their names and if they do call you it is from a number that cannot be traced back to them.
They are very skilled at this game as I understand they own POS car dealerships in Canada.
When I informed him of the VA LEMON LAW he couldn't get my bike thrown together fast enough and out of the doors and will not allow it back in his shop.
Even when his half assed mechanic messed my bike up, scratched it all to hell and then pushes me out the door.
I have never encountered such an event in my life.
They refused to provide me with a final service invoice for the repairs.
The owner had his employees scam me out of real hard earned cash and execute such a horrible customer service experience that I am about done with Harley as you know they are working hand in hand behind the scenes.
The owners first names are Lyndt and Michelle.
Once I can get a bead on their last name I will let everyone know so that the crooks are exposed.
Pure trash from the bottom to the top.
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Is there any attorney can do for you at this point? Why should you, or anyone, accept this.
I still think there's someone at corporate Harley who finds this situation far beyond acceptable.
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Is there any attorney can do for you at this point? Why should you, or anyone, accept this.
I still think there's someone at corporate Harley who finds this situation far beyond acceptable.
I tried contacting the CEO MATT LEVOTICH with no avail. Tried his assistant with no success.
Was sent thru to their customer service supervisor to get a stonewall heartless not so kind lady.
I am just done with this entire pain in the ass situation.
Harley customer service is horrendous.
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At this point it appears you have been royally screwed. Another dealership can still take care of warranty work (you don't have to take the bike to the selling dealer), but warranty isn't going to pay for the damage done by the previous dealership, nor will it pay your consequential damages such as lost deposits, lost riding time, etc. If you don't want to hire an attorney or contact the State Attorney General's office, I don't know what other options you have besides just fixing everything at your own expense and chalking the whole thing up to a lesson learned, assuming it has been learned.
Jerry
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I was able to find out the last name of the scum bag owners of Shenandoah Harley Davidson. They are Lindt & Michelle Hurdman from Canada. They do not own anymore car dealerships and only own this harley dealership now.
I went by the dealership today to pick up a few leftover parts left there which they couldn't find by the way. When I was there I bumped in to an ex employee that I thought still worked there.
To make a long story short he told me while he worked there that he bought a 2015 street bob.
He bought the bike and rode it for 3500 miles, one day he gets a call from his boss telling him he needs to ride the bike back in and swap it out. They titled and financed a different street bob with more miles and an odd ball color. Hook line and sinker
They won't refund him or even swap the bikes out and stuck him with it. I guess that's one way to sell an odd ball colored bike.
Needless to say the employee chose a more reputable employer.
Also spoke to another ex employee that left during my debacle who witnessed most of the situation first hand. He told me today that he had to leave the dealership because of all of the wrong doings that they have going on over there at Shenandoah Harley.
They are running a very unethical business to have those Canadians pulling strings screwing the local community and making the people he hires to be the ones that executes the crooked transactions. This other ex employee just left there to go to a more reputable dealership with better opportunities but was also slighted a lot of cash owed to him by Shenandoah Harley Davidson. So they are also not only screwing their customers out of hard earned cash they are also screwing their employees out of their pay as well.
I am going to continue to dig up as much crap on these scum bags as possible to expose their unethical business practices to everyone that will listen to me.
I want to send a clear message to them
That's not how business is done here in the United States of America, we actually stand up for our values, morals and ethics.
I am about unleash hell on to those scum bags.
Now I have several witnesses willing to join me as well as a few more willing to speak about it.
I will promise Lindt & Michelle one thing, he has screwed the wrong guy this time.
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Giddy up. :orange: :mango: :apple: :pineapple: :2vrolijk_21: