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[SPIDERMAN]

TC
             Incredible post. I live for days when this site provides me with insight into my fellow man as you and other have on this thread

Hogbreath,
               Hard to add much to what you said beyond saying I totally enjoy reading posts like yours.

JR,
               Hope you're not reading too deep into what I am saying. I am trying to see what other folks think about my theory of One GOD for all religions. I honestly feel that dealing with matters of faith has a deep influence on how we live our lives as Hogbreath has pointed out. So all in all this thread IS a good vehicle to discuss anything which causes us to stop and consider what we are doing and why. Please understand JR that I do not for a single moment disrespect you or your conviction. I do however want you to understand that while I share your basic desire to be a better man I believe the answers to life are found in the teachings of all of GOD's messengers. I also believe that GOD INTENDED his message to be diverse and for man to come to understand that HE is everything and everything is HE. Look at the spiritualism of our native American breathren. While they did not know of Jesus Christ, they believed in The Great Spirit and his influence in all aspects of their lives and they understood that it was their path to respect each other and all of the things The Great Spirit provided them in their lives. And while not ever being exposed to the gospel they also understood that there was an after life awaiting them and that they would be judged for their time on earth. How would you explain the commonality of that and the teachings of Jesus and his disciples if not for the connection with GOD. One GOD for all. Throughout the history of mankind this theme runs through every faith like a river. I had hoped Twolane would chime in on this thread as he is a fountain of historical reference and connotations. My point is not to question anyone's beliefs. My point is to show how we are all connected. If the 20th Century is remembered for anything, it should be remembered for the fact that we as mankind became so diverse, we became divided. In wanting to be a better man, I seek to find ways to bring us back together. As Hogbreath has pointed out above, This SITE in a small way is an example of that. We do trust each other more than is considered normal by any standard of modern society. Why is that ? I can't say beyond again to agree that perhaps due to circumstance, a group of people at similar points in their lives have come together with a common interest and the bonds of friendship that have grown and continue to grow from that common interest fuels other aspects of our lives which we feel the need to share - - - - - like me reaching out here and asking folks what they think about life, religion and whatever they choose to post about. I've said it before, this site is to me a gathering place where anything and everything can and is discussed. In the short time I've been on the site, I've seen it mature to where we now discuss issues that often become heated for the most part with respect for each other.

B B

[SEULTRA]

B B...Even the Christians of the world cannot agree about which form is the "right" form, and will lead a soul to Heaven.  I live in an area of the country where Southern Baptists control many aspects of government and public life, and shun those who do not subscribe to their specific way of thinking.  I work with them every day.  Many of them will stick one in you and break it off if given the chance, and think it's all OK if they go to church that Sunday, then come in Monday and do the same thing again.  Christianity, as a Philosophy of Life, is one of many great ways to live life by.  There are certainly others equally viable, and for any one group to consider theirs as the only "true" one is more than arrogant, it's ludicrous.

I hope nobody thinks the worse of me for this, but Religion is the invention of man in a vain attempt to define the meaning of his own existence.  Predominant thought believes we are the only animals on the planet who are conscious of our own ultimate death (I personally think that is arrogant as well).  Because we have an opposable thumb (and a bit more frontal cortex than 90% of other animals) and have figured out ways to communicate with each other, we are able to discuss and write about our fear of death.  We tell stories (myths) about things in feeble attempts to justify our beliefs, values, and fears.  Some have a basis in fact, some do not.  Most are exaggerated, some are mere fabrication.  Some are good stories, and should be taken to heart and moral lessons withdrawn.  Few should be taken literally.

I do not need a structure for what I know in my heart to be the right way to treat both other beings and the planet.  I have seen human beings do horrible things both to each other and other living things.  Some people find comfort within the structure of Religious Doctrine (or Dogma, depending), and for them, particularly if it gives them a reason to be better humans while on this earth, it is a good path to choose.  I know the right way to be without the necessity of that structure.  Not that I haven't failed at times in my life, but I can honestly look at myself in the mirror every morning and know that I have treated people as well as they will allow me to treat them.  I remove myself from the others.  I think that most everyone has goodness in them, they just forget where it is, and how to find it sometimes, and Religion can help them. Some people do not have any good in them.  They don't need to be here.

I think we get one chance, and this is it.  Do the right thing.  Touch people kindly in whatever way you are able.  Leave something good here for the children and all the other living things we share space with.  People will remember you if you do these things.  The memories are what matters...make them good ones.

And just when I was beginning to think there was no one on this planet that thought like me.... thanks for the thoughtful insight. I hope I get to meet you some day.

[SPIDERMAN]

And just when I was beginning to think there was no one on this planet that thought like me.... thanks for the thoughtful insight. I hope I get to meet you some day.

SEULTRA
            Beyond thinking like TC, what's your $0.02. I know it's not always easy to dig down and open up and let a bunch of strangers know what you're thinking, but damn dude, it feels good sometimes to vent a bit. But even if you don't, Thanks for participating.

B B

[SneakyPete]

I would imagine given the demographics of H-D riders in general, and more to the point, CVO owners that a lot of you find yourself in my position. My daughters are adults and now I'm feeling to some degree;  Now what ?  Yes, this insane addiction I have to my H-D's is filling the void but for some time I've been pondering what my goal(s) are or should be for the remainder of my life. This site often offers a better glimpse of life than any other form of information dissemination available to me. Given the cross section of society represented within the membership one can glean some valuable life lessons as well as all of the usefull information we share about CVO's and Harley-Davidson motorcycles in general. Not that he is the only example, but I single out JR as someone who has opened my eyes to being a better person. It's one thing to say you're a Christian as many do, it's another thing to actually be one. And by that I mean actually practice the things Christianity teaches us in loving our fellow man and doing unto others and so forth. So lately my goal is simply to become a better man. To be straightforward and honest in everything I do and to put into practice the things I expound upon in some of my musings on this site. I do not know where this is going to lead, only that it is the path I have chosen for myself for now and the future. It is a path without a roadmap, for much as I respect JR, I do not consider myself a Christian. I have a deep faith in GOD and a belief in the natural order of things. But I do not believe in one true religion as being the path to heaven. There is much good in the teachings of Christ and lessons for us all, but there is also good in the teachings of some of the other of the world's great religions. I truly hope that in posting this, I do not upset anyone. It is certainly not my intent. The greatness of America is that it derives it's strength from it's diversity, not from it's sameness. Don't know if any of this touches a cord with anyone else, but it's something that's been coming together in my mind since I was in the ICU after my knee surgery. While it might not seem it since I'm known for running off on these kind of posts, some of what I've stated here has taken me awhile to be willing to admit openly. But in deciding to be a better man, I also have to be willing to state who and what I am.

B B

BB, it never ceases to amaze me when people express their beliefs in a forum like this that I find pieces of my own beliefs in each one.  Probably for the same reason we share the brotherhood of riding on two wheels and congregate on this site.   I would, however, like to comment on the first portion of your original post. I too, have raised three adults and find myself searching for what to do next.  Similar to your experience, two years ago I developed a DVT in my leg which I ignored until a clot broke loose and went to my lungs.  Next thing I know I am in the ICU and my doctor is telling my wife of 29 years that he will do everything he can do, but I might not make it.  Well here I am, mainly due to my belief that it just wasn't my time and God was giving me another chance.  But another chance to do what?  I don't know.  Two years ago I never thought of riding a motorcycle, today I put more miles on my bike than I do on my car.  Like TC, I am surrounded by those who do not practice what they preach and the hypocrisy of it all has turned me off to "practicing" any particular religion.  For me, I am going to do the best I can and treat others as I would like them to treat me, do what is just and fair, then when it is my time, I will let God decide if I make the grade.  I really believe that's all we can do. 

[SEULTRA]

SEULTRA
            Beyond thinking like TC, what's your $0.02. I know it's not always easy to dig down and open up and let a bunch of strangers know what you're thinking, but damn dude, it feels good sometimes to vent a bit. But even if you don't, Thanks for participating.

B B

Well... since you asked...
A little background... I was raised in a working class family and lived on the poor side of the tracks. We had what I call a Saturday Evening Post family... a Chevrolet in the driveway and a Collie dog in the yard. I was a boy scout that attained the rank of Life scout, belonged to a scout honor organization called Order of the Arrow, read and studied the bible (and can still quote many passages), went to Sunday school and church every Sunday, sang in the choir, belonged to a church youth organization, polished my shoes every Saturday night to get ready for Sunday and wore hand-me-down church clothes. I had the all American upbringing and foundation.
Why do I give you this background? To help you understand that when I talk about what I believe in today that it is based on a background of exposure to a certain lifestyle and upbringing. I was brought up a certain way and my beliefs have evolved. I'm content and secure in my values and beliefs and that's a good place to be in my book. What do I believe? Well much of what TC said speaks to it. I believe people have the right to practice whatever faith they choose but that they need to understand that not all share their faith. When I left home at 17 I looked inwardly and despite my religious upbringing I found that I really didn't believe in any deity and didn't feel the need for organized religion. What I discovered was that I admired people that were honest, caring, loving, cheerful, friendly, helpful and liked to have fun but not at the expense of others, who meant what they said and who stood up and defended those that couldn't stand up for themselves. I decided that I wanted these be my guiding principals in my life and they have served me well.
I found I didn't like liars, cheaters, deceivers and those who were content to enrich themselves at the expense of others and I avoid their company.
I have most certainly faltered along life's path from time to time but overall I feel good about who I am and what I've done with my life. I served my country honorably for 22 years and raised a fine son that I am immensely proud of. I married my high school sweetheart and we just celebrated 35 years together. I have 3 wonderful granddaughters. How can I ask for more?
So.... that's where I'm coming from. Remember... you asked.

[SPIDERMAN]

Well... since you asked...
A little background... I was raised in a working class family and lived on the poor side of the tracks. We had what I call a Saturday Evening Post family... a Chevrolet in the driveway and a Collie dog in the yard. I was a boy scout that attained the rank of Life scout, belonged to a scout honor organization called Order of the Arrow, read and studied the bible (and can still quote many passages), went to Sunday school and church every Sunday, sang in the choir, belonged to a church youth organization, polished my shoes every Saturday night to get ready for Sunday and wore hand-me-down church clothes. I had the all American upbringing and foundation.
Why do I give you this background? To help you understand that when I talk about what I believe in today that it is based on a background of exposure to a certain lifestyle and upbringing. I was brought up a certain way and my beliefs have evolved. I'm content and secure in my values and beliefs and that's a good place to be in my book. What do I believe? Well much of what TC said speaks to it. I believe people have the right to practice whatever faith they choose but that they need to understand that not all share their faith. When I left home at 17 I looked inwardly and despite my religious upbringing I found that I really didn't believe in any deity and didn't feel the need for organized religion. What I discovered was that I admired people that were honest, caring, loving, cheerful, friendly, helpful and liked to have fun but not at the expense of others, who meant what they said and who stood up and defended those that couldn't stand up for themselves. I decided that I wanted these be my guiding principals in my life and they have served me well.
I found I didn't like liars, cheaters, deceivers and those who were content to enrich themselves at the expense of others and I avoid their company.
I have most certainly faltered along life's path from time to time but overall I feel good about who I am and what I've done with my life. I served my country honorably for 22 years and raised a fine son that I am immensely proud of. I married my high school sweetheart and we just celebrated 35 years together. I have 3 wonderful granddaughters. How can I ask for more?
So.... that's where I'm coming from. Remember... you asked.

You'll find a lot of bikers who were scouts. Didn't have the whole issue with the gay thing back then. I was an Eagle Scout, Bronze and Silver palms. Order of the Arrow (WWW remember what the words are ?) We had a 66 Chevy wagon and my folks always had Beagles. My dad loved to listen to em howl when they got on trail. Mom went to YWCA meetings once a month and my dad coached little league. Mom dragged us off to church every Sunday ( her grandfather was a Baptist Minister- - had jis own church in Winchendon Mass although we lived in Maine. Folks have a little cracker box house I grew up in in Portland and a huge " summer " place ( camp in Maine lingo) on Sebago Lake they stay in so long as the lake's not frozen. I never heard my dad swear till I was in high school and don't think my mom's ever uttered a cuss word. Saw my first unclothed woman at the county fair when I was about 16. Me and the boys snuck in under the tent flap. Total jock in high school and played football and was a weight man at the University of Maine Orono. Sounds all too Norman Rockwell compared to the way my kids grew up. For whatever reason I found it necessary to be a 1% Biker for 15 years. Wierd though because my kids are further ahead in life than I was at their age and seem pretty grounded. Guess I was fairly strict with them since I knew where the tracks were and what was on the other side in a big way. So now they're grown although the youngest moved back in a month ago. ( no problem with me, but she and her mom sure do go at it sometimes) Anyway, someone once asked if an unexamined life was worth living. Absolutely - - I wish I were capable of it sometimes. How easy it must be to get up everyday and just BE . No thought, no worry, just live. But then I wonder if people like that actually live or simply exist. Whatever suits each in their own way, so long as it doesn't affect me or run the world down the wrong path. Anyway, I think a lot. Funny thing, of all people I saw Cher on TV on one of those interview shows like Larry King or something. The interviewer asked her what she wanted out of life now, did she want a partner etc and she said. Yes she was hoping to meet a man who thought deep thoughts. Typical Cher, but I got what she meant. Anyway, it's cool to read what folks have got to say about just life in general. Makes me think of that John Denver song. " I've been lately thinking about my lifetime - - - - lie there by the fire, and watch the evening tire while all my friends and my old lady sit and pass the pipe around "  Sometimes this site makes me feel like I'm sittin by the fire listening to my friends pass the time of day. Thanks for that, all of you

B B

[Midnight Rider]

B B....here's some Lyrics you might find interesting/thought provoking...

What would it gain me
If I was to go
Like Jacob of old
To the well of the world
To wax halls where candles
Burn on through the day
To light you a path
So you'd never lose your way

I was down in the valley
Where the shadows are long
The birds in the harp tree
Were singing this song
There is time to deliver
Time to receive
All that you're lacking
Of whatever you need

Turn around
Bye the bye
You'll still
See the sea
As it was in the dawning
As it always will be

So raise up your bottle
And drink down the blood
You planted the vine here
In spite of the flood
Turn an ear to the harp tree
An eye to the wall
The songs in the singing
Or nowhere at all

No where to come from
No place to retire
No shelter nowhere
Except in the fire
The birds in the harp tree
Can finish their song
Then rest in its branches
Which is where they belong

But where can a man go
That's sweet to his soul
When his time is not ready
But he's still turning old
Here's a dram for the piper
And a tune for his lady
Outside the thin walls
The waves are still raging

Here's one for the harp tree
And one for his song
One for the morning
When the night was too long
Here's one for the candle
That lights you to bed
And one for the sword
That hangs over your head

Author: Robert Hunter

[harleydiva]

I am a very spiritual person and believe in the Golden Rule.

My father was a Southern Baptist preacher who preached hell, fire and damnation.  He, along with many of the deacons in the church, were extreme hypocrits.  My father had two faces ... the one that the church members and the public saw, and the one that his family saw. 

To this day it baffles me that there are so many demoninations, some even believing that if you are not a member of their demonination you are going to hell.  If all of these people indeed believe there is a God and are Christians, why isn't there just one church?

[SPIDERMAN]

I am a very spiritual person and believe in the Golden Rule.

My father was a Southern Baptist preacher who preached hell, fire and damnation.  He, along with many of the deacons in the church, were extreme hypocrits.  My father had two faces ... the one that the church members and the public saw, and the one that his family saw. 

To this day it baffles me that there are so many demoninations, some even believing that if you are not a member of their demonination you are going to hell.  If all of these people indeed believe there is a God and are Christians, why isn't there just one church?

Ahhhhhhhhhh thre crux of what I've been asking all along

[HogBreath]

Just food for thought. There are many many churches and denominations out there, but, there is only one truth.

P.S. I don't believe just one denominations will go to heaven.

[SEULTRA]

BB... Yes, I do remember what WWW stands for and still never utter the words to anyone other than a fellow OA member. Isn't that something? Some things just stick with you. Eagle with palms huh?? Impressive! I know the kind of effort it takes to attain that and it's all the more impressive that it's done at an age when others are caught up with the frills & fluff of adolescence. Interesting that you were a 1% biker. Funny how life takes us in different directions. I had always wanted to be a police officer but never did. Life just took me in a different direction. It used to bother me but now I just look at it with interest and figure that perhaps it was just meant to be.
I like this thread. It offers insight into others perspectives and values. I like hearing about the way others grew up and where they are at today. I'd like to hear from others & hope they chime in.
  Diva ... I too try to live by the golden rule. It's a solid, grounded principle that can really make a difference in our lives. 

Bikers ... I love 'em!

[MJZ]

BB, very interesting topic. I appreciate you bringing this open discussion forth. Like many of us on this site, I'm a baby boomer that has spent 56 years searching for my "happy place". I've walked a lot of miles down many paths looking for the right answers for me and at this point in my life, I think I have finally figured out the so called "happy place" for me is inner peace. The really hard question is how to find it; religion, emotional security, material security, relationships, etc. Since I am still on this journey, I really appreciate the thoughts posted.
Again Brian, great topic and thanks for opening the box thus providing a venue in which we can search and share. 

[harleydiva]

Inner peace, emotional security, relationships all go hand in hand.  My mother always said I was "tender hearted".  A good heart goes a long way in acquiring inner peace if it is shared.       From reading all of the posts, it seems that everyone has his or her way of acquiring peace. 

Peace to all of my CVO cyberfriends and to those friends with whom we've met and ridden.       

[SPIDERMAN]

BB, very interesting topic. I appreciate you bringing this open discussion forth. Like many of us on this site, I'm a baby boomer that has spent 56 years searching for my "happy place". I've walked a lot of miles down many paths looking for the right answers for me and at this point in my life, I think I have finally figured out the so called "happy place" for me is inner peace. The really hard question is how to find it; religion, emotional security, material security, relationships, etc. Since I am still on this journey, I really appreciate the thoughts posted.
Again Brian, great topic and thanks for opening the box thus providing a venue in which we can search and share. 

Thanks for the compliment. It'd be great if more folks would join in, but most folks are reticent when it comes to talking religion and politics believing them to be a sure fire way to argument and strife. My whole point with this thread was to see if we might find a way to have an intelligent and friendly discussion of one of those subjects, and maybe just a philisophical chat about life in general. So far the folks that have responded have lived up to my hope. I'm hoping more will join in.

Vaya con Dios
                        B B

[HUBBARD]

Ahhhhhhhhhh thre crux of what I've been asking all along

I'm an amateur on the Bible, but I have read it from cover to cover once.  Since that I sorta' read my favorite passages.  My reading time of that Great Document did not produce any particular denominations.  Where they all came from is a mystery to me.  Later--HUBBARD