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longlast

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Charging fault
« on: May 02, 2017, 06:08:28 AM »

The other day I rode into town about a 3 mile run. As l was riding l noticed the charge light had come on and the gauge reading zero charge. I pulled over straight away and with the motor running I pulled off the seat to check the battery connections and all seemed to be good. After putting the seat back l noticed the charge was back up and working.      I'm thinking it's a ground fault, but not sure where to look for the charging system grounds or if it would be a ground problem?

Q. Any suggestions as to where I should be looking/checking.
If it's happened once it's most likely to happen again. Next time I'm afraid it won't correct it's self.
I've been out a couple of times and it been working so far.

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ultrafxr

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2017, 07:58:29 AM »

 Sounds like the voltage regulator failing. Had exact same symptoms on three different Harleys.


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Trapperdog

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2017, 10:33:47 AM »

Remove and clean the Batt terminals (and engine ground if possible)  first per manual. Check voltage at idle and higher RPM with a hand held volt meter to confirm charging and Batt condition and keep the meter onboard to re check if the problem arises again. As it's intermittent, it's most likely a battery, connection, R&R (regulator/rectifier), or loose or broken rotor magnet problem and should not involve the stator. Failing R&R's can exhibit differing charging characteristics under differing conditions such as heat and load so keeping a log of conditions and voltages can be helpful in diagnostics. Although few do, I have digital volt meters mounted on all my bikes as I have high load accessories.  Although not highly accurate, I can instantly view any anomalies
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longlast

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2017, 02:07:00 PM »

OK, will do said checks. I did a battery check when I got back home and it was good. Also did a code check it was reading PO553 (think that was the number) anyway it was for low battery voltage as l was not surprised cause of no charge.
I was out for a couple of hours today running some errands short stop and starts and had no problems. Home all day tomorrow I'll be digging into it and do a good poke around see what l can find.

 :2vrolijk_21:
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Twolanerider

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2017, 07:28:16 PM »

Always worthwhile to do the free and easy checks of cables first.  Sounds like a voltage regulator though. 
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longlast

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2017, 11:19:25 AM »

                                                    UP DATE

Did a check of what grounds l could find today all were tight and good. I thought about pulling the fairing off but didn't. I suppose there could be a problem with a connection in the wiring there.
Not sure where the voltage regulator is located have to take a look on YouTube see what l can find.
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ultrafxr

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2017, 12:39:54 PM »

                                                    UP DATE

Did a check of what grounds l could find today all were tight and good. I thought about pulling the fairing off but didn't. I suppose there could be a problem with a connection in the wiring there.
Not sure where the voltage regulator is located have to take a look on YouTube see what l can find.
The voltage regulator sits atop the oil cooler and between the frame downtubes.  See photo item # 12.  I can just about guarantee you that this is your problem.  I had very early failures on both my '06 cuse and my '12 cuse7.  But my '07 cuse2 like yours lasted for over 60k miles.  I was out of town and had to take it to a dealer who checked the entire charging system and found no problem because like yours it had temporarily self corrected.  But I had them change out the voltage regulator nonetheless based on my previous experiences and I had no more problem.

The CVOs have a chrome regulator but dealers almost never stock these - just the black version.  So you'll most likely have to special order one if you want the chrome like came on your bike.

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longlast

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2017, 02:34:42 PM »

Thanks for that Don, I'll look into getting one. Even if l don't install it I'll carry it with me along with the tools to replace it. I have no doubt it'll be fine until I'm on a run. I'm still in learning mode about the bike after not having one for 30+ years. This one's my retirement present too my self. Thanks again mate.
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ultrarider123

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2017, 02:47:32 PM »

Howdy Pete.  Not telling tales out of school here but you probably want to proceed with purchasing and installing the voltage regulator.  If it were mine, I wouldn't wait until the current regulator acts up again.  It's not a hard process to replace but if you wait on the faulty one to fail, it can interfere with and affect other electrical components and end up being more costly than just the original cost of the new regulator.

As others have already posted, it could be something other than the VR but of the experiences I've had over the years with failing regulators, the signs are pointing that direction for your issues.... :)
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longlast

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2017, 03:27:49 PM »

Hi Howard, thanks buddy looking at it like that you're most likely right. I'm not much on electronics I'm more hands on mechanical. Note taken, I'll change it.  :2vrolijk_21:
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Twolanerider

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2017, 04:27:43 PM »

Thanks for that Don, I'll look into getting one. Even if l don't install it I'll carry it with me along with the tools to replace it. I have no doubt it'll be fine until I'm on a run. I'm still in learning mode about the bike after not having one for 30+ years. This one's my retirement present too my self. Thanks again mate.


With the connections right on the regulator at least they are a relatively easy side-of-the-road change anymore.  That hasn't always been the case.  I admit I don't have a regulator among my road spares (do have a couple in the parts cabinet at home though).  Since I said that out loud I'm probably now jinxed for a failure.
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ultrafxr

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2017, 05:22:56 PM »

Hi Pete.  You're getting some good advice based on several of us who have had the problem - some multiple times.  No biggie unless it leaves you  stranded.  Cheap insurance to replace it sooner rather than later.  Hope it all works out for you.

Cheers!   :drink:

Jerry
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 02:09:35 PM by ultrafxr »
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longlast

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2017, 09:25:09 PM »

You know guys when this issue first come up my first thought (when I saw it not changing) was the stator failed, but then when it resumed charging my mind jumped straight to ground problem. I didn't give the regulator rectifier a second thought (like it didn't exist). I think my old gray matters getting soft l know I've forgotten more than I remember, been a mechanic all my working life and a malfunctioning regulator makes sense.
Saying that, what I don't get is these units are a sealed electronics unit and when they fail that's it, didn't think they could be intermittent, not like the older coil pull in points regulators where you could clean up the point contacts if you have a charge malfunction. Or with an alternator the diodes would fail and you could change them with out having to replace the whole alternator. So these regulators must have diodes in them as well to prevent feedback draining the battery and to direct voltage to charge.
I'm not saying it's​ not most likely the cause just trying to understand how it works to be intermittent.
Also l looked them up nearly fell off the chair when I saw the price :'(
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ultrafxr

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2017, 02:13:41 PM »

You know guys when this issue first come up my first thought (when I saw it not changing) was the stator failed, but then when it resumed charging my mind jumped straight to ground problem. I didn't give the regulator rectifier a second thought (like it didn't exist). I think my old gray matters getting soft l know I've forgotten more than I remember, been a mechanic all my working life and a malfunctioning regulator makes sense.
Saying that, what I don't get is these units are a sealed electronics unit and when they fail that's it, didn't think they could be intermittent, not like the older coil pull in points regulators where you could clean up the point contacts if you have a charge malfunction. Or with an alternator the diodes would fail and you could change them with out having to replace the whole alternator. So these regulators must have diodes in them as well to prevent feedback draining the battery and to direct voltage to charge.
I'm not saying it's​ not most likely the cause just trying to understand how it works to be intermittent.
Also l looked them up nearly fell off the chair when I saw the price :'(
No idea of the price on you side of the pond.  Over here they are about $200.  I was at the Bikes, Blues & BBQ event in Arkansas a couple years ago when the one on my '07 cuse2 crapped out.  Pig Trail H-D did a good job of getting it replaced the next day as they had a ton of bikes in for service as this is a big, big rally event.  Anyway after tech's time to troubleshoot the charging system then install plus the cost of the part plus tax of course it was almost $500 as I recall.  If I'd been at home I could have ordered it from a 20% off dealer and installed myself for much less than half that.  Oh well, unfortunately failures don't always happen close to home.
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longlast

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2017, 08:10:42 PM »

Hi Jerry, all good sound advice from your self and the other guys. What happened to you is a nightmare when on a run. I know just how it can spin out of control, took the wife out for a day trip her first ride when l first got the bike we where about 100 miles from home and 4 miles from our destination when we got a flat tyre in the rear. To cut a long story short, it was a new tyre could not be repaired had to spend the night in a travel lodge transport by cabi. 40 some hours later we get back home, the cat going nuts hadn't eaten for two days. So yes, road trip break downs can do your head in.
Anyway back on topic, I spent the day doing some research, btw. Your diagram was helpful prices here run from £164 down to £68 online. Don't know the exchange rate but getting from your side of the pond l can get one for $98.oo £64.00 plus shipping.
Started to pull it out today found how to run test on it and the stator.
As l was checking l came across a harness plug that had the green oxidisation on two of the pins didn't know what the plug and harness was for,...It run from left to right underneath the seat just below the tank. Back to more digging and found it to be the ignition harness. Not sure if that would have caused the glitch, anyway cleaned it up gave a shot of ACF 50 and called it a day went in for dinner. Carry on in the morning.
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longlast

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2017, 03:35:44 PM »

                                                                UP DATE #2

Well i got the regulator rectifier out and did a diode and olm test.
Diode test on all 3 pins was  584 from stator input side to positive output side of rectifier, no reading no reversing the pin test, equaling the diodes too being good, no fault.  In the next pic.
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longlast

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2017, 04:33:30 PM »

On the olms test through the diodes l got a resistance reading of 2.86 on all 3 pins and one (1) olm reading on reversing the test.
From what I understand the numbers on both test diodes and olms test are numbers within a good working regulator rectifier.
Also did a check on the stator and found no fault there either. Also tested the power supply from rectifier to maxi fuse that was good too.
I'm at a bit of a loss now! Seeing as all test are looking good, I'm hesitant on forking out for a regulator if it's not required.
Don't want to be like a stealer dealer change this and that and the problem mite go away.
One thing I did find (don't know if it's related or not) l found a harness plug under the seat at the bottom of the tank that runs up the center of the tank, l believe is ignition 4 pin plug in, two of the pins with green oxidisation on two of the pins. Cleaned them up and gave the plug a shot of ACF 50 maybe that was It?  I haven't found the relationship between the 4 wires.
So I'm going to get it all back together tomorrow go for a ride and see what happens.
I just can't bring myself to pay out for a regulator rectifier that test out to be in working order and meets the functioning operation numbers. Or is there some sort of hidden malfunction with these regulators?? Like getting too hot and shutting down till it cools???
Forgot to mention, the only thing left to do when it's back together is test the charge output to battery once it's running.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2017, 05:04:55 PM by longlast »
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jachd17

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2017, 06:06:28 PM »

If it was my bike I would just put the new regulator on and be done with it. JMHO
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Twolanerider

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2017, 07:20:51 PM »

On the olms test through the diodes


For whatever it might be worth the come-and-go charge and lack-of-charge description you shared is the tell-tale behavior for a regulator.  With that I would have (out of the force of habit and an abundance of caution) checked my cable connections and quickly done the ohm and AC power checks on a stator; then I'd go grab the replacement regulator I'd pretty well known I was going to need all along.
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longlast

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2017, 10:32:35 PM »


For whatever it might be worth the come-and-go charge and lack-of-charge description you shared is the tell-tale behavior for a regulator.  With that I would have (out of the force of habit and an abundance of caution) checked my cable connections and quickly done the ohm and AC power checks on a stator; then I'd go grab the replacement regulator I'd pretty well known I was going to need all along.

OK there Don, that small phrase  there in bold about sums it up. I think I've got myself cought up in my head from experience  working with circuit boards in my job that they work or they don't, and I'm comparing the regulator in the same way.
On your long term experience (against my zero term experience) that these regulators can behave erratic that's good enough for me.
About the statement I made on carrying a new one with me and​ me doing a road side repair is out the window now l know the involvement of changing one that's not going to happen. I think I will carry the one l replace for a bit just incase (it wouldn't surprise me one bit that two weeks down the road the new one was to pack it in) and let the road side break downs service change it that l pay my insurance for.
Thanks Don, Jerry and you Howard for the helpful information. Till next time ( which I'm sure there will be) ride safe!    BTW. Haha! I guess you pick up on my (olm) for (ohm) wasn't really trying to confuse you  ;D

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longlast

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2017, 10:50:35 PM »

If it was my bike I would just put the new regulator on and be done with it. JMHO

Your JMHO is appreciated I know what you mean but I'm like a bog with a bone. I gotsta chew on it to get too the marrow of the problem and know why, how and where accordingly. That's just me!
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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2017, 08:55:49 AM »

Your JMHO is appreciated I know what you mean but I'm like a bog with a bone. I gotsta chew on it to get too the marrow of the problem and know why, how and where accordingly. That's just me!

 ;D    Not just you, there are still a few of us around.  I think these days more and more people either don't have the patience to do the diagnostics, or don't know how, so they just throw parts at problems until they hopefully fix them.  In this case, since you're dealing with an intermittent problem, once you determine all the basics (connections, gauge readings, etc.) are good, then it's appropriate to use logic and experience to narrow down the possibilities and change the most likely part. 

Jerry
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longlast

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2017, 05:06:35 PM »

;D    Not just you, there are still a few of us around.  I think these days more and more people either don't have the patience to do the diagnostics, or don't know how, so they just throw parts at problems until they hopefully fix them.  In this case, since you're dealing with an intermittent problem, once you determine all the basics (connections, gauge readings, etc.) are good, then it's appropriate to use logic and experience to narrow down the possibilities and change the most likely part. 

Jerry

That's good to know Jerry,  some times l think by asking,.. Why,... That I'm questioning the advice being given but that's not it at all. Like I said, I got/like to know and understand what the cause of the problem is and it's remedy .
Just knowing that it's​ gas spark bang and roll just don't do it for me. I'm learning more and more hopefully at some point I'll be in the position to help someone here with my two bits worth with there ride. Cheers guys :2vrolijk_21:
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longlast

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Re: Charging fault Update!
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2017, 03:33:59 PM »

                                                   UPDATE!

Got the new regulator and installed.     Here's at idle charge
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longlast

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2017, 03:37:31 PM »

                  Here's at 3k rpm.         Hope all is good now.
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Twolanerider

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Re: Charging fault
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2017, 06:49:03 PM »

                   :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
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