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[bpf]

Well I am set to meet the harley rep tomorrow. He wants to ride my bike. Which is ok by me, however like my mechanic said he couldn't get it to sump according to the bulletin procedure. So I hope he is ready to ride the bike long enough and hard enough to get it to sump. I am truely excited to see how Harley tries to handle this one. I want to see if they go with the approach of working thru this the right way, or will they try to B/S me and make it my problem to be stuck with which I am having no parts of.

Will you have the chance to follow him on an other bike ? So you can know exactly how he does the testing and check that he tries to meet your type of riding that triggered the sumping ? These bikes have a CAN bus. There are CAN bus loggers available for years: if someone wants to do a real analysis of the conditions triggering the sumping, plugging such a logger would allow the HD R&D to be aware of the exact conditions you have met.

[grc]

Will you have the chance to follow him on an other bike ? So you can know exactly how he does the testing and check that he tries to meet your type of riding that triggered the sumping ? These bikes have a CAN bus. There are CAN bus loggers available for years: if someone wants to do a real analysis of the conditions triggering the sumping, plugging such a logger would allow the HD R&D to be aware of the exact conditions you have met.

Furthermore, Harley and it's dealers have had such logging capabilities for a fairly long time through their proprietary scan tool.  How often do you suppose that capability is actually used by techs working on flat rate?

Jerry

[bpf]

Furthermore, Harley and it's dealers have had such logging capabilities for a fairly long time through their proprietary scan tool.  How often do you suppose that capability is actually used by techs working on flat rate?

Jerry

I don't know if dealerships have tools that logs when you ride, they usually have stuff that stay in the garage because data logging when you ride is more of a R&D/QA need.

My company sells parts to OEM in the automotive industry, and when they reach the dealerships we sadly know that many times there are not fitted the way they should, the documentation isn't read, etc.

If a rep is sent by the OEM to do a test ride, that's a completely different story: they don't send guys here and there for the fun of it because it is costly. There are good chances that they really want to understand and fix the problem once and for all. They may reach the conclusion that the fitment wasn't done according to the manual, or that the manual wording is obscure, or that the pump is still to be improved... but the most important thing is to make sure that the conditions triggering the failure are met when the rep comes.

[J.D.]

Can't they run it on the Dyno simulating riding conditions and log it then?  If it's sumping they should be able to get it to show symptoms while on the dyno.

[bpf]

Can't they run it on the Dyno simulating riding conditions and log it then?  If it's sumping they should be able to get it to show symptoms while on the dyno.

On the dyno you don't have acceleration on the whole frame, deceleration, vibration, position changes in all dimensions, bumps, etc. There is something that must be related to the riding conditions and not only the RPM otherwise it would have been understood in a test lab a long time ago. I would be surprised that the rep doesn't come with some kind of logger.

[harleytacticalnut]

What a day. I met the factory rep, first thing that he looked at on my bike was the exhaust and scanned my tune to verify it was a harley tune.
 He actually crossed referenced it to confirm this personally. Which was ok because it was their tuner.
However he was very adamant about voiding warranty and that  It is their immediate way out if you have used another tuner.
 If it wasn't then he would have blacklisted the bike right then and there.
He didn't like my Thunderheader slip ons. Nor my Dakota digital gauges. He took pictures of my bike, tune, exhaust, gauges etc, 
He actually watched my video and discredited it because I didn't get my vin in the video. He did allow me to ride my bike the way I ride to get it to sump.
I was able to get the bike to sump.
The rep then tries to get me to let them try an oil pump, and call it a day.
I advised him that I have been on this forum and seen how harley is using people as guinea pigs with replacing pumps here, pumps there, wrong numbers here old stock there.
And that I have no interest in being their guinea pig.
I also advised him that several people on these forums have had entire engine replacements and stage 4 kits replaced, engines replaced  2,3,times and still have the sumping issues. He laughed and told me that has never happened and that they discredit anything said in these forums as fabrication.
That pissed me off because if it were not for the forums then I would still be trying to figure out a problem with my bike that my local dealer didn't figure out and harley not disclosing this information.
 I simply explained that I bought their koolaid for $50k and went all in. I didn't do so based on the agreement of being a their R&D at my expense.
The rep then tried to get me to accept a short or long block replacement.
Which I declined. My bike has sumped 6-7 times and it may or may not have sustained permanent damage and there is no 100% answer to that question.
So I insisted that I want my bike to have a factory fresh 114 engine installed and get fully refunded for my investment of the stage 4 and we can all go home happy.
The rep then told me I was nuts because no one has ever received a factory fresh 114 off of the assembly line to replace their sumping stage 4 engine, either a long or short block replacement.  He also said that Harley would never let a customer have 2-3 engines replaced in a bike without giving the customer a new bike. And that I was misinformed by the information I am receiving on the forums.
I told him maybe or maybe not?  IDK
He then told me that they aren't even making the liquid cooled 114" anymore and it can't be offered in an entire factory fresh assembly because they don't make it anymore and haven't done so for a long time.
So I then explained to the rep that I would accept an oil cooled factory fresh 117" engine. He said that wouldn't work with the ecm of a liquid cooled motor so I then offered them to install the 117" liguid cooled from the 2018 CVO limited and refund me my investment of the stage 4 and labor. If we can't agree to these terms then I will make the next move with my attorney which has already advised me on how to handle the matter.
He is on stand by and awaiting a phone call from me to proceed.
He gets very upset and offended and then made some calls. He then sits me down with the dealer and agreeing to work this out with a new engine and getting my bike running again.
I call my dealer later on to converse with them a little to be advised on what the harley rep said when I left, the harley rep then shipped out the oil pump to be installed tomorrow behind my back and against my will.
I was advised by Harley customer service over the phone that when the factory RTO was onsite that I was to be present to all conversations, no behind closed door meetings nor would any work be authorized without my consent to the matter. Both rights of which I was denied. They met behind closed doors to converse behind my back then call me in to meet with them to tell me they want to make me happy and replace the motor , however as soon as I leave the meeting  they then decide to replace the oil pump behind my back and not even consult me to see if I agree to repair a potentially damaged engine
I demanded the dealer to stop and desist until I have an agreement to get my $50k investment back to a factory fresh crated motor rather it is a 114" or 117" to the original condition before I agreed to be caught up in such a mess.
He agreed to work towards my goal of replacing my engine, protecting my investment and making me happy. But the harley rep then undermines me when I leave the dealer and starts working on trying repair this engine.
 

[J.D.]

Excellent writeup and handling of the situation.  Thanks for posting.

[mark]

What a day. I met the factory rep, first thing that he looked at on my bike was the exhaust and scanned my tune to verify it was a harley tune.
 He actually crossed referenced it to confirm this personally. Which was ok because it was their tuner.
However he was very adamant about voiding warranty and that  It is their immediate way out if you have used another tuner.
 If it wasn't then he would have blacklisted the bike right then and there.
He didn't like my Thunderheader slip ons. Nor my Dakota digital gauges. He took pictures of my bike, tune, exhaust, gauges etc, 
He actually watched my video and discredited it because I didn't get my vin in the video. He did allow me to ride my bike the way I ride to get it to sump.
I was able to get the bike to sump.
The rep then tries to get me to let them try an oil pump, and call it a day.
I advised him that I have been on this forum and seen how harley is using people as guinea pigs with replacing pumps here, pumps there, wrong numbers here old stock there.
And that I have no interest in being their guinea pig.
I also advised him that several people on these forums have had entire engine replacements and stage 4 kits replaced, engines replaced  2,3,times and still have the sumping issues. He laughed and told me that has never happened and that they discredit anything said in these forums as fabrication.
That pissed me off because if it were not for the forums then I would still be trying to figure out a problem with my bike that my local dealer didn't figure out and harley not disclosing this information.
 I simply explained that I bought their koolaid for $50k and went all in. I didn't do so based on the agreement of being a their R&D at my expense.
The rep then tried to get me to accept a short or long block replacement.
Which I declined. My bike has sumped 6-7 times and it may or may not have sustained permanent damage and there is no 100% answer to that question.
So I insisted that I want my bike to have a factory fresh 114 engine installed and get fully refunded for my investment of the stage 4 and we can all go home happy.
The rep then told me I was nuts because no one has ever received a factory fresh 114 off of the assembly line to replace their sumping stage 4 engine, either a long or short block replacement.  He also said that Harley would never let a customer have 2-3 engines replaced in a bike without giving the customer a new bike. And that I was misinformed by the information I am receiving on the forums.
I told him maybe or maybe not?  IDK
He then told me that they aren't even making the liquid cooled 114" anymore and it can't be offered in an entire factory fresh assembly because they don't make it anymore and haven't done so for a long time.
So I then explained to the rep that I would accept an oil cooled factory fresh 117" engine. He said that wouldn't work with the ecm of a liquid cooled motor so I then offered them to install the 117" liguid cooled from the 2018 CVO limited and refund me my investment of the stage 4 and labor. If we can't agree to these terms then I will make the next move with my attorney which has already advised me on how to handle the matter.
He is on stand by and awaiting a phone call from me to proceed.
He gets very upset and offended and then made some calls. He then sits me down with the dealer and agreeing to work this out with a new engine and getting my bike running again.
I call my dealer later on to converse with them a little to be advised on what the harley rep said when I left, the harley rep then shipped out the oil pump to be installed tomorrow behind my back and against my will.
I was advised by Harley customer service over the phone that when the factory RTO was onsite that I was to be present to all conversations, no behind closed door meetings nor would any work be authorized without my consent to the matter. Both rights of which I was denied. They met behind closed doors to converse behind my back then call me in to meet with them to tell me they want to make me happy and replace the motor , however as soon as I leave the meeting  they then decide to replace the oil pump behind my back and not even consult me to see if I agree to repair a potentially damaged engine
I demanded the dealer to stop and desist until I have an agreement to get my $50k investment back to a factory fresh crated motor rather it is a 114" or 117" to the original condition before I agreed to be caught up in such a mess.
He agreed to work towards my goal of replacing my engine, protecting my investment and making me happy. But the harley rep then undermines me when I leave the dealer and starts working on trying repair this engine.

I really hope you get this worked out to your satisfaction.  Everyone on this forum should read your post.  BTW, I wasn't aware all the posts on this site were made up.  I guess heatwave's sumping trouble is all in his mind.

[Heatwave]

I'm definitely on my THIRD factory 114 engine in my 2017 CVO Limited. While sumping was the driving factor, its also important to note that my first 2 engines were  damaged from overheating caused by the sumping. This damaged was determined by checking the rotation of the crank and rods. If the engine was undamaged, I'm guessing HD would have only authorized a newer oil pump installation.

The latest engine runs great and i was informed that the 3rd engine is actually an engine off the 2018 engine manufacturer line with 114 cyl/pistons. So far this latest engine is quite strong. Waiting to see if they release a "Bigger bore" stage 4 kit for the 2018 CVO 117s since it will be an even bigger stage 4 kit for the 114s.

[harleytacticalnut]

Bro. What he said about the forum set fire into me as well. I agree 110%. As I explained to him when you are that closed minded and wouldn't even read the forum thread as I offered to show him like 5 times, only to give him a full insight into not only my situation and where I stand , but also the others this has happened to already.
He again declined to even entertain this a proof and basically said we are all whack jobs. I got the feeling that corporate has mandated for them not to troll these forums as it undermines their ability to scam the general public to their favor and intent.
He wanted absolutely nothing to do with it.
 He was also very well  trained for the obvious warranty voiding issues, because of exhaust and tuner. He couldn't let me know that enough. Told me like 8 times.
 He was really looking for a different tuner on my bike.
He was actually disappointed in his appearance when he researched the tune number and found it to be a Harley number because he didn't recognize it. He was ready to nail me right then and there
before we even started the bike. But he couldn't.
I will say that Harley has a major issue right now, this guys was skillfully trained on trying to sway things Harley's way and what triggers to pull.
However I informed him they have the wrong guy for that. 

[J.D.]

Yeah that's really shoddy to try to void an oil pump issue because of an aftermarket tune.

I like the idea more and more of letting the attorney handle this...and less and less that I will every buy another Harley.

[harleytacticalnut]

I really like my bike and just want it to run like it should. The bike has run hot and sumped almost every time I ride it hard or not. I also don't feel with the existing track record with how harley is handling it and doesn't know 100% yet what's going on that I should have my brand new engine torn apart to verify lower end damage or not, cooling jet torque etc. The top end is no big deal. But my local shop mechanic even states that he has never done that before, at least he was honest with me. So I am not even entertaining a patch, piece, and repair nothing.
Either new crate motor, bike swap, or like I told the rep, I will pay the local shop to install the liquid cooled 117" to get to riding and then I will remove the troublesome motor and gladly sit it down on the judges table to deliberate over the issues and let him decide whom is deserving of what.
Sounds like a win, win to me. But a major pain in the ass.
But I would love to get the factory crate 117 on my bike because I don't Realy like the 2018 colors.
Maybe no harley at all.

[J.D.]

IMHO this will ultimately be Harley's kiss of death, that is, putting out an inferior product and letting their loyal customer base suck it.  They have choices how to deal with these situations that seem to happen over and over and more times than not is seems they try to avoid responsibility and leave a good chunk of the burden on the customer.  We've been through it with the Twin Cam 99-06 chain tensioners, the late Twin Cam lifters and compensators, and now the M8 sumping.

[harleytacticalnut]

Well said.

[grc]

What you ran into was a bullchit artist masquerading as a Harley technical rep.  In the past they have actually had some good ones, as noted by posts on this forum (but of course you can't believe anything on this forum) from people who met with good ones who only wanted to fix the problems, not find ways to screw over the customer.  Sadly it's just a luck of the draw thing as to who you get to talk to.  It would have also helped if your dealership had stood up for you in front of this jerk, but just like factory reps, dealers aren't all made equal.

I spent a significant portion of my early career as a zone service manager for an auto manufacturer, and I saw the same thing to some extent in that business.  For every person like me who just wanted to help fix problems and make customers satisfied, there were less competent people with the same title and job description who seemed to purposely set out to deny everything and pizz off customers.  Unfortunately it seems you got one of those.

I wouldn't let them drag this BS out too much further before turning that attorney loose on them.  At that point I think I'd have him go after a complete buy-back of the bike and compensation for all the money spent and time wasted trying to get Harley to honor the warranty and do the right thing.  Assuming they actually buy it back, you can then decide whether you want to buy another one from people who would treat you this way, or perhaps look at alternatives.  There are other choices out there these days, and people don't have to grab their ankles if they don't want to. 

Jerry