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[cmashark]

So this isn't a stage 3 or 4 issue, but a factory engine assembly issue... I think I'll call my buddy. He's the service manager at one of the local dealers and see if his shop has seen anything yet and if he wants to dissect mine before the Maggie Valley get together.

[Heatwave]

So this isn't a stage 3 or 4 issue, but a factory engine assembly issue... I think I'll call my buddy. He's the service manager at one of the local dealers and see if his shop has seen anything yet and if he wants to dissect mine before the Maggie Valley get together.

I hope you don't go through any extra expense based on my experience. If your bike is running well I'd recommend just enjoying the ride.

[Twolanerider]

So this isn't a stage 3 or 4 issue, but a factory engine assembly issue... I think I'll call my buddy. He's the service manager at one of the local dealers and see if his shop has seen anything yet and if he wants to dissect mine before the Maggie Valley get together.

That was another thought that came to mind with the latter part of the problem review.  The factory tech support being so specific about checking such an unusual thing when that thing was seemingly separate and apart from the other upgrade work that was ostensibly being reviewed.  That was what first caught my attention.  That is what would have made me sniff harder. 

It's so specific a suggestion to an unusual enough issue, and an issue that is extant to the rest of the work, that you can't help but ask the same question that went to the Nixon White House.  What did they know and when did the know it?

[sadunbar]

The cooling jets have a check valve that opens at 12 to 18 PSI.  A cooling jet that is loose enough to leak oil would have two results.  One is excess oil draining into the sump.  The second is the piston skirts and piston pin would receive inadequate lubrication...

[cmashark]

I hope you don't go through any extra expense based on my experience. If your bike is running well I'd recommend just enjoying the ride.

No worries! I called and asked about any warranty repairs that they have had.  Only oil lines and stereo stuff.  They said they had done a ton of the 107/114 and 114/117 stage 3 and 4's, but none have come back for anything, yet. They did say they that if I wanted, I could bring it down and they would check it for sumping.

As for temps, when we were at the MITM, my Power Vision was typically showing 270-280 for engine temp and only once I saw it hit 290, but that only lasted for a couple minutes and it slowly went down in the low 280's.

[Heatwave]

No worries! I called and asked about any warranty repairs that they have had.  Only oil lines and stereo stuff.  They said they had done a ton of the 107/114 and 114/117 stage 3 and 4's, but none have come back for anything, yet. They did say they that if I wanted, I could bring it down and they would check it for sumping.

As for temps, when we were at the MITM, my Power Vision was typically showing 270-280 for engine temp and only once I saw it hit 290, but that only lasted for a couple minutes and it slowly went down in the low 280's.

I think thats a very good strategy for inexpensively testing if you have a sumping issue. Ride the bike hard before dropping the bike at the dealer. Ask them not to idle the bike. Then pull the crank sensor and measure the oil that flows out of the crankcase. If more than 3-5 ounces flow out, you may have a sumping issue. Worth putting the sensor back in. Topping oil. Go for a ride and test how much oil in case a second time. If too much oil is confirmed a second time then there is a problem. Thats a very easy and low cost method to determine if the jets or oil pump are not functioning as designed. Nothing needs to be disassembled for this test.

[Fullsac Performance]

I think thats a very good strategy for inexpensively testing if you have a sumping issue. Ride the bike hard before dropping the bike at the dealer. Ask them not to idle the bike. Then pull the crank sensor and measure the oil that flows out of the crankcase. If more than 3-5 ounces flow out, you may have a sumping issue. Worth putting the sensor back in. Topping oil. Go for a ride and test how much oil in case a second time. If too much oil is confirmed a second time then there is a problem. Thats a very easy and low cost method to determine if the jets or oil pump are not functioning as designed. Nothing needs to be disassembled for this test.

I Rolled a 2017 107 out of the dyno room yesterday, then proceeded to change all the fluids. I pulled the crankcase drain plug and measured 8 oz. If your draining the crankcase oil from the CPS port, most likely leaving some behind as this is not the lowest area of the crankcase. Is 8 oz normal? I think so after just making a 100HP.

Steve@fullsac.com

[Heatwave]

I Rolled a 2017 107 out of the dyno room yesterday, then proceeded to change all the fluids. I pulled the crankcase drain plug and measured 8 oz. If your draining the crankcase oil from the CPS port, most likely leaving some behind as this is not the lowest area of the crankcase. Is 8 oz normal? I think so after just making a 100HP.

Steve@fullsac.com

My dealer said 3-4 ounces would be considered normal and to spec. I'd check a few more times to confirm. BTW there's an SIP from Harley on Sumping with Stage 3/4 builds. #1450. Has anyone actually been able to read it?

FYI, HD now has 4 parts #s (I don't have them yet) for M8 oil pumps. 1 for stock 107 oil cooled M8. 1 for twin-cooled M8 114/107s. 1 for stage 3/4 107 oil-cooled M8s. 1 for stage 3/4 twin-cooled M8s.

My understanding is that the new M8 Stage 3/4 kits being released in mid-July will include the new "performance" oil pumps.

[Rooster]

No worries! I called and asked about any warranty repairs that they have had.  Only oil lines and stereo stuff.  They said they had done a ton of the 107/114 and 114/117 stage 3 and 4's, but none have come back for anything, yet. They did say they that if I wanted, I could bring it down and they would check it for sumping.

As for temps, when we were at the MITM, my Power Vision was typically showing 270-280 for engine temp and only once I saw it hit 290, but that only lasted for a couple minutes and it slowly went down in the low 280's.

Just to clarify is this oil temp or motor temp?

[cmashark]

Just to clarify is this oil temp or motor temp?

Engine temperature.

[Rooster]

Thanks. In 07 and 08 some of us had oil temps over 300 so you can just imagine what the motor temps were.

[grc]

My dealer said 3-4 ounces would be considered normal and to spec. I'd check a few more times to confirm. BTW there's an SIP from Harley on Sumping with Stage 3/4 builds. #1450. Has anyone actually been able to read it?

FYI, HD now has 4 parts #s (I don't have them yet) for M8 oil pumps. 1 for stock 107 oil cooled M8. 1 for twin-cooled M8 114/107s. 1 for stage 3/4 107 oil-cooled M8s. 1 for stage 3/4 twin-cooled M8s.

My understanding is that the new M8 Stage 3/4 kits being released in mid-July will include the new "performance" oil pumps.

Three to four ounces was normal for the 2006 and earlier Twin Cams, but six to eight ounces was common after all the changes for 2007.  At the time H-D of course claimed up to eight ounces was "normal", but at the same time they were lying about a lot of stuff like crank runout specs and other "inconsequential" stuff like that.  Of course to get an accurate number you need to let the engine idle for a couple minutes before shutting the engine down, to let excess oil from the top end return to the sump and be returned to the pan.  Shutting it down immediately after running at higher rpm's will leave an excessive amount in the engine and screw up the test.

Jerry

[cmashark]

My dealer said 3-4 ounces would be considered normal and to spec. I'd check a few more times to confirm. BTW there's an SIP from Harley on Sumping with Stage 3/4 builds. #1450. Has anyone actually been able to read it?

FYI, HD now has 4 parts #s (I don't have them yet) for M8 oil pumps. 1 for stock 107 oil cooled M8. 1 for twin-cooled M8 114/107s. 1 for stage 3/4 107 oil-cooled M8s. 1 for stage 3/4 twin-cooled M8s.

My understanding is that the new M8 Stage 3/4 kits being released in mid-July will include the new "performance" oil pumps.

Steve posted M1450 on the other site.

[Heatwave]

I've got my new stock 114 engine back in the bike. I've got about 75 breakin miles on the new engine. Remarkable how good the stock engine is but that's comparing it to my Stage IV 117 with sumping issues. I now believe I had sumping issues from the time I took delivery. The new engine feels so effortless vs my old engine that was very powerful but only for about the 1st 20 miles than all the power (50%) was gone. For anyone that hasn't experienced sumping issues it can be very frustrating. the bike can be outstanding at first and then run like a dog.

Its great to be back on the new bike. HD is upgrading my new 114 engine to a new Stage IV kit as soon as they release them (they had a release date of 7/13/17). They covered all costs for the new engine and installation and all costs for the Stage IV including installation. In the event, you haven"t read the Service Bulletin on 2017 "Sumping Issues", here it is:

[Heatwave]

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