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[Heatwave]

Any decent mechanic can find damage when it's tore down if there is any. Its hard for me to imagine a crank drowned in oil getting hurt. I personally seen a twin cam get hot enough to melt the cam sensor off the side of the case. That's when it stopped running. Zero damage to the crank, but the bore was done and very obvious to see.

Good luck with it.

Steve@fullsac.com

If you're having trouble imagining a seized M8 engine due to a crank drowning in oil, just check out this video of boiling Syn 3 pouring from my crankcase. I was a few miles from seizing according to tech. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B34U6UTlj03uSE9MMF9ZU2NIT1k/view

[harleytacticalnut]

Damn looks just like what mine did

[Fullsac Performance]

If you're having trouble imagining a seized M8 engine due to a crank drowning in oil, just check out this video of boiling Syn 3 pouring from my crankcase. I was a few miles from seizing according to tech. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B34U6UTlj03uSE9MMF9ZU2NIT1k/view

They do get very very hot when forced to run with a crank case full of oil. That is a fact.

Steve@fullsac.com

[Heatwave]

They do get very very hot when forced to run with a crank case full of oil. That is a fact.

Steve@fullsac.com

Crank and rods were EXTREMELY tight after that heat and the lifters were also very burned up and close to failure. Most surprising part was neither the engine light or oil light came on. Shop was surprised i was even able to ride it in.

[BigLew]

That is unbelievable!

BigLew

[spook120]

Sooooo on page 612 of the new parts book they have listed a billet support plate and a high flow pump kit...for around $900 uninstalled.  Hmmm.  Is this HD's answer to the sumping issue?  And we the consumer have to pay for their fix to a design screw up?  What say you?

[spook120]

Never mind....for twin cam. My dumb a** mistake!

[spook120]

Just got a call from the local dealer.  They are coming to pick up my 17 CVO SG with the stage 4 kit to do the SB1450 deal from HD.  HD pays them for 8 hours as they tear down basically the whole top end to check for scoring, ect. and then replace the oil pump.  Got to say that my local dealer was on top of this and initiated the recall.  Not terribly happy about having my motor tore apart again but have confidence in the wrench to do it right. Just FYI the bike has a fullsac system and is tuned with a TTS. Not an issue in this dealers mind.  Hmmmm.

[CVOSGJoe]

Just got a call from the local dealer.  They are coming to pick up my 17 CVO SG with the stage 4 kit to do the SB1450 deal from HD.  HD pays them for 8 hours as they tear down basically the whole top end to check for scoring, ect. and then replace the oil pump.  Got to say that my local dealer was on top of this and initiated the recall.  Not terribly happy about having my motor tore apart again but have confidence in the wrench to do it right. Just FYI the bike has a fullsac system and is tuned with a TTS. Not an issue in this dealers mind.  Hmmmm.

Did dealer test for sumping and found it to be doing so, thats the reason for the tear down?

[spook120]

No, according to what was relayed to me it was a preventive measure due to the stage 4 kit that they installed.   I guess HD is taking the position that it is cheaper to prevent issues before they occur rather than fix the damage if it does happen.  At least that is my take on it.  But I have been wrong once or twice before...

[J.D.]

Maybe? I have a few thoughts. And I only share these after my friend discovered loose sqirters in a motor that was sumping and I did a little thinking about it. Certainly not claiming I have the cure to anything. So, the percentage of 2017s with the sumping issue is very low. I do not believe the addition a few SE parts has anything to do with the oiling system working as designed or not. If I'm wrong that's fine, I do like to learn new things. If there was an oil pump design flaw the number of effected biked would be through the roof. The piston oil squirter is fed by a galley that runs to the lifters and up to the top end. Point is there is a lot of available oil under that little guy. If its loose allowing the oil to bypass the jet there is a substantial supply available. Here's a few fun facts about oil, viscosity and pressure. Cold motor, thick oil, high oil pressure. Hot engine, thin oil, low pressure. Sure, everybody knows this, but not everyone knows why the pressure change is so great. Thick oil is hard to push through small places. The oil pump has clearances that are sealed better by thick oil allowing it be more efficient. The thick oil creates more resistance going through the motor, both make for more oil pressure. Now lets assume we have a loose oil squirter that is bypassing oil into the bottom. When the oil is thick how much can get through compared to when the oil is hot? The scavenge pump is at its best when the oil is thick to keep up with the leak. Now lets go to 300 degree water thin oil. Our oil squirter leak just quadrupled and our scavenge pump has lost efficiency with the thinner viscosity. Kinda follows the pattern of everything going to hell when the bike got good and warmed up.

This is the best theory I've read yet.

[Heatwave]

Problem with this theory. My first M8 114 engine with stage 4 sumping failure was after 4800 miles. Squirters screws were below trq spec. Figured they leaked and overwhelmed oil sump capacity. But the second M8 114 stage 4 engine failed after 500 miles. Crankcase filled with 3qts. Screws on squirters were at 30inlbs per spec so they were not a factor. So I'm now clueless on whats causing the sumping other than a poor design or poor manufacturing of the oil pump. Now I'm on 3rd M8 114 engine and getting the stage 4 kit installed once again. New design oil pump is being hand delivered by MoCo dealer rep for next stage 4 install. We'll soon see how round 3 goes!

[motor1]

Seems as you go up in displacement excess oil the crankcase becomes more of a problem. It's going to be real interesting to see what happens with the 2018 CVO's and the 117 engine!
I do not have a lot of faith that they have solve this issue yet.

[grc]

Only Harley could find a way to screw up something as simple as an oil pump.  Perhaps it is well past time to get some help from people who actually know a ton about dry sump oiling systems, Porsche.  If folks remember, it was Porsche that designed the V-Rod engine for Harley, since Harley didn't and doesn't have the talent to do it on their own.

As for displacement increases being a cause, I wonder why it hasn't been a problem when running the same oil pump on Twin Cams from 88 cubic inches up to 120 or 124 cubic inches. 

Does anyone know if Harley changed the bypass system on the new engine?  The old system just ran the oil back to the inlet side of the pump, which wasn't great for aeration of the oil.  If they decided to dump the excess oil back to the tank/pan by way of the scavenge side of the pump, I could see where that could back up the oil in the sump if they didn't make the scavenge side large enough.   Just thinking out loud.

Jerry

[harleytacticalnut]

Just found out the MY18 - 117" is not liquid cooled.
Very interesting.
Why not?
More issues that we do not know about?