Topic: 26600012 Cooling Pump -- Something of a Disappointment (Read 9429 times)

Twolanerider · « **on:** July 10, 2017, 09:29:47 PM »

Many here have already had their experiences with the water cooled bikes. This afternoon was my first in any real depth; at least so far as disassembly and diagnostics are concerned.

Got a call late this morning from a rider heading through the area and was throwing codes suggesting a cooling system problem. They'd called ahead and apparently no dealers ahead on his route had a pump. Wanted to stop here and see if we'd be lucky enough to find something that might help.

Was really disappointed in the pump Mother Harley is using. Not terribly dissimilar from some automotive pumps have replaced before. Might be something you could buy at a parts store and swap the Harley end cap on too. This thing, however, is built with a magnetic coupling to the impeller like an overgrown aquarium pump. Surprised they aren't failing considerably more than we hear about. Mothership just luck a lot of bikes don't get a lot of miles I guess.

This one hadn't failed mechanically or electrically though. Not sure what Mother Harley uses besides (or within) the antifreeze that might gum up the works. You could hear this pump grunt. It obviously wasn't spinning with any appreciable speed though. So took the cap off and it was gummed up so badly it couldn't spin. Again, no clue what Harley might allow within the system that could gum one up so bad in 18 months and 18000 miles time. Was lucky though in that could just clean the thing up and reassemble and, voila, normally functioning pump again. Reassembled and the riders continue on their trip. Just got a call and they'd stopped for the night. No more codes and no more problems in their four hours on the road since they left here.

Mother Harley wouldn't likely be happy with someone disassembly their parts in lieu of warranty (then again they just might....). If you're in a bind though it might be at least worth a shot.

grc · « **Reply #1 on:** July 11, 2017, 09:02:01 AM »

In view of past Harley practices, like selling a supposedly upgraded compensator in the SE catalog after the original design failed early and often back in 2007, I assume Harley will offer a super premium SE coolant, at $50 per quart, to eliminate this problem Don. Or, similar to the ABS pump seizing problems, just change the maintenance schedule and require a coolant change every six months.

Funny how the rest of the motorcycle industry and the auto industry doesn't have this problem. But there again, I think I've said the same thing about a lot of other "new only to Harley" stuff over the years.

Jerry

Twolanerider · « **Reply #2 on:** July 11, 2017, 11:24:56 AM »

Quote from: grc on July 11, 2017, 09:02:01 AM

In view of past Harley practices, like selling a supposedly upgraded compensator in the SE catalog after the original design failed early and often back in 2007, I assume Harley will offer a super premium SE coolant, at $50 per quart, to eliminate this problem Don. Or, similar to the ABS pump seizing problems, just change the maintenance schedule and require a coolant change every six months.

Funny how the rest of the motorcycle industry and the auto industry doesn't have this problem. But there again, I think I've said the same thing about a lot of other "new only to Harley" stuff over the years.

Jerry

Even given their sad history with the appropriation and integration of other people's systems and tech (because you know they buy someone else's) I was really surprised to see the inside of this pump housing. It was almost muddy inside. God knows the the little radiators are impaired. It's also at least a little difficult to imagine where all the muck came from. Obviously they've used products that led to the problem somewhere (or throughout) the system. But it was both unexpected and sad.

Assuming the rest of the system is also suffering some level of corruption the little pump is going to lead a hard life. No wonder they're failing so often. It's easy to imagine greater resistance within a closed system like that leading to failures of magnetically coupled impellers in what appears to be a barely adequate pump to begin with.

ultrarider123 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 11, 2017, 01:02:34 PM »

Something that I've been pondering on this topic: Is there a possibility that there is some leakage from the oil lubrication system to the water side? It could account for the sludge in a "sealed" system. I know it is a separate cooling system but so is the oil and water system in every vehicle and if a gasket fails, you have water in the oil/oil in the water...

Just throwing it out there, fellers.

RonandJanet · « **Reply #4 on:** July 11, 2017, 01:08:47 PM »

When I look at the water in mine it looks fine and does not have any sludge in it. Maybe there was some oil or something else contaminating the fluid. Is it possible to flush this system? I never even thought about that before.

grc · « **Reply #5 on:** July 11, 2017, 02:29:33 PM »

Considering all the leak problems in the first couple years of the Twin Cooled bikes, I couldn't help but wonder if perhaps someone thought it might be a great idea to put some Stop Leak or similar product in the coolant and thus create the mud Don found. I wouldn't be surprised if Harley itself wouldn't consider dropping one of those pellets used in the auto manufacturing business into the Twin Cooled systems. Unless the owner of this particular bike decides to enlighten us on the complete history of the cooling system on this particular bike, I guess we will never know. I can't imagine the coolant itself causing the problem. I can imagine someone dumping another product in the coolant, either on purpose or by accident. I can also imagine the pump or radiators or other components having crap left in them during manufacture that eventually created this mud. We will probably never know what actually happened, unless it starts happening to a lot of bikes.

In the meantime, I recommend everyone look for Screamin' Eagle Super Premium Coolant and Elixir at their favorite Harley store, flush and change the fluid, and repeat every six months. Harley could use the extra profit.

Jerry

WTF Chuck · « **Reply #6 on:** July 11, 2017, 04:14:42 PM »

I have read on one of the other forums that some one found a replacement pump and like you said just changed the head and it worked I thought I saved the link but can not find it now. I will post it if i find it again.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #7 on:** July 11, 2017, 06:33:22 PM »

Quote from: Haird on July 11, 2017, 01:02:34 PM

Something that I've been pondering on this topic: Is there a possibility that there is some leakage from the oil lubrication system to the water side? It could account for the sludge in a "sealed" system. I know it is a separate cooling system but so is the oil and water system in every vehicle and if a gasket fails, you have water in the oil/oil in the water...

Just throwing it out there, fellers.

There aren't any gasketed surfaces separating the water jacket and oil galleys. It would take significant porosity to allow it. Enough so I find it unlikely that, even were it happening, some sign wouldn't be elsewhere as well.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #8 on:** July 11, 2017, 06:38:19 PM »

Quote from: grc on July 11, 2017, 02:29:33 PM

Considering all the leak problems in the first couple years of the Twin Cooled bikes, I couldn't help but wonder if perhaps someone thought it might be a great idea to put some Stop Leak or similar product in the coolant and thus create the mud Don found. I wouldn't be surprised if Harley itself wouldn't consider dropping one of those pellets used in the auto manufacturing business into the Twin Cooled systems. Unless the owner of this particular bike decides to enlighten us on the complete history of the cooling system on this particular bike, I guess we will never know. I can't imagine the coolant itself causing the problem. I can imagine someone dumping another product in the coolant, either on purpose or by accident. I can also imagine the pump or radiators or other components having crap left in them during manufacture that eventually created this mud. We will probably never know what actually happened, unless it starts happening to a lot of bikes.

In the meantime, I recommend everyone look for Screamin' Eagle Super Premium Coolant and Elixir at their favorite Harley store, flush and change the fluid, and repeat every six months. Harley could use the extra profit.

Jerry

The owner and I spoke about this at length while buttoning it all back up. He claims to have never done any greater service himself than to check the oil. Did say when the bike was just a few weeks old it had a leak and gone in for dealer service one time. He had no specific recollection of the fix though. Hadn't ever leaked again so he just rode it and smiled. So, unfortunately, not a lot else to go on there.

It's no more likely that the dealer added good old Bar's Leak than it is some filthy OE assembly or reassembly was done at service. It was a surprisingly ugly mess yesterday though. They did call again about a half hour ago though. Another 550-ish miles today in summer temps and no more problems. So, hopefully, all's well that rides well.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #9 on:** July 11, 2017, 06:40:20 PM »

Quote from: 14CVOultra on July 11, 2017, 04:14:42 PM

I have read on one of the other forums that some one found a replacement pump and like you said just changed the head and it worked I thought I saved the link but can not find it now. I will post it if i find it again.

I'd almost expect this. Certainly wouldn't be surprised by it. Delphi nor any other OE supplier isn't going to reinvent a wheel if they can pull one off the shelf. I'd love to find a good cross reference from Delphi to Harley part numbers someday. Lots of money to be saved at local parts stores.

fastfreddy · « **Reply #10 on:** July 11, 2017, 07:15:57 PM »

casting sand?? have seen that come loose and cause issues, made a lot of money cleaning up that stuff, back in my automotive repair days

HDMIKETN64 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 11, 2017, 09:23:19 PM »

I've owned a lot of Harley scoots over the years, but my new 2017 CVO Limited is my first water cooled MoCo bike. How often do people complain about cooling system issues like this? Is this an exceptional case or fairly common?

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Twolanerider · « **Reply #12 on:** July 11, 2017, 10:24:46 PM »

Quote from: fastfreddy on July 11, 2017, 07:15:57 PM

casting sand??

That wasn't the impression from this particular muck. This was more mucky and less gritty than you'd expecting from casting sand.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #13 on:** July 11, 2017, 10:28:02 PM »

Quote from: HDMIKETN64 on July 11, 2017, 09:23:19 PM

I've owned a lot of Harley scoots over the years, but my new 2017 CVO Limited is my first water cooled MoCo bike. How often do people complain about cooling system issues like this? Is this an exceptional case or fairly common?

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Others other than me will have to speak to this with any certainty. Only thing I know that one might intuit any conclusion from is that initially five than a total of eight dealerships he called didn't have the pump in stock. Two told him no clue when they'd expect more stock. The former suggests either a lot of inventory use or none at all (only reasons you'd not have stock). The latter suggest something of an issue; at least to me.

Chief2505 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 18, 2017, 08:42:03 PM »

With no codes and no temp light coming on how does one tell if the cooling system is actually working? The reason I ask is this...

I was 200 miles into a 300 mile interstate ride when both my wife and I smelled something funny, like something was burning. A really weird smell! After a few miles it went away so I gave it no more thought until a few more miles later I swear my right leg was a lot hotter than it used to be!

I kept forgetting to check the coolant when the bike was cold so after riding an hour in a mix of roads I stopped and checked the coolant. It was at the cold level. I thought that rather odd, figured even though the ambient air temp was only 75 that the coolant temp would be higher. The next day I checked the coolant level again, this time with the bike cold and it was at the exact same level.

Tonight we rode in 85 degree weather through towns and stop lights and open roads. I swear my right leg is hotter than it used to be. Checked the coolant when I got home and it was still at the full cold level.

I stopped at a dealer over the weekend and asked the service guy "how can you tell if the cooling system is working properly?" He stated it will ocsassionaly burp out fluid and you have to refill it. End of answer and he walked away.
So I stopped at another dealer and asked the same question and the first guy said you cannot hear the fans running. I gave him a funny look and said yeah you can if you are stopped and they kick in! So he gave me to another guy to talk to that told me as long as you have coolant and the temp light does not come on you are good to go!

So my question is since the coolant level never changes from cold to hot, how can you tell if the cooling system is working? Am I dreaming the extra heat? Like I said though, no codes are logged and the temp light has never come on.

Thanks

Twolanerider · « **Reply #15 on:** July 18, 2017, 08:50:24 PM »

No codes, no warning light, you hear the fans, there is water in it that is (at least barely) in the operating range). Sounds like it's working to me here in the bleacher seats.

My limited experience with the water cooled bikes has suggested an incorrect stereotype or misperception held by some. Just because HD has added this small bit of water cooling in now way means these bikes still are not hot. The water cooling is a band aid on what has been the continuing issue of HD sending out bikes that can get hot enough to be uncomfortable in normal use and sometimes hot enough to cause injury to person or clothes.

Chief2505 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 18, 2017, 09:01:44 PM »

I know the bike is still hot but there was considerable difference in the heat between my 13 CVO and my 16 CVO. The 16 being cooler and not uncomfortable to ride.

I guess I will add a couple ounces of coolant and call it good then!

Thanks for the info

Mickle · « **Reply #17 on:** July 18, 2017, 09:30:28 PM »

I have 2015 CVO Ultra, water pump failed at 60,000kms, I know of 2 others that I ride with that have also failed, one a 2015 103 Ultra, it failed at 14,000kms, the other a 2014 103 Ultra failed at 30,000. No explanation as to why/how just replaced under warranty.

RonandJanet · « **Reply #18 on:** July 19, 2017, 05:54:58 PM »

I would think that on a working system the fluid would be much hotter if the water is circulating. If the water is not circulating it would be warm but not hot. Do you have any idea if the water was hot? I am not saying stick your finger in the water but you should be able to tell.

WTF Chuck · « **Reply #19 on:** July 19, 2017, 07:05:13 PM »

Read in my 14 electrical diagnostic manual that you can test cooling fan and water pump operation by doing the following (bike can be hot or cold):

Turn run switch to run (do not start bike)

Roll throttle to WOT position and hold until fans run, then roll back throttle to idle (takes a couple seconds for fans to come on after holding to WOT)

Both fans will run as well as water pump

To stop test, turn run switch to off

RonandJanet · « **Reply #20 on:** July 19, 2017, 09:13:07 PM »

Can you see the water moving?

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #21 on:** July 20, 2017, 01:44:02 PM »

Quote from: RonandJanet on July 19, 2017, 09:13:07 PM

Can you see the water moving?

NOPE!!!!! I just keep an eye on my fluid level and ride it. I did lose a water pump at 38K on my way back from Alaska. Replaced under warranty and so far all is good.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

NH Bulldog · « **Reply #22 on:** July 20, 2017, 02:19:22 PM »

A friend told me about the manual activation of the cooling system using the throttle (I wish they had a switch). I use it after stopping from a long ride and let it run for a few minutes until the air coming off the fans is tolerable.

Rooster · « **Reply #23 on:** July 20, 2017, 03:07:11 PM »

Good job Don helping a member on the road.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #24 on:** July 20, 2017, 05:02:49 PM »

Quote from: Rooster on July 20, 2017, 03:07:11 PM

Good job Don helping a member on the road.

Few times a year someone still finds my place on the way to or from somewhere. Gotta help when we can.

roadrunner · « **Reply #25 on:** July 21, 2017, 07:04:30 AM »

Can you limp home when you get a warning light or do you have to stop?

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Chief2505 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 21, 2017, 08:15:59 AM »

I figured you could limp home, I mean the bike was air cooled before and they are only liquid cooling the exhaust ports in the heads BUT the owners manual says if the light comes on shut the bike down immediately and call your local HD service center.

Quote from: roadrunner on July 21, 2017, 07:04:30 AM

Can you limp home when you get a warning light or do you have to stop?

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DLXLDY · « **Reply #27 on:** August 08, 2017, 12:54:12 PM »

Just came back from Upstate NY/VT. A friend up from SC had his '15 SESG throw water temp and engine lights Sunday (after every possible dealer was closed) on our way to NH. He let the bike cool down and we called a tech we knew and reset codes. Local dealer closed on Mondays, and so we stayed over and took ferry back to NY and yes, it was the water pump (by the time we got to the dealer, the engine oil light also came on along with the others coming back on).

The warranty expired in May but the MoCo covered it. There wasn't one in stock in the Northeast, closest was overnighted from MD. The dealer said it's a $400 part, was $500 with install so no one stocks it. He did offer to swap out from a 2K used bike he had on hand to get us back on the road but our friend wanted a brandy new one.

Rooster · « **Reply #28 on:** August 08, 2017, 06:24:28 PM »

Are they installing a new one that may fail or are they getting a new improved version. I ask as years ago they had petcocks failing on new bikes at the time and mine was one. So I made them install an aftermarket one because they said none available and I didn't want to wait for another that would fail also. Hope you get it taken care of.

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #29 on:** August 22, 2017, 01:39:24 PM »

Well when Twolane started this thread I started looking around. It seems that Harley is using Dexcool in our bikes. That is most likely what caused the problem. I have since changed out my Dexcool for Engine Ice. I just got back from a 7K trip out west and had absolutely no problems. I am actually running more oil pressure all over the RPM range. Only 4 to 8 pounds but the bike has more pressure. It also seems like the bike is running cooler.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

roadrunner · « **Reply #30 on:** August 23, 2017, 08:08:15 AM »

Any warranty issues replacing the stock fluid with Engine ice?

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grc · « **Reply #31 on:** August 23, 2017, 08:52:18 AM »

Quote from: roadrunner on August 23, 2017, 08:08:15 AM

Any warranty issues replacing the stock fluid with Engine ice?

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Only if Engine Ice doesn't meet or exceed the same specifications as the Harley OE coolant. As long as you use a product that meets or exceeds the specs of the OE products, federal warranty law says you do NOT have to use the OE product for maintenance to maintain warranty coverage.

Jerry

roadrunner · « **Reply #32 on:** August 23, 2017, 11:53:04 AM »

Quote from: grc on August 23, 2017, 08:52:18 AM

Only if Engine Ice doesn't meet or exceed the same specifications as the Harley OE coolant. As long as you use a product that meets or exceeds the specs of the OE products, federal warranty law says you do NOT have to use the OE product for maintenance to maintain warranty coverage.

Jerry

Thanks
This is what I received from engine ice;

Engine Ice meets or exceeds all State and Federal requirements as well as all ASTM and SAE standards and requirements. All legal antifreeze products must be submitted to various states (Like Florida, for example) for testing to confirm it meets these standards.

We do not do any specific OE testing, as by meeting the Government and industry standards, we are therefore compliant with any OE standard.

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #33 on:** August 25, 2017, 10:56:07 AM »

I don't know how it would affect your warranty. It exceeds Harley standards. Besides it seems to work better. And if I don't have another water pump problem, I'm happy.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

1dcfireman · « **Reply #34 on:** September 08, 2017, 08:01:35 AM »

Just got back from a trip out to Sturgis 2017. We rode 7K in 16 days. Bike performed flawless. Parked bike for about a week took in out for a spin, 3 miles from my house coolant light and check engine light came on. Turned around went back home loaded it up on the trailer and dropped off at the Dealership. Dealership called and said coolant pump was bad. Bike only has 16K. Little disappointed but thankful it didn't happen out on the open road.Definitely changing coolant when i get it back!!!

Jock · « **Reply #35 on:** September 08, 2017, 03:26:07 PM »

Replaced in Sturgis...42k + miles on bike at the time of replacement.

Author Topic: 26600012 Cooling Pump -- Something of a Disappointment (Read 9429 times)

ultrarider123