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[Chief]

Hoist, being the observant one he is, pointed this little settling crack to me. It's not too bad, right smack dab in the middle of the double garage door opening. It's a frame house with brick veneer, so not structural.

[Chief]

So, I keep looking at it because no crack is a good crack. Then I found this one... in the right hand corner of the opening. Makes sense, one cracks in the bottom of the span, and one crack at the top.

[Chief]

Then I found this little one, still nothing TOO alarming...

[Chief]

We're planning on having the house painted real soon, so I've been looking at the trim, and saw this spot where the miter had opened up. Hmmmm weird, I'll need to fix that before the painters get to work.

[Chief]

Gee, now that I'm looking, why is there so much space between the window frame and the brick of our master bath?

[Chief]

I guess it COULD have something to do with this BIG Effing crack up here!!!!!!!!!!

[Screamin]

It's always f'n something. Chit. Hope it's cheaply fixed.

[Chief]

So, in summary, there isn't enough of a beam in the garage opening to support the weight of the brick above it, causing the center of the span to sag. Since these bricks arent the resilient kind that flex very much, it just pulled the whole skin around the master bath out, and knocking the trim apart.

Guess I'll be calling in a perfessoinal now. Good thing I just got some money for the blue bike.

Thanks Howie. You sure shot my ignorance is bliss period all to hell.

[SCRM-R]

Looks like you have some subterranean settling going on.  It's common in the south, especially during times of drought.  The soils supporting the foundations dry out, shrink, and cause the building to move.  I work in facilities planning at a major university and I've seen this quite a lot, especially in the last two years or so since our major drought began.  The best solution is to wet the soils down deep and keep them wet.  In some instances we have had to drill small wells all along a foundation wall and keep them pumped full of water.

[Chief]

Looks like you have some subterranean settling going on.  It's common in the south, especially during times of drought.  The soils supporting the foundations dry out, shrink, and cause the building to move.  I work in facilities planning at a major university and I've seen this quite a lot, especially in the last two years or so since our major drought began.  The best solution is to wet the soils down deep and keep them wet.  In some instances we have had to drill small wells all along a foundation wall and keep them pumped full of water.

No setling going on here. Check out the drop in the span of the garage opening. I haven't measured it, but it is pretty evident in the last pic (Some could be camera optics too). Major sag. Insufficient structure for the weight of the brick above. The crack in the first pic is just to the right of the light, open at the bottom of the span.

[Chief]

It's always f'n something. Chit. Hope it's cheaply fixed.

You know, this crap is so frustrating to find. Maybe I can get at it from the inside. Brace / jack the veneer and add a ton of beam inside, steel probably to hold it all tight. I've got almost 2 cubes of the brick, but since nothing has fallen down, and since there is access to the inside of the garage door, I'm hoping everything can be worked on without having to rip out any brick.

Crossing fingers on this one.

[Midnight Rider]

Jesus, Chuck...I hope that is camera optics playing a part in that sag...what range lens is that taken with, and at what setting?  If it's less than 24mm, you've got some lens distortion going on.  Still, some sagging is evident.  Good luck with the fix...life's a bitch sometimes..

[Screamin]

Seeing that you've got a wall resting on the center of the existing beam you, of course, will be really careful. If steel wasn't so dam expensive that'd be the way to go. I've yet to see properly seasoned wood used in new home construction. Stuff's generally oozing when they nail it up. Somewhere there's a guy who knows how to fix it, trick is finding him. Again, good luck.

[Chief]

Jesus, Chuck...I hope that is camera optics playing a part in that sag...what range lens is that taken with, and at what setting?  If it's less than 24mm, you've got some lens distortion going on.  Still, some sagging is evident.  Good luck with the fix...life's a bitch sometimes..

Yes, optics are playing games, but it is just emphasizing what is there, although, not that bad. Camera lens, oh, about as long as Dean's d!@k.

I'm really hoping it can be fixed with some good steel to support the brick ledge and just 'slide' everything back into place.

Suks being me right now.

[Chief]

Seeing that you've got a wall resting on the center of the existing beam you, of course, will be really careful. If steel wasn't so dam expensive that'd be the way to go. I've yet to see properly seasoned wood used in new home construction. Stuff's generally oozing when they nail it up. Somewhere there's a guy who knows how to fix it, trick is finding him. Again, good luck.

This is one of those times when I'll gladly pay to have it done right, the first time.

Where is the guy? I need him now.

Thanks for the well wishes.

[SPIDERMAN]

Please understand that this post is not intended to be a jerk and make you feel bad, but that house is structurally unsound. How old is this house ? Unless things have changed, your contractor's insurance company is on the hook for 10 years even if the guy has gone out of business. You've got major, major structural issues there. You can't fix that by jacking it up and putting a stronger beam under it.That entire section of the house will have to be torn down and re-built. There is no way you can repair that without proper permitting and once a building inspector sees that you're probably looking at the house being yellow taped and condemned untill repaired. Time to call in this order, A) a lawyer, B) a reputable contractor c) the town bldg inspector. Sorry for the mess you're in. PM Big Daddy and ask him what he thinks. He is in the business.

B B 

[The Mysterious Q!]

Well Is the house wood frame with brick veneer? If so is there a steel lintel above the garage door to carry the weight of the brick? And if there is a lintel is it posted to the foundation with steel posts.If its veneer are you sure they used brick ties in the construction.PM if you want and I'll give you my cell. Later,Q

[Chief]

Please understand that this post is not intended to be a jerk and make you feel bad, but that house is structurally unsound. How old is this house ? Unless things have changed, your contractor's insurance company is on the hook for 10 years even if the guy has gone out of business. You've got major, major structural issues there. You can't fix that by jacking it up and putting a stronger beam under it.That entire section of the house will have to be torn down and re-built. There is no way you can repair that without proper permitting and once a building inspector sees that you're probably looking at the house being yellow taped and condemned untill repaired. Time to call in this order, A) a lawyer, B) a reputable contractor c) the town bldg inspector. Sorry for the mess you're in. PM Big Daddy and ask him what he thinks. He is in the business.

B B 

Talk to me B B. What I see is a sagging beam in the garage door opening caused by insufficient structure to support the weight of the brick veneer. It's frame construction, so a cracked veneer is not structural. Isn't that right? The house was built in 2002. We bought it new in 2003.

I have placed a call to the phone number I have for the builder. Hopefully it is still a good number.

Thank you for your input.

Chuck

[Hoist!]

Talk to me B B. What I see is a sagging beam in the garage door opening caused by insufficient structure to support the weight of the brick veneer. It's frame construction, so a cracked veneer is not structural. Isn't that right? The house was built in 2002. We bought it new in 2003.

I have placed a call to the phone number I have for the builder. Hopefully it is still a good number.

Thank you for your input.

Chuck

Chuck, give John a call and explain the details to him. He can guide you as he know's his chit. Hoist!

[Chief]

Well Is the house wood frame with brick veneer? If so is there a steel lintel above the garage door to carry the weight of the brick? And if there is a lintel is it posted to the foundation with steel posts.If its veneer are you sure they used brick ties in the construction.PM if you want and I'll give you my cell. Later,Q

BigDaddy,

Yes, frame const. with brick veneer. The lintel is there, and due to the bow induced by the downward pressure, it has actually 'tipped' or 'rolled' a bit forward as the 'L' shape has deformed a bit. I don't know how the lintel is supported, my assumption was that it was resting on the bricks adjacent to the opening. I have to assume ties were used. They couldn't be THAT stupid or cheap. I know they can, but I sure hope not.

[Chief]

Chuck, give John a call and explain the details to him. He can guide you as he know's his chit. Hoist!

I'm really surprised Eagle Eye Hoist didn't spot that big gap up by the window. 

[Chief]

Ok, here is a picture trying to show the amount of sag. Without pulling a string on it, I'm guessing somewhere on the order of .5 inch across the opening of about 18 feet.

[Chief]

This shot shows the gap that has opened up between the lintel and the brick since the lintel has deformed a bit due to the sag.

[SPIDERMAN]

Chief
        The reason I said the house is structurally unsound is because all that brick is unstable. The thing with brickwork and any stonework is that once the joints are compromised, all hell can break loose at any time. You need to do several things right off. First off, get a 6 x 12 wooden beam and jack it up under sagging overhear and support it with some 6x 6 posts set four feet apart. Then you need to brace the brick (veneer if you will ) face of the house so that doesn't topple down the way to do that is with sheets of plywood and 2 x 8 braces sandwiched three layers thick like a  beam-- - stagger the joints to get the length you need and angled to the ground with stakes driven in behind them so the braces can't kick out. Beyond that you need to put up some signs cautioning people. That's all to protect anyone from getting hurt or you from getting sued. You don't need either. Sorry to say, my advice would be not to trust the yahoo that built this although if he is still in business you are obligated to give him the opportunity to correct the problem. You need to contact your own insurance agent for advice on what to do dealing with the contractor's insurance. Your homeowner's will get involved because they would be on the hook to your mortgage company if the city declared the house uninhabitable for any reason. You should also get an independant inspection outside of the the company that built the house. I would be interested to see photos from inside the building on the opposite of those photos showing the cracks in the joints of the brickwork. If they did use brick ties and you've got all this going on, it could be pulling down some of the structure the brick ties are nailed to. We've got a bunch of folks in the business on this site. John Q ( Big Daddy) Chip (Silver / Black ) JCZ to name a few. Where do you live ?

B B

[Chief]

Chief
        The reason I said the house is structurally unsound is because all that brick is unstable. The thing with brickwork and any stonework is that once the joints are compromised, all hell can break loose at any time. You need to do several things right off. First off, get a 6 x 12 wooden beam and jack it up under sagging overhear and support it with some 6x 6 posts set four feet apart. Then you need to brace the brick (veneer if you will ) face of the house so that doesn't topple down the way to do that is with sheets of plywood and 2 x 8 braces sandwiched three layers thick like a  beam-- - stagger the joints to get the length you need and angled to the ground with stakes driven in behind them so the braces can't kick out. Beyond that you need to put up some signs cautioning people. That's all to protect anyone from getting hurt or you from getting sued. You don't need either. Sorry to say, my advice would be not to trust the yahoo that built this although if he is still in business you are obligated to give him the opportunity to correct the problem. You need to contact your own insurance agent for advice on what to do dealing with the contractor's insurance. Your homeowner's will get involved because they would be on the hook to your mortgage company if the city declared the house uninhabitable for any reason. You should also get an independant inspection outside of the the company that built the house. I would be interested to see photos from inside the building on the opposite of those photos showing the cracks in the joints of the brickwork. If they did use brick ties and you've got all this going on, it could be pulling down some of the structure the brick ties are nailed to. We've got a bunch of folks in the business on this site. John Q ( Big Daddy) Chip (Silver / Black ) JCZ to name a few. Where do you live ?

B B

Brian,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate you taking the time to be so thorough. As for the inside, I hae looked for anything and eveything to indicate interior movement, and can't see anything, inside the garage, master bath and adjoining closet. I don't see any pulled caulk, tape, cracks, or any other signs of stress or strain. That's probably why I didn't see this earlier as there are no signs except the shifted brick.

We're leaving tomorrow for DC and will address the situation next week.

Thanks to everyone who has shared their concerns and suggestions on this issue. My head is spinning 100 mph, trying to put together a plan. Thanks for all of your input.

Chuck

[SBB]

Chuck

Thanks for the message!

My response is probably not going to be a popular one, but hell, most of mine aren't.

A couple of things,

Brickwork is just like concrete which is just like stucco, it's a masonry product.
ALL masonry products CRACK!
Whether on the surface or under, there will be cracks.
When brick is attached to another surface cracking is inevitable.
Also note that correctly installed brick will carry itself. Brick installed correctly is self supporting.
(look at stone and brick arches done hundreds of years ago as proof)
Lintels provide support for masonry product when they are first layed (or installed).
Brick ties provide the same and also offer laterial support.

But to your situation,
Every day, every second on your house you are having movement. Even if measured in the thousandth of an inch there is movement. My opinion is that the lintel that was originally installed was not of sufficient strength to carry the weight of the brick load above it as it was installed. That is where the bow you see came from. The lintel was carrying all the load (along with the brick ties) until the mortor dried (setup).
The picture that shows the gap under the lintel is the most telling of all to me. That tells me the brick is carrying itself and not even resting on the lintel. Assuming there are brick ties that provide the lateral support in that wall I would ask your painter to caulk the cracks next to the windows and find some mortor that matches and point up
(fill in) the cracks in the brick. I would bet money that come winter time the gap above the lintel will close some and not be as noticeable. That would be my game plan if that was my house.

Or,
You could call the builder and raise all mortal hell about how your house is falling down and your going to call the local TV station. Then request him to get a structural engineer to come look at it and give you a letter concerning the condition of your home along with the recommendation for a fix. Then go get you some mortor and some caulk.

After that, go on with your life and have fun riding and have fun on this site. I look forward to your post and meeting you someday. No racing though, that chit gets me in to much trouble!

 

[HogBreath]

Chuck

Thanks for the message!

My response is probably not going to be a popular one, but hell, most of mine aren't.

A couple of things,

Brickwork is just like concrete which is just like stucco, it's a masonry product.
ALL masonry products CRACK!
Whether on the surface or under, there will be cracks.
When brick is attached to another surface cracking is inevitable.
Also note that correctly installed brick will carry itself. Brick installed correctly is self supporting.
(look at stone and brick arches done hundreds of years ago as proof)
Lintels provide support for masonry product when they are first layed (or installed).
Brick ties provide the same and also offer laterial support.

But to your situation,
Every day, every second on your house you are having movement. Even if measured in the thousandth of an inch there is movement. My opinion is that the lintel that was originally installed was not of sufficient strength to carry the weight of the brick load above it as it was installed. That is where the bow you see came from. The lintel was carrying all the load (along with the brick ties) until the mortor dried (setup).
The picture that shows the gap under the lintel is the most telling of all to me. That tells me the brick is carrying itself and not even resting on the lintel. Assuming there are brick ties that provide the lateral support in that wall I would ask your painter to caulk the cracks next to the windows and find some mortor that matches and point up
(fill in) the cracks in the brick. I would bet money that come winter time the gap above the lintel will close some and not be as noticeable. That would be my game plan if that was my house.

Or,
You could call the builder and raise all mortal hell about how your house is falling down and your going to call the local TV station. Then request him to get a structural engineer to come look at it and give you a letter concerning the condition of your home along with the recommendation for a fix. Then go get you some mortor and some caulk.

After that, go on with your life and have fun riding and have fun on this site. I look forward to your post and meeting you someday. No racing though, that chit gets me in to much trouble!

 

I tend to agree 100%. I'm not a home builder, but I am a GC. The brick veneer wall is not going to fall off. It's going to crack, period. I see sheetrock crack around door headers in most homes. Movement, a little settlement. Sheetrock and brick will crack.

[WFP]

every wither, the doors to our master bath and closet stick...every summer they swing free...this has gone on for the last 8+ years we have been in the house.  Houses definately move...

[SBB]

I tend to agree 100%. I'm not a home builder, but I am a GC. The brick veneer wall is not going to fall off. It's going to crack, period. I see sheetrock crack around door headers in most homes. Movement, a little settlement. Sheetrock and brick will crack.

Hey thanks Ken!

That reminds me of a point I forgot to make.

In Chucks post he also said that there was no sheetrock cracks or tape coming loose.
That is just another indication that the cracks in the brick are normal and there are no foundation issues at play here!

Sheetrock, just like mortor, stucco or concrete does and will crack.

Thanks H/B!

S
  /
    B

[The Mysterious Q!]

Chip I see it the same wat you do. Every job we do with veneer there is cracking bin the mortar joints. Wood moves with humidity and seasonal changes,stone and mortar don't. The lintel as all have said is not sufficient enough to hold the weight of the brick above hence the bow(like you have also said). Is the house safe,yes its safe its only settling but if you look at the pics it seems the whole section above the garage door is pulling as one mass to the right and thats why the cracks are following themselves to the weakest point in a zig zag from the weakest point. Once a grout line goes and you get the mass moving its like a fault line and it follows to the next weakest grout joint until it alleviates the pressure on it.With the amount of weight on that lintel(i.e. the floor above)It should have been either a steel I or channel that was posted to the foundation enough to carry the load on its own ,not a typical lintel installation of sitting it on the brick and lagging it to the header. But construction practices are different everywhere. Here we have hurricane engineering ,and snow loads to deal with so we tend to over engineer. I in my business use structural engineer for all my load calcs and steel drawings.So in conclusion, I think Chief is not in any immenent danger but it will continue to sag and the mortar joints where the cracks are will still get larger until its properly supported.Also you noted the space between the brick and the lintel with out actually seeing it first hand the gap you see may be the steel rolling forward becaues of the weight on it and the sag it is forming.There is no way to tell in that pic. Also brick ties may be strong but they aren't going to hold brick lateraly with out sag. My .02  Later,Q

[Chief]

Chip,

Thanks for your input. I agree about masonry products cracking, and I have no problem with hairline cracks. The problem here is not the crack, but the subsequent movement. The brick veneer around, and to the right of, the window has rotated CW. There is a 1/2" gap at the upper left of the bathroom window and a downward deflection of the lintel in the middle of the span across the garage door. The vertical corner over the garage door has shifted left-to-right enough to pop the miter joint in the trim. There is another crack / gap about 1/4" in width in the window sill about 3 bricks from the left. The crack travels from there downward towards the column, which is acting as the pivot point for the above noted rotation.

The gap between the brick and the lintel is at the outer edge of the lintel, and appears to be because the lintel has either tilted forward, or the included angle has increased to more than the initial 90 degrees caused by the deformation.

While I am not overly concerned that it is going to fall down while we are away, I am looking to address the problem with additional structure to increase the factor of safety of the design to 2.0.

I appreciate your time.

Thank you,

Chuck

[Chief]

Chip I see it the same wat you do. Every job we do with veneer there is cracking bin the mortar joints. Wood moves with humidity and seasonal changes,stone and mortar don't. The lintel as all have said is not sufficient enough to hold the weight of the brick above hence the bow(like you have also said). Is the house safe,yes its safe its only settling but if you look at the pics it seems the whole section above the garage door is pulling as one mass to the right and thats why the cracks are following themselves to the weakest point in a zig zag from the weakest point. Once a grout line goes and you get the mass moving its like a fault line and it follows to the next weakest grout joint until it alleviates the pressure on it.With the amount of weight on that lintel(i.e. the floor above)It should have been either a steel I or channel that was posted to the foundation enough to carry the load on its own ,not a typical lintel installation of sitting it on the brick and lagging it to the header. But construction practices are different everywhere. Here we have hurricane engineering ,and snow loads to deal with so we tend to over engineer. I in my business use structural engineer for all my load calcs and steel drawings.So in conclusion, I think Chief is not in any immenent danger but it will continue to sag and the mortar joints where the cracks are will still get larger until its properly supported.Also you noted the space between the brick and the lintel with out actually seeing it first hand the gap you see may be the steel rolling forward becaues of the weight on it and the sag it is forming.There is no way to tell in that pic. Also brick ties may be strong but they aren't going to hold brick lateraly with out sag. My .02  Later,Q

Thanks John.

Your comment on the lintel gap is the same as mine. The gap is wedge shaped, not one with parallel sides.

Chuck

[SBB]

OK

I understand B/Daddy's point and yours also Chuck!

I learned a long time ago that as the person that's paying the bills I'm the one people go after. But in court my opinions mean nothing. It's only the guys (or girls) that have the stamp or seal that are willing to write the letter or testify that the court believes.

So Chuck don't sweat much but follow up with the builder when you get back.
If they blow you off call your insurance company and put them on notice as to your concern.
Eventually someone will engage the services of a licensed and state approved engineer to make an assesment of the issue!

Good luck!

 

[Chief]

OK

I understand B/Daddy's point and yours also Chuck!

I learned a long time ago that as the person that's paying the bills I'm the one people go after. But in court my opinions mean nothing. It's only the guys (or girls) that have the stamp or seal that are willing to write the letter or testify that the court believes.

So Chuck don't sweat much but follow up with the builder when you get back.
If they blow you off call your insurance company and put them on notice as to your concern.
Eventually someone will engage the services of a licensed and state approved engineer to make an assesment of the issue!

Good luck!

 

Chip,

I'm not after anyone. I'm just not like that. I did try to contact the builder, but I'm getting a feeling he's nowhere to be found. I don't think it should be too terribly expensive (famous last words). I just want to get it taken care of. I only want to do it once, and make sure its done right.

I'm sure this isn't going to be my last post on the subject. Part of this was a vent the other was a knowledge search.

Hopefully no chrome will need to be sold to pay for repairs.

[The Mysterious Q!]

I agree Chip get a qualified structural engineer to look at it and when he makes his assessment then bring his findings to your builder and go from there. Later,Q 

[SBB]

Chip,

I'm not after anyone. I'm just not like that. I did try to contact the builder, but I'm getting a feeling he's nowhere to be found. I don't think it should be too terribly expensive (famous last words). I just want to get it taken care of. I only want to do it once, and make sure its done right.

I'm sure this isn't going to be my last post on the subject. Part of this was a vent the other was a knowledge search.

Hopefully no chrome will need to be sold to pay for repairs.

Chuck

The builder may be out of business but I would bet the farm his insurance carrier isn't.
And you go after the deep pockets first!

Keep us up on whats happening!

 

[Chief]

Chuck

The builder may be out of business but I would bet the farm his insurance carrier isn't.
And you go after the deep pockets first!

Keep us up on whats happening!

 

Chip,

Thanks for reminding me. How would I find out who his carrier is / was?

[SBB]

Chip,

Thanks for reminding me. How would I find out who his carrier is / was?

Hold on a minute,
Let me ask the smartest woman I know,

Nancy, how would Chuck figure that out?

S
  /
    B

[Hoist!]

It appeared to me, as I mentioned yesterday to you, that pointing the facde would probably suffice. I would have a SE look at it and make recommendations to the garage lintel situation. A simple fix for that, although not ideal, would be to add a column to the center of the lintel, and shim it so it can not sag further or even try to jack it up a little. But definitely get an SE to check it, in case this turns ugly with the builder/insurance company. Good luck Chief. Hoist!

[reo]

Sorry to see what happened to your house Cheif. Now I can see your going to get all kinds of help here and I don't want to confuse you with your head spinning in anger. From my experience of being gc on my last two houses I can only suggest not doing anything to modify what happened to your house till you find out if you have any recourse. I had a garage many years ago look much worst than that before it got dangerous and I'm not saying it is not dangerous at this point but if you even jack up that sill above the garage you could change the outcome of a possible litigation. Every state is different in how builders have to be bonded, but usually every sub needs a permit and has to prove being bonded before getting a permit. I would ask who was the general contractor building your house or did you just buy from a developer. Your town/city my have a building commissioner, start with him. There may have been requirements that had to be followed from the house plan that the architecture drew up. Also there might have been regular sign offs on each phase of the building process that would have to be checked by city/town inspectors.

The bottom line is I wouldn't want to see you overlook someone who obviously was responsible and might still be liable for a mistake that caused your current problem.

Roy.....

[Chief]

Sorry to see what happened to your house Cheif. Now I can see your going to get all kinds of help here and I don't want to confuse you with your head spinning in anger. From my experience of being gc on my last two houses I can only suggest not doing anything to modify what happened to your house till you find out if you have any recourse. I had a garage many years ago look much worst than that before it got dangerous and I'm not saying it is not dangerous at this point but if you even jack up that sill above the garage you could change the outcome of a possible litigation. Every state is different in how builders have to be bonded, but usually every sub needs a permit and has to prove being bonded before getting a permit. I would ask who was the general contractor building your house or did you just buy from a developer. Your town/city my have a building commissioner, start with him. There may have been requirements that had to be followed from the house plan that the architecture drew up. Also there might have been regular sign offs on each phase of the building process that would have to be checked by city/town inspectors.

The bottom line is I wouldn't want to see you overlook someone who obviously was responsible and might still be liable for a mistake that caused your current problem.

Roy.....

Thanks Roy. The house was a spec home which we bought directly from the builder. So far, no luck in getting in contact with him. He was a small operation, building one house at a time. We found the house finished, so never had any opportunity to watch the progress, not that it would have done any good.

I'll look to get some professional analysis next week.

Thanks for everyone's ideas.

Chuck

[HogBreath]

This is off topic some I guess. Oh, well, continue to look over me and my posts. I pour a lot of concrete slabs in my business. 6,000 SF to 40,000 SF all at one time. Time after time I have customers ask me, "Do you guarantee it won't crack?" To which I reply, "No, I guarantee you it WILL crack."

On a concrete slab 400' long it will crack every 20-25 feet. I use sawed joints to try and control the cracks so it's a straight crack. It's no mors tructurally sound that a crooked crack, it's simply more pleasing to the eye. At least it will appear like I know what I'm doing.

My point, concrete products crack. Bricks and mortar joints will crack. It's caused from shrinkage. I always wondered why they called it expansion joints?

[Chief]

This is off topic some I guess. Oh, well, continue to look over me and my posts. I pour a lot of concrete slabs in my business. 6,000 SF to 40,000 SF all at one time. Time after time I have customers ask me, "Do you guarantee it won't crack?" To which I reply, "No, I guarantee you it WILL crack."

On a concrete slab 400' long it will crack every 20-25 feet. I use sawed joints to try and control the cracks so it's a straight crack. It's no mors tructurally sound that a crooked crack, it's simply more pleasing to the eye. At least it will appear like I know what I'm doing.

My point, concrete products crack. Bricks and mortar joints will crack. It's caused from shrinkage. I always wondered why they called it expansion joints?

Ken,

I'm ok with the crack, it's the 1/2" gap that gets me going. Notice the big gap upper-left of the window, and the smaller crack on the left side of the sill. This whole piece has rotated slightly about a point down and to the left.

I can't imagine it will stop before doing some major damage as it continues to bow the lintel. I hope it turns out to be as simple as something like the lintel coming loose from the header. I think that should be fairly easy to remedy.

[iski]

Thanks Roy. The house was a spec home which we bought directly from the builder. So far, no luck in getting in contact with him. He was a small operation, building one house at a time. We found the house finished, so never had any opportunity to watch the progress, not that it would have done any good.

I'll look to get some professional analysis next week.

Thanks for everyone's ideas.

Chuck

Read the thread - you have tons of great advice already.  You are taking the best course - professional advice.  Might check with more than one company for comparison purposes.

[reo]

Thanks Roy. The house was a spec home which we bought directly from the builder. So far, no luck in getting in contact with him. He was a small operation, building one house at a time. We found the house finished, so never had any opportunity to watch the progress, not that it would have done any good.

I'll look to get some professional analysis next week.

Thanks for everyone's ideas.

Chuck

Good luck Chuck,

I would love to know the spec on the lintel that was put in place, the architect would have listed the spec for the steel to be ordered (length, width and thickness) on the blueprint and the general contractor would have ordered the steel. The brick guy just uses whats there.

Roy.....

[Chief]

Good luck Chuck,

I would love to know the spec on the lintel that was put in place, the architect would have listed the spec for the steel to be ordered (length, width and thickness) on the blueprint and the general contractor would have ordered the steel. The brick guy just uses whats there.

Roy.....

I tried to get a set, but no go on that one. I could mic it out, but I'll venture a guess that it's undersized. I'm pretty confident on that. Of course this is based purely on empirical data collected in the field.

[reo]

I tried to get a set, but no go on that one. I could Mic it out, but I'll venture a guess that it's undersized. I'm pretty confident on that. Of course this is based purely on empirical data collected in the field.

I don't have knowledge of what is protocol in your area but I can tell you if you would have a house in this area what happens, maybe it can help you. the towns cities here generally have a building commissioner and the house doesn't get started on till they have a blueprint and it is approved. With how old your house is that print would still be available. Even if you could come up with the architect that signed off on the project he should be able to come up with the print. I would start with the city/town avenue first as all the subs involved in building your house probably won't be cooperative. In our area another avenue is contacting a realestate attorney, one that specializes in realestate, they will know the shortest course of action.

[Chief]

I don't have knowledge of what is protocol in your area but I can tell you if you would have a house in this area what happens, maybe it can help you. the towns cities here generally have a building commissioner and the house doesn't get started on till they have a blueprint and it is approved. With how old your house is that print would still be available. Even if you could come up with the architect that signed off on the project he should be able to come up with the print. I would start with the city/town avenue first as all the subs involved in building your house probably won't be cooperative. In our area another avenue is contacting a realestate attorney, one that specializes in realestate, they will know the shortest course of action.

Reo,

You've got some good ideas. Thanks.

[SBB]

Good luck Chuck,

I would love to know the spec on the lintel that was put in place, the architect would have listed the spec for the steel to be ordered (length, width and thickness) on the blueprint and the general contractor would have ordered the steel. The brick guy just uses whats there.

Roy.....

Roy

The lintel is supplied by the masonry contractor in a turn key job.
And there's the possibility that the plan didn't specify the size of the angle.
And I hate to say it but some masons will say, "nothing on the plans  so I buying the cheapest lintel I can"


So Chuck, try to get a copy of the building permit.
That may show who did what work and may include the plans and specs if there are any.
Just another thought!


 

[The Mysterious Q!]

On spec homes its a race to get it finished. And being in a Burb of Hotlanta the area is on fire and the inspectors probably have a full plate and do "drive by inspections" because of the work load. i have seen it happen anytime we are in a boom.  Later,Q

[reo]

Roy

The lintel is supplied by the masonry contractor in a turn key job.
And there's the possibility that the plan didn't specify the size of the angle.
And I hate to say it but some masons will say, "nothing on the plans  so I buying the cheapest lintel I can"


So Chuck, try to get a copy of the building permit.
That may show who did what work and may include the plans and specs if there are any.
Just another thought!


 

You could be on to something, my mason supplied all lintels above the windows and I had no brick going to the second story so that was not an issue. My garage did have brick going above to a header two stories and I bought the steel for above the garage doors with the beams and lally columns for the supporting the structure over the basement. My plans had spec's for steel I previously referred to excepting the windows.

I would think even if it wasn't on the print if the gereral knew what he was doing he would have got the steel to support the brick over windows garage doors going two stories up.

Roy......

[The Mysterious Q!]

You could be on to something, my mason supplied all lintels above the windows and I had no brick going to the second story so that was not an issue. My garage did have brick going above to a header two stories and I bought the steel for above the garage doors with the beams and lally columns for the supporting the structure over the basement. My plans had spec's for steel I previously referred to excepting the windows.

I would think even if it wasn't on the print if the gereral knew what he was doing he would have got the steel to support the brick over windows garage doors going two stories up.

Roy......

  Like I said earlier there should have been some structural dwgs to go with the build plans. But when its a spec lots of things get "over looked"

[reo]

  Like I said earlier there should have been some structural dwgs to go with the build plans. But when its a spec lots of things get "over looked"

I totally agree with you BigDaddy, your post slipped in there somehow. We had a case some time ago during a big housing boom here where a county wasn't ready for it and had no inspectors to keep up as you said earlier. There was all kinds of lawsuits hinging on lally columns not being set correctly, brick issues like in this thread and dryvit not being installed correctly (like we want to start talking about dryvit here), it was absolute kayos and making the newspapers here I felt sorry for all those people that had to deal with these issues.

Roy...

[Chief]

Today I had a structural engineer come out and look at the brick cracks. His preliminary analysis is long term beam sag leading to cracks in the brick veneer.

I'll be peeling the inside of the garage wall this weekend to get an idea what the underlying structure looks like so we can get a clearer picture of what exactly needs to be done.

Currently we're looking at jacking and adding extra support, LVL or other engineered product. Removing the sheet rock to the ceiling and replacing with plywood would also lend a huge amount of support and become a stressed skin wall to help out whatever we wind up with as a final beam. I've got 4 feet of wall above the garage door, so that is definitely an option.

His thoughts are that we can close up some of the cracks by jacking, but probably not all of them. We'll strengthen the structure and then let it sit for a couple of months and then re-point the masonry after any new settlement has subsided.

He says it does not look like anything has actually failed, but the sag was just more than the masonry could handle.

This weekend will yield a lot more answers to all of my questions.

[SBB]

Chief

As I said before, your issue doesn't look like a "major" failure.
I also doubt that the cracks will disappear even with new support.
After the Eng. has given his report and the corrections made then point up will work best.
Check the thickness of the drywall on the garage door header wall and if it's 5/8's then use 5/8's for the new support material. That will also help!

S
  /
    B

[Chief]

Failure analysis is done. There is a problem with the lintel attachment allowing the lintel to sag and tilt.

The main beam is made up of two LVL beams 1 3/4" x 24", way more than is needed to support everything. That's some beefy chit at 24" tall.

The problem is happeing because the masonry contractor did not adequately tighten the lintel against the beam. The lintel was shimmed away from the beam for spacing and left a gap around the bolts. The lag bolts are visible when looking up from the bottom. It is thought that without proper clamping between the lintel and beam, the lag bolts have pitched down from the load allowing the lintel to sag.

To remedy the situation, the lintel will be lifted with jacks and a few bricks will be removed to gain access to the bolts. The lag bolts will be removed, proper shimming installed and new through bolts and washers will be installed to adequately clamp everything together.

Once the mechanical fixes have been performed, cosmetic repairs will be done to repoint the bricks and be done with it.

I appreciate everyone's willingness to offer opinions on this non-motorcycle topic.

Thank you.

[reo]

Good to hear you finally got a solution to fix this problem Chief. Something like this could have developed into a nightmare had you not fixed it at this point. Very interesting story of how a simple shortcut someone takes can cause big problems much later, thanks for keeping us posted.

Roy.......

[SPIDERMAN]

Great news. Sorry if I went off, but I was thinking you had a masonry wall and not a veneer. Who's picking up the tab ?

[Chief]

Great news. Sorry if I went off, but I was thinking you had a masonry wall and not a veneer. Who's picking up the tab ?

No sweat. I appreciate everyone's input. I thought about everything everyone said.

Uh, that would be me, all the way around. $400 for an engineer's report and then the repair. I'm hoping to get out for under a g-note.

[iski]

All in all, not too bad, Chief.  Peace of mind is worth more than that.