Topic: Am I Out of Line? (Read 6670 times)

Chief · « **on:** June 19, 2007, 09:46:00 AM »

My mother, widowed, lives in the small town of Beverly Hills, FL which is about 20 miles west of Ocala. Yesterday she had a local plumber come to her house because she had a leaky toilet. She told me she was going to call a plumber and I thought that was the right thing to do.

I spoke to her last evening, and she told me she was charged just under $350 to repair a leaky toilet!!!!! The plumber presented her with different options on rebuilding the toilet and she chose from the list. Now, she knew the cost upfront, and had agreed to pay it, but it will take a lot to convince me that anyone deserves to be paid $290 for one hour of work to replace a tank seal and a fill valve.

I spoke to the plumber and they informed me they price based on national averages. BS I say!!! I'll say it again, $290 to replace a fill valve and tank seal is highway robbery. And a service charge of $60 on top of that to boot.

I contacted one of the large plumbers here in the Atlanta area, and their charge for the same is $149.60 with no service charge. A number like that is what I expected.

Needless to say, I'm outraged.

WWW.PATTHEPLUMBER.COM

Am I out of line?

hard10 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 19, 2007, 10:04:19 AM »

Chief, You should be upset but look at it this way:

Drive to Ocala: 5 1/2 hours X $50/ hr (lost work time) $300

Fuel: 375 miles (15 MPG) = 25 X $3.20 = $80

Time spent with mom: priceless

Now who are you mad at?

Have a better day buddy!

ultrafxr · « **Reply #2 on:** June 19, 2007, 10:05:05 AM »

I don't think so Chief. This looks like highway robbery to me. When you have a problem you are not capable of repairing and you need plumbing to work NOW it is kind of hard to shop around. So they know they have the upper hand. Plumbing ain't exactly rocket science. Only three things you really gotta know: hot is on the left, cold is on the right and chit don't run uphill!

Chief · « **Reply #3 on:** June 19, 2007, 10:07:53 AM »

Quote from: hard10 on June 19, 2007, 10:04:19 AM

Chief, You should be upset but look at it this way:

Drive to Ocala: 5 1/2 hours X $50/ hr (lost work time) $300

Fuel: 375 miles (15 MPG) = 25 X $3.20 = $80

Time spent with mom: priceless

Now who are you mad at?

Have a better day buddy!

If I had known it would have cost that much, that'd be enough of a reason to jump on the scoot and go fix it for her. Stuff like that just really pisses me off! It's shooting fish in a barrel, and they know it.

Rooster · « **Reply #4 on:** June 19, 2007, 10:10:27 AM »

Quote from: ultrafxr on June 19, 2007, 10:05:05 AM

I don't think so Chief. This looks like highway robbery to me. When you have a problem you are not capable of repairing and you need plumbing to work NOW it is kind of hard to shop around. So they know they have the upper hand. Plumbing ain't exactly rocket science. Only three things you really gotta know: hot is on the left, cold is on the right and chit don't run uphill!

And don't lick your fingers

RJ749 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 19, 2007, 10:59:15 AM »

I just whent through this myself at the office. I believe the charge was approximately $100.00.

Only catch was the wankers came back three or four times as the replacement would fail again in a few weeks.

So I guess I ended up with the $300.00 charge anyway.

I put in a new toilet, problem solved. Hard to know what was the issue with such a simple part but we have been fighting that one toilet for five years.

Chief · « **Reply #6 on:** June 19, 2007, 11:16:05 AM »

I just got off the phone with the Operations Manager, and I tell you what, the arrogance of these people is amazing. They really act like they are doing you a favor by even showing up.

I found a post on PissedConsumer.com posted just two days ago by someone ranting about how Pat The Plumber treated their widowed mother in the same area. Looks like it is not an isolated incident.

Base charge for rebuilding a toilet? $282.

Base charge for putting washers in bathtub faucets, from the post I found, $282. Is it just me? I don't think so.

erniezap · « **Reply #7 on:** June 19, 2007, 11:18:37 AM »

I'd contact the Better Business Bureau, the local Chamber of Commerce, the the Department of Consumer Affairs and register complaints. You can also contact the local District Attorney about it. Might as well make their life a little more miserable...

Hoist! · « **Reply #8 on:** June 19, 2007, 11:49:39 AM »

Quote from: ultrafxr on June 19, 2007, 10:05:05 AM

I don't think so Chief. This looks like highway robbery to me. When you have a problem you are not capable of repairing and you need plumbing to work NOW it is kind of hard to shop around. So they know they have the upper hand. Plumbing ain't exactly rocket science. Only three things you really gotta know: hot is on the left, cold is on the right and chit don't run uphill!

Only 2 things really. The air goes up and the chit goes down!

Chief, if it's the only bathroom, you were stuck with these idiots who unfortunately felt the need to take advantage of her. If she has a second BR, you probably should have gone to HD or Lowes and replaced it. That would have been cheaper than repairing the old one. Sorry dude! It sucks getting ripped off! Hoist!

Chief · « **Reply #9 on:** June 19, 2007, 12:07:09 PM »

Quote from: Hoist on June 19, 2007, 11:49:39 AM

Only 2 things really. The air goes up and the chit goes down!

Chief, if it's the only bathroom, you were stuck with these idiots who unfortunately felt the need to take advantage of her. If she has a second BR, you probably should have gone to HD or Lowes and replaced it. That would have been cheaper than repairing the old one. Sorry dude! It sucks getting ripped off! Hoist!

Here's the kicker! I asked her why didn't she just shut off the toilet so it wouldn't be such an urgent matter and she said because the shut off valve isn't working properly. They had to turn off the water to the whole house to work on the toilet. So, being the inquisitive son I am, asked her did the plumber replace the shut off valve while he was there. She said no, because that would have been an additional charge. From what I have found on the web at PissedConsumer.com, I bet they would have charged her over $100 to replace a $4 valve.

I'm going down in July for her birthday, and I'll make sure to replace that bad valve and rebulid the other toilet since they're both the same age. And......I won't even charge her.

The Mysterious Q! · « **Reply #10 on:** June 19, 2007, 12:09:53 PM »

I hate it when these type of jackasses take advantage of the situation.It maks all of us in the trades look bad and that is the reason we see all these reports on Dateline about contractor scams. If anyone has relatives in my area call me and I will gladly take care of them.And no Chief you are not out of line making these assholes pay. My .02 Later,Q

displacing air · « **Reply #11 on:** June 19, 2007, 12:17:16 PM »

I think I would call the plumbing company and inform them that you have found
a newspaper that wants to print a story about the abuses of seniors in Fl. And you
would be using them as an example...if they would wave the bill you wont mention there
company by name...we will just say plumbers.

Media loves this crap...only thing better is if a kid or dog was involved!

DisAir

ultrafxr · « **Reply #12 on:** June 19, 2007, 12:38:51 PM »

Local TV stations love doing stories on this sort of thing. Little guy gets ripped off. Might be work a phone call - and if you could contact the other dissatisfied customers you found on the web site might get them involved also.

iski · « **Reply #13 on:** June 19, 2007, 12:44:57 PM »

Quote from: Chief on June 19, 2007, 12:07:09 PM

Here's the kicker! I asked her why didn't she just shut off the toilet so it wouldn't be such an urgent matter and she said because the shut off valve isn't working properly. They had to turn off the water to the whole house to work on the toilet. So, being the inquisitive son I am, asked her did the plumber replace the shut off valve while he was there. She said no, because that would have been an additional charge. From what I have found on the web at PissedConsumer.com, I bet they would have charged her over $100 to replace a $4 valve.

I'm going down in July for her birthday, and I'll make sure to replace that bad valve and rebulid the other toilet since they're both the same age. And......I won't even charge her.

Chief - charges were WAY out of line. Predatory practices, IMHO. Trouble is, she agreed to the charges prior to the work performed. Situations like this burn me up - a few $$ for parts and about an hour or less and most toilet issues are resolved. Good of you to rebuild her other one.

Doubt you will get any satisfaction regardless from this plumbing company. Sounds like one of those wrecker services that finds someone stuck in a ditch and when asked how much it will be to pull the car out they say "How much ya got?"

Chief · « **Reply #14 on:** June 19, 2007, 02:05:59 PM »

I contacted the Citrus County Chamber of Commerce and they directed me to the Seniors vs Crime Project I contacted the office in Citrus County and told the nice lady what was going on and when I told her the name of the plumber, she said "Ohhhhhh, Pat the Plumber. We know all about them." Not that this will do any good, but it did make me feel a bit better. Well, I filled out a complaint on my mother's behalf, and she is going to go over and fill one out herself.

I then sent an email to the plumber with links to all the different postings and information about the Seniors vs Crime complaints just so they know I'm more than a "couple of angry phone calls" guy.

Good thing its a slow day around the office.

I doubt anything will come out of this, but if I can prevent just one other person from using this company, it is all worthwhile.

The Mysterious Q! · « **Reply #15 on:** June 19, 2007, 04:37:48 PM »

Good job Chief!

MJZ · « **Reply #16 on:** June 19, 2007, 05:05:49 PM »

Quote from: Chief on June 19, 2007, 02:05:59 PM

I contacted the Citrus County Chamber of Commerce and they directed me to the Seniors vs Crime Project I contacted the office in Citrus County and told the nice lady what was going on and when I told her the name of the plumber, she said "Ohhhhhh, Pat the Plumber. We know all about them." Not that this will do any good, but it did make me feel a bit better. Well, I filled out a complaint on my mother's behalf, and she is going to go over and fill one out herself.

I then sent an email to the plumber with links to all the different postings and information about the Seniors vs Crime complaints just so they know I'm more than a "couple of angry phone calls" guy.

Good thing its a slow day around the office.

I doubt anything will come out of this, but if I can prevent just one other person from using this company, it is all worthwhile.

Fortunately your Mom is in one of the few states that have a very active and proficient Contractors Licensing Board. File a complaint with the State of Florida Licensing Board and you will get satisfaction. They will have a formal hearing and based on his previous history of actions and complaints, they can and will revoke his license.
I get the Board actions and reviews, they are full every month of actions taken against bogus contractors.

iski · « **Reply #17 on:** June 19, 2007, 05:27:53 PM »

Chief, did a little searching and came up with this:

http://myfloridalegal.com/newsrel.nsf/newsreleases/07EA508828138B548525700C0062BA3D

That is a link to a story on S. Florida plumbing fraud that then AG Charlie Crist pursued some time back. He is now governor. Bill Mc Collum is the new Attorney General. The Fraud Hotline for Florida is: 866-966-7226. That bozo plumbing company might be "inspired" if they knew you are reporting them to the Florida AG as well. The link also has contact info for the State of Florida. I think about my Mom when stuff like this plumber over charging happens to others & it really does burn me up.

skippy · « **Reply #18 on:** June 19, 2007, 05:48:50 PM »

Just take him out behind the barn it works everytime

Screamin · « **Reply #19 on:** June 19, 2007, 06:08:45 PM »

No. You're not out of line and think the worse you can make these ahole's lives the better. Sorry your mom got taken.

Chief · « **Reply #20 on:** June 19, 2007, 06:39:49 PM »

Quote from: iski on June 19, 2007, 05:27:53 PM

Chief, did a little searching and came up with this:

http://myfloridalegal.com/newsrel.nsf/newsreleases/07EA508828138B548525700C0062BA3D

That is a link to a story on S. Florida plumbing fraud that then AG Charlie Crist pursued some time back. He is now governor. Bill Mc Collum is the new Attorney General. The Fraud Hotline for Florida is: 866-966-7226. That bozo plumbing company might be "inspired" if they knew you are reporting them to the Florida AG as well. The link also has contact info for the State of Florida. I think about my Mom when stuff like this plumber over charging happens to others & it really does burn me up.

Thanks iski,

While this company does charge ridiculous rates, they are upfront with it before the work is performed. They told me their prices are based on national averages that they get from Plumbers Success International. Well, I looked up this group and it is an association to help plumbers make more money. I'm pretty sure that's where they got all of their operating practices.

I don't feel they did anything illegal. They didn't scam her, but merely took advantage of a person who didn't know what it should cost. She said the guy was very well mannered. They have engineered a business plan that works, although you could get the same service for less than half of their fees elsewhere.

We'll see what happens tomorrow as I'm supposed to speak with the general manager.

Here's the kicker. I spoke to my mom this evening and she's got water on the floor again. Wonderful.

iski · « **Reply #21 on:** June 19, 2007, 06:50:42 PM »

Quote from: Chief on June 19, 2007, 06:39:49 PM

Thanks iski,

While this company does charge ridiculous rates, they are upfront with it before the work is performed. They told me their prices are based on national averages that they get from Plumbers Success International. Well, I looked up this group and it is an association to help plumbers make more money. I'm pretty sure that's where they got all of their operating practices.

I don't feel they did anything illegal. They didn't scam her, but merely took advantage of a person who didn't know what it should cost. She said the guy was very well mannered. They have engineered a business plan that works, although you could get the same service for less than half of their fees elsewhere.

We'll see what happens tomorrow as I'm supposed to speak with the general manager.

Here's the kicker. I spoke to my mom this evening and she's got water on the floor again. Wonderful.

Water on the floor again after paying almost $300 for a simple toilet fix? Wonder if its the seal also?

Even if technically they did nothing illegal, the AG will investigate price gouging operations. Florida has contractors who over charge for a variety of services. Other states do as well, granted, but the hurricane mentality (charge as much as the folks will pay x 10) created some laws to prosecute that sort of thing.

Something about your post made me think - for an auto we pay $20-30 or less for an oil change. For an HD (I change my own) its around $100 or more. Whatever the market will bear......

Chief · « **Reply #22 on:** June 19, 2007, 07:00:25 PM »

Quote from: iski on June 19, 2007, 06:50:42 PM

Water on the floor again after paying almost $300 for a simple toilet fix? Wonder if its the seal also?

Even if technically they did nothing illegal, the AG will investigate price gouging operations. Florida has contractors who over charge for a variety of services. Other states do as well, granted, but the hurricane mentality (charge as much as the folks will pay x 10) created some laws to prosecute that sort of thing.

Something about your post made me think - for an auto we pay $20-30 or less for an oil change. For an HD (I change my own) its around $100 or more. Whatever the market will bear......

I'm guessing they will come back out and determine it's something totally different and then present her with another outrageous estimate. This time she'll propmtly show them the door. I may be running to Beverly Hills this weekend afterall.

Gettinold · « **Reply #23 on:** June 19, 2007, 07:14:41 PM »

Cheif the next time your at your moms it may be a good idea to look for a "handy man" that could do simple jobs, like the toilet repair, that you could trust and depend on when the next problem should arise.
I feel your pain of what has happened and hope that it dont happen again. Its sad that there are bottom feeders that prey on our elders. Just try to prevent it from happening again is all you can do. Tell your mom we all are looking out for her.

Dave

hard10 · « **Reply #24 on:** June 19, 2007, 08:24:56 PM »

Quote from: skippy on June 19, 2007, 05:48:50 PM

Just take him out behind the barn it works everytime

Chief, we can drag his sorry a$$ up to Hoist!'s neighborhood and drop him off for a little 'work up.'

Quote from: Chief on June 19, 2007, 07:00:25 PM

... I may be running to Beverly Hills this weekend afterall.

Let me know if you're going. I'm going to post this elsewhere but I'm planning on going down to FL this weekend. Looks like leaving on Thursday. PM or call me if you go!

AJ

The Mysterious Q! · « **Reply #25 on:** June 20, 2007, 05:12:39 PM »

Quote from: hard10 on June 19, 2007, 08:24:56 PM

Chief, we can drag his sorry a$$ up to Hoist!'s neighborhood and drop him off for a little 'work up.'
Let me know if you're going. I'm going to post this elsewhere but I'm planning on going down to FL this weekend. Looks like leaving on Thursday. PM or call me if you go!

AJ

What you going to have the Chinamen karate chopem to death or what?

BigR55 · « **Reply #26 on:** June 20, 2007, 05:44:32 PM »

Great to see the compassion expressed here for your Mother.
I have the equivalent of a Doctorate in Chitology earned from owning rental property since I was 19. The majority of leaks comming on the floor level do indeed come from the wax seal as everyone knows. When the base is set, put your full weight on the base to compress the ring, tighten the bolts and then caulk around the base leaving a four inch gap in the very back. Let the caulk set overnight. The caulk will stop any rocking movement and keep the ring from squishing out and breaking the seal. Another thing to check is to see if the sewer pipe is clogged. What I have found with recurring problems is that the wax was not thick enough, not cleaned off the bowl before reinstalling or not lined up on the hole when the bowl is set. I did have one unusual one in my own home that took three tries to fix. My Kohler Comfort Height kept leaking on the floor and I pulled and carefully replaced the wax twice only to discover the leakage again. Turned out to be a crack in the outer shell of the bowl that allowed the water to drip under the base and run out. Hope this will help.

Chief · « **Reply #27 on:** June 21, 2007, 09:20:32 AM »

First, thank you to everyone for your support on this. Sometimes I'm out in left field, but when it comes to something like this, having our parents taken advantage of, there is no reason for it.

I spoke with Mom yesterday. The plumber returned to look at the persistent leak from under the tank, same plumber, very nice and clean shaven. He looked at the toilet and said that if there is still a leak, it must be a cracked tank. Standard fee for toilet and installation ~$500, but since she had work done, they would credit half of the $282 for the rebuild and bring it down to ~$350. This time Mom was ready for it and quickly showed him the door. Yeah Mom!!!

Pinkie and I will be driving down for her 71st in July, so Mom gets a new toilet for her birthday; every woman's dream birthday present. Well, and the digital cam she's been wanting too.

So this story ends on a good note. No-one got hurt too badly. I don't think we'll ever get any of the money back. But, we'll get her taken care of in short order.

iski · « **Reply #28 on:** June 21, 2007, 09:23:24 AM »

Good for your Mom Chief! She has a very good son, to be looking out for her so well.

A new toilet - every woman's dream come true......... I have posted somewhere or other that I do not understand wimmens & gave up trying a very long time ago.........

RJ749 · « **Reply #29 on:** June 21, 2007, 09:30:04 AM »

Quote from: Chief on June 21, 2007, 09:20:32 AM

First, thank you to everyone for your support on this. Sometimes I'm out in left field, but when it comes to something like this, having our parents taken advantage of, there is no reason for it.

I spoke with Mom yesterday. The plumber returned to look at the persistent leak from under the tank, same plumber, very nice and clean shaven. He looked at the toilet and said that if there is still a leak, it must be a cracked tank. Standard fee for toilet and installation ~$500, but since she had work done, they would credit half of the $282 for the rebuild and bring it down to ~$350. This time Mom was ready for it and quickly showed him the door. Yeah Mom!!!

Pinkie and I will be driving down for her 71st in July, so Mom gets a new toilet for her birthday; every woman's dream birthday present. Well, and the digital cam she's been wanting too.

So this story ends on a good note. No-one got hurt too badly. I don't think we'll ever get any of the money back. But, we'll get her taken care of in short order.

Maybe you could get them to small claims court for a missed diagnosis and competion of an un-needed repair. They sort of buried themselves with the second diagnosis (guess).

Most likely too much trouble to do small claims court, but you never know. Now might be a time for the TV consumer advocate reporter to give them a call.

charlie · « **Reply #30 on:** June 28, 2007, 07:07:54 PM »

know your not out of line. i live in Atlanta and it cost me 275.00 to have a sink put in on a job, about a hour's work.

Chief · « **Reply #31 on:** June 28, 2007, 07:16:08 PM »

I've been remiss in telling the latest on this story. Since I was planning on installing a new toilet on my visit next month, Mom passed on having a plumber friend of a friend look at it. After some persuading, she caved and let the nice guy come over to look at the commode. He said he can't see any sign of a crack. Maybe the original plumber didn't do anything at all to stop the leak, all the while planning on coming back and offering to install a new toilet for $309 on top of the $341 for the first service call. That $309 was reduced by half of the $282 for the original repair. Their normal cost for a new toilet is $450 installed.

The plumber, the affordable one, told her to fill the tank back up and call him if she had any more water on the floor. While he was there, he put a new washer in the shut off valve so the water to the whole house didn't have to be turned off to service the toilet. He wouldn't let her give him anything for the washer. The original plumber wouldn't do the shut off valve repair because that would have been an additional service that he would have had to charge her for.

Well, now she's got the name and number for a good plumber that will get plenty of good press in the neighborhood.

SOKOOLJ · « **Reply #32 on:** June 28, 2007, 07:54:04 PM »

Glad to hear the update and know that your mom is being taken care of.

iski · « **Reply #33 on:** June 29, 2007, 08:00:26 AM »

Sounds like the first plumber did not know what he was doing, or KNEW what he was doing the first time and hoped to turn a $50 or so normal service charge (plus washers) into a little bonanza for his company. Wonder if they work on a commission basis?

Thanks for the update Chief.

Chief · « **Reply #34 on:** June 29, 2007, 08:38:12 AM »

Quote from: iski on June 29, 2007, 08:00:26 AM

Sounds like the first plumber did not know what he was doing, or KNEW what he was doing the first time and hoped to turn a $50 or so normal service charge (plus washers) into a little bonanza for his company. Wonder if they work on a commission basis?

Thanks for the update Chief.

Since all this has happened, we have found out that the offending company is well known for their practices. Their listing in the phonebook is now highlighted with a black highlighter.

Author Topic: Am I Out of Line? (Read 6670 times)

BigR55

charlie