Topic: Oil Filter (Read 4377 times)

Midnight Rider · « **on:** June 06, 2006, 08:47:14 PM »

This has probably been discussed on here before, but I can't come up with anything in a search....

Recommended Oil Filter for the Ultra? HD or maybe K&N? Any advice will be most appreciated.......Thanks in advance!!

HUBBARD · « **Reply #1 on:** June 06, 2006, 09:19:33 PM »

I've always used HD filters. Might be wise to inspect before you purchase, though. I've had the experience of gettin' back to the Garage, only to find rust around inlet ports.

Not good.

Later--HUBBARD

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #2 on:** June 07, 2006, 06:55:07 AM »

I use and stock the newer HD filters I also use and stock Amsoil filters. Both seem to be fine as the new HD filters are a lot better than in the past. I believe down to 5 microns but will have to check.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Puzzled · « **Reply #3 on:** June 07, 2006, 07:36:40 AM »

Quote

I use and stock the newer HD filters I also use and stock Amsoil filters. Both seem to be fine as the new HD filters are a lot better than in the past. I believe down to 5 microns but will have to check.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Did they change them. The early Twin Cams were 10 micron and the Evo's were 30 micron (from memory). I'd be interested in an alternative to the HD filter at $13 a clip. My Dually Diesel takes a two quart filter and is around $10!
[smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #4 on:** June 07, 2006, 08:21:50 AM »

Check these out and give me your expert opinion....I found them when looking for the AC when I "rolled my own" system per the thread. The nut to remove seems like a handy thing. They don't give the microns, just "meets or exceeds" OEM. Click the "more" link for more tech talk. Since they make such excellent AC filters, I figured they must do a good job with this too. Don't have a basis for comparison though.

http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=KN-171C

grc · « **Reply #5 on:** June 07, 2006, 09:19:41 AM »

Quote

Check these out and give me your expert opinion....I found them when looking for the AC when I "rolled my own" system per the thread. The nut to remove seems like a handy thing. They don't give the microns, just "meets or exceeds" OEM. Click the "more" link for more tech talk. Since they make such excellent AC filters, I figured they must do a good job with this too. Don't have a basis for comparison though.

http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=KN-171C

TCnBham,

I use the K&N oil filter, and the nut on the end is nice for removal versus screwing with a regular filter wrench. I wasn't able to locate any information on the "micron" rating, but I did read an article about a year or so back where a gentleman tested oil filters, and the K&N was rated higher than the H-D 10 micron for removal of particles without bypassing. The finer H-D filters tend to bypass quite often, which means the oil goes straight to the engine without filtration. Since the oil doesn't bypass on a regular basis with the K&N, the higher micron filter actually outperformed the H-D part over time. The filters H-D has now "claim" to be 5 microns, BTW.

Jerry

110tHunDer · « **Reply #6 on:** June 07, 2006, 09:32:27 AM »

Quote

. . . The finer H-D filters tend to bypass quite often, which means the oil goes straight to the engine without filtration. Since the oil doesn't bypass on a regular basis with the K&N, the higher micron filter actually outperformed the H-D part over time. The filters H-D has now "claim" to be 5 microns, BTW.

Jerry

Jerry, I thought the filter had to be in pretty bad shape (i.e., full of crud) before it would bypass. If that's not right, what would cause the filter to bypass regularly?

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #7 on:** June 07, 2006, 11:10:33 AM »

One thing that got my interest on the K&N was the "anti-backflow" feature,which they claim allows oil to reach vital parts faster on cold starts. For all I know, all filters may do that now, including the HD. But I'm ignorant at this point about the oil flow in the Twin Cam engines, so don't know if this would be something to be concerned about or not. [smiley=confused5.gif]

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #8 on:** June 07, 2006, 11:20:33 AM »

I've e-mailed the tech dept at K&N to find out the specs for their filter...will post when/if I get a response.

OK.....this is full blown A/R OCD...at least I can recognize it in myself. It's those damn voices that are so annoying......

grc · « **Reply #9 on:** June 07, 2006, 11:49:58 AM »

Quote

One thing that got my interest on the K&N was the "anti-backflow" feature,which they claim allows oil to reach vital parts faster on cold starts. For all I know, all filters may do that now, including the HD. But I'm ignorant at this point about the oil flow in the Twin Cam engines, so don't know if this would be something to be concerned about or not. [smiley=confused5.gif]

The big difference in the Twin Cam oil flow from previous H-D's is that the oil now goes to the filter first, before flowing to the rest of the engine. Seems like a pretty common-sense method, but H-D didn't see fit to do it that way until the TC came out in 1999. BTW - I haven't noticed any difference in the amount of time for oil pressure to register between the H-D filter and the K&N, so I don't think the "drain-back" thing is an issue either way.

Jerry

grc · « **Reply #10 on:** June 07, 2006, 11:59:01 AM »

Quote

Jerry, I thought the filter had to be in pretty bad shape (i.e., full of crud) before it would bypass. If that's not right, what would cause the filter to bypass regularly?

Brian,

I wish I could find that article I alluded to, but it has to do with the spring force that regulates when the bypass occurs. Any time the pressure difference between the intake and exit sides of the filter reaches a certain value, the oil bypasses to protect the engine. The problem is that the pressure difference will be higher with a lower micron filter media, and the H-D filter bypass setting is too low to keep the filter from bypassing even when the filter isn't really clogged up. The article I read actually tested the filter bypass pressure settings, and the H-D was significantly lower and thus it bypassed much more often.

Jerry

110tHunDer · « **Reply #11 on:** June 07, 2006, 12:08:06 PM »

Jerry, that makes sense, thanks for the explanation. If that's the case, that's scary! [smiley=nervous.gif] Might have to switch to the K&N next time.

SEULTRA · « **Reply #12 on:** June 07, 2006, 12:08:40 PM »

Knowing that Jerry doesn't just make this stuff up, it makes me think twice about my oil filter choice at next service. Thanks for the input! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #13 on:** June 07, 2006, 12:21:21 PM »

Jerry...that's some good information to know, and makes really good sense. That's what's so great about this site...learn something new EVERY day!! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

arcticdude · « **Reply #14 on:** June 07, 2006, 01:14:13 PM »

Jerry,
If you find the article, it would be interesting to know WHAT pressure the HD filter bypasses vs the KN. If it's bypassing at 60psi, while the KN is at 80psi it really won't make much difference as our motors never build that kind of pressure anyway. Think of all the leaks we'd have if they did!

Fired00d · « **Reply #15 on:** June 07, 2006, 01:52:45 PM »

Quote

Jerry,
If you find the article, it would be interesting to know WHAT pressure the HD filter bypasses vs the KN. If it's bypassing at 60psi, while the KN is at 80psi it really won't make much difference as our motors never build that kind of pressure anyway. Think of all the leaks we'd have if they did!

Good question. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] This information may be valuable to those of us that have upgraded to the Feuling Oil Pump as it produces significantly more pressure then the stock pumps.

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #16 on:** June 07, 2006, 09:40:19 PM »

Quote

Good question. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] This information may be valuable to those of us that have upgraded to the Feuling Oil Pump as it produces significantly more pressure then the stock pumps.

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

When bone cold your bike with the bypass shim and the fueling pump will pump about 60 psi. It is very important to LET YOUR BIKE IDLE WHEN COLD. After warm up your bike should not exceed 40 pis at WOT!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Fired00d · « **Reply #17 on:** June 07, 2006, 09:58:25 PM »

Dawg,
Thanks for the info. Just another reason that I like having my bike warm up (from cold starts) until the heads are warm to the touch. Coming from a carb'd Evo and having to use the "enrichner" to get the bike started I had gotten used to letting it warm up before riding away. Granted it's not necessary to wait as long as I did w/carb (now that I have fuel injection), but it is important to let the motor warm up some before riding. I've heard horror stories of owners that think just because they have fuel injection and the bike will idle and compensate (run) when cold they can go "WOT" right away. Unfortunately for them their motors don't last long before they (bikes) are on the lift for some serious motor work.

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #18 on:** June 08, 2006, 06:06:20 AM »

The motor actually needs to warm up so all the metal will expand and seal the gaskets tight. That is why you see so many with base and rocker box gaskets (EVO) blown. It does happen with the two cammers also just not as much.

As far as Harleys oil filter bypass goes the stock oil pump on a good day will see no more than30 to 38 PSI cold. So I would think that is why Harley engineers have the bypass set so low. It is also cost effective so go figure. At least they changed the filter media to filter the oil better. But that still does not fix the problem of the bypass opening so early. I use Harley filters and Amsoil filters but I think I will try the K&N.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #19 on:** June 08, 2006, 11:03:17 AM »

DC...I've searched the web and can't find anything on the HD filter bypass valve PSI setting...did read some interesting stuff along the way though. Apparently, there are a lot of cheap a$$ed filters out there...let's just hope HD filter is not made by Fram, I'll put it that way. Some of these pieces of crap have cardboard on the ends of the filter medium, widely varying surface areas to capture stuff, etc. I dont think cardboard would be a good thing so have flowing around in the motor of anything. They're saying that most of the "quicky" oil change places use a filter that is basically not worth a chit. I don't think Purolater makes a filter for bikes, but from what I read, they are consistantly rated high on the list for automotive applications. So was Mobil filters, and K&N got decent reviews as well. From what I've read, the backflow preventer keeps the oil from flowing back through the filter (duh!), but more importantly, it keeps the particles captured in the filter from dislodging DUE to the backflow and recontaminating the oil with the captured particles. One other place mentioned that 30 microns was about the size of the typical thickness of the oil film everything rides on in the engine, so if something that big gets between two parts, it's a bad thing. I'm not educated (yet) on the tolerances of our engines in thousanths and how 30 micron particles relate to those clearances. I'm sure you know about that stuff.

I know my e-mail buddy, George, who has been so helpful with the info on synthetic oils, is working on a filter for bikes (it will be a Mobil brand)...he really is very knowledgable and has a bad case of A/R OCD, so if he designs it, it'll be right. Meanwhile, I think I'm going to go with the K&N.

Steve_G · « **Reply #20 on:** June 08, 2006, 01:44:05 PM »

I use only K&N filters on my bikes and I love them. Especially the nut on the end of the filter that allows it to be removed so easily. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]-Steve

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #21 on:** June 22, 2006, 09:43:28 PM »

Here's the response I got from K&N, in reverse order. If this is true, and HD claims to filter down to 5 microns, it's BYPASSING a LOT. I think I'll go with the K&N Chrome filter, especially since it has the convenient nut on the end for removal, and it has the backflow preventer.

Terry,

An oil particle is roughly 8 microns in size; our oil filters filter from 10 to 20 microns. I hope this information is useful and if you have any further questions please contact our Customer Support Team at (800) 858-3333. Thank you for your interest in K&N products and have a great day.

Sincerely,

Jordan Priestley

K&N Engineering, Inc.

Technical Support

Toll Free (800) 858-3333

Fax # (951) 826-4001

jordanp@knfilters.com

The statement above is intended solely for the person(s) to whom it is addressed and is not to be publicized, republished, copied or repeated unless done so in its entirety. If you are not a named recipient, you are also on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. You must not disclose it to any other person, copy or distribute it or use it for any purpose.

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Crain [mailto:tcrain2724@charter.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 5:27 AM
To: Epic Tech
Subject: KN 171 filter

Question: Does this filter capture down to 5 microns….10…or what? If I’m going to pay the same or more than the HD filter, I want to know if it’s going to do a better job, or just the same. The convenience factor plays a part in this as well.

Thanks for your help!!

Terry Crain

110tHunDer · « **Reply #22 on:** June 22, 2006, 11:19:06 PM »

Terry, thanks for posting your e-mail and response. Interesting chit. It seems like there has to be more to the story though, doesn't it? Why would H-D have spec'd a 5 micron filter if oil is 8 microns? Seems like it would bypass all the time then, wouldn't it?

Does H-D have somewhere to e-mail a question like that? [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #23 on:** June 22, 2006, 11:55:27 PM »

Don't know of a place you can e-mail HD tech advice like that...wonder who makes their filters? If we knew that, we might could ask some questions. Makes me seriously doubt whether HD filter actually is rated to 5 microns. If it is, it may only be PART of the filter medium and not all of it. Most of the sites I've visited on this subject claim that there filters capture from 10 to 30 microns, that's why I asked the question of K&N, plus I was concerned about the HD filter bypassing. Does anyone know if the HD filter has the backflow preventer like the K&N? Just from a "making sense" point of view, it seems that would be a good thing to have on an oil filter, particulary if the oil goes there first. If the oil can backflow through the filter, it would dislodge stuff it's already caught, then try to catch it again.

[smiley=nixweiss.gif]

At any rate, I got my CHROME K&N's delivered by UPS today, so will be trying one out this weekend when I drain the Syn3 out they put in last weekend. If I notice anything different, I'll be sure and post (pressures, etc).

SEULTRA · « **Reply #24 on:** June 23, 2006, 11:18:55 AM »

Quote

Terry, thanks for posting your e-mail and response. Interesting chit. It seems like there has to be more to the story though, doesn't it? Why would H-D have spec'd a 5 micron filter if oil is 8 microns? Seems like it would bypass all the time then, wouldn't it?

[highlight]Does H-D have somewhere to e-mail a question like that?[/highlight] [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Yeah, right.... send them a snail mail and they'll send you a snail mail back telling you to go visit your dealer because they have all the latest and greatest information [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

Fired00d · « **Reply #25 on:** June 23, 2006, 02:00:37 PM »

Quote

Yeah, right.... send them a snail mail and they'll send you a snail mail back telling you to go visit your dealer because they have all the latest and greatest information [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

Shouldn't that post belong in the Humor thread. You are joking right....... "go visit your dealer because they have all the latest and greatest information." [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #26 on:** June 23, 2006, 02:21:27 PM »

OK...e-mailed my friend in the oil business about the filter thing and this is his reply:

Frankly, there is no way the HD filters to 5 microns.. It is a paper
element which for all intent and purposes is limited to 30 microns, at
best...

K&N is somewhat better, but not by much.

Each filter may well capture the stray 10 micron or even 5 micron
particle but easily 90% of sub 10 micron particles are passing through
both filters..
Additionally, in engine oil filtration we cannot filter below about 6
microns as we begin stripping additive........

SEULTRA · « **Reply #27 on:** June 23, 2006, 03:59:52 PM »

Quote

Shouldn't that post belong in the Humor thread. You are joking right....... "go visit your dealer because they have all the latest and greatest information." [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

Yeah, Fired00d - just a little sarcasm

porthole · « **Reply #28 on:** June 24, 2006, 10:26:46 AM »

Quote

The big difference in the Twin Cam oil flow from previous H-D's is that the oil now goes to the filter first,

/quote]

If I remember correctly, my 74 XLCH didn't have an oil filter. I seem to recall putting an aftermarket kit on the bike

grc · « **Reply #29 on:** July 27, 2006, 04:26:41 PM »

Quote

Jerry,
If you find the article, it would be interesting to know WHAT pressure the HD filter bypasses vs the KN. If it's bypassing at 60psi, while the KN is at 80psi it really won't make much difference as our motors never build that kind of pressure anyway. Think of all the leaks we'd have if they did!

After exhaustive head scratching, I remembered where I read the filter test. American Iron Magazine ran a series of articles by Donny Petersen about oil, and then about filters. If anyone cares to read thru some of Donny's articles, they are available on his web site: http://www.heavydutycycles.com/techsect.htm The filter bypass info is in the 3rd article on oil filtration listed on the referenced link.

The information on the filter bypass is copied here. Also note in the table the difference in the surface area of the filter media between the K&N and the H-D filters.
---------------------
Filter Part # Bypass valve Filter area
K&N    KN-171C       14psi    164sq.in.(73"x2.25")
Fram PH6022 12psi. 101sq.in.(45"x2.25")
Amsoil    SMF134C 12psi. 106sq.in.(47"x2.25")
A/C Delco PF53   10psi.       96sq.in.(55"x1.75")
H-D 63731-99    10psi.    63sq.in.(36”x1.75”)
---------------------
BTW - the "bypass pressure" is a pressure differential, not actual oil pressure as measured on your gauge.

Jerry

Fired00d · « **Reply #30 on:** July 27, 2006, 05:21:48 PM »

Sure am glad I went w/the K&N yesterday when I had the bike serviced. [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #31 on:** July 27, 2006, 06:03:18 PM »

Quote

After exhaustive head scratching, I remembered where I read the filter test. American Iron Magazine ran a series of articles by Donny Petersen about oil, and then about filters. If anyone cares to read thru some of Donny's articles, they are available on his web site: http://www.heavydutycycles.com/techsect.htm The filter bypass info is in the 3rd article on oil filtration listed on the referenced link.

The information on the filter bypass is copied here. Also note in the table the difference in the surface area of the filter media between the K&N and the H-D filters.
---------------------
Filter Part # Bypass valve Filter area
K&N    KN-171C    [highlight]14psi[/highlight]    [highlight]164sq.in.(73"x2.25") [/highlight]
Fram PH6022 12psi. 101sq.in.(45"x2.25")
Amsoil    SMF134C 12psi. 106sq.in.(47"x2.25")
A/C Delco PF53   10psi.       96sq.in.(55"x1.75")
H-D 63731-99    [highlight]10psi. [/highlight] [highlight]63sq.in.(36”x1.75”)[/highlight]
---------------------
BTW - the "bypass pressure" is a pressure differential, not actual oil pressure as measured on your gauge.

Jerry

Thanks for the info, Jerry....geez,the K&N has nearly 3 times the surface area...that is a significant differerence!! Glad I switched!!

HWYMAN1 · « **Reply #32 on:** July 27, 2006, 06:13:00 PM »

As usual I am truly amazed at the amount of knowledge and dedication to finding information on this website ( it is why always love to read stuff here!). Harley probably view this website like many people view Ralph Nader. But back to the filter issue, I guess we need to be careful if we put a K&N filter on, because if stock HD filter filters at 5 microns ( though we know it doesn't), and oil is 8 microns, if we suffer an engine failure, the MOCO will blame it on the K&N filter for actually filtering the oil for the engine!!!!!! Oops, I guess I got carried away, so I will step off soap box, but thanks to all the research gathers it never leaves any stone unturned or have dull moments. John

RATKING · « **Reply #33 on:** July 28, 2006, 09:24:46 AM »

Hi Jerry,

The tech articles on the Heavy Duty Cycles webpage
( http://www.heavydutycycles.com/techsect.htm ) make for some excellent reading. I remember some of these articles appearing in American Iron Magazine, but having them all in one place makes it easy to reference. In looking at the article on filters, I was surprised on the multi-pass theory being used, contibuting to unfiltered oil circulating many times before all the oil is filtered and contaminants are removed. I replace the by-pass plate in all my rat-motor rebuilds
(Chevy Big Blocks), and just drive them easy until the oil is warm. I can also read when the filter needs replacement because of the drop in oil pressure. Harley made a big deal about the Twin Cam oiling system being changed/improved by filtering the oil before it goes to through the engine. That is great, as long as the by-pass is not open allowing the oil to bypass the filter altogether. I was not aware of the K&N's higher bypass valve setting. I have been using them just becasue the nut on the end makes them significantly easier to remove. But with the higher by-pass valve setting, and the much larger filter media, it is clearly the filter of choice for our Harleys.

electraglideclyde · « **Reply #34 on:** July 28, 2006, 05:51:35 PM »

Thanks for all the great info. I remember reading the article in American Iron. I'm due for an oil change this weekend and it will be a K&N filter with Mobil 1 . [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

AUSSIE_FLSTFSE · « **Reply #35 on:** July 28, 2006, 06:36:21 PM »

I hope this isn't a stupid question, but all this pressure & bypass pressure talk is starting to confuse me. So when using a feuling pump & the oil pressure never getting below 30psi & average about 60psi is any oil getting filtered or is it all bypassed? Or am I just reading this wrong?

Cheers
Aussie

grc · « **Reply #36 on:** July 28, 2006, 07:53:04 PM »

Quote

I hope this isn't a stupid question, but all this pressure & bypass pressure talk is starting to confuse me. So when using a feuling pump & the oil pressure never getting below 30psi & average about 60psi is any oil getting filtered or is it all bypassed? Or am I just reading this wrong?

Cheers
Aussie

Aussie,

It is confusing because of the terminology used, but what it really refers to is the pressure differential due to the resistance created by the oil flowing through the filter media. It doesn't matter if your oil pump puts out 30 psi or 60 psi, because you are only looking at the difference in pressure at the inlet and outlet sides of the filter. Think of it as a pressure drop valve. This is a safety feature that will route oil to the engine (dirty oil is better than no oil) in cases where the filter gets dirty, or you have a heavy weight oil and a cold engine, etc. (another good reason to avoid straight 50 wt oil in cool weather). One of the reasons I switched to K&N filters was the bypass setting, but just as important is the amount of surface area. With almost three times the surface area, combined with the bypass setting, even with a higher micron rating than the H-D filter the K&N over time will filter better and longer.

I'm a lot better at doing than I am at explaining - I hope this helps.

Jerry

HWYMAN1 · « **Reply #37 on:** July 28, 2006, 08:44:41 PM »

GRC,
Actually it is a pretty good explaination. Makes sense that primary function is to maintain getting oil to the engine ( whether through filter or not!) And I have no mechanical inclination. thanks, john

AUSSIE_FLSTFSE · « **Reply #38 on:** July 28, 2006, 08:50:03 PM »

Jerry,
Thanks that helped alot & my next filter will be a K & N & Mobil 1 V Twin oil. I will unload my last 4 quarts of Syn3 & genuine HD filter to someone I don't like!

Cheers
Aussie

AUSSIE_FLSTFSE · « **Reply #39 on:** July 28, 2006, 08:51:06 PM »

Quote

Sure am glad I went w/the K&N yesterday when I had the bike serviced. [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

But d00d, what oil did you use?

Cheers
Aussie

Fired00d · « **Reply #40 on:** July 28, 2006, 09:14:34 PM »

Quote

But d00d, what oil did you use?

Cheers
Aussie

Went with Amsoil in Motor, and Redline in Tranny/Primary.

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

grc · « **Reply #41 on:** July 28, 2006, 09:52:27 PM »

Quote

........
............................ [highlight]I will unload my last 4 quarts of Syn3 & genuine HD filter to someone I don't like![/highlight]

Cheers
Aussie

[smiley=thumbsup.gif]

I guess if no one wants it, you could always use it in the primary or use it to flush the engine prior to winter storage. I've still got a quart on the shelf too, figured I'd keep it as a memento, along with the other "take offs" from the bike.

Jerry

Author Topic: Oil Filter (Read 4377 times)