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[cahdbiker]

I was wondering if anyone has replaced their outer primary cover with an older version that has the access hole to adjust the primary chain manually, and if so can a manual primary chain adjuster be installed without any modifications to the existing inner primary.( I don't remember what year they switched to a auto tensioner) My bike is  an 2009. The reason for this question is that I have been wondering if the following is true: Lets say I drive across highway 50 in Nevada and it is 100 degrees out and I am doing 80MPH, which I have done, so my primary chain is going to expand a little and then the auto adjuster is suppose tighten up to make up for the expansion . So I guess the second part of my  question is, when everything cools down does the auto tensioner readjust or does it just ratchet up and stay there causing you to end up with a primary chain that is too tight which could put stress on your primary components? Here is something else to ponder, has anyone modified their primary cover in any way by drilling a hole in the top section, tapping it, and installing a chrome bolt with an  "O" ring so they could change their primary fluid without pulling the large round clutch cover which has the 5 small bolts around it? It might not look as nice, but it would sure make changing primary fluid a  lot  easier. ( I realize with the older style cover you could add fluid thru the primary chain adjustment access hole) Thanks in advance for your replies. CAHDBIKER

[Ghost__Rider]

cases are different shape..........just ride it.

[grc]

Actually, the chain gets tighter as the engine and trans get hotter.

As for installing an older model outer cover and tensioner, that won't work due to changes in the inner and outer castings.  You could buy the Baker manual tensioner that mounts just like the current auto tensioner, but you would need to remove the outer primary cover whenever you wanted to make an adjustment.  Since adjustments aren't necessary very often once the chain and sprockets and tensioner shoe have been broken in, that wouldn't be a big deal for most people.  These days it's probably not a bad idea to pull the outer cover on a regular basis anyway, to check the other stuff in there that's prone to early failure like the compensator.
http://bakerdrivetrain.com/attitude-chain-adjuster

It is best to fill the primary through the derby cover opening, even though it means removing and installing five screws.  The best way to verify the correct fill level is by checking the fluid level at the clutch (just barely touching the bottom of the clutch with the bike level).  If you just had a fill hole at the top of the cover you wouldn't be able to verify the level, and that fluid level is important.

Jerry

btw, Baker offers an overpriced outer cover for the late models that does have the old style access cover if one is interested.  I'd rather just pull the cover every 10k miles to do an inspection and chain adjustment.

[Midnight Rider]

You could also install the Hayden tensioner if you're uncomfortable with the ratchet type.  It's spring operated.

They used to be a vendor here, but I'm not sure now.

[cahdbiker]

Thanks for the input guys. I did not know the primary cases were different. The biggest reason for my post is that I get a little clacking noise when first riding and then it goes away after the bike gets up to operating temp.  It is nice to know a person can throw just about anything out there and somebody on this site will know about it. I have only about 22k on my 09 and I think at 25K I will have the cams and lifters checked out. I appreciate the input. CAHDBIKER

[SDCVO]

Thanks for the input guys. I did not know the primary cases were different. The biggest reason for my post is that I get a little clacking noise when first riding and then it goes away after the bike gets up to operating temp.

I have the same issue at start up and replaced the compensator (under warranty), new chain and Hayden tensioner. Still have it. Only happens at cold start up when the revs are very low for a few seconds. It was happening at idle all the time until I did the work (about 4000 miles ago) and the dealer wants to increase my idle speed but I don't think it will matter as it is only for a few seconds until the idle speeds and smooths out. Drives me crazy..

[grc]

I have the same issue at start up and replaced the compensator (under warranty), new chain and Hayden tensioner. Still have it. Only happens at cold start up when the revs are very low for a few seconds. It was happening at idle all the time until I did the work (about 4000 miles ago) and the dealer wants to increase my idle speed but I don't think it will matter as it is only for a few seconds until the idle speeds and smooths out. Drives me crazy..

If things were working the way they should be, the idle should automatically increase on a cold start and gradually taper off as the engine warms up.  It shouldn't be idling roughly at low rpm after a cold start, so maybe you should have a qualified tech check it out.

Jerry

[grc]

Oh, btw, I forgot to mention earlier that you can also give Harley more of your money to fix the chain tensioner problem.  Just as they did with the original POS compensators, they have added a SE version to the catalog so that customers can pay to fix the problem themselves.  They even used the same tired verbiage about racing use, to try to deflect the blame for the poor stock design.  They have you guys over the barrel on the compensator deal since no one else makes one, but in this case I think I'd prefer to spend a few more bucks on the Baker version and not reward H-D by buying their offering.  They already make way too much money selling customers "fixes" for poorly designed original equipment parts.

Jerry

[cahdbiker]

Hi grc, I respect your absolute knowledge, but I am confused by your statement that the chain gets tighter as the engine and trans get hotter. I would think that the chain would expand as it get hotter and therefore get looser. Can you elaborate? Thanks in advance CAHDBIKER

Actually, the chain gets tighter as the engine and trans get hotter.

As for installing an older model outer cover and tensioner, that won't work due to changes in the inner and outer castings.  You could buy the Baker manual tensioner that mounts just like the current auto tensioner, but you would need to remove the outer primary cover whenever you wanted to make an adjustment.  Since adjustments aren't necessary very often once the chain and sprockets and tensioner shoe have been broken in, that wouldn't be a big deal for most people.  These days it's probably not a bad idea to pull the outer cover on a regular basis anyway, to check the other stuff in there that's prone to early failure like the compensator.
http://bakerdrivetrain.com/attitude-chain-adjuster

It is best to fill the primary through the derby cover opening, even though it means removing and installing five screws.  The best way to verify the correct fill level is by checking the fluid level at the clutch (just barely touching the bottom of the clutch with the bike level).  If you just had a fill hole at the top of the cover you wouldn't be able to verify the level, and that fluid level is important.

Jerry

btw, Baker offers an overpriced outer cover for the late models that does have the old style access cover if one is interested.  I'd rather just pull the cover every 10k miles to do an inspection and chain adjustment.

[SDCVO]

If things were working the way they should be, the idle should automatically increase on a cold start and gradually taper off as the engine warms up.  It shouldn't be idling roughly at low rpm after a cold start, so maybe you should have a qualified tech check it out.

Jerry

It only happens for literally 2 or 3 seconds and then does increase and then tapers off (but not so much that it starts clattering).
The reason I have not let them increase the idle is that I took my bike up to Bob Lobenberg in NoCal to have it tuned and besides the clatter it runs absolutely amazing and I am afraid to let them touch the SERT to speed up the idle at start fearing they will mess up the tune. They swear that they can alter the idle at start up without touching the tune but it still freaks me out. It was very difficult for me to get the bike up there for the tune and though the "clatter" drives me crazy when I start it when its cold, I get get my head around the risk/reward of doing the idle deal. They (dealer) said the clatter was the chain hitting itself at such a low "lope" which it does sound like to me and it goes away so fast it doesn't seem to be hurting anything?
What do you think?

[grc]

You might just need a tad more fuel at startup, since the idle speed seems to come up within a couple seconds after starting.  I'd suggest calling Bob L. and ask him for his suggestion before just turning the local dealer loose on it however.

Someone who is fully capable should be able to go into the warm-up tables and tweak the cold idle speed and mixture without screwing up the rest of the calibration (tune) if it turns out that is what's needed.  How confident are you in the capabilities of the local dealer tech? 

Jerry

[grc]

Hi grc, I respect your absolute knowledge, but I am confused by your statement that the chain gets tighter as the engine and trans get hotter. I would think that the chain would expand as it get hotter and therefore get looser. Can you elaborate? Thanks in advance CAHDBIKER

All the other parts involved expand with heat as well (including those aluminum cases and trans housing), and when you add everything up the net affect is the chain becomes tighter.  Back when we had to adjust chains manually, there were two specs given, one cold and one hot.  The hot spec was 1/4" tighter than the cold spec, due to this net expansion. 

Jerry

[moscooter]

 

"All the other parts involved expand with heat as well (including those aluminum cases and trans housing), and when you add everything up the net affect is the chain becomes tighter."

  Just the (opposite effect) of a rubber belt.  The hotter and faster, it "grows" in length.  The old trick with Corvair motors was to eliminate the "idler pulley" bolt (being tight),  and adding a spring to the idler.........then you could visually see the spring pull the idler pulley further back as you reved up the motor.

[SDCVO]

You might just need a tad more fuel at startup, since the idle speed seems to come up within a couple seconds after starting.  I'd suggest calling Bob L. and ask him for his suggestion before just turning the local dealer loose on it however.

Someone who is fully capable should be able to go into the warm-up tables and tweak the cold idle speed and mixture without screwing up the rest of the calibration (tune) if it turns out that is what's needed.  How confident are you in the capabilities of the local dealer tech? 

Jerry

I don't think he is a top notch tuner as its illegal in CA for dealers to do tunes but he is their foreman and used to do the tunes on a SERT for the dealership before CA shut them down. he is a very humble guy and he has promised me that he can do what you suggest without touching the tune. I will call Bob and see what he thinks. Thanks

[twinotter]

  On a cold start, the engine should idle at 1200-1250rpm at start, then slowly over a few seconds go down to the established warm idle point. On cold days this could takes 5 minutes, on warm summer days I'd guess 30 sec. Twin Cam hate anything below about 900rpm and will thrash themselves to death if left that way. It will also be very hard on the compensator, which is likely the "noise" your hearing.
  Any reasonably adept "tuner" should be quite capable of adjusting the cold idle to proper settings. It would have no bearing on warm idle or the overall tune.  fwiw twinotter