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CVO Technical => Milwaukee-Eight => Topic started by: Heatwave on December 12, 2019, 03:10:45 PM
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I decided to go back to the future and buy another 2017 CVO Limited with 300 miles on it
My plan was to build this bike the way I wished some bike manufacturer would have built a 2020 bike.
- I wanted chrome, not black-out or satin paint.
- I wanted a unique paint set with unique wheels.
- I wanted a hardwired headset (no desire to screw around on the side of the road with BT pairing)
- I wanted comfort/convenience features such as garage door opener, heated grips, heated seats, XM Radio, storage and luggage for distance riding
- AND I wanted the power of the BMW Grand America that I have test ridden
It was a "TALL" ask. I had a very positive past experience 3 years ago with a particular vendor. Yes, Fuelmoto and Jamie. I shared with him what I was looking for in my new M8. I wasn't looking for a "numbers" bike or "HP" bike. I wanted low end torque and a throttle that never ran out of steam.
I also shared that I was looking to have my other bike (2010 CVO Ultra 110) tuned. It ran well from auto-tuning but I felt if I was going to trailer 1 bike, I might as well trailer the other one to him for tuning.
So we put a deal together taking advantage of their recent Black Friday pricing and I trailered both bikes to Appleton Wisconsin from New Jersey. What the hell ... I'm retired and it's cold outside so a short 3 day adventure sounded like a great idea. I trailered 1000 miles (100 gals of fuel and 17hrs) in one day this past Sunday and was home for dinner on Wed. It's worth noting FM has a completely new shop that opened in April this year which is far larger than their previous shop I had visited. The new shop is well organized, clean, professional and quite large. Just like you'd expect of a top-notch motorcycle engine builder.
FM has a discount room rate with a nearby hotel. All the work shared in this post was essentially done in a single day. It's pretty remarkable and I dare say there are few if any builders that could beat or even match that fast of a turnaround for 2 bikes. The bikes were dropped off at 9am on Monday morning. I checked in by lunch and the M8 engine was torn down. Both the TC and the M8 had already been run on the dyno for their baseline results. By Monday late afternoon, the M8 had been rebuilt with the parts we agreed on. Monday evening both bikes were dyno-tuned.
Tuesday morning the bikes were cold started and checked. Then reassembled with saddlebags etc. The bikes were detailed and ready to go. All take-off parts were boxed up and on a rolling cart to load in my vehicle. The bikes were ready for loading by about 10:45 am on Tuesday morning. I was rolling home from Wisconsin by around Noon on Tuesday. And then another 1000 miles trailering back to New Jersey.
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Our agreed deal included the following "installs" on the bike which FM performed at no charge:
- The tune on my 2nd bike was done at no charge ($450 value)
- FM installed an HD Coolflow fan (I supplied) including the switches and wiring at N/C. (I'll need to have the Coolfan activated at my local dealer with DigitalTech)
- FM installed a power plug for heated gear (I supplied) at no charge
- FM installed a 2020 HD 8-lobe oil pump (I supplied) at N/C. I bought this 2020 oil pump kit through Surdyke for about $110. I have enough confidence at this point that the 2020 oil pump will address any sumping risks but worth noting that FM has not experienced any M8 builds they installed that have experienced sumping.
- FM installed my PV canbus cabling (I supplied) to be mounted on the left side of my handlebars at N/C
- Pricing was excellent, particularly good with the significant Black Friday discounts they offered. I found the total bill to be extremely fair for the work they did particularly given the time they did it in. Please contact FM for more specifics on pricing if you have a build you might be interested in.
A few discoveries along the way:
- The factory throttlebody was broken at one of the AC mounting holes. Apparently this is not uncommon straight from the factory.
- The factory cylinders were already showing significant signs of being out-of-round and poor ring sealing with less than 1000 miles on the engine (see pics below)
- The crank run-out was slightly under .003
- The torque was abit light on the piston oil jets. Not bad but needed additional tightening.
- The valve seats were inspected and were evaluated as properly sealed and seated[/li][/list]
My M8 128 Build:
- I wanted my 128 build for both solo riding and long distance 2-up riding.
- I wanted lots of low end torque "early" (2500 rpms) and I wanted a throttle that didn't run out of steam at 4000rpms
- I liked my Woods 408 cam in my TC after 70,000 miles so I figured I'd stick with what I know
- Installed FM's new 128 Black Granite cylinders to match my CVO block
- Installed CP/FM Carillo 128 flat top pistons for an 11.0:1 compression ratio
- Installed Wood WM8-408 cam
- Installed Wood M8 Alpha Lifters
- Installed Wood Performance hi-lift valve springs
- Installed Wood M8 Valve spring retainers
- Installed FM adjustable pushrods
- Installed Koyo inner cam bearing
- Installed New plugs
- Installed S&S tappet cuffs
- Installed S&S headbolts
- Installed SE 64mm throttlebody
- Installed SE 5.5gms/sec injectors
- Installed FM Custom Hi-Flow Air cleaner for Ventilator
- Installed AIM SDR clutch
- Installed Chrome Hi-roller mufflers with black slash end caps
- Installed Power Vision (I supplied) from my other bike (additional license)
- Installed Jackpot 2/1/2 headpipe (I supplied) from previous bike
- Installed custom CVO 128 derby cover (I supplied)
- Complete oil service
- NOTE: I stayed with the factory M8 heads (with upgraded Wood valve springs) combined with the 2/1/2 FM headpipe instead of using the XXX headpipe. Since I was more interested in low torque than I was in maximum hp at 6000rpms, IMO this was a better combination for me. In my view, it's a waste to do headwork on the M8 heads UNLESS you're chasing BIG HP numbers and are going to be using a much larger exhaust headpipe. As you can see below, this "table-top" torque 128 recipe delivered!!
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The Results:
-The tune on my 2010 was nicely cleaned up. But worth noting my PV auto-tuning ran great to start with. I gained 3hp and 4ftlbs as you can see below
-The 128 upgrade results were remarkable as you'll also see below. This engine gained 53hp (63% increase) and 41ftlbs (37% increase) over the factory engine. This 128 Build definitely exceeds the HP and Torque of the BMW Grand America. Most importantly, it delivers far more torque at 2500rpms than even "torque" cams like the 22x, without giving up hp at higher rpms.
-For those claiming FM's dyno is "happy", the facts just don't support that claim. Jamie had no idea in advance, but my TC had been dynoed twice before. FM's dyno results were the SAME for torque and 2 hp LOWER than the previous dynos performed on this bike. The facts suggest FM's dyno results are consistent with any other dyno run by an experienced operator.[/li][/list]
After the fact:
- FM has a large custom wall map in their office that customers get to place a marker showing where they traveled from to have their bike worked on at FM. The new shop opened in April of this year and there are already markers from all over including California, down to Tx, FL, MS and all over the Northeast. Of course tons of markers in the Great Lakes region. And now the first marker from New Jersey! All in just the last 8 months.
- I have yet to ride either bike since tuning because there was snow in Appleton Wisconsin and snow at home when I returned. I'll be sharing the seat of the pants experience when the roads allow me.
- This is not a commercial for FM. They didn't ask me to post anything and my pricing has absolutely nothing to do with me sharing my experience online. And personally I prefer it that way. I'm sure there are many other great bike shops across America. But for service, professionalism, price and turn-around time (1 DAY), it will be REALLY hard to beat the experience I had working with Jamie and the folks at Fuelmoto. My purpose in sharing my experience is nothing more than to post an independent but personal big "thumbs-up" to Fuelmoto for a job well done.
- Next step is upgrading my bike's radio to a 2020 GTS to enable CarPlay, a key feature I like on the new bikes. My new GTS radio was bought through Surdyke and is in transit and should be delivered next week. I'll have a separate thread on this GTS radio upgrade.
- The only way I believe you could get this performance engine build with an M8 for less $ would be to build it yourself. And for the experience and turn-around time that FM brings to the build, paying them to build the engine is money extremely well spent.
- In the end, I believe I have a better bike for my riding style and tastes than I could have bought new from anyone. And doing it my way, even after the engine and radio upgrades, I will have spent $12,000 LESS than buying a 2020 CVO Limited at MSRP. Hard to believe!!
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The cleaned up FM dyno tune on my 2010 CVO Ultra 110.
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New Derby cover for the bike
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Very nice write up. Sounds like you did your homework. Looks like your going to have a lot happy miles. Congrats.
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Very detailed and informative. Look forward to your review after your first ride.
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Sounds like your build is very well thought out. I enjoyed the read.
:worthless:
Fingers crossed for some weather for you.
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Here’s a couple pics of the bikes.
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After the upgrades
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Pic of the poor ring seal on the factory 114 cylinders after less than 1000 miles.
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That sounds like a beast! Do you have part number for derby cover? Did a 128 would like to find one in black!
Thank you.
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That sounds like a beast! Do you have part number for derby cover? Did a 128 would like to find one in black!
Thank you.
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I had the CVO 128 derby custom engraved by this company. https://custom-engraving-ltd.com/
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Thank you sounds awesome enjoy!!!
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Great review my friend,, Seems like you got a great build... My 19 CVO Rg is getting the 128 build as I type this, I did go with stage 2 ported heads and the SS 550 cam.. I will post my numbers and thoughts on my build when completed... I look forward to hearing your thoughts after you get to ride them both... I too live in the Northeast and probably won’t be riding till probably April.
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Wow. That thing sounds like a beast. Hang on! Great write up. Thanks for sharing in such detail.
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I recently upgraded by 2017 CVO Limited 114 to a Fuel Moto installed/tuned 128. Here's the thread for more details on the Build https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=120099.0
I started this thread to share my first impressions after getting some miles on the new engine. Today I had a nice 200 mile ride. It's abit cool today (45F) so take that into consideration when I share the Engine Temp's I observed.
Start up and Idle - A day ago I found the bike difficult to get started but I think my battery might have been low. After getting a really good charge on the battery, the bike starts quite easily. Idle was set higher than most M8s at 1000rpms. The high lift Wood WM8-408 cam requires it since the RPMs "roll" abit during idle. Bike never stalled once but worth noting the idle is slightly higher than a normal bike.
Sound - If you're looking for an engine build and exhaust to frighten young children and scare old folks, this ISN'T it. This bike is remarkably quiet for the power it produces. Slightly louder than a stock bike. Perhaps abit louder than a Stage kit M8 with Street Cannons. Louder at open throttle but not obnoxious at all. Absolutely silent valvetrain. From the horn side of the engine, the valvetrain is nearly impossible to hear. The Jackpot Hi-Rollers have a nice deep sound and open up nicely with the throttle but nothing that would standout as being "loud". Fortunately I have my TC 110 with Fatcat to terrify animals, small children and actually a few grown men with its exhaust!
Clutch - The AIM SDR will take a little getting used to. It's definitely a harder pull than stock but very similar to my old clutch with Harley's heaviest clutch springs - 1275s. And of course it's a tighter pull at upper rpms but nothing outrageous. I definitely wouldn't want this hard of a clutch pull for parade duty but I think for normal riding its fine. We'll see over time if I feel any fatigue and need the "Light Force" Slave cylinder, but I don't think it'll be needed. There is absolutely no slippage. When the clutch is dropped, there is instant power available.
Heat - It was only 45 degrees outside so keep that in mind but I was still surprised how cool the engine ran. ETs were mostly in the 230's, some 240s and a high of 252. With my old Stage 4 M8 117, that engine almost never ran below 270 and even in cold temps could be much higher. Obviously the EPA-compliant Street Tuner tunes keep these M8s running lean resulting in the much higher engine temps with those "compliant" tunes. Coolant temps were pretty rock solid around 135 degrees.
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Performance - Simply amazing. I'm not sure where to start because there was a smile from start to finish. The power with this much torque so low and hp that never seems to end makes riding a joy. Red line limiter is 6400rpms so bumping the rev limiter isn't very likely. Simply astonishing power whenever and wherever you need it. Shifting becomes a secondary thought because you can grab a handful of throttle from anywhere. If I wanted to rip it at 2500rpms, the bike jumped forward. On the highway, 6th gear, running 75-80 and want to pass NOW?? No problem, just rip the throttle. no need to downshift. The bike explodes forward and you're at triple digits in an instant. (Also worth knowing there is no speed limiter now. No clue what the top speed of this bike is now and I doubt I'll ever experience it!)
In the twisties, higher rpms are a blast. Downshift for a curve and at the apex, rip the throttle and the bike comes tearing out of the curve. No hiccups, blips, burbles or any hesitation whatsoever. The tune was absolutely perfect in every way you can measure a bike. And yet the bike has gentle manners at all speeds and rpms. Just want to poke along? No issue at all. In fact, if it weren't for the CVO 128 derby cover, it would be next to impossible for anyone looking at my bike to know the beast of an engine it has under the tank. Just the way I wanted it.
Fuel mileage - Yep, everything fun in life has a price to pay. In the case of this 128 and its power, the price is fuel economy. Granted I was having a "fun" day with this new throttle but the fuel economy was down around 29mpg measured on the PV. I figure normal riding might be around 32 over the long term and maybe 37 or so for long, cruise-control, highway miles. But anyone interested in this motor should know you will likely be the "shortest" tank in the group you ride with.
Small bit of advice - Please don't take offense if you took a different path with your own engine build, but I really don't "get" the whole small overlap so-called "torque" cams. Ok, I get it if you are trying to save money and are looking for a bolt-in cam, but for only about $500 more for hi-lift valve springs, you can have your cake and eat it too. This Wood 408 Cam delivers as good, if not better, low end torque (with the smaller headpipe and factory heads) then some of the best "Torque" cams PLUS you get all the HP that you would lose with the bolt-in torque cam.
If you're only installing a cam, then a "torque" cam makes good sense. But if you're going to the trouble to pull the heads, cylinders and pistons for a Big Bore upgrade, why leave so much performance on the table by installing a "Torque" cam? The only additional cost for most Big Bore upgrades would be the cost and install of hi-performance hi-lift valve springs to accomodate a higher lift performance cam. Most of the high lift cams require more compression but I'm not sure I see the downside going from 10.75:1 to 11:1 that's in my 128 build.
All in All - For the money, the fun factor in this build is terrific. The bike is very subtle...until its not! Your right hand decides if you just want the bike to be a neighborhood friendly touring bike OR a "let 'er rip" beast. The biggest downside is definitely going to be tires for 2 reasons. 1) rear tires will definitely wear out sooner 2) I won't want to run the tires down as far as I might have with less power.
In summary, this engine build is simply a blast to ride and definitely to be considered if you're contemplating a Big Bore M8 build.
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Not certain I completely get the subtlety of that review. I think he likes it though.... ;D
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Sounds very nice. Good write up on it. That is one of the cams I am considering. Was wondering if was noisy like the woods I have in my twin cam.
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Thanks for the ride report. Very nice. I’ll definitely consider this build when the time comes to open up my M8.
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Very informative. I am stockpiling parts for a similar build so was very happy to read your detailed report. Thanks for posting!
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Great thread, tons of details pics and Dyno numbers.
FM is great shop
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Which 128 kit are you going with? I’m debating between S&S and Fuel Moto and the S&S 550 cam. Are you going with the SE CNC heads?
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Also found a 128 replacement emblem for the Upgraded Ventilator Air Cleaner through Customer Engraving https://custom-engraving-ltd.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=category&virtuemart_category_id=361&Itemid=387
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On the bike
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Whole bike
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On the bike
Uh oh, no secret now :huepfenlol2: Anyway it sounds like you will have many miles of happy. :worthless: :drink:
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Had that derby cover made awesome job!
Thank you.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200116/e1203eff27882233fd0e444071ff6cd4.jpg)
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An update on my FM 128. Bike has been extremely reliable. Rode to Sturgis in Aug from NJ. 5500 miles RT in all kinds of weather. The bike never ran hot once even when the temps were 100 degrees. The highest ETs I ever saw on my PV was 195. In normal summer time weather the avg engine temps were around 165-170. I couldn't be happier with this build as I now have almost 10,000 miles.
I change the oil every 3000miles and I give credit to Jamie and his crew at Fuelmoto for a reliable and powerful build. I've ridden many miles 2up as well as solo and this build far exceeds even my highest expectations. I would enthusiastically recommend this build to anyone looking for either a hotrod or a reliable long distance touring machine with "guts".
Time to get new tires!
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Great follow up, thanks.
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Thanks for the follow up because many are looking for that to include myself. Many can make a build but to have it last, defines a quality build.
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Happy to hear this!!!😎