Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Jerry/MD]

Well I installed J&M Rokkers in the fairing and rear pods but it seems like something is lacking....... I'm thinking an upgrade of the amp will make a difference. Now, I don't wanna go through a ton of BS...so what are my best options?

Jerry

[Jerry/MD]

Hmmmmm, was this a hard question? 

C'mon Man! 

[TIF2]

Since you went with J&M speakers (2-ohm) your options are limited. I'll assume you don't want to give up storage/bag space. I'll also assume you want to maintain fade control from front to back and with that in mind you can:

1. Install an Arc/Wetsounds/Elf/J&M 125.4 amp

2. Install a JL Audio XD-400/4 amp

3. Install two (2) of the Hogtunes REV 70.2 amps

Since you have a Road Glide I would go with the JL Audio amp, but that is my personal preference. All of the above should work and provide more than enough punch. I've never done an install in a Road Glide so I can't comment on fitment issues but with the room you have all should go in with minimal difficulty.

I hope this isn't a "ton of BS" for you to go through ... and you wonder why nobody replied?

Really?

[Jerry/MD]

Since you went with J&M speakers (2-ohm) your options are limited. I'll assume you don't want to give up storage/bag space. I'll also assume you want to maintain fade control from front to back and with that in mind you can:

1. Install an Arc/Wetsounds/Elf/J&M 125.4 amp

2. Install a JL Audio XD-400/4 amp

3. Install two (2) of the Hogtunes REV 70.2 amps

Since you have a Road Glide I would go with the JL Audio amp, but that is my personal preference. All of the above should work and provide more than enough punch. I've never done an install in a Road Glide so I can't comment on fitment issues but with the room you have all should go in with minimal difficulty.

I hope this isn't a "ton of BS" for you to go through ... and you wonder why nobody replied?

Really?

Holy crap, sorry I asked.  I saw your thread where you documented your stereo upgrade...and I was very impressed. Nice job. Personally I don't want to go through that much rework. I was only looking for a simpler alternative. If there is none, then fine.

Jerry

[TIF2]

Hardest thing about forums ... no inflection 

Probably just me that took it that way. Obviously I took it differently than it was meant. Anyway -

All of the options above are not too much work - just a matter of running power/ground and hooking up the speaker leads. Another option would be to get two (2) of the JL Audio XD-200/2 and mount one on each side of the fairing.

PM me your number and we can discuss. As always ... the BEST option for an individual is the one that balances budget with system goals. Unfortunately, I haven't done an acutal install on a Road Glide fairing but looking at the space avail (via pics) all of the above should go in with minimal effort.

I'm jealous of the room you have ....

[Harleypingman]

One modest cost alternative is to add HD's Tour Pak Bass Port kit with the dealer download to reprogram the amp to provide more bass. 

When you are considering amps, none will work the same as your OEM amp.  Specifically, the fader is controlled from the amp, not the HK head unit.  None of the aftermarket amps work this way; the fader is provided from the head unit.  With the wiring on the newer CVO Ultras, switching to a 4-channel amp requires some relatively simple rewiring inside the fairing to access the rear speaker pin-outs of the HK head unit that aren't used on the '10 or so newer CVO Ultras--they simply use the front speaker outputs; route that to the amp; and, the amp splits the audio signal for front and rear speakers.  To use an aftermarket 4-channel amp, you'll want to access the rear speaker pin-outs so the fader will work.

The OEM amp provides 40W per channel, 4-channel.  By comparison, the J&M 500W amp provides 125W per channel using 2 ohm (Rokker) speakers.

I suggest you talk to guys who have done audio projects that may interest you, or have a lot of experience with audio mods--starting a thread is fine; but, typing a comprehensive reply takes a lot of time--a phone call is a much easier way to convey information and better understand what you're after; your budget; and, your willingness to modify what's on your bike.

Good luck with your search.

Carl

[Jerry/MD]

Thanks for the replies...both of ya.

I realize the 'devil is in the details' and it would be extensive to describe here. Sounds like I need to swap phone numbers.

Jerry

[Rio]

Thanks for the replies...both of ya.

I realize the 'devil is in the details' and it would be extensive to describe here. Sounds like I need to swap phone numbers.

Jerry

Hi Jerry,

I will follow this thread closely.  I love to veg and listen to music when I ride, this is a big deal for me.  Believe it or not, the 11 SERGU sound system is better on this bike than my 10 CUSE with Hawg Wired speakers.  I did the same as you with my last bike, replaced the speakers thinking that would make a difference and it didn't.  One reason is that the speakers and amp are matched for whatever HD thought was the best performance.  Putting a better speaker may require more power to drive them therefore you end up not getting what you expected as the benefit.  I was told or read that you have to remove the amp under the tour pack and mount a new amp whatever your choice next to the radio behind the fairing.  Then you had to rewire and or rig the rear speakers to get them to work using the radio and handlebar controls?  If theres a simpler way to make a dramatic difference, I'm all ears so I will be listening closely to this thread?

[captdave]

Hmmmmm, was this a hard question?  

C'mon Man!  

Not a hard question, nor a hard answer.  But the install may be more than you expect or a "ton of BS" from your perspective.  I just swapped out my entire stereo system for a new one on my SESG.  It wasn't difficult (for me), but it was a lot of work.  Just a few things to keep in mind:

You will have to run at least 8-gauge power wire from the battery to your amp under the fairing.  That will mean accessing the backbone wire channel to lay the wire which will mean removing the gas tank.  Then you'll have to run the same size wire from the amp to ground (I found a ground on the frame just behind the fork tube...just make it a short a run as possible; preferrably less than 3 ft).  You should not use the stock speaker wire runs either.  Use new wire from amp to speakers to ensure discreet channels are run to each speaker.   It's possible you may already have this with the J&M speakers if they gave you a wire harness to the speakers...I don't know.

If you have the room under the fairing, I'd recommend the JL Audio XD400/4 if you have a 4-channel system.  Or you could just get J&M's amp to match with your speakers and follow their instructions for the install on your bike.  You should be able to retain AVC and handelbar controls without any modification if you choose to keep the stock HK radio unit.

Hope this helps...

[Rio]

This would all be much simpler if HD or someone offered an amp unit that would swap out with the stock unit under the tour pack.  Seem's like it would be fairly simple stuff and you would think that someone would have come up with a harness that would play and plug in place of the current amp? 

[captdave]

This would all be much simpler if HD or someone offered an amp unit that would swap out with the stock unit under the tour pack.  Seem's like it would be fairly simple stuff and you would think that someone would have come up with a harness that would play and plug in place of the current amp? 

You'd think...but then again, this is the MoCo we're talking about, and I've learned they don't necessarily do things standard or as you might expect when it comes to wiring.  For example, on my SESG, I found that the lower speakers appear to be wired in parallel with the upper speaker (common +'s and grounds) on each side.  So in effect, you only still have a 2-channel system paying through 4 speakers.  I haven't seen the wiring diagram for the RG's front and rear speakers, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was the same setup.

Doesn't J&M offer their speaker/amp lit for the RG 4-speaker system?  If so, that might be the easiest way to go short of replacing the entire system including a new head unit.

[Rio]

You'd think...but then again, this is the MoCo we're talking about, and I've learned they don't necessarily do things standard or as you might expect when it comes to wiring.  For example, on my SESG, I found that the lower speakers appear to be wired in parallel with the upper speaker (common +'s and grounds) on each side.  So in effect, you only still have a 2-channel system paying through 4 speakers.  I haven't seen the wiring diagram for the RG's front and rear speakers, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was the same setup.

Doesn't J&M offer their speaker/amp lit for the RG 4-speaker system?  If so, that might be the easiest way to go short of replacing the entire system including a new head unit.

Where would you go to get that answer?  CVO's ultras are the only bikes with the amp mounte under the tourpack which is probably why no one has designed a plug and play replacement amp because of the limited quantity of sales?  I never owned a regular Ultra, but I would guess that the amp like all others are probably located next to or on top of the radio unit if in fact they even use an addtional amp outside the radio's internal system?

[captdave]

Where would you go to get that answer?  CVO's ultras are the only bikes with the amp mounte under the tourpack which is probably why no one has designed a plug and play replacement amp because of the limited quantity of sales?  I never owned a regular Ultra, but I would guess that the amp like all others are probably located next to or on top of the radio unit if in fact they even use an addtional amp outside the radio's internal system?

Maybe this is what you're looking for:  http://www.jmcorp.com/ProductDetail.asp?ProductID=JAMP-500HC06-RCR

[TIF2]

You will have to run at least 8-gauge power wire from the battery to your amp under the fairing.  

Why do you feel 8ga minimum power wire is required?
Just curious ...

[TIF2]

Maybe this is what you're looking for:  http://www.jmcorp.com/ProductDetail.asp?ProductID=JAMP-500HC06-RCR

That "kit" offers nothing over what an Arc Audio or JL Audio amp will provide. You still need to remove the stock amp under the tour-pak from the system.

The problem with the stock CVO Ultra amp is that it is integrated to the other functions of the bike. PTT, CB, fade control, rear pod volume .... all run to the stock amp. An aftermarket company would have to have intricate knowledge of the HK head unit and other functions in order to build a "plug and play" replacement amp.

I doubt H-D would ever share that info.

My .02 anyway

[captdave]

Why do you feel 8ga minimum power wire is required?
Just curious ...

TIF2,

Actually, I should have indicated 10-ga as the minimum.  I chose 8-ga based upon (I believe) JL's installation recommendations in their manual, and the info here:  http://www.crutchfield.com/Learn/learningcenter/car/cable_gauge_chart.html

From that chart and the length of cable run I used, I could have gotten away with 10-ga, but I figured the bigger, the better and thought I might pick up a little extra performance in the process.

I forgot about PTT, CB, etc (since I don't have those on my SESG), and didn't know those things all went thru the stock amp.  Makes sense, and makes it much more difficult for one to retain those other functions while changing anything about the stereo system.      Glad I didn't have to deal with that. 

[Harleypingman]

J&M offers a 500W, 4-channel amp for RG Ultras (not the CVO RGU):

http://www.jmcorp.com/ProductDetail.asp?ProductID=JAMP-500HR11-UL

JMJOHN is a member here, and owns J&M.  Shoot him a PM or email him on how that kit can be adapted to for use on the CVO RGU.  Also, I know his crew have installed the amp on CVO Ultras at bike rallies so he should have access to some very specific installation information.

As Dave pointed out, "plug and play" is a misnomer when referring to amp installations since virtually all will require running a power wire from the battery to inside the fairing to power the amp, and a ground wire from the amp to the frame--typically this requires removing the gas tank, or at least raising it for the wire runs.

And, with the RG's, there is almost always a requirement to install a bracket to mount the amp inside the fairing.

Hope you find a satisfactory solution.

Carl

[TIF2]

Hey Jerry  -

Been great talking with you regarding your project - hopefully I have helped out.
Too bad you're so far away ... if you could drop the bike with me I'd have you SLAMMIN' in a day 

I'm available for any help you need.

Rock on bro ....

[TIF2]

TIF2,

Actually, I should have indicated 10-ga as the minimum.  I chose 8-ga based upon (I believe) JL's installation recommendations in their manual, and the info here:  http://www.crutchfield.com/Learn/learningcenter/car/cable_gauge_chart.html

From that chart and the length of cable run I used, I could have gotten away with 10-ga, but I figured the bigger, the better and thought I might pick up a little extra performance in the process.

I forgot about PTT, CB, etc (since I don't have those on my SESG), and didn't know those things all went thru the stock amp.  Makes sense, and makes it much more difficult for one to retain those other functions while changing anything about the stereo system.     Glad I didn't have to deal with that.  

yeah Dave ... I was thinking the same thing - 10ga as a minimum.

8ga wire is rated at 40 amps .... the max the CVO generators/alternators will churn is 45 amps. I was concerned about your installing wire (and fused) that allows the potential for overloading the charging system. I ran 10ga wire and have my amps fused at 20 just to see if they blow. They haven't yet. I'll drop them to 15 and see what happens. Since I have 2 amps if they blow at 15 then I'm pulling somewhere between 30 - 40 amps total. Starting to scratch the surface of what the bike can produce.

I "think" the Rockfords will be "ok" at 15 amps (fused) but cannot find definitive info on it - ergo - time to spend some money at the "Shack" to test by blowing fuses

No performance gain/loss by running 8ga over 10ga over 4ga over 2ga ... well ... you see the pattern However, the strand count of whatever you install is important. Electrons travel on the "outside" of a conductor - the more "outsides" you can provide the better. A 3000 strand 10ga wire (no ... I don't know of any ... illustration purposes only ) will provide cleaner current than a 4ga solid copper wire. A good "strand-count" for power/ground wire is important - not to mention it aids with install due to the natural flexiblity of a high strand-count cable.

Additionally, the stock speaker wire is more than sufficient for anything the bike can produce. Kudos for replacing it, but it isn't needed (again - just my opinion).

[captdave]

yeah Dave ... I was thinking the same thing - 10ga as a minimum.

8ga wire is rated at 40 amps .... the max the CVO generators/alternators will churn is 45 amps. I was concerned about your installing wire (and fused) that allows the potential for overloading the charging system. I ran 10ga wire and have my amps fused at 20 just to see if they blow. They haven't yet. I'll drop them to 15 and see what happens. Since I have 2 amps if they blow at 15 then I'm pulling somewhere between 30 - 40 amps total. Starting to scratch the surface of what the bike can produce.

I "think" the Rockfords will be "ok" at 15 amps (fused) but cannot find definitive info on it - ergo - time to spend some money at the "Shack" to test by blowing fuses

No performance gain/loss by running 8ga over 10ga over 4ga over 2ga ... well ... you see the pattern However, the strand count of whatever you install is important. Electrons travel on the "outside" of a conductor - the more "outsides" you can provide the better. A 3000 strand 10ga wire (no ... I don't know of any ... illustration purposes only ) will provide cleaner current than a 4ga solid copper wire. A good "strand-count" for power/ground wire is important - not to mention it aids with install due to the natural flexiblity of a high strand-count cable.

Additionally, the stock speaker wire is more than sufficient for anything the bike can produce. Kudos for replacing it, but it isn't needed (again - just my opinion).

Actually, I did have to replace the stock speaker wire because the stock lower speaker was a single mid-range, and I replaced them with 2-way coaxials (with crossovers with 2 separate terminals to each tweeter and midrange horn).  Could have used the 2 stock wires and add 2 more, but I had to change out the weatherpack connector anyway to a 4-terminal so I wouldn't have 2 separate connectors up top.  Plus, on the amp end, I couldn't use the stock harness without tearing into it and separating out the wires to run to the new amp (the way I saw it).  It was just easier for me to make the new harnesses and run direct from the weatherpacks to the amp outputs.

Thanks for the info...I didn't realize the CVO alternator maxed out at 45 amps (I should have known that though).  Like you, I'll fuse it at 20A and see what happens.  Might be an issue if I'm running the stereo and 2 sets of heated gear (gloves and jacket liners).  Each jacket is 6.5 amps, and the gloves are about 2.5 amps each pair, for a total of 18 amps.  Not sure what the lights draw, but I'm also running a powered J&M hidden antenna and Garmin Zumo 665 w/ XM.  Looks like a 20A fuse should be the max I should run.  

At the moment, I'm concerned the Polk speakers may have not been the best choice because they are 2.7 ohms impedance each.  The JL amp delivers 100 watts RMS/ch at 2 ohms and 75 watts/ch at 4 ohms (4 channels).  I know power isn't linear, but assuming it is, the amp is delivering 87.5 watts/ch to the Polks at 3 ohms.  87.5 x 4 = 350 watts delivered by the amp.  Using Crutchfield's formula to estimate max current draw:  350 x 2 = 750 watts total assuming a 50% efficient amp.  750 watts/13.8 v = 54 amps of max current draw.  If I used 4 ohm speakers, at the JL amp's 75 watts/CH RMS, max current draw would be about 43.5 amps...very close to max alternator output.  Do you agree with these numbers?

When you used a 20A fuse, did you crank it??  Please let me know what happens with the 15's.  I may try those as well.  

Thanks again for all the info.  I think you just saved me from some future major headaches...

[Jerry/MD]

Hey Jerry  -

Been great talking with you regarding your project - hopefully I have helped out.
Too bad you're so far away ... if you could drop the bike with me I'd have you SLAMMIN' in a day 

I'm available for any help you need.

Rock on bro ....

Rich,
I can't thank you enough.  You pointed out many things I had not considered. We will be talking some more for sure..... And yes, I wish I lived closer. Although I got a feeling our combined skills would get both us in trouble with the local sound level laws! 

Initial research tells me the ARC Audio amp would be my best choice. I completely agree, and Rio is on the same path, that upgrading the existing amp to get better performance out of the new speakers would be a good first step. I was surprised but the standard 2011 manual shows a wiring diagram with the external amp. So I'm already piecing together what needs to be done. Looks like I will be using those old electronic technician skills again.

I suspect the reason H-D or nobody else offers a replacement 'under the tourpak' amp is because the numbers aren't there. If there were more bikes built that would take advantage of this package...you would see it offered.

[Rio]

Hey Jerry, I will be listening and watching for your results.  Rich needs to becareful on what he says online.  Ann Arbor Michigan is not that far from NE Indiana    My bikes been sitting all winter and I've done noting but change the brake rotor bolts to chrome, added a set of knock-off hot toppers, and change the windshield.  I'm itching to get started on something.  HID lights maybe, upgrade the sound system, and re-locate the navy to where the fuel gauge is located and swap that out with the air temp gauge.  I'm still waiting for a member to finish the latter and send some pictures.

[Jerry/MD]

Hey Jerry, I will be listening and watching for your results.  Rich needs to becareful on what he says online.  Ann Arbor Michigan is not that far from NE Indiana    My bikes been sitting all winter and I've done noting but change the brake rotor bolts to chrome, added a set of knock-off hot toppers, and change the windshield.  I'm itching to get started on something.  HID lights maybe, upgrade the sound system, and re-locate the navy to where the fuel gauge is located and swap that out with the air temp gauge.  I'm still waiting for a member to finish the latter and send some pictures.

Hey Rio,
When I spoke to him he said he was outside Cincinnati, OH. That's probably about the same distance for both of us. Hmmmmm.........

FYI: According to ARC Audio's website the KS125.4, which I'm considering, will not fit under the fairing. When I compared its dimensions to the 500W J&M (which does fit) they are close in size. Maybe its a Batwing vs. Sharknose thing.    More to come.............

[Rio]

Hey Rio,
When I spoke to him he said he was outside Cincinnati, OH. That's probably about the same distance for both of us. Hmmmmm.........

FYI: According to ARC Audio's website the KS125.4, which I'm considering, will not fit under the fairing. When I compared its dimensions to the 500W J&M (which does fit) they are close in size. Maybe its a Batwing vs. Sharknose thing.    More to come.............

Cinci's about a 5 hour ride.  Right now, my deal is TIME!  I just don't have any!  I run a car dealership, comsumes time, twins in thier senior year going off to college in August.  Bought a small 1,300 sq ft lake house last August, putting our home up for sale next week, breaking ground in 2 weeks on the construction more than doubling the size (excited about my 36*26 heated garage), we will need to sell all sorts of furniture and stuff at our existing home, garage sale I guess.  Oh yeah, Punta Cana in April for kids senior trip too, and we can't forget the graduation party we will have to host....just not sure where?  hehehe....just a few things going on, oh yeah, planning a road trip to Halifax the 1st week of August with my buds!  I'm confident I could do the upgrade if I were able to find the time to concentrate and do it right?  LOL eh?

[TIF2]

FYI: According to ARC Audio's website the KS125.4, which I'm considering, will not fit under the fairing. When I compared its dimensions to the 500W J&M (which does fit) they are close in size. Maybe its a Batwing vs. Sharknose thing.    More to come.............

Hey Jerry -

Sent a reply to your PM. No problem fitting the 125.4 in the Road Glide. Gordy on here has done it, and lots of folks on hdforums.com have installed it also:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=47523.0

Regards .....

[Jerry/MD]

Hey Jerry -

Sent a reply to your PM. No problem fitting the 125.4 in the Road Glide. Gordy on here has done it, and lots of folks on hdforums.com have installed it also:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=47523.0

Regards .....

Cool, that's what I wanted to hear! Thanks!

[Jerry/MD]

Cinci's about a 5 hour ride.  Right now, my deal is TIME!  I just don't have any!  I run a car dealership, comsumes time, twins in thier senior year going off to college in August.  Bought a small 1,300 sq ft lake house last August, putting our home up for sale next week, breaking ground in 2 weeks on the construction more than doubling the size (excited about my 36*26 heated garage), we will need to sell all sorts of furniture and stuff at our existing home, garage sale I guess.  Oh yeah, Punta Cana in April for kids senior trip too, and we can't forget the graduation party we will have to host....just not sure where?  hehehe....just a few things going on, oh yeah, planning a road trip to Halifax the 1st week of August with my buds!  I'm confident I could do the upgrade if I were able to find the time to concentrate and do it right?  LOL eh?

Dang Rio, sounds like your plate is full. I will try and keep this whole amp upgrade conversation going. I was even considering mounting an after-market amp under the tourpak, in another enclosure, and wiring the inputs/outputs to the same connecctor as the stock CVO amp. It would be my custom approach to 'plug-n-play'. Problem is there isn't enough room. Most of the 4 channel amps are at least 10.5 inches long. Unfortunately that is larger than the stock unit. However, I still have not ruled out a similar approach.

FYI: I've contacted somebody concerning a bracket for mounting the amp. If I'm gonna do this, it's gonna be done right. Stay tuned.......

[Rio]

Dang Rio, sounds like your plate is full. I will try and keep this whole amp upgrade conversation going. I was even considering mounting an after-market amp under the tourpak, in another enclosure, and wiring the inputs/outputs to the same connecctor as the stock CVO amp. It would be my custom approach to 'plug-n-play'. Problem is there isn't enough room. Most of the 4 channel amps are at least 10.5 inches long. Unfortunately that is larger than the stock unit. However, I still have not ruled out a similar approach.

FYI: I've contacted somebody concerning a bracket for mounting the amp. If I'm gonna do this, it's gonna be done right. Stay tuned.......

Jerry, that would be my thought.  Why not just mount it inside the tour pack?  They don't take up that much room, obviously it will stay dry, and it would make easy for adjustments.  I would think that it would be easier to rewire an aftermarket amp identical to the factory amp and remove it?  I would assume you have all the same connections, power ground, speaker in/out, I would assume they all work in a similar way?  To me this would make sense and be the easiest approach.  You already have wiring with gromets for water seal in the tour pack now? 

On you intital thread, you mentioned that you were disappointed with the performance after you upgraded the speakers.  Did you see worthwhile improvement with that, or did you just expect more?  The current system for most is not terrible, its loud enough, what I'm looking for is better sound quality and clearity at that louder volume.  Did the speakers alone give you that?  I suspect not because usually its a combination of speaker quality + power quality = sound quality

[TIF2]

For the Road Glide, I would suggest installing the amp in the fairing and using the factory wiring for the rear pod speakers. For dealing with the additional signals/functionality in the rear pods - look at the wiring I did for my install in the attached link. I would recommend a similar approach here. Since the TP on the RG Ultra is not removeable, it will be less terminations than on my SESG2.

Hope this helps ...

[Jerry/MD]

Jerry, that would be my thought.  Why not just mount it inside the tour pack?  They don't take up that much room, obviously it will stay dry, and it would make easy for adjustments.  I would think that it would be easier to rewire an aftermarket amp identical to the factory amp and remove it?  I would assume you have all the same connections, power ground, speaker in/out, I would assume they all work in a similar way?  To me this would make sense and be the easiest approach.  You already have wiring with gromets for water seal in the tour pack now? 

On you intital thread, you mentioned that you were disappointed with the performance after you upgraded the speakers.  Did you see worthwhile improvement with that, or did you just expect more?  The current system for most is not terrible, its loud enough, what I'm looking for is better sound quality and clearity at that louder volume.  Did the speakers alone give you that?  I suspect not because usually its a combination of speaker quality + power quality = sound quality

Yeah Rio, I expected more. Plus, many are stating you need something other than the stock amp to make the Rokker speakers sing. Who knows. I'm conversing with TIF2 (Rich) to figure out what I really want.

Jerry