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CVO Technical => Milwaukee-Eight => Topic started by: barrhill on November 23, 2019, 06:45:14 PM
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2019 cvo RG thinking of a stage 3 or 4 . while I am in should I update to 2020 oil pump on my dime
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Definitely.
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X2
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X3
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I'm stepping up to the S&S camplate and pump along with the Cam upgrade on my 2018.
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Just sharing that S&S does not claim that their pump will prevent sumping. I can share personally that prior to my tear down and building my 124” up, I had a sumping issue with the Stage lll 117” build. I was using the S&S pump and plate that several well known builders suggested, it was not until I removed the S&S and installed the HD pump/pump plate w seal that the sumping was minimized. When I say minimized I still had slightly over the 6oz but manageable. Now with 124” build and the HD pump w seal, hardly anything in the crank.
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Problem is there is an assumption of good ring seal and in these big bore motors it isn't always the case. Then the best pump in the world and good design becomes irrelevant.
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My friend had a few problems with his mako and they upgraded his bike to the new 2020 oil pump under warranty since the oil pump in the current bikes is now obsolete. I would have them.do something under warranty since you're spending some good coin with the motor upgrade.
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Problem is there is an assumption of good ring seal and in these big bore motors it isn't always the case. Then the best pump in the world and good design becomes irrelevant.
Very true Don, but on the other hand the Twin Cam's weren't known for sumping and they also had the same kinds of cylinder sealing issues from day one. M8 sumping seems to have many factors that can make it worse, but I'm not convinced they've actually done anything with the root cause. How many oil pump designs have they thrown at it so far, five or six? If the pump was the root cause it should have been fixed on the first design change. They're just trying different band-aids until they get the severe failure rate down to a rate they can stand on warranty. They will BS customers on the less severe but still not right sumping, then turn the whole mess over to the ESP folks and the customers at twenty four months and one day. Just like the Twin Cam 110's.
JMHO - Jerry
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Jerry
Appreciate the response. I understand the underlying issues with the crankcase design and the large displacement of these motors plus the very high cylinder pressure and heat just exaggerates the problems compared to a twin cam. Stock M8 motors crank ~230 psi on a compression gauge. It is a tall order for the air cooled cylinders to remain straight and true under these pressures and with EPA calibrations.
The motors I have had experience with are fine with either the HD 2020 version of pump or the Feuling Race system, assuming good ring seal. There is a member on here, CVOsjoe, that is at 160 hp/152 tq and his is clear. He used the 2020 pump. I bored, honed, and seasoned the S&S cylinders. His is a 126" 4.280 x 4.375. Mahle pistons with the graf coating removed and coated with Line2Line. This is a very quiet running motor too.
Guys will ask me about seasoning. This is nothing high tech, at least my method. I have a lab oven with good uniformity. I heat them to 250° for an hour then let them cool in the oven. I do this 2 or 3 times.
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Jerry
Appreciate the response. I understand the underlying issues with the crankcase design and the large displacement of these motors plus the very high cylinder pressure and heat just exaggerates the problems compared to a twin cam. Stock M8 motors crank ~230 psi on a compression gauge. It is a tall order for the air cooled cylinders to remain straight and true under these pressures and with EPA calibrations.
The motors I have had experience with are fine with either the HD 2020 version of pump or the Feuling Race system, assuming good ring seal. There is a member on here, CVOsjoe, that is at 160 hp/152 tq and his is clear. He used the 2020 pump. I bored, honed, and seasoned the S&S cylinders. His is a 126" 4.280 x 4.375. Mahle pistons with the graf coating removed and coated with Line2Line. This is a very quiet running motor too.
Guys will ask me about seasoning. This is nothing high tech, at least my method. I have a lab oven with good uniformity. I heat them to 250° for an hour then let them cool in the oven. I do this 2 or 3 times.
This what you are doing:
250 °
Stress relief is substantially completed at 350 ° in 1 h, but at the expense of reduction in strength and hardness. Appreciable reduction in strength and hardness is avoided by using a stress-relief temperature of 250 ° for residual stress reduction of squeeze-cast aluminum alloy.
JohnT
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Got another one to put back together after a failure. Was sumping real bad. Turned out the crank that at the time of a cam change had .003 runout is now at .008 with a stuck rod. Caught it before cylinders were ruined. Motors coming out as we speak and crank will go to GRC or Randy Torgeson
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2020 OEM pump is the only way that we are building them currently , but we have a few " billet high dollars units with dyno time on them for sale "
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2020 OEM pump is the only way that we are building them currently , but we have a few " billet high dollars units with dyno time on them for sale "
Was planning on using a billet High dollar oil pump, but seeing all the good results and recommendations for the 2020 HD oil pump, I'll be using it on my build to save a little money.
Good endorsement for the 2020 pump is seeing its what you use in your builds.