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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: nhFLSTFSE on May 31, 2005, 09:15:19 PM
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Here's a topic that should cause some concern. But first please answer my???
I recently purchased an aftermarket exhaust (V&H) but if failed(112) state decibel rating.
I prefer the aftermarket for styling & performance. I have asked the manufacturer for assistance. NH is suppossed to be testing more this year and my local dealer indicated only certain ones..
Does anyone know the ratings for any of these HD p/ns:
80444-03
80223-02
80390-01
Any feedback on these would help
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Here's a topic that should cause some concern. But first please answer my???
I recently purchased an aftermarket exhaust (V&H) but if failed(112) state decibel rating.
I prefer the aftermarket for styling & performance. I have asked the manufacturer for assistance. NH is suppossed to be testing more this year and my local dealer indicated only certain ones..
Does anyone know the ratings for any of these HD p/ns:
80444-03
80223-02
80390-01
Any feedback on these would help
NH I can't help you out on this one. I do know the Harley Screamin Eagle exhaust systems are louder than the one that came on your bike from the factory but not as loud
as most aftermarket exhaust systems. I can't believe they have noise laws that they enforce. There has to be ways around the law.
BE SAFE
THE DAWG
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The noise issue is a huge problem they gave 515 tickets in daytona for noise. The motor company has made this the topic of the year. Our local law enforcement has started to test when they pull you over.
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Well one thing about it I don't run drag pipes I never have and never will. The Thunder header, D&D fat kat and the true duals are a bit loud but not till you really get into it. I think the problem is the noise from the drag pipes. I just hope we don't go through this in Maryland.
BE SAFE
THE DAWG
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Here's a topic that should cause some concern. But first please answer my???
I recently purchased an aftermarket exhaust (V&H) but if failed(112) state decibel rating.
I prefer the aftermarket for styling & performance. I have asked the manufacturer for assistance. NH is suppossed to be testing more this year and my local dealer indicated only certain ones..
Does anyone know the ratings for any of these HD p/ns:
80444-03
80223-02
80390-01
Any feedback on these would help
WOW, I bet this will put a big hit on Laconia this year. I know that the 'Americade' folks
have said for years that they will not toloerate loud pipes.
I didn't have any problems with my Bassani True Dual/Thunder Cones last year. I think a lot of it is how you ride it. I agree with 'Dawg' !
But as MM has said ...the MoCo is the one setting the standard now, and we might as well get use to running a quiter system, and i agree, the boys with the 'Drag/Straight' pipes are the ones that seem to be getting the tickets.
WD
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I got an idea [smiley=bulb2.gif] for a new T-Shirt to sell at Laconia......................
[smiley=sauer021.gif]"GOT BAFFLES'S?" [smiley=sauer021.gif]
We don't have a "loud pipe" issue here in Ohio...........at least not yet. [smiley=thinking2.gif]
Local cops will ticket you though if you are just throttle jockeying to make noise. [smiley=stop.gif]
I'd run the pipes I like best and not worry about a few tickets unless it adds points on your license...........then I'd [smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=drink.gif] [smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=drink.gif] [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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Yeah, 'er 'uh, nhFLSTSFE,
I will continue to run my RINEHART'S! With all the Commercial Vehicles with Diesels and straight pipes, Muscle Cars with Headers and "Hollywood" mufflers, Diesel Locomotives, Tug Boats, Speed Boats, Skidders, Dozers, and numerous other modes of recreational and commercial transportation, that put out buku more noise than my Harley, the powers that be can kiss my Lily White @$$! I had my one and only citation for excessive noise dismissed by a technicality. My exhaust system had no Leaks! Don't roll over for these liberal bastards! There endeth the lesson. Later--HUBBARD
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Hmmmm, let's see. Helmet laws [smiley=helmet.gif], EPA regulations [smiley=deal2.gif], the new Michigan "click it or ticket" campaign for seat belt usage in cars [smiley=policeman.gif]and now enforcement of exhaust noise limits!!!!
Michigan has had an off road regulation for years at 94db and are tested at enduro and off road events. Wonder if they will try to enforce this with on-road vehicles. Are we being over regulated or what?
Next, they'll be regulating what's in our beer [smiley=beerchug.gif].......sh#@....they already do!!!!!!!
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If you find yourself on the Southern California coast be careful in Laguna Beach as they do cite motorcycles for "excessive noise". I was written up on my SEEG while cruising through town along with about 20 other bikes during the hour that I stopped for lunch. The cop told me he had a stock fat boy and did not understand [smiley=nixweiss.gif]why people modified the exhaust and then he proceeded to explain to me almost verbatim from the Screaming Eagle catalog that my screaming eagle mufflers were for "race application" only and were illegal on public roads. Hard to argue with the truth [smiley=furious.gif]. I am just glad my town does not go out of their way to enforce this violation [smiley=laugh.gif].
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There endeth the lesson. Later--HUBBARD [/quote]
Amen !
'Ride Proud, Ride Loud' [smiley=biggthumpup.gif]
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THey don't have any laws here YET in Georgia, I run SE II's but always make it a habit to ride quiet through the small towns . If you piss people off they will legislate against you.
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When they stop you do they have a DB meter to read the sound level? I wonder how the law reads? Does it say noise level while moving, or while stopped? Does it make a difference? Just how do they get to the point of saying your bike is too loud? I should think they would do it by having you roll on the throttle at a stand still but I am not sure thats an accurate test of sound level. I think there is an argument to be made for the police having to test under dynamic conditons (while the bike is being ridden down the road) as opposed to static (at a traffic stop) if this is how they are doing it. Simply saying that a bike is too loud because there are no baffles in the pipes or because the exhaust system is marketed by the motor company for off road use should not be enough to issue a citation in my humble opinion. The burdin of proof should be on the police. I.e prove in a court of law that my exhaust was too loud while I was moving at the speed limit assuming I am not trying to be obnoxious with the throttle. Can anyone from the law enforcement community share with us how the law reads in their state?
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I ride with a gentleman who is an Oregon State Trooper. He says he regularly writes folks up for excessive exhaust noise, and the only litmus test he has to pass in court is "is the exhaust noise a public disturbance" It apparently comes under the same heading as disturbing the peace for loud car stereos and such. He uses the law as a stick to get folks to be polite when they are in town, etc. His comment that stuck with me was " I don't care how loud the exhuast can be, I care how loud the rider makes it and why..." He has Hooker 2-1 headers on his bike and it's just as loud as hell, but he doesn't make a pest of himself with it, and figures if he can be quiet when he wants to, so can other folks...
If only ALL law enforcement was done with common sense like my friend applies it, eh?
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First thanks to all the responses. However, I really would like to "Not get harassed" by the cops. I do not rev up excessively or promote noise. I like the looks of the V&H Big radius and would like to redo baffles if they help me.
The state of NH is pushing the written laws big time this year for some reason. The legal limit is 106
I need to know what do others have for engine size/pipes & what yours rate? Keep in mind I have a stock FB 103 and would like to use the SE's which come closest to the limit, etc..
Thanks
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There is a whole science to this sound deal. They have been trying to get a standard for years. Maybe now it exists. Things like how far away the decibel meter is placed?, what settings on the meter?(weighted or not)?, what angle? Not sure, but you failing by 6dB I doubt if the human ear could pick that up. I had bad mufflers one time went to the inspection station after loading them with steel wool balls. I passed the test. When I got on it leaving the station the steel wool shot out the back and were bouncing all over the driveway when I looked in the mirrors. Still get a smile thinking about it today.I guess I would put on quiet pipes get the sticker. Then put the "loud" pipes back on and forget about it. You could go to Radio Shack buy a cheap decibel meter and learn the science for your state requirements.
BTW it is really frustrating when the dealer that sold you the pipes fails you on the sound test.
Good luck!
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I brought a sound level meter home from work. Did a couple of measurements on an 04 88ci dresser with Rienharts and quiet baffles. Best I could figure the bike would pass N.H 106dB and fail Ma. as it looked to be over 96dB. Anyone out there have any kind of standards on how to actually set the test up? Distance, angles,height,rpms all have an effect on the reading even the scale settings on the meter (weghted or not , peak or average) Also wondering if there is a federal standard and if the states are different which standard would prevail. Since I been riding I hate to think about all the pipes I have gone thru. I know it would fill a small garage. Straights,baloney,slash,tapperd,shotgun,fishtail with and without baffles,bubs,Dunstall Silencers,Reinhart ,Se to name few.Never new about dyno's till a couple of years ago. Well I'm just a hobbyist and curious about taking sound level readings and looking for some standards on how to take readings. Thanks
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I certainly don't know the answer to this without doing some homework (not going to happen anytime soon) but your mention of MA and NH statutory requirements being different made me wonder about something. At first glance I'm not sure that would stand up to the Full Faith and Credit Clause.
Things that can be adjusted in response to differing state statutes are ok. That's why one state can have a different speed limit from another or a different helmet law. All we have to do is not twist the grip as hard or stop at the state line and pull on the hat. But things that can't be so easily changed are generally accepted as ok if legal from the state of origin (at least for short visits). That's why every out of state vehicle crossing in to California doesn't have to stop and bolt on a bunch of new emissions equipment.
Since you can't be expected to stop on the side of the road and change pipes, and if you're pipes are legal "at home," I'm just not sure how well a neighboring state's stricter limit could be applied. Of course the limit could be applied to vehicles domiciled and registered in the stricter state. But the visitors might be a question.
Granted, it could turn both ways. The state with the stricter limit could say you just shouldn't turn the throttle so hard as to generate the higher level of noise. Hmmmm, interesting [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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Very interesting and ambiguous problem. Complicating this situation are the states where the noise level is arbitrary on the local, county and state enforcement levels. Here in FL, the situation is even more complicated by the near complete lack of law enforcement training regarding the "how noisy is excessive" debate. Daytona, unbelievably is discretionary on an officer by officer basis. The Florida Keys (Monroe County) examines the noise levels with roadblocks and the decision made by the uniformed shift commander scientifically listening to the bikes while Key West doesn't really care if you appear to have enough cash to support the local economy. State police are a whole different matter in that it is not uncommon for bikers to be stopped in rural/non-populated areas for excessive noise at highway speeds. Seems like the best alternative here is to have as much horsepower as you can afford and put the kickstand down somewhere in the next county when the lights come on. [smiley=laugh.gif]
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Thanks for your responses. Seems like I may have to do a little digging.
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I think the answer to the question is that they (the local enforcement) can do about what they want to.........ie: in the old school days at Daytona (and I'm sure other locales) you had to pass the 'nightstick test' of having a baffle stop the insertion of a police nightstick shoved up your pipe.........of course some quickly learned how to 'defeat' this with less restrictive 'stops' tacked inside the drag pipes.......Har! [smiley=cool2.gif] spyder
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I think the answer to the question is that they (the local enforcement) can do about what they want to.........ie: in the old school days at Daytona (and I'm sure other locales) you had to pass the 'nightstick test' of having a baffle stop the insertion of a police nightstick shoved up your pipe.........of course some quickly learned how to 'defeat' this with less restrictive 'stops' tacked inside the drag pipes.......Har! [smiley=cool2.gif] spyder
One year at Daytona I got stopped. Had girl on the back of my 86 fxwg. She had a thong swimsuit on. From the back when she was sitting looked to have nothing on. They stopped me (I guess to check out the nekked lady) within minutes 5 or six cop cars at the "scene".
Well I had no baffles soI told the cop not even to bother with the stick. I had my mini-baffles hack sawed version. Stuck em in and another cop passed the bike. BTW nothing happened with the gal they just made her wear a towel and said thongs were not allowed in town.
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I found this in MA DMV FAQ section:
My motorcycle was failed for illegal pipes. What's legal?
Generally speaking, you must have a baffle in the exhaust system of a motorcycle. Straight pipes are illegal, and your motorcycle must meet certain noise requirements. For motorcycles manufactured before 1986, 102 decibels is the legal limit, 99 decibels for motorcycles manufactured after 1986.
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I found the reason this sound emission thing is so varied. Mainly because the Feds created a monster. All this project did was give me a headache. I did not find anything newer. But if the states are based on this and the Feds, according to rumor ,start their crap in 06 . It's not going to be pretty. Wonder what hp/torque curves the electric bikes will have? I'm done, apologize or the rant.
http://www.nonoise.org/lawlib/cfr/40/40cfr205.htm
Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 40, Volume 16, Parts 190 to 259]
[Revised as of July 1, 1998]
[CITE: 40CFR205.174]
[Page 142-148]
TITLE 40--PROTECTION OF ENVIRONMENT
CHAPTER I--ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY (CONTINUED)
PART 205--TRANSPORTATION EQUIPMENT NOISE EMISSION CONTROLS--Table of Contents
Subpart E--Motorcycle Exhaust Systems
Sec. 205.174 Remedial orders.
The Administrator may issue appropriate remedial orders to a
manufacturer if products are distributed into commerce not in compliance
with the regulations of this subpart. Potential
[[Page 143]]
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Well one thing is sure, its going to get worse..In California, you can be written for "modified exhaust" be it 4 wheeler or 2, without a meter. The way you ride and your attitude go a long way in the Officers decision to give you a verbal warning or a citation. The noise limit in Ca. is 80db for m/c's made after 1985. If an officer writes you for modified exhaust you may be required to take it to a compliance station where it is checked with a meter. And, yes you can be written for having mufflers that are designated "for race use only" like the SE ones. One reason is, the factory mufflers have catalytic converters. Which is where I think they are going..emissions standards and testing like autos. It may not happen for several years (I hope) but don't throw your stock exhaust away. Just my .02
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I think this is the only legal option for California (from Parts & Accessories Catalog):
Screamin' Eagle® Active Performance Muffler Kit
The best of both worlds. This street-legal exhaust system provides the horsepower and torque characteristics of Screamin' Eagle® Pro Race-Use Mufflers while maintaining EPA and CARB approved sound and emission levels. The catalyst-equipped exhaust system utilizes an electronic servo-controlled butterfly valve to alter the gas path between the left and right muffler. The integrated on-board computer measures operating conditions, and limits the exhaust flow to the left muffler to optimize performance, sound and emissions. The results are enhanced torque and horsepower throughout the operating range, and the rich, pleasing exhaust note you expect from a Harley-Davidson®. The complete system includes left and right catalyst-equipped mufflers, servo motor, cable-operated butterfly valve, plug-in on board computer with service diagnostic capabilities, left-hand heat shield, and all necessary installation hardware.
Warranty and Caution Information
65467-05
IN-STORE PURCHASE ONLY Contact dealer for pricing and availability.
Fits '05 EFI Touring models (except FLHTCSE). Requires separate purchase of Screamin' Eagle Stage I Air Cleaner Kit P/N 29773-02B and two Muffler End Caps. ECM calibration is required, and dealer installation is recommended. 50 state street legal when used with stock 1450cc Twin Cam engine and Screamin' Eagle Stage I Air Cleaner Kit P/N 29773-02B.
MSRP US $699.95
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I think this is the only legal option for California (from Parts & Accessories Catalog):
Screamin' Eagle® Active Performance Muffler Kit
The best of both worlds. This street-legal exhaust system provides the horsepower and torque characteristics of Screamin' Eagle® Pro Race-Use Mufflers while maintaining EPA and CARB approved sound and emission levels. The catalyst-equipped exhaust system utilizes an electronic servo-controlled butterfly valve to alter the gas path between the left and right muffler. The integrated on-board computer measures operating conditions, and limits the exhaust flow to the left muffler to optimize performance, sound and emissions. The results are enhanced torque and horsepower throughout the operating range, and the rich, pleasing exhaust note you expect from a Harley-Davidson®. The complete system includes left and right catalyst-equipped mufflers, servo motor, cable-operated butterfly valve, plug-in on board computer with service diagnostic capabilities, left-hand heat shield, and all necessary installation hardware.
Warranty and Caution Information
65467-05
IN-STORE PURCHASE ONLY Contact dealer for pricing and availability.
Fits '05 EFI Touring models [bgcolor=Yellow](except FLHTCSE). [/bgcolor]Requires separate purchase of Screamin' Eagle Stage I Air Cleaner Kit P/N 29773-02B and two Muffler End Caps. ECM calibration is required, and dealer installation is recommended. 50 state street legal when used with stock 1450cc Twin Cam engine and Screamin' Eagle Stage I Air Cleaner Kit P/N 29773-02B.
MSRP US $699.95
This is not for use on the FLHTCSE bikes [smiley=thumbsdown.gif]
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We have installed this system on a test bike at the shop. Dyno results are a couple hp less than the SE slip ons. It is quieter than SE but louder than stock. I am trying to find out why it won't fit on SEEG's. Sometimes what they say won't fit, actually will work. I have the V&H Pro pipe and am very happy with it. I will stick with it until they require us to smog our bikes ( [smiley=thumbsdown.gif]) I hope that is a long way off.
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My guess is that H-D didn't spend the money to certify this system on anything other than the TC88 (compliance testing for the EPA is not cheap). Physically, I can't think of any reason it wouldn't fit. Perhaps the higher flow on the 103 would throw off the electronic controller?????
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My guess is that H-D didn't spend the money to certify this system on anything other than the TC88 (compliance testing for the EPA is not cheap). Physically, I can't think of any reason it wouldn't fit. Perhaps the higher flow on the 103 would throw off the electronic controller?????
The physical mountings are the same. So I'd never assumed a physical fitment issue. But the ECM's instructions for our 103s are different. So I'd always assumed they'd just not been mapped to play well together.
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Here's what I found while searching the web...
HB 326 – AS AMENDED BY THE SENATE
23Mar2005… 0577h
06/09/05 1785s
2005 SESSION
05-0095
03/09
HOUSE BILL 326
AN ACT relative to motorcycle noise levels and mufflers.
SPONSORS: Rep. M. Blanchard, Rock 16; Rep. Pantelakos, Rock 16; Rep. Bicknell, Rock 1; Rep. Weare, Rock 14; Rep. Langley, Rock 18; Sen. Fuller Clark, Dist 24; Sen. Green, Dist 6
COMMITTEE: Transportation
AMENDED ANALYSIS
This bill clarifies that a person may not operate a motor vehicle with a straight pipe exhaust system. This bill also establishes fines for operating a motor vehicle with a straight pipe exhaust system and for exceeding permissible motorcycle noise levels.
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Explanation: Matter added to current law appears in bold italics.
Matter removed from current law appears [in brackets and struckthrough.]
Matter which is either (a) all new or (b) repealed and reenacted appears in regular type.
23Mar2005… 0577h
06/09/05 1785s
05-0095
03/09
STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE
In the Year of Our Lord Two Thousand Five
AN ACT relative to motorcycle noise levels and mufflers.
Be it Enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives in General Court convened:
1 New Paragraph; Equipment of Vehicles; Prevention of Noise; Exhaust Modifications. Amend RSA 266:59 by inserting after paragraph III the following new paragraph:
IV. No person shall operate a motor vehicle with a straight pipe exhaust system; “straight pipe exhaust system” means any straight-through exhaust system that does not contain baffles or otherwise does not meet the definition of muffler in RSA 259:66. Any person who violates the provisions of this paragraph shall be guilty of a violation and shall be fined not less than $100 for a first offense, not less than $250 for a second offense in a calendar year, and not less than $500 for a third or subsequent offense in a calendar year.
2 Motorcycle Noise Levels; Fines. Amend RSA 266:59-a, III to read as follows:
III. Any person who violates the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a violation and shall be fined not less than $100 nor more than $300.
3 Effective Date. This act shall take effect January 1, 2006.
Hmmm..?
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Like the sticker says loud pipes saves lifes. I unpacked the baffle in my Hooker. Its really not too loud. As far as I know they dont mess with the motorcycles too much about noise in Houston [smiley=shocked2.gif]