www.CVOHARLEY.com
CVO Technical => Intake/Exhaust/ECM => Topic started by: jesse111 on January 08, 2010, 06:37:26 PM
-
Looking to replace head pipes to remove cat from the system. I'll keep the stock pipes for reinstall if need be.
I'd like to know the best fit and finish in your opinion. I'm not really concerned with eeking out every last drop of power so performance is secondary. Would love to hear opinions on your experiences.
Also looking for a slip-on that is a tad quieter than Rineharts but sound similar if anyone can suggest.
Thanks.
2010 Ultra CVO.
-
What you looking for??...
True duals?
Retain stock look (keep left pipe running under the bike)?
2 into 1??
Give us a little more info... I guarantee we can help you spend some $$$ :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
-
Yes more info for sure thanks.
Definitely not 2 into 1.
I could go either way when it comes to true duals or stock look.
-
I'd look into Vance & Hines, Rinehart's, Freedom Performance, Freedom Cycles. Most all will give you the option to use different mufflers since the header pipe is a standard size at the muffler end and allows to use other brands of mufflers. Rinehart's (and possible Freedom Cycles) will tie you into using there complete system... header/mufflers. I would suggest you try to see/hear as many different setups as possible on bikes similar to yours (110ci CVO's) as some will be louder then others... this will also give you the opportunity to see fit/finish of them.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
-
After doing some research I'm beginning to lean towards the V&H power duals. It seems they've developed a design offering the best of both worlds. True duals as well as true to the original under frame design of stock for rear exhaust.
-
After doing some research I'm beginning to lean towards the V&H power duals. It seems they've developed a design offering the best of both worlds. True duals as well as true to the original under frame design of stock for rear exhaust.
Not a bad choice... haven't heard them, but they look nice on the website. :2vrolijk_21:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
-
You have lots of choices and it really depends on you budget. Sound is very subjective and what is music to someone's ears may be noise to you or vice versa.
As far as head pipes, I contacted Vance and Hines as well as S&S and they both stated that if you wanted to keep low range power and torque you should stick with stock (on my 2006 FLHTCUSE -No cat then) since it was well designed. You could save money and buy a H-D 96 ci stock headpipe (No cat in those) or send it to someone like Full Sac and let them remove your cat. Only drawback to that is if state inspection laws or EPA regulations get enforced and you have to return the bike to stock condition you won't have a headpipe with cat to use.
On my 2009 FLTRSE3 I installed the Vance & Hines power duals headpipe and they seem to be good so far.
When it comes to mufflers there are many choices from having new baffles installed in your stock mufflers either by a local shop or send them to Full Sac, you can even choose the size baffles for best performance and sound levels.
I love the deep rich sound of the S&S SPO oval mufflers on my 2006, it is not annoying and you can hear your radio but they really allow the engine to breath and have a deep sound under acceleration.
I wanted to put the S&S on my 2009 but due to the extended saddlebags the oval mufflers won't fit.
On my 2009 I went with Cobra Slip ons and they have a good quality and deep sound too. I am happy with them so far and they went on the Vance& Hines head pipes well.
You may find that going to a large bike event and listening to various bikes until you find a system you like. be aware of engine sizes though because a 110" motor will be louder than a 96 or smaller motor.
If you go with a more open air filter setup you will need a tuner as well to keep your air fuel ratio correct and the motor won't run too lean with more open pipes vs. stock. Also consider doing the air intake at the time of the pipes so you save in tuning time.
-
Shot of my 2009 with Power Duals headpipes and Cobra mufflers.
-
Shot of my 2006 with stock headpipes and S&S SPO mufflers.
-
After doing some research I'm beginning to lean towards the V&H power duals. It seems they've developed a design offering the best of both worlds. True duals as well as true to the original under frame design of stock for rear exhaust.
I have the Vance and Hines Power Duals on my SESG. They perform nicely and with the Vance and Hines Classic 4" slippons, sound really nice. Keep in mind though, the Power Duals are NOT true duals, they are actually like the stock headers, 2-into-1-into-2, but without the CAT and do provide a little better performance over the stock pipes with CAT. If you want true duals, Vance and Hines does make a set. I think there may have been a couple here that put those one, so if you do a search on them you will find the thread....
:devil:
-
I installed the V&H monster oval slip-on to the standard HD cat header and was pleased with the sound. Then I replaced the HD headpipe with the V&H power duals...still sound great.
The big difference now is when I get on her, she will make some noise..... :bananarock: :bananarock:....perhap sounds a bit to good because I find myself wanting to get on her a lot more just to hear her scream...in fact my wife has on occasion nudged me to get it up.....(the RPMs I mean)
-
I have the Vance and Hines Power Duals on my SESG. They perform nicely and with the Vance and Hines Classic 4" slippons, sound really nice. Keep in mind though, the Power Duals are NOT true duals, they are actually like the stock headers, 2-into-1-into-2, but without the CAT and do provide a little better performance over the stock pipes with CAT. If you want true duals, Vance and Hines does make a set. I think there may have been a couple here that put those one, so if you do a search on them you will find the thread....
:devil:
Maybe forgot to mention that they look great on his SESG....
-
I'm putting the Fullsac head pipe on my SESG this weekend... will post pics when done. Have done the baffle change to 2.0 and so far sounds nice, no impact on hearing the stereo. I'm looking forward to the look of the Fullsac, as they are black ceramic and use the stock heat shields... looking at the chrome on the engine and seeing the bluing in the reflection has always been a bit of a downer.... we'll see how the black ceramic looks and sounds.. Fullsac states they are seeing a few HP increase over stock with cat.
-
I have the Vance and Hines Power Duals on my SESG. They perform nicely and with the Vance and Hines Classic 4" slippons, sound really nice. Keep in mind though, the Power Duals are NOT true duals, they are actually like the stock headers, 2-into-1-into-2, but without the CAT and do provide a little better performance over the stock pipes with CAT. If you want true duals, Vance and Hines does make a set. I think there may have been a couple here that put those one, so if you do a search on them you will find the thread....
:devil:
Yes, I have become aware of the "power chamber" technology through my research but thanks for pointing it out in case I hadn't.
Not interested in true duals anymore since the production of these "crossover" designs by V&H and BuB's have been developed. As I do more research and contrary to my original post, I believe I do actually have a preference developing towards the stock look of the right header going under the frame. Furthermore, I'm more interested in low/mid torque than horsepower which seems to make the true dual design a little less attractive to me as far as power distribution as well as functionality (heat) goes.
-
I have the Vance and Hines Power Duals on my SESG. They perform nicely and with the Vance and Hines Classic 4" slippons, sound really nice. Keep in mind though, the Power Duals are NOT true duals, they are actually like the stock headers, 2-into-1-into-2, but without the CAT and do provide a little better performance over the stock pipes with CAT. If you want true duals, Vance and Hines does make a set. I think there may have been a couple here that put those one, so if you do a search on them you will find the thread....
:devil:
RedDevil, do you mean the Basic Slipons, I didn't see the Classic slipons on their web site?
-
regarding the just the {fulsack head pipe} , i never saw it advertised on there web site, how much are they asking for it
-
That new fullsac X pipe is interesting. I didn't see it on there site. I'm more interested in torque than HP. Nothing wrong with both but I'm not a high rpm racing kinda rider. Is stepped a better way to go? I really like the stock use of chrome shields.
-
what kind of hp gain will i get, over the stock hp , by installing the v/h head pipe, and the v/h hi output slipons, and a h.d. remapping, and should there be any issues when completed , like de-sel popping,or any other surprises,
-
That new fullsac X pipe is interesting. I didn't see it on there site. I'm more interested in torque than HP. Nothing wrong with both but I'm not a high rpm racing kinda rider. Is stepped a better way to go? I really like the stock use of chrome shields.
Fullsac haven't put it on there website yet but you can call and order direct. They also sent me some photos of the pipe
-
Proto type on the bike
-
Fullsac haven't put it on there website yet but you can call and order direct. They also sent me some photos of the pipe
That pipe looks like serious business. The stepped design is impressive. I'll be purchasing either the X pipe or the V&H power duals. Have not made up my mind yet. I do like how Fullsak offers the goods to go along with the upgrade like a TTS fuel map as well as a tailored size for the 110.
I'm still curious though about torque gain or loss at low and mid rpm. they say these pipes offer a 3-4 hp gain but no reference is made for torque. If this pipe is designed more for high rpm racing type engine speeds, like drag pipes, it may not be for me. Sure looks like a nice piece of work though.
-
That pipe looks like serious business. The stepped design is impressive. I'll be purchasing either the X pipe or the V&H power duals. Have not made up my mind yet. I do like how Fullsak offers the goods to go along with the upgrade like a TTS fuel map as well as a tailored size for the 110.
I'm still curious though about torque gain or loss at low and mid rpm. they say these pipes offer a 3-4 hp gain but no reference is made for torque. If this pipe is designed more for high rpm racing type engine speeds, like drag pipes, it may not be for me. Sure looks like a nice piece of work though.
Do a search on the site.. (search Fullsac) there are several dyno runs posted and I'm sure you'll find what your looking for.
-
Fullsac haven't put it on there website yet but you can call and order direct. They also sent me some photos of the pipe
Saw a few different prototypes Steve was working on when I was there in early November... they are VERY nice looking pieces.
-
RedDevil, do you mean the Basic Slipons, I didn't see the Classic slipons on their web site?
:oops: You're right, I should have said the basic slippons, vice classic. I like the sounds of the basics too, they have a nice throaty rumble to them.
:devil:
-
That pipe looks like serious business. The stepped design is impressive. I'll be purchasing either the X pipe or the V&H power duals. Have not made up my mind yet. I do like how Fullsak offers the goods to go along with the upgrade like a TTS fuel map as well as a tailored size for the 110.
I'm still curious though about torque gain or loss at low and mid rpm. they say these pipes offer a 3-4 hp gain but no reference is made for torque. If this pipe is designed more for high rpm racing type engine speeds, like drag pipes, it may not be for me. Sure looks like a nice piece of work though.
I can't speak for the Fulsac stepped headers, but I do know that the Rineharts were stepped and with those you picked up some higher RPM hp but sacrificed some lower RPM torque over non-stepped headers. Talking with a few tuners, they've told me this is a typical difference between stepped and non-stepped.
:devil:
-
Here is the link to Info on Fullsac X pipe. Posted by Steve George
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=44844.0
-
never crossed my mind until now, about the cops checkin for mods on pipes, but if they would, the look of the v/h power dauls would be a give away
-
never crossed my mind until now, about the cops checkin for mods on pipes, but if they would, the look of the v/h power dauls would be a give away
What they'll look for, if anything, is the EPA certification stamping on the mufflers. Mainly because they're more interested in noise prevention, than emission. If your state doesn't have emission testing, you're good to go with aftermarket headers. Just be sure you know what your noise laws are for motorcycles. In Northern Virginia, the local gendarme will run their night stick in the muffler to see if you have baffles or not. If not, you'll be cited.
:devil:
-
Do a search on the site.. (search Fullsac) there are several dyno runs posted and I'm sure you'll find what your looking for.
Tried that. Nothing on torque for the x pipe.
-
Here is the link to Info on Fullsac X pipe. Posted by Steve George
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=44844.0
Excluding torque specs.
-
I can't speak for the Fulsac stepped headers, but I do know that the Rineharts were stepped and with those you picked up some higher RPM hp but sacrificed some lower RPM torque over non-stepped headers. Talking with a few tuners, they've told me this is a typical difference between stepped and non-stepped.
:devil:
My research has indicated the same thing. Stepped is a race orientated design. I've read similar things on race car sites as well. Increased HP and very good for high revving needs. I wonder if Fullsac would consider an X pipe but with higher torque capabilities for us lower revving kinda riders. They could call it the X-T pipe.
-
Here's an excerpt from hotbikeweb.com...
http://www.hotbikeweb.com/tech/0805_hbkp_exhaust_systems/buying_considerations.html
If header diameter is too large, exhaust gas velocity will be low, thereby weakening the scavenging wave and reducing its effect during valve overlap. As such, it is important to note that as blowdown pressure declines, there is an increased dependency on the exhaust system to scavenge cylinders of spent exhaust gases. Ideally, you want a balance between backpressure and velocity. Headers made of 1-3/4-inch pipe work well with stock and mildly modified V-Twin engines. To maintain the proper backpressure/velocity balance with a street engine, it is suggested not to use 2-inch diameter or larger header pipes unless your engine is at least 100 cubic inches and preferably larger. But be aware that even in the case of a large engine there are tradeoffs, because a 2-inch pipe will bleed off some bottom-end torque for top-end horsepower. For comparison's sake, to optimize high-rpm power with a 120ci to 130ci race-only engine, you should start with a 3-step straight-pipe design having 2-inch, 2-1/8-inch and 2-1/4-inch pipe diameters, and then tune from that baseline.
Larger diameters and shorter length header pipes optimize high-rpm operation, while smaller diameters and longer pipe lengths favor low-end power.
Although a stepped header generates more low-pressure waves than a non-stepped design, its waves are weaker. Steps help maintain a higher average gas velocity over the total length of header pipe. A stepped header won't necessarily make more power than a non-stepped pipe, but it can broaden the engine's torque curve by widening the scavenging wave's effect, which increases the time of negative depression. This can result in a win-win situation: High torque at low rpm while maintaining high horsepower at high rpm. Since the engine views a stepped header as a tapered pipe, the greater the number of steps in a length of pipe, the greater the taper angle and the stronger the pressure waves. But as the pipe angle increases, the rpm band it affects gets narrower. On the otherm hand, a longer pipe with fewer steps results in a narrower angle, thereby widening the working rpm range but lessening the strength of the pressure wave. Stepped headers are most beneficial when used on large-displacement and/or high-rpm engines.
-
Fullsak may be on to something. The 15 degree long slow collector chamber design coupled with the stepped header may in fact increase torque as well as HP providing the best of both worlds. But may also lend itself more towards the high revving engine designs. V&H design appears to have a much shorter collector with a much sharper angle. Based on this article, the Fullsak design may be a better overall performer. Alternatively, V&H no doubt has enormous R&D funds and has probably produced a very well designed and proven system. The non stepped V&H may in the end offer a better balanced torque curve for the everyday driver.
I'd love to see a comparison dyno on a stock CVO with both these systems.
-
Hey Guys!
The new X pipe is a torque monster. Specifically tuned for big fat heavy touring bikes.
I cut, welded, and dynoed this thing to death. Thats why there are two versions. "A" for 96". And "B for 110" motors
It will out perform an OEM non cat headpipe accross the board.
Dyno charts will be coming in the next few weeks.
Steve George
-
Hey Guys!
The new X pipe is a torque monster. Specifically tuned for big fat heavy touring bikes.
I cut, welded, and dynoed this thing to death. Thats why there are two versions. "A" for 96". And "B for 110" motors
It will out perform an OEM non cat headpipe accross the board.
Dyno charts will be coming in the next few weeks.
Steve George
B Version stock number? Availability? Shown on the website?
-
B Version stock number? Availability? Shown on the website?
See Reply #18 for a pic, rest of your questions can be addressed to Fullsac. Ask for Steve
info@fullsac.com
928.505.2912
-
B Version stock number? Availability? Shown on the website?
Sorry Russ, the website is lagging. I suck at marketing but I can weld pretty good.
Trying to get all the info and pics for the my web guy to update everything at once.
The 110" B version is in stock and available. CVO member price is 431.00
Thanks for your interest.
Steve George
-
Steve, great job on the headpipe. I have been wondering if you have any tuner maps using the new headpipe and other muffler setups with it?
-
Will the stock heat shields work with the fullsac headers?
-
infant,
I read in a earlier reply or thread that the OEM shields fit, in fact I think the headpipe was designed so they would.
-
The stock shields do fit. I put the pipes on my SESG. They look good, but due to weather I haven't been able to get a good pic yet of the pipes with shields on.
-
This Spring, I bought a 2005 FLHTCSE2 with Reinhart tru-duals. It had 23000 miles on it. The header from the rear cylinder has an "L" shaped tab that attaches to bracket on the starter. Mid-summer, I noticed the weld on the tab had cracked and I had an exhaust leak which I had re-welded. On a whim I sent an email to Reinhart and explained the problem and the mileage on the cycle. I received a box from them with a new pipe and starter bracket. The new pipe mount has a "L" tab held on by a pipe clamp instead of a weld. There was no email or information in the box and no bill. I have a friend who has a Road King who had the same problem. He notified the company and received a new header pipe. I don't know if this is typical customer service for this company; however, I was impressed.
I do like the sound of the Reinharts.
-
Is it true that true duals on the new FL bikes may cause a heat problem for some electrical component now placed behind the rear cylinder ?
-
Hey Guys!
The new X pipe is a torque monster. Specifically tuned for big fat heavy touring bikes.
I cut, welded, and dynoed this thing to death. Thats why there are two versions. "A" for 96". And "B for 110" motors
It will out perform an OEM non cat headpipe accross the board.
Dyno charts will be coming in the next few weeks.
Steve George
I am VERY interested in those dyno charts. Your offer of the two sizes has intrigued me from the start. There is no way one pipe can work with both engine sizes efficiently. Your A and B pipe selection instills confidence as regards performance. I see your main competitor might possibly but the V&H power duals. If you did a side by side dyno and outperformed them, I believe you'd have to expand your company.
I have a strong suspicion I'll be ordering a set of Fullsak X Pipes in my very near future. :2vrolijk_21:
-
Is it true that true duals on the new FL bikes may cause a heat problem for some electrical component now placed behind the rear cylinder ?
I haven't heard of any failures yet, but on 2009 & 2010 bikes the coil is located in front of the battery and directly behind the rear cylinder. The rear pipe of most "true dual" style pipes run very close to this area and likely increase the temperature of the coil. Most electrical devices live a shorter life when they have to function in high temperature environments. Maybe (hopefully?) the MoCo has "ruggedized" the coils to allow them to last longer at higher temperatures. If the coil dies though, you'll be walking. :(
-
Many of the new true duals for the 09 & 10's are routed same as the stock pipes, under the frame. For instance, look at the BUB and V&H site. They still offer older versions so look specifically for the new models.
-
I just got off the phone with Steve at Fullsac. He's shipping me a new x-pipe, 2" baffles, and TTS Mastertune today. :bananarock: :cucumber:
While we were talking he emailed a photo of the x-pipe with stock heat shields installed. He also gave me the OK to post the photo. I know that earlier in the thread someone was asking to see pictures, so here it is. As you can see, the pic is from the "backside", but you can tell that the pipe is almost entirely hidden by the heat shields. It looks very well camouflaged and tough (but not impossible) for anyone to be able to tell it from the stock pipe.
When I get the new stuff on the bike I'll post some pictures... 8)
-
The new X pipe is a torque monster. Specifically tuned for big fat heavy touring bikes.
My SESG sure doesn't feel fat with the 110! Since putting on the X with 2.0 baffles, it seem to have gotten a bunch lighter!
I still owe pics with the X pipe on the bike... hopefully the weather will cooperate. But I like the look, the black ceramic leaves less to reflect from the surrounding chrome (no bluing reflections!).
It may be a while before I can get over and have another snapshot done for charts, but I did get a baseline done before changing baffles and header.
-
I just got off the phone with Steve at Fullsac. He's shipping me a new x-pipe, 2" baffles, and TTS Mastertune today. :bananarock: :cucumber:
While we were talking he emailed a photo of the x-pipe with stock heat shields installed. He also gave me the OK to post the photo. I know that earlier in the thread someone was asking to see pictures, so here it is. As you can see, the pic is from the "backside", but you can tell that the pipe is almost entirely hidden by the heat shields. It looks very well camouflaged and tough (but not impossible) for anyone to be able to tell it from the stock pipe.
When I get the new stuff on the bike I'll post some pictures... 8)
When you go with your new pipes and tune are you going with o2 or no o2??
-
When you go with your new pipes and tune are you going with o2 or no o2??
The bike came with O2 sensors and along with the Mastertune (and related stuff) they provide a great way for a reasonably competent person to achieve a good tune -without the need for a dyno! And if you change anything on the bike -like new cams, ported heads/intake, etc. you have the ability to adjust the tune to correctly compensate for the changes. I'm definitely staying with the O2 sensors.
Here's a pic of the other side of the x-pipe. Kinda looks like what you would expect -it looks stock from this side.
Heh, heh, heh... 8)
-
I noticed that the fullsac x pipe is ceramic coated black on the outide of the pipe....any reason or purpose? And is that something like the Jet-Hot coating.
-
I noticed that the fullsac x pipe is ceramic coated black on the outside of the pipe....any reason or purpose? And is that something like the Jet-Hot coating.
The coating will prevent the pipes from rusting (at least on the outside), and (I think) helps to keep the exhaust heat inside the pipe. Looks nicer than a rusty pipe too.
I believe the ceramic coating is similar to Jet-Hot, but Steve at Fullsac would have to answer that one for us...
-
I did a lot of research on headers with no CATs for my FLHTCUSE5 Ultra. V&H advised me that their Dresser Duals were true duals, keep the stock look including crossing the pipe under the frame. Also they will run cooler on the engine than the stock headers or the Power Duals. Slight bump in power also. I do not like the X-Box look of the Power Duals.
-
I did a lot of research on headers with no CATs for my FLHTCUSE5 Ultra. V&H advised me that their Dresser Duals were true duals, keep the stock look including crossing the pipe under the frame. Also they will run cooler on the engine than the stock headers or the Power Duals. Slight bump in power also. I do not like the X-Box look of the Power Duals.
Depending on your riding style, you would probably not even notice any power gains/losses from one system to the next.
IMO get whatever system sounds/looks good to YOU. You will be the one putting all those miles on your bike.
Cooler running is a factor of tuning and getting rid of the cat under your right foot!
I agree with you on the "X-Box look" of power duals.
:2vrolijk_21: