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Custom Vehicle Discussions => Screamin' Eagle® Electra Glide® => Topic started by: justgary on July 07, 2006, 06:24:33 PM
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Hello, as some of you may know my wife just bought a 06 SEVROD. I have an 05 SEEG and I am looking for some performance upgrades (so I can keep up with her). I have been talking to some of my friends at the Harley Dealer and I am thinking about going with some cams. I am looking at the 203 vs. the 211 cams. Does anyone have any experience with these cams? Which cams would be best suited for my 103? Thank you
Gary
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Gary,
You must read these two threads....
REDSHIFT 575 CAMS & OTHER PRETTY PARTS (http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1144700310;start=all)
Freedom Cycles "Secret" FCC9 Cam Dyno (http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1148443054;start=all)
I personally went with the Zippers package, but you should be happy with either one as they were designed specifically for the 103 engines.
[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]
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Don't do the SE cams.....As Dood suggesteed see those threads above. Those cams are made specifically for the 103 Motors.
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Ok i am gonna chime in .... 251 or go outside of harley davidson. The 211 is a great cam for a lighter bike and it runs at higher rpm 3300 to about 5500 ... the 204 would be a btter choice if your stuck on the 203 but honestly it is too low for the 103 engine its better suited to an 88 or mild 95 ... but the 251 is the best choice if you have no mods otherwise the 257 if you like a bit higher rpm running. That is if you really must stick with harley cams. I have owned and run all the cams i listed above except the 257, but my buddy had the them in his classic.
If you want to stay chain driven cam, you should consider the Zippers 575 chain drive if your willing to think outside of the harley warranty then look into the 575 gear drive no more tensioners to worry about. I did the testing on the 575's with Zippers and Bragging Rights here in Florida and they rock pretty hard off the line and all the way up to 5500 rpm. Just ask some of the guys on this site who have no installed them.
You can pull the front tire off the ground with stock setup no head work easily in the first 2 gears. if you have any questions about it please feel free to email or pm me.
-harry
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I prefer the low end tourque over top end speed. I would like a happy medium between performance and durability. I would like to be able to cross country have plenty of power but not have to worry about a rebuild. In other words I would like a bit more performance but not necessarily looking for the wildest speed rush. So I guess I am looking for middle of the road performance. Im not ready to hit the drag strip yet and my wallet is just a bit lite. I tend to stay at the lower end of the RPM scale.
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Both of these cams (Zippers and Freedom's) provide low-end torque (check out the dyno sheets). As for reliability one of the reasons I went with gear drive was to get rid of one of the weak links in the stock set-up. There has been documented occurrences where there has been failure in the cam chain tensioners causing pieces of plastic to get in oil pump and causing bike to have no oil pressure. No oil pressure is not a good thing as you probably already know.
I had been researching cams for some time and because of problems with chain tensioners I knew I would be going with gear driven. I spoke with "wrench" that had built motor in my prior bike to find out what specs (maximum lift) I needed to stay within, and then started looking for cams. What I was finding that there wasn't really a "bolt in" cam that would produce what I wanted. Everything I was looking at would require some headwork, possible new pistons, throttle bodies, etc, etc. Like you I didn't want to do a motor rebuild or spend enormous amounts of money. Luckily I hadn't found anything that satisfied me before Zippers came out with there new cams. I mentioned to my "wrench" that Zippers was coming out with cams specifically for 103 motors and he recommended that Zippers products would be well worth my money.
Since the cams were out I opted to go with Feuling Oil Pump because of the additional oil pressure at idle. Again this was another addition to compensate for a weak link in the stock motor from the MoCo (stock oil pressure at idle is considerably low almost to the point of there not being any oil pressure measured on the gauge). At idle now I'm running about 30lbs +/- on oil pressure, and when cruising it will go up as high over 50lbs.
For me these upgrades were what I would consider middle of the road. They took care of some of the inherent problems these motors are known for, with an added performance plus. It wasn't as expensive as some of the things that I had seen out there, and didn't require the motor to be torn down. It didn't make my bike the fastest out there, but it sure makes it fun to ride, and you really get to feel the potential these motors have (just in case in the future you do want to take it to another level). The RPM range that the torque comes in on these cams is the normal operating range we ride in.
Not sure if you plan on installing these yourself, but if you are you can save some money there. Also if you interested in the Zippers cams, make sure you tell them you are a member of this website as we do receive a discount.
[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
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Gary,
Also let me add that I'm in no way bashing either of the cams you mentioned or H-D products (if you look here (http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?action=hpview;member=flhtcse2004) you'll see most of the accesories I've added to my scooter are from the MoCo). However I do think you will get more for your money going with either one of these packages then staying w/something the MoCo has. Have your mechanics look at the specs on the Zippers RED SHIFT 575TC CAM (http://www.zippersperformance.com/catalogue/showproduct.asp?cat=588&prod=2158) along with the dyno sheets from these cams that are in the thread I provided and see what they think. These cams are really new to the market (just introduced this summer) and they may not be aware of them.
[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]
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Thanks for the input fire - if you don't mind me asking how much were the cams? Gary
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PM sent.
[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]
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Thanks for the info firedood. Gives me lots to think about. Ride Safe
Gary
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Just had my 04 SEEG in this spring for new cams. The previous owner had SE 260s in with no other mods (bad!!). I was going to go with the zippers 575 but upon disassembly the wrench found that the cam plate was bad due a spun bearing. Thank god for the extendend warranty and a helpful dealer. I got new cams, cam plate, bearings and labor all for nuttin'. Only thing is I had to go with harley cams so the dealer suggested SE 211s. Bike runs great and I haven't even been in for the final tune. I would definitely recommend the 211s also I know alot of guys are fond of the 204s in 95" builds. Good luck.
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Yeah, 'er 'uh, garyteresa,
I was in total agreement with UnBaLaNcEd, until I read your subsequent post. The only difference being, riding habits. Clearly, Harry and I are Speed Junkies, while you are more on the conservative side, for now, anyway. That said, I would agree with Big Time, and suggest you go with the 211's. Later--HUBBARD
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Just had my 04 SEEG in this spring for new cams. [highlight]The previous owner had SE 260s in with no other mods (bad!!).[/highlight] I was going to go with the zippers 575 but upon disassembly the wrench found that the cam plate was bad due a spun bearing. Thank god for the extendend warranty and a helpful dealer. I got new cams, cam plate, bearings and labor all for nuttin'. Only thing is I had to go with harley cams so the dealer suggested SE 211s. Bike runs great and I haven't even been in for the final tune. I would definitely recommend the 211s also I know alot of guys are fond of the 204s in 95" builds. Good luck.
Yeah, 'er 'uh, Big Time,
Man, somebody was greener than a frog in that deal! How long did it take you to find it? I'd bet it was the first time you torqued the throttle! Later--HUBBARD
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Hubbard, the dude didn't know much. He didn't even know what cams were in it. I had to call the dealership in Chicago and get a copy of the invoice from the work that was done. This was after I bought the bike. I was suprised to say the least when I saw that there was 260s in there. I was even more surprise to see that he (they) had also added about everything out of the SE catalog,ie. roller rockers, forged rocker supports, lifters, forged pistons, studs,etc. It made 108 hp but sucked to say the least below 3500. Ride on!
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Hubbard, the dude didn't know much. He didn't even know what cams were in it. I had to call the dealership in Chicago and get a copy of the invoice from the work that was done. This was after I bought the bike. I was suprised to say the least when I saw that there was 260s in there. I was even more surprise to see that he (they) had also added about everything out of the SE catalog,ie. roller rockers, forged rocker supports, lifters, forged pistons, studs,etc. It made 108 hp but sucked to say the least below 3500. Ride on!
Huh? :-? With the Stock 103 Heads? What kind of Exhaust? Please advise. Later--HUBBARD
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Now I havent counted out the zippers just yet (Im not sure it is in my budget). Unballanced is recomending the 251 cam. Now taking the 203 or 204 out of the picture which is the better SE cam for the 103 the 211 or 251. I do not plan to make any other mods at this time (remember I just bought my wife an 06 SE VROD I am pretty much tapped out). Oh by the way thank you all for this information it is extreemly helpful in making an informed dicision. (don't want to be like the guy running 260's without any other mods ;) ). Thank you again
Gary
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I was in the same boat as you are in 211 or 251. My service advisor is a v-twin genious, he's built race motors at Tilley's and can build 100hp big bore motors (95") with 204 cams. He said that the 211 matches up with the port design on the 103 heads better than the 251 as far as filling the chambers better and faster. If you wait till next week I can get you a dyno sheet or at least some numbers to go by. I'm currently running V&H duals with SE Pro Touring slip-ons. Not the best for performance but it was the look I wanted. I'm thinking the D&D 2-1 might be in my future. I had Rineharts but I like big chrome things sticking out the back!
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Bigtime,
While he may be a genius the issue is the guy wants to ride low end and not 3500 to 5500 he wants torque down low and having owned this cam its a mid tier cam not a torque cam off the get go. What I pm'd him is if he is willing to go outside Harley the 575 will be a better choice as it has over 90 ft torque at 2000 and 97 at 2650 on a stock bike. The 211 wont even come close while it may and could have higher peak this is not what he asked me about. If you look at the intake and exhaust of the 575 vs the 251 you will find only small changes in where the intake opens and closes. If he were looking for more of the mid tier to higher end late acting cams the choice would be the 211 or the 258 if were considering staying with harley as the cam choice.
-harry
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[highlight]Now I havent counted out the zippers just yet [/highlight](Im not sure it is in my budget). Unballanced is recomending the 251 cam. Now taking the 203 or 204 out of the picture which is the better SE cam for the 103 the 211 or 251. I do not plan to make any other mods at this time (remember I just bought my wife an 06 SE VROD I am pretty much tapped out). Oh by the way thank you all for this information it is extreemly helpful in making an informed dicision. (don't want to be like the guy running 260's without any other mods ;) ). Thank you again
Gary
Gary save your money and let your wife stay in the lead(I know all about that). Even if you just put in a set a cams you will not keep up with that V ROD!!!!
I promise if you wait till you have the money you will be so happy with the Zippers product.
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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But can you run the zippers cams with no other mods to the engine?
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But can you run the zippers cams with no other mods to the engine?
Yes you can!!!!!!
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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Does anyone know the web site or phone number for zippers for ordering? How do I get the discount for being a member of this site?
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Does anyone know the web site or phone number for zippers for ordering? How do I get the discount for being a member of this site?
Just type in zippersperformance.com in your address bar. Great people to work with. When you talk to them on the phone, tell them you're looking for HORSEPOWER, and were told you would find it at Zipper's! Later--HUBBARD
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Does anyone know the web site or phone number for zippers for ordering? How do I get the discount for being a member of this site?
Phone 301-621-2311 x 107 the web site WWW.ZIPPERSPERFORMANCE.COM Tell them the DAWG sent you. And ask for your CVO website discount.
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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Thanks for all of your help. I've got some thinking to do and have to find some funds but I'll keep ya'll informed on what I finally decide to do.
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Thanks for all of your help. I've got some thinking to do and have to find some funds but I'll keep ya'll informed on what I finally decide to do.
Gary when you sit down and think about your decision you need to know a few things. The most important item to consider is that the TC575 Red Shift that Zippers developed was done so JUST FOR THE 103 CVO MOTOR. The motor in our bikes has a very low corrected compression ratio(around 8.7 to 1) The valve opening and closing timing is setup to raise the static pressures in the combustion chamber. This and the increased lift are 2 factors the raise the TQ curve to where it is with those cams. You will be very happy with this set of BOLT IN CAMS.
If you need to talk about this send me a PM with your contact info.
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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Phone 301-621-2311 x 107 the web site WWW.ZIPPERSPERFORMANCE.COM Tell them the DAWG sent you. And ask for your CVO website discount.
Be Safe
THE DAWG
DAWG, thanks for the great info [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]. I just got off the phone with Tony from Zippers Performance. Talked about TC575 Red Shift setup with the gear driven tensioners and TC88 Oil Bypass Shim. When I told him that The DAWG had recommended me, he knew all about you and us at FLHRSEI.ORG CVO website. He gave me a great price qoute and also told me who could do the work in my area.
Where did you get your Feuling Oil Pump from and what was the cost if you don’t mind me asking? Did you get the Feuling Super Pump or is there a difference from the Feuling Oil Pump?
I can say one thing about Zippers Performance, they are friendly, helpful and appear to have great customer service. That’s just from a ten minute phone conversation which I had with them today.
Thanks again DAWG 8-)
Ride Safe - Enjoy Each Ride [smiley=helmet.gif]
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DAWG, thanks for the great info [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]. I just got off the phone with Tony from Zippers Performance. Talked about TC575 Red Shift setup with the gear driven tensioners and TC88 Oil Bypass Shim. When I told him that The DAWG had recommended me, he knew all about you and us at FLHRSEI.ORG CVO website. He gave me a great price qoute and also told me who could do the work in my area.
Where did you get your Feuling Oil Pump from and what was the cost if you don’t mind me asking? How much more does it help your engine than the stock pump?
I can say one thing about Zippers Performance, they are friendly, helpful and appear to have great customer service. That’s just from a ten minute phone conversation which I had with them today.
Thanks again DAWG 8-)
Ride Safe - Enjoy Each Ride [smiley=helmet.gif]
05, as several of us have done this so far we've found it best (at least cheaper) to source the parts from two places. Everything from Zippers except the Feuling pump and lifters with those coming from Wally's Cycle. For whatever reason Wally's just kicks everyone's tail on price on the pump and lifters. Zippers recognized this when I was ordering. Said "no problem, we understand, thanks for what you're getting."
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Twolanerider, is Feuling Oil Pump and Feuling Super Oil Pump the same pump [smiley=confused5.gif] I have seen them called by both names. Does Feuling make a pump just for the 103 engine?
Ride Safe [smiley=helmet.gif]
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Twolanerider, is Feuling Oil Pump and Feuling Super Oil Pump the same pump [smiley=confused5.gif] I have seen them called by both names. Does Feuling make a pump just for the 103 engine?
Ride Safe [smiley=helmet.gif]
O5, what you want is the Feuling oil pump; also often called the Feuling Super Pump. What you do not want is the Feuling Race pump. Get the Feuling lifters too. When I got mine Wally's even had a combo special for the pair that was cheaper than the two things individually.
If someone is unsure whether they're selling you the "regular" Feuling oil pump or the race pump or not have them physically look at it. The race pump is red in color. You want the one that's not red.
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O5, what you want is the Feuling oil pump; also often called the Feuling Super Pump. What you do not want is the Feuling Race pump. Get the Feuling lifters too. When I got mine Wally's even had a combo special for the pair that was cheaper than the two things individually.
If someone is unsure whether they're selling you the "regular" Feuling oil pump or the race pump or not have them physically look at it. The race pump is red in color. You want the one that's not red.
[highlight]Twolanerider[/highlight]- great, thanks for the info and all your great help. Now I know what to ask for [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]!!
Ride Safe [smiley=helmet.gif]
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DAWG, thanks for the great info [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]. I just got off the phone with Tony from Zippers Performance. Talked about TC575 Red Shift setup with the gear driven tensioners and TC88 Oil Bypass Shim. When I told him that The DAWG had recommended me, he knew all about you and us at FLHRSEI.ORG CVO website. He gave me a great price qoute and also told me who could do the work in my area. .....Ride Safe - Enjoy Each Ride [smiley=helmet.gif]
They/Tony are great to work with. I also dealt w/him when I made my purchase. You will not be sorry about going w/this set-up. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Ride Safe,
Fired00d
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[smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]Ok I think I am sold on the zipper's cams. I am glad I took the time to post this or elese I could have ended up with the wrong cam. It will take me about 2-3 weeks to come up with the funds but I will keep yall informed being that you have been so helpful in my decision making. Thank you all so much for your time and information.
Gary
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Gary,
I am glad you came to a decision on what your doing. I know your going to be pleased with the results, please let us know when your done. I do have a question that no one has yet to bring up in the thread thus far.
How are you planning on tuning the bike after the cam swap no matter what cam you choose?
Race Tuner?
Thundermax from Zippers with maps?
Power Commander ?
Please let me know if you have any questions on this.
-harry
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I was planning on going with a race tuner. When all is done I would like to take both bikes and have them dynotuned. I know I need better exhaust to get peak performance I am currently running stock headers with wildpig slipons but I am looking at true duals in the near future. I figured a race tuner would allow me to make the gradual changes to ease my limited budget. Does this sound like I am on the right track?
Thanks Gary
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If you go with the racetuner I know I have a map, and i am sure Firedood has a map that you could put in that should get you really close till you get it tuned :)
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Fantastic!! ;D I will be sure to hollar at ya'll when I get it all in
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What's Tony's extension at Zipper's? I've got a couple questions that have gone unanswered in one phone call and two e-mails to another person there. Sounds like Tony's the one to talk to.
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What's Tony's extension at Zipper's? I've got a couple questions that have gone unanswered in one phone call and two e-mails to another person there. Sounds like Tony's the one to talk to.
Ext. 118
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Ride Safe,
Fired00d
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Thanks, Gary. I also just sent you a PM.