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CVO Technical => Drive Train => Topic started by: 04cvodan on January 09, 2012, 07:17:47 PM
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I'm about to find out from HD if and how much it will cost me to replace my stock 5 speed trans on my 2004 seeg. I was wondering if i can replace with a 6 speed? any info this post has will help. Iv had my seeg for about a year and LOVE my bike and CVOHARLEY.com thanks for any input
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I'm about to find out from HD if and how much it will cost me to replace my stock 5 speed trans on my 2004 seeg. I was wondering if i can replace with a 6 speed? any info this post has will help. Iv had my seeg for about a year and LOVE my bike and CVOHARLEY.com thanks for any input
There are complete six speed transmissions you can buy, and there are six speed gearsets you can buy and install in your stock transmission case. If your current trans case is good, the gearset will be less expensive. You aren't limited to what Harley sells; companies like Baker offer excellent alternatives.
Why are you replacing the trans, mechanical failure or you just want another gear ratio?
Jerry
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Did it on mine a couple of years ago. Harley makes a gear set that works with your existing case, but does require some machining. It's going to be about a $2,000 investment and you won't get a dime for it on trade, but if you don't mind that, the bike does like the extra gear on the highway, particularly if you have cams or other mods.
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Warranty Company saying neglect, so now HD saying 3400 out of the box just looking at my options. Can i just pull and replace or do i have to "open her up"?
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Warranty Company saying neglect, so now HD saying 3400 out of the box just looking at my options. Can i just pull and replace or do i have to "open her up"?
Either way will work as long as the original case is OK. The complete trans is $2800 MSRP from Harley, the gearset is $2100 MSRP. Of course the labor charges will be higher for the gearset versus the complete trans. Click on the attachment in my first post to blow it up; that is from the current SE catalog.
Jerry
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I put the Baker DD6 gear set in my 04. Best thing I ever did for it. It is a smooth shifting unit and neutral is very easy to find. No grinding and goes in pretty easily as long as you have the correct tools. If not have a good mechanic do the install. I really love mine. One of the main reasons I am still hanging onto the bike. I do 70 at 2600 and 80 at 3000. If I were to do it again, I would go with the Baker. :2vrolijk_21:
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Which Bakers did you use and did you do the gear set or the whole trans?
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I got the Baker DD6 installed in my 2006 SEUC this past spring and it's the best mod I've done, by far! The trip to Sturgis this year was so much more relaxed.
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Warranty Company saying neglect, so now HD saying 3400 out of the box just looking at my options. Can i just pull and replace or do i have to "open her up"?
Neglect? What happened?
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First inspection they say no oil in trans, just had service by a "buddy" a little over 5000 miles ago. I know a little long but damn. I just had $3500 worth of warrenty work done so HD saying they don't think they will pay for that but they will "fight for me" ya right. anyway thinking Baker dd6 on Ebay they say $2500 and install is free but they are 3 hours away in Daytona. I could allways do a trip to Daytona.
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This is what I'm looking at, will this work?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BAKER-DD6-SIX-SPEED-LSD-TRANSMISSION-HARLEY-DAVIDSON-FREE-INSTALLATION-/230726575821?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item35b86026cd
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I just replaced the gear set only. It comesvwith a nice chrome trap door and says dd6 on it comes as a kit with all you need. It's really a great unit. You can call them in Michigan and talk to them. They can answer any questions you might have.
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I just replaced the gear set only. It comesvwith a nice chrome trap door and says dd6 on it comes as a kit with all you need. It's really a great unit. You can call them in Michigan and talk to them. They can answer any questions you might have.
x2. Also, remember you will need the speedo calibration unit 95E-56, and I'd also opt for the upgraded High Torque bearing and spacer.
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First inspection they say no oil in trans, just had service by a "buddy" a little over 5000 miles ago. I know a little long but damn. I just had $3500 worth of warrenty work done so HD saying they don't think they will pay for that but they will "fight for me" ya right. anyway thinking Baker dd6 on Ebay they say $2500 and install is free but they are 3 hours away in Daytona. I could allways do a trip to Daytona.
So the tranny ground away on itself for several thousand miles without lube? That it lasted what would seem an extended amount of time doesn't surprise me really. How long did it run before you began to hear anything?
Was the "buddy" an actual shop or just a guy you know attempting to help out? If the former he should be on the hook for the repair. Of course knowing that and actually getting it are two different things. If the servicer was truly just a buddy you asked to work on the bike.... well..... that's one of the hazards we face when we asked buddies to do us a favor.
Sorry for the failure. That's a big one. As was mentioned above you've got several options if your tranny case survived in good order. It needs a very thorough inspection though. I had a transmission gear set fail in my 05 a few years ago. Around three years later started getting a leak through the case from a minute crack in the case that didn't start causing a problem until an adjacent oil pan bolt was disturbed.
Saving some coin with just a gear set change can be worthwhile. But the price difference between a gear set and a complete transmission (while not small) isn't so great that it justifies taking the risk of case related problems later if there's any doubt whatsoever.
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I guess my question is, wasn't there any drips on the garage floor? This gear lube just doesn't evaporate? Unless the knuckhead never put anything in after draining the old stuff? I'd definitely rope this turkey in for some answers!
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I bought the Bike in March and had "my Buddy" do the oil change thinking he knew what he was doing, He works on metric and was in need of some money so i thought that he would know that unlike Honda the trans has it own oil so i don't think he changed it and it burned up, no drips in the garage, Anyway today's up date, HD gave me two prices $3400 for a five speed installed and $4200 for a six speed installed. Still need to check on the Ebay Baker DD6 $2495, with free install so 1st question what eles will i need to order because if i go up to Daytona ( about 4 hours north)
I can't get delayed? grrrrrrr sometimes I'm to stupid to be this old
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I bought the Bike in March and had "my Buddy" do the oil change thinking he knew what he was doing, He works on metric and was in need of some money so i thought that he would know that unlike Honda the trans has it own oil so i don't think he changed it and it burned up, no drips in the garage, Anyway today's up date, HD gave me two prices $3400 for a five speed installed and $4200 for a six speed installed. Still need to check on the Ebay Baker DD6 $2495, with free install so 1st question what eles will i need to order because if i go up to Daytona ( about 4 hours north)
I can't get delayed? grrrrrrr sometimes I'm to stupid to be this old
Sorry but the tranny wouldn't "burn up" or otherwise fail just because it didn't get a fluid change. The same grade gear oils work in automotive manual transmissions or third members for, all too often, tens if not hundreds of thousands of miles. Our service intervals on the bikes are the result of an abundance of caution more than any real need when it comes to transmission fluid. If the failure was in any related to the service he drained it and didn't refill. Otherwise it "just broke." It can happen. It's up for the user to decide how likely that is in his own set of circumstances.
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Well I would'nt call it burned up but fourth is make funky noise and sometimes third makes the noise to. Really did'nt effect preformance just a wicked noise
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I understand that you have two Harley dealers there that are both under the same ownership and management, so telling you to just go to another dealer isn't much help. However, since I assume you have the ESP, were you aware that you don't have to go to the dealer for ESP service? There are a lot of independent shops that are also authorized to perform ESP repairs. If I were you, and thought there was even the most remote possibility that the dealership was trying to screw me over, I'd call the ESP company myself and ask them directly about coverage and a recommended shop. The prices those guys are quoting you are ridiculous, btw.
Jerry
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Jerry is it me or is that just for the case and not the gears, and yes i have been grabbing my ankles when ever i talk with Naples HD
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According to my source the bare housing is only around $400 ($397.49 MSRP) for the stock trans. The complete trans I highlighted is the housing and the gear set already assembled. You would reuse your sidecover and oil pan, and probably a few other pieces, but the big stuff is included in the trans assembly. Of course, availability might be a little iffy, since it's not a current part. I guess you could call a couple places and inquire.
Jerry
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Chit, I've got my stock 5spd gearset I'll sell reasonably. Where in the heck did these bozo's come up with that quote? Must be related to the Rossmeyers?
I doubt there is anything wrong with the housing.
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I have a 5 speed gear set from my 04 if anyone can use. I would sell it reasonably also.
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Warranty Company saying neglect, so now HD saying 3400 out of the box just looking at my options. Can i just pull and replace or do i have to "open her up"?
I think my first action would to the warranty company - "prove I failed to maintain my trans"
You ran it with no oil for 5000 miles? It will have evidence of overheated components. Did the dealer measure the measly 20-24 ounces of fluid that comes out of the trans when you drain it?
And shame on your dealer for even raising a flag on this.
I think my first question though is, who is the warranty company? Is it the Harley program purchased from Harley through a dealer or is it an aftermarket program that the dealer is selling that has no affiliation with Harley?
Just some thoughts to ponder.
You could just have the trans rebuilt stock.
If you go with the SE 6 speed gear set there are mods done to he trans case that are irreversible, e.g. you have to grind away portions of the case that are needed for the stock gear set.
You will end up with a 6 speed that has no increased value for trade in (up to you if that is important). That also means you end up with one of the many just about useless 5 speed gear sets that are laying around.
There are probably a couple dozen of us that have those 5 speed sets in our garage/basements.
If you go with the the Baker DD6 you always have the option of putting the stock 5 spd gear set back in if and when you go to trade in the bike (although not in your case unless you buy someone's used set). Then you will have the satisfaction that you are not losing on the trade but end up with a 6 speed gear set that you may never sell. Although, just as there will always be a market for older bikes, there will always be a market for parts. And in this case, my guess is that there is a potentially bigger market for a drop in 6 speed.
The Baker option also gives you the option of different comp sprockets sizes. You can go with the standard set which will keep your overall ratio (and 1st) close to what you have now, with the addition of a DD 6th you can drop the comp sprocket down 1 or 2 steps, effectively lowering (higher numerically) the overall ratio.
The DD6 will give you about a 400 rpm drop in 6th, 1 size down gives you about a 200 rpm drop and 2 steps gives about 0 rpm change in 6th.
After a year of using mine I dropped one size. The 200 rpm drop in 6th is nice but I like the overall ratio now better. It is better suited for the way I ride in the mountains. Prior to to the change I was constantly hunting for the right gear in the 2-3-4 range. After the drop I found I was much closer to the rpm range I wanted to be in to match my "comfort" speed.
But, back to the first question, who is the warranty company. And before you spend any money I would strongly suggest you research and read the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act, literally an act of congress, that protects consumers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
It is incumbent on the warranty company to prove you failed in maintenance, not the other way around. It is this same law the does not require you to use the services of a selling dealer or to even keep receipts of maintenance.
Been there and done all that, on both sides of the equation.
And don't worry about pissing off the dealer, sounds like you should be looking for a new dealer anyway.
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If you do have to pay, sounds like a trip to Deb's Garage might be in order. That is an excellent price for an installed trans.
EasternPC (eBay) sells the kit for 2295, free shipping, and then it has to be installed.
At $2500 installed it sounds like they are making very little on the parts markup but covering labor. Either way a good deal giving the options.
One more benefit you get with the DD6, because the comp sprocket is changed with this kit, you get better starter torque when starting up the bike.
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But, back to the first question, who is the warranty company. And before you spend any money I would strongly suggest you research and read the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act, literally an act of congress, that protects consumers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
It is incumbent on the warranty company to prove you failed in maintenance, not the other way around. It is this same law the does not require you to use the services of a selling dealer or to even keep receipts of maintenance.
MMWA applies to manufacturer's original warranties. After the fact servcice contracts can and do have their own terms.
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MMWA applies to manufacturer's original warranties. After the fact servcice contracts can and do have their own terms.
I beleive that depends on who what where and how.
If the ESP, warranty, service contract, whatever it is called is the Harley branded item, then it is covered.
State laws also come itno play. NJ for all it's faults has some pretty strong insurance and banking regulations.
A "service contract" is different from a warranty because service contracts do not affirm the quality or workmanship of a consumer product. A service contract is a written instrument in which a supplier agrees to perform, over a fixed period or for a specified duration, services relating to the maintenance or repair, or both, of a consumer product. Agreements that meet the statutory definition of service contracts, but are sold and regulated under state law as contracts of insurance, do not come under the Act's provisions.
Disclaimer or Limitation of Implied Warranties when a service contract is sold:
Sellers of consumer products who make service contracts on their products are prohibited under the Act from disclaiming or limiting implied warranties. (Remember also that sellers who extend written warranties on consumer products cannot disclaim implied warranties, regardless of whether they make service contracts on their products.) However, sellers of consumer products that merely sell service contracts as agents of service contract companies and do not themselves extend written warranties can disclaim implied warranties on the products they sell.
But, I think I have now steered away form the original question far enough :nixweiss:
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Another thought regarding installing the Baker DD6 gearset is, Baker generally offers decent install deals at the major shows. At least then, you know it's installed by knowledgable folks.
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I've see Baker at daytona a few times doing installs also. Make sure to contact them for an appointment. I'm sure they can get it done faster than anyone else too. I was out on mine last night. Nothing beats a Baker. :2vrolijk_21:
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Just curious, what makes a Baker better than an SE-6?
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the baker has 6th gear 1-1 much like the cruise drive - it comes with a larger compensator sprocket to make 1st the same as it was
a trans is always most efficient at 1-1 ratio
to
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To sum it up, SMOOTH!!
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Bakers rule !
:2vrolijk_21:
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I'm thinking of replacing the 5-speed transmission on my new (to me) 2005 FLHTCSE2. The engine/transmission setup is barely has 20k miles, so I'm not fixing a problem, just thinking of upgrading from 5-speed to 6-speed. I have available to me a 6-speed HD gearset from an 07 Bagger, Street Glide, I think. In nice shape. The number on the piece that holds both shafts, ( I don't know what it is properly called) is 35053-06. The number below it is a little difficult but appears 1PE15383.
I would sure be pleased if I could just swap out the one for the other. How close am I to being able to do that?
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Found this on ebay , guy in Arizona has other 6 speeds and 5 speeds as well. The guys here will have to tell you of this one would work as I dont know.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291333454788?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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I'm thinking of replacing the 5-speed transmission on my new (to me) 2005 FLHTCSE2. The engine/transmission setup is barely has 20k miles, so I'm not fixing a problem, just thinking of upgrading from 5-speed to 6-speed. I have available to me a 6-speed HD gearset from an 07 Bagger, Street Glide, I think. In nice shape. The number on the piece that holds both shafts, ( I don't know what it is properly called) is 35053-06. The number below it is a little difficult but appears 1PE15383.
I would sure be pleased if I could just swap out the one for the other. How close am I to being able to do that?
Tranny parts from the 07 won't fit your 2005. The newer original equipment six speeds aren't interchangeable with the prior stock five speeds.
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I sure appreciate the directness and clarity of your response. Thank you. Better news would have been nice....... but it is what it is.
Is Baker the way to go, then, or is there something else to consider?
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Here is a used Jim's 6 speed from a 2000 Ultra, there again maybe Twolane or one of the guys could shed light on figment and or quality of a Jim's tranny. This guy has a ton of trannies.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5001-2000-00-01-Harley-Touring-Ultra-Jims-6-Speed-Overdrive-Transmission-/311226995788?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item487693144c
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Here is a used Jim's 6 speed from a 2000 Ultra, there again maybe Twolane or one of the guys could shed light on figment and or quality of a Jim's tranny. This guy has a ton of trannies.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5001-2000-00-01-Harley-Touring-Ultra-Jims-6-Speed-Overdrive-Transmission-/311226995788?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item487693144c
Still no joy. 99-01 are different also. Different diameter pivot shaft for the swingarm connection and the primary bolt pattern changed from the later bikes. For the 05 the fitment from other touring models will be 2002-2006. There are kits out there that suggest interchange from 1990-2006 but that is internals only. Even they suggest they are a (mostly) direct replacement up through 1999 and that some "minor modifications" are necessary on the later bikes within their fitment matrix.
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Is Baker the way to go, then, or is there something else to consider?
If you're certain you've decided to make the change there are lesser expensive kits you'll find if you look. Personally I'd not recommend them. In the admittedly small sample size I've seen them used I've seen a failure rate higher than I'm comfortable with. The HD 6 speed kits are another option as are the Baker kits. Either have offered gear kits or complete transmissions.
Having installed both in 04 and 05 SEEGs my first question would be why you're considering this? The gearing on these bikes actually matches up pretty well for highway speeds (unlike, for example, the early SERGs that left you noticeably and uncomfortably higher RPM at highway speed). If the engine on your 05 has been touched up such that its torque curve is higher and/or appreciably longer I could understand wanting to make the six speed change. Aside from that, however, the gearing matches the torque curve of the 103 pretty well right out of the box. And for Willie's sake don't buy in to any notion of fuel economy improvements or other ancillary reasons for spending all the money it'll take to put in a six speed. That equation will never work out in your favor and there is no (zero, nada, zilch) economic justification for making the change. It's solely to improve the ride-ability of the machine.
The other justification, of course, is separate from the bike or its ride-ability. There is always the "just because I want to, dammit." That one never makes any sense for the wallet but has its own justifications... :drink:
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I was going to get a Baker Direct Drive 6 speed gearset. I talked to baker and they told be the gearset would not be warranties
with 120HP / 125TQ. They recommend the Over Drive gearset.
I have Rivera Primo O.D. gearset. With over 50,000 miles and no problems. A friend of mine has over 125,000 miles on his with two motor rebuilds but no problems on transmission
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The Indy bike shop I deal with has seen S.E. and Baker gearset
fail. I have seen the damage to both gearsets. The Rivera gearset is a lot more beffy gears. He has not had to warranty any of there's yet. Flash was impressed with it over the others. It's the only one he recommends to High HP Harley
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The Indy bike shop I deal with has seen S.E. and Baker gearset
fail. I have seen the damage to both gearsets. The Rivera gearset is a lot more beffy gears. He has not had to warranty any of there's yet. Flash was impressed with it over the others. It's the only one he recommends to High HP Harley
I've seen failures in the Baker and SE gear kits also. In the SE kits behind mid to larger built engines often enough to make me uncomfortable anymore. Just not as bad as the cheap off shore kits. Not sure I've ever had the Rivera branded kit in hand though. Probably need to see one up close and personal to recognize it.
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The Indy bike shop I deal with has seen S.E. and Baker gearset
fail. I have seen the damage to both gearsets. The Rivera gearset is a lot more beffy gears. He has not had to warranty any of there's yet. Flash was impressed with it over the others. It's the only one he recommends to High HP Harley
I installed a DD6 in a new 06 Street Glide with a built 103. Took about 6000 mile and lost 6th gear. Dealer pulled tranny called Baker and they had a new one a couple days later. Don't know how many miles are on that tranny now, but when I parted with the bike it was a little over 60,000 and was the best money I spent on that bike. Own a 09 now and run the DD7. Been very please with Baker and would recommend both trannys.
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Jim S. (HD-Dude) did my Baker 6 speed and I couldn't be any happier. Sometimes I still forget I have 6 speeds, especially on the freeways. Then I up shift and smile.
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If money is tight get the ultima 6 speed, last time I checked these were about $600 and stand up to the 127 a couple of buddies of mine are running them, no issues. I have the baker DD6 and have had a few problems with it behind my 127" they claim it's only good for 125 hp which seems about right, the Ultima on the other hand seems to be able to handle more than that. Not sure what fitment years they make, it's worth checking out.
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I've seen failures in the Baker and SE gear kits also. In the SE kits behind mid to larger built engines often enough to make me uncomfortable anymore. Just not as bad as the cheap off shore kits. Not sure I've ever had the Rivera branded kit in hand though. Probably need to see one up close and personal to recognize it.
What trans was it that twisted up your shorts?
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What trans was it that twisted up your shorts?
Acme.
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Acme.
Com'on now, I was referring to your lock up experience.
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Com'on now, I was referring to your lock up experience.
Oh, years ago? My own was the SE 6 speed. That was a suddenly interesting ride that day... ???
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Oh, years ago? My own was the SE 6 speed. That was a suddenly interesting ride that day... ???
I probably think of your experience at least once a week when riding, sometimes daily.
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I probably think of your experience at least once a week when riding, sometimes daily.
That's more often than I do. But it does occasionally come to mind. That was a good pair of underwear got ruined that day.....
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I am pulling out my 5 for a 6. redid my motor a couple of year ago I have a 107 hp and 116 torque and could really use another gear. I have it in right now installing an ultima 6 several of my frinds have had them for a few years now trouble free so I will give it a try. and will probably us bellray 80/90 gear lube always runs quiets with it. let you know when its done
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Ok got my ultima 6 speed on have a few hundred miles so far and love it. quieter in high gear rpms are about 450 lower than before and easy finds neutral whe I want to park factory five speed has never worked so good. and I do believe the stuff now that I read about ultima vs baker. it the exact same gear set bout from the same Korean factory and identical ratios. well worth it.
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and I do believe the stuff now that I read about ultima vs baker. it the exact same gear set bout from the same Korean factory and identical ratios. well worth it.
Can you document that?
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Ok got my ultima 6 speed on have a few hundred miles so far and love it. quieter in high gear rpms are about 450 lower than before and easy finds neutral whe I want to park factory five speed has never worked so good. and I do believe the stuff now that I read about ultima vs baker. it the exact same gear set bout from the same Korean factory and identical ratios. well worth it.
Would be interested in a citation on the gear sets OE also. Other thing I'm curious about is what issue was the wider bearing plate? How close does that get the side cover to the exhaust? Was the fab on the exhaust bracket any more involved than just widening the slot? Anything else you can think of that was impacted by the installation? Also a pic of the installed parts showing the side of the tranny and how close the exhaust is would be great. Thanks for any insights.