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[snowrider13]

What are the advantages (if any) of tuning with wide band sensors vs narrow band. Bike is a 110 with fullsac head pipe 12mm bungs and 2" cvo cores with screens. Looking for a proper tune, had a local fella tell me he perfers to "tune" with the wide band. This bike is used for riding not bragging rights, just looking to remove the decell pop, cool it a bit, and correct the speedo and idle speed. Currently using VIED's which helped a bit, but not like a tune. Haven't made my mind up as to which tuner to use TTS, PV, or SERT, looking to educate myself more with the wide vs narrow band issue first.

[CVO Couple]

A wide band can measure air fuel ratios over a wide range say 10:1 to 18:1 A narrow ban only can sense or know what to do in a certain small range say 14:1 to 15:1 Most stock engine with factory ECM programs have narrow band. An auto tune or self adjusting system would have the wide ban.

[kustomhd66]

..Lot of talking with for this matter. Is it "wide band" really wide band?
I think Mr Cole TTS is best man to make comment for this.

Ride On

[grc]

The gentleman's comment about preferring to tune with wide band needs a lot more explanation.  You probably should have asked him to explain exactly what he meant, versus ask the forum.

I would certainly hope if he is doing dyno tunes he has wide band (broad band) sensors on his equipment (exhaust sniffers).  Or did he mean he prefers the bike itself have wide band sensors?  And if that's the case, why? 

Btw, the stock ECM is a "self-adjusting" system, and it uses what is being called narrow band sensors.  Do a little reading on how a stock closed loop system works.

Jerry

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Well we do tune and we use both. The narrow band works very well for leaner afr range where as to use it to calculate a Open loop afr valve it is not going to be as accurate. 
SE pro tuner will allow you tune the entire map with both closed loop afr valve and open loop. However it can only read with a certain range out side of that range it is a calculating a valve. Sounds good in theory.. But then other things get in the way and you have a tune that is great in some areas not in others.

Now use a wide band to tune the entire range and you can get the same thing so to speak in reverse. 

The issue in a nustshell is that say a VE number of 95 = 14.5 afr so the math says to reach 13.5 afr you add 20 units of fuel.  Thats math then there is the real world and that does not always work..

SO narrow band for light throttle cruise idle and wide band for 80% and up areas.

As I said we use both

[snowrider13]

He prefers the bike to have the sensors which will have to be added ( i should have thought ahead). His reasoning was to be able to do a better tune. I have also heard that it can be tuned with only narrow band but you are operating blind and it takes longer. I understand the stock system( I think), just looking for more info so I don't make the wrong decision. Thanks

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Well if you are using stock sensors to tune with and they are correctly located you are not blind, as you can watch the Front and rear 02 integrator to see what the range is. ( SE pro look for 97/98- 101/102 )  It does not take long in fact the stock sensor is extremely fast and more accurate than a std wide band. But its limitations come back to that it is great a doing a small range. 

My issue is that most guys that tune with wide band will target say 13.0 or 13.2 fine you get the ve number to give you that AFR number. Then they take the target afr and change it to a leaner value , NOW that is where the issue pops up. The

The wide band has a margin of accuracy , I use test gas but most shop do not so the sensor can rear a few tenths off from the start the data collected may be some accurate but maybe its Rich and then the target afr gets changes and now its really not at 14.3 but 13.9 .. SO in the end why not use the stock sensor where it works and a wide band where it works best and then while tuning you see the wide band reading also plus the 02 integrator as well .

When I tune I run twin bands that read live data into my win pep 8 screen along with watching live data from the narrow band ( stock) from the ecm

[FLTRI]

The OEM narrow band sensors are very fast reacting and precise for a range of 14.2-15:1.
By putting the entire calibration in a version of "closed loop" (for ease of understanding) SEPST and PV will tune to 100%/100kpa whereas Steve Cole (TTS) tells me will not due to his concern tuning above 80kpa @ 14.2-14.6 is too lean to use for high performance/compression builds.

There's a lot of opinions concerning the 2 philosophies. I personally have had no issues with either method but I have the equipment to measure both narrow band and wide band sensors on the Dyno.

For those who are street tuning either method is usable for most all mild builds with exhaust systems that promote proper O2 signalling. That is the key to getting good results from any tuning method.

It is very easy to determine O2 signalling issues with a Dyno equipped with the proper measuring tools. street tuners do not have the luxury of this equipment so they must rely/assume signalling is ok...until they have issues with their data gathering during V-tune/Smartune/autotune when they come back to generate a new calibration.

I find SEPST/PV to be a bit closer end cal than TTS simply because TTS calculates/estimates the >80kpa whereas the others actually measure the O2 sensors >80kpa and calculate from that hard data.

I've also found either method works fine for very mild builds but TTS leaves a bit on the table for >80kpa VEs calculated to 100kpa/TP as applied to larger ci, more performance enhanced builds especially with high overlap cam timing and compression along with free flowing exhaust.
Bob

[98fxstc]

I find SEPST/PV to be a bit closer end cal than TTS simply because TTS calculates/estimates the >80kpa whereas the others actually measure the O2 sensors >80kpa and calculate from that hard data.

I've also found either method works fine for very mild builds but TTS leaves a bit on the table for >80kpa VEs calculated to 100kpa/TP as applied to larger ci, more performance enhanced builds especially with high overlap cam timing and compression along with free flowing exhaust.
Bob

What about the changes to the way auto-extend works in VTune3 ?
My take is that the new incremental method for extending VE's is an attempt to pick that up
as well as making it safer to extend

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Its a calculated number.. for the TTS

[hrdtail78]

It's all calculated.  PV and SE target 14.7 for mapping and then calculate down to 13 or whatever target it's going to be ran at.  TTS calculates from the 85 kpa on out.

Like it was said above.  They both have their places.  The narrow band is a more accurate, fast response time sensor.  The range it can read accurate in is small.  It is fast enough to read every cylinder firing cycle.  Wide bands are not as accurate but read in a bigger range.  The response time is slower and the fastest it can sample is 4 times a second.

In normal cruise riding.  Accuracy and speed is important.  The stock ECM reads once every firing cycle.  We want a tighter tolerance of AFR in this range.  WOT or 90 and 100kpa areas have a bigger AFR range tolerance.  It isn't read every cylinder firing cycle and besides tuning.  This area is using the set VE table for AFR.

So, it isn't a vs thing of one is better than the other.  They both work great for intended application.

BTW  TTS will allow you to tune with NB and WB sensors at the same time.  Doing it yesterday at 37 frames a second.  No other tuner will come close to this.
 

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

that is using the TTS green tuner BTW .. Not the std blue tuner that most buy

[tjwallib]

Newbie poster on the forum, but have been reading for some time now.

Also a user of TTS for 3 years doing "street tuning" on my 07 Ultra, now with a 120 engine built out of Headquarters heads, pistons, cams etc,,,Darkhorse bottom end and with HPI 55 throttle body.

Question for the folks that do it tuning a living. Knowing that TTS calculates the VEs above 85KPA using the NB sensors, what differences have you found in VE values from the TTS calculated values compared to values derived from WB.

Just curious, as I run my bike with a very small area of "Closed Loop" with a fairly significant CLB that takes it down to just above 14.2, but most of the AFRs outside the small " cruising range, I've plugged in my own numbers taking into the account of CLB done with VTuning.

So again, just curious what the folks with WB sensors are finding on the dyno as a difference between TTS calculated VEs in the high KPAs and then, wondering what the difference is/was on HP and Torque output between TTS calculated VEs and WB derived VEs.

Am I really missing out on all that much, or are we talking about a difference of 5% or less.
Hope all of the above makes sense.

[FLTRI]

...I've plugged in my own numbers taking into the account of CLB done with VTuning.

Am I really missing out on all that much, or are we talking about a difference of 5% or less.
Hope all of the above makes sense.

IMO street tuning a stage 1 bike is perfectly fine and safe.
Tuning a big 120" build where combustion temps can go extremely high in a very short period of time, is not a good idea.
You've spent a ton to get this big engine so get it to a qualified tuner who has experience tuning these engines and get it done right.
This will happen without toasting the rings from lean running and high combustion temps from guessing at fueling and timing and street tuning attempts.
There are many variables that can show up with bigh inch builds with aggressive cam timing and free flowing exhaust systems that do not have the O2 sensors located properly for accurate sampling.
As always, JMHO,
Bob

[tjwallib]

Bob,
Thanks for the reply.

I guess my question is more academic than "real life", as the build has/is being tuned by the builder.

I do end up changing the "cruise range" on the tune as I try to tweak that area to improve mileage in low load small closed loop cruising areas without creating heat issues etc,,,,. I always keep the original tune so I can revert back to what was done on the dyno.

There is part of me that wants the bike tuned using the bike's own 02 sensors instead of "outside WB" sensors, my mind set is I want the VEs set using what the bike's ECM see's from it's own sensors. Let's face it, those settings on VE is what the bike is going to be working with the majority of the time. I know that each bike is different for what it wants in AFR settings to make best power and most of all "drivability".

So again, just wondering what folks that do this for a living have found for a "difference" between the TTS calculated VEs in higher (above 80-85kpa) areas and what they find using WB sensors in that area and what might be "left on the table" using just the bike's narrow band calculated values.
Tom W.

[FLTRI]

...So again, just wondering what folks that do this for a living have found for a "difference" between the TTS calculated VEs in higher (above 80-85kpa) areas and what they find using WB sensors in that area and what might be "left on the table" using just the bike's narrow band calculated values.
Tom W.

No substitute for high KPA/TB tuning with the OEM or broadband sensors rather than mathematically extending to 100 KPA.
TTS does not allow for tuning those areas to 14.2-14:6 using the OEM sensors. SEPST and PV do allow for this tuning.
For that reason I have found tuning to high KPA/TB with SEPST and PV to net a more accurate AFR target control of that area.
Bob
Bob

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Sure you can tune there with it but more accurate is something comes into plat like horse shoes.A wide band is the best to get the correct amount of accuracy vs some what close.. Now with that said I am not talking about tuning a stock cammed engine with slip on mufflers

[FLTRI]

Sure you can tune there with it but more accurate is something comes into plat like horse shoes.A wide band is the best to get the correct amount of accuracy vs some what close.. Now with that said I am not talking about tuning a stock cammed engine with slip on mufflers

Steve,
Are you saying a high performance build cannot be accurately tune 80+KPA/WOT to 14.2-14.4 using the OEM sensors?
Ive found very precise results. That said, the tuner MUST BE VIGILANT with temperatures the bigger the builds.
I have found no issues setting high KPAs to 14.2-14.4 AFR and tuning to that target. On big builds I only tune the high load/rpm cells to that target one at a time then let the temps cool for the next row of cells.
Then set the targets to 13.0-13.5, or whatever and verify the AFR come out as targeted.
Bob

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

No you and I have had this discussion, Better to tell you how I do it. I run the ve tune smart tune whatever system let it do its thing. With Win 8 I am lucky to see both wide bands at the same time live , so I then make the changes in opeb loop based on my wide bands.. Yes it will get it close but its not a 100% accurate way to do it. As I also feel that tuning to say 13.2 and then raising the afr to say 14.3 is another way to have inaccurate ve numbers also.. well AFR as the VE is nothing per say.


We all have witnessed where you take a VE number that is spot on accurate for a given AFR and then change it +/- a complete afr point and it does not always hit that target.

Yes we can go into the why but it really does not matter for the end user..

[hrdtail78]

SE tuners don't let you target an AFR of 14.3 for mapping of VE at 100kpa.  It allows you to put in the smart tune cal which is 14.6.

[FLTRI]

SE tuners don't let you target an AFR of 14.3 for mapping of VE at 100kpa.  It allows you to put in the smart tune cal which is 14.6.

[Puma]

  I know I made a good decision when I let the pros work on my bike.