Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[RonandJanet]

mongenix, My dealer is pretty good and I can speak to the tech and have a good discussion about the issue. I know when I first got mine I thought the clutch was out of adjustment as well. But the dealer showed that it was the same as other bikes.   I paid a lot of attention to the clutch going home and back to work this morning. This is subjective of course but I would say it begins to engage at about 75% out. It took me a little while to used to it and learn how to "feather" the clutch as well. I do a lot of riding in town (going to work) and I have to work the clutch a lot. I don't even notice it any more. I am pretty sure there are no adjustments on these clutches but as I mentioned earlier there were (are) recalls.  If the dealer still says it is normal ask to ride another one for comparison.  Good luck and let us know what happens.

[twinotter]

If it where mine, I'd do a complete rebleed, and retry. If its the same, I'd then remove the lever, check to see that the piston is travelling all the way out. If it is and there is no play in the lever, you may be able to introduce a little by filing the contact point where it meets the piston. Even a little freeplay with the piston fully extended would move the engagement point in towards the grip. To be effective the piston must be at full extension, or it would pump back up and fix nothing! I'd remove only a few .000's at a time from the lever and recheck.
With quality control going the way it has at HD, it wouldn't surprise me that the levers vary, the piston travel varies etc,etc. They seemed to be a  to make two or more parts the same at one time, now they are reverting to no two alike, just like back in the 40's, where most had to hand fitted or shimmed.  JM2C FWIW   Buffalo

[grc]

Not sure why everyone thinks dealer techs should know a problem. Most of them are self taught, they do not own high end bikes (or cars) and ride a dozen different bikes a day that have cable clutches adjusted every which way and hydraulic ones that release further out as a rule, so one a little further out... why would that set off a bulb for them. Also they only get paid to do or repair whatever they are assigned the bike for, diag work does not pay unless authorized and they are working for a living.
Anyone who has ever worked at a car/boat/bike dealer know the public is a pain and wants eveything for free and gradually over time you quit caring and only do what you have to to get by. Not good but the way it is.

So what you're saying is that all that talk and advertising about "factory trained technicians" is just a bunch of hooey?  Damn, now I'm feeling used and abused, and may have to go lay down and take a nap.

What you described is very common in many Harley dealerships unfortunately.  Those are the places I expect a good manufacturer to crack down on, but I don't see any sign of it happening with H-D.

As for the clutch issue, it's no longer necessary to have a CVO to have a hydraulic clutch.  They made hydraulic clutches standard in 2014 on all fairing equipped Touring models, so service departments should be very familiar with them these days.

Jerry

[FullBagger]

Not sure why everyone thinks dealer techs should know a problem. Most of them are self taught, they do not own high end bikes (or cars) and ride a dozen different bikes a day that have cable clutches adjusted every which way and hydraulic ones that release further out as a rule, so one a little further out... why would that set off a bulb for them. Also they only get paid to do or repair whatever they are assigned the bike for, diag work does not pay unless authorized and they are working for a living.
Anyone who has ever worked at a car/boat/bike dealer know the public is a pain and wants eveything for free and gradually over time you quit caring and only do what you have to to get by. Not good but the way it is.

Wow, to expect an HD tech to understand a hydraulic clutch system and tell me why the ones on the showroom engage in a different place than mine? Not just a little different either, a freeking he11 of a lot.
Boy, am I an a$$.

Look, I understand the public is a pain but I even told them I would pay for their time to look into it ....... nothing.
I even told them that if needed, I would pay to have the system replaced! It is that bad!

Now I am looking for a non HD mechanic to see if they can help.

I am easy to get along with (my wife might argue that point) but I can never get any solid advice or help from HD about anything I have ever asked a tech or manager. It's like a dear in the headlights.....Even when I offer to pay for their time.
Change oil  .... cool
Trans oil ..... no problem
Tire change ---- good to go
Why does my primary sound like it is about to come apart ....... duh???
It's like they do not want to say the wrong thing and get in trouble. It is what it is man! Just tell me how to fix it!

[NMLazz]

2014 CVO RK here...I noticed my clutch releases late too and was wondering if that was a problem. I'll be interested to hear the result of yours.

Please keep us posted.

[FullBagger]

Update:
Bled the clutch. Helped a little bit but still not where it "should be". It is, however, tolerable. It was not before they bled it.
What I mean by "should be" is anywhere between 20% and 80% lever release. Mine is still at about 85% before it engages.
I have it in the shop for full exhaust and tune. They said they would bleed them again to see if it improves even more. I will post again after the second bleed.

The brakes are now starting to surge. A warped rotor I suspect.

NMLazz, have the clutch bled, it may help yours. At least I hope so!

[RonandJanet]

I hope it does get a lot better for you. Unfortunately after the next bleeding of the brakes you may not see as much of a gain.  I think that for the hydraulic clutches you will not get the feel and release as the cable clutches provided. I hope it does get a lot better for you.

How many miles do you have and do you have ABS?  I have had some hard stops and with the ABS kicking in it is a lot harder to warp the rotors then it used to be due to ABS. I would think the rotors would not warp very easily until they get worn down a lot.

It will be interesting to see what you find out on both items.

[FullBagger]

Nope. No difference.
Clutch is still about 85% released before the bike starts moving. Yes, it does engage a little earlier than that but not enough to get the bike moving. Just reduce engine rpm a little.

I know it will never be like a cable system but I would think it would be within the ballpark of the other 10+, 2014/15 hydraulic clutch bikes I have owned and tested.
All are different but many times the bike surprises me with how late it engages. I pull in the clutch, toe down on the shift lever, and look for the "N" to see if I am in neutral! I still do this sometimes after 6000 miles. I would think I'd be used to it by now..... I'm not.

Just as a note, my glove size is XXL so it's not a reach issue and it's my third full dresser.

If this system is truly not adjustable, can the individual part specifications be so far off that mine is no where near center? How about some quality control folks?
 
I'm beating a dead horse here.
If anyone knows a good mechanic (somewhere near southern Ohio) at a shop that knows the HD hydraulic system, I would pay to have it fixed or replaced with an aftermarket system.
Wow, don't believe I just said that after paying 40K.

[tdkkart]

If this system is truly not adjustable, can the individual part specifications be so far off that mine is no where near center? How about some quality control folks?

This is where I was about to go.
The clutch consists of a master cylinder and a slave cylinder, when one moves, the other moves, they have a limited range, and as has been said, no adjustability.
But, the one thing that can change is the thickness of the clutch plate stack, which it will as it wears, and the slave cylinder will have to travel further to allow the plates to squeeze together.

Unfortuntely, I'm just 2 weeks into owning my first bike with this system, and i haven't gotten a service manual yet or I'd be looking into this further for you.  There has to be some way to compensate for wear, and some way to "reset" the system if you put in new thicker parts.

Food for thought.........

[grc]

The system works just like your brakes and there is no need to "reset" anything, just like you don't need to reset anything when you install new brake pads.  The one difference is that as your brakes wear more fluid moves to the caliper, whereas when your clutch disks wear more fluid moves back to the master cylinder.  So while you may need to add a little fluid to the brake MC if your pads are worn, you will need to be careful to not overfill the clutch MC and may even need to remove some fluid as the clutch wears.  Installing new disks will only require you to verify the correct fluid level.  The rest is automatic.

The actual pushrod that transfers motion from the actuator (slave cylinder) to the clutch release plate is a nonadjustable rod, unlike the cable clutch models.  If it was the wrong length, that could cause a problem because it could cause the actuator to reach the limit of it's travel.  The same applies to the thickness of the entire clutch pack, the dimensions of the release plate, the distance from the actuator to the release plate, etc..  With the proper specs and tools, all of this could be measured and verified.  Don't hold your breath waiting for a dealer or H-D to do this.  H-D likes wide tolerances so they can tell everyone that everything is "normal" or "in spec".  As their quality has gotten worse, their tolerances have gotten wider.  Keeps the warranty costs down.

Jerry

[Trapperdog]

Although I know nothing of them, there is a company that produces adjustable levers for '14 and up FL hydraulic units. http://www.hogleverage.com/php/categories.php
I have OEM and aftermarket adjustable levers on other hydraulic equipped bikes which work well for me as I prefer the engagement point further out for normal riding, but close to the grip for cone courses.
Most may not prefer the aesthetics on a CVO, however it my be a viable alternative for those in need of a closer engagement point.
I also do not know if Hog Levers uses a proven system for hydraulics such as Pazzo industries, which unfortunately do not manufacture anything for HD

[Dan_Lockwood]

FullBagger, I feel your frustration...

One thing I did not notice in just reviewing the entire thread is this; you say you now have 5200 miles on the bike and you're complaining about the clutch lever engagement position of the lever.

How did the bike perform when it was new with zero miles?  If I missed this in an early post, I'm sorry for bring it up now...

You say you just had another CVO '14 with hydraulic clutch and it was okay.  I would have thought hopping from the old "okay" bike to the new, "not okay" bike, it would have been a red flag before you ever had 100 on it.

So, did it always engage like it does now?  If so, you just lived with it for 5k miles.  Or did it work okay and then go bad around 5000 miles?

This could shed light onto the "wear" issues or "bad parts" from the beginning.

I'm not being critical of your complaint, just would like to know if it's always been this way or just started to do the funky release position.

[sadunbar]

The only way to diagnose and correct the clutch engagement point is to mechanically diagnose the system.  If the clutch is engaging to "late", and the master cylinder is not overfilled, then there is a mechanical reason.  I would first measure (with a dial indicator) the amount of clutch plate lift - the amount of push rod travel you get when you squeeze the clutch lever.  All things being as designed, the pushrod is designed to travel .065" when you squeeze the clutch lever.  If you have less than .065", you likely have air in the system.  (Air in the system would result in the clutch engaging to soon rather than to late, or not releasing at all.)  In my experience typical pushrod movement in a properly bled system is .065" to .073".  If you have the proper amount of pushrod movement, then your master cylinder and slave cylinder are functioning as designed.  If you have the proper amount of travel, yet the clutch engaging "late", then either the pushrod is to long (with a 6 speed transmission, the push rod should be 15.552" long), the clutch plates are to thin, or there is another mechanical deficiency.  It could be bent snap rings in the release plate assembly causing the issue.  But rest assured, if you have the proper amount of clutch plate lift, something mechanical in the release mechanism or clutch hub assembly is either damaged, worn or was manufactured out of tolerance, causing the clutch lever to engage the clutch mechanism to late.

[FullBagger]

Dan_Lockwood,

Great point! No offense taken. I've lived with it for 6k now. At the risk of sounding like a broken record (oops, showing my age here), I hope this answers your questions.
I have taken it to several dealers, called HD Customer Service and they all said, in no uncertain terms, "There is nothing we can do, they are all different".
Every HD motorcycle I've had, was "unique". I use that term loosely. I think HD calls this NORMAL.
I noticed the problem early on. At first I thought I just needed to get used to the bike's unique characteristics. After 1500 miles or so, I was convinced that the engagement point was so far out that there was nearly nothing left in the lever once it started to engage. This in itself is not the problem. The thing I cannot get used to is that it is like a cam. Once you hit a certain point it "rolls" past the lobe and quickly fully engages. There is very little movement between the beginning of engagement and fully engaged. I keep hoping I'll get used to it but I feel like a newbie with the clutch in this bike.

Letting the clutch out is an exciting time. Especially from dead stop to tight turn. Holly sh1t! I actually have to concentrate to finesse the clutch and rear break to keep from dumping it. Haven't had to think about things like that in a long time. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the worlds gift to MC riding but I'd rather be thinking about other hazards like gravel, diesel fuel spills and other vehicles .... not the clutch.
Maybe if I have the clutch replaced, it will help. It really is a challenge at times.

sadunbar
Thank you for your insight. I'll have another discussion with the techs about working "with me" to diagnose the problem. I truly believe it is a problem and outside of normal operation. I'll spend the money to fix it, I just want it fixed.

Thanks to all for your responses and support.

[tdkkart]

 You might want to update your profile putting in at least a general location. It's entirely possible there
is someone reading this saying "if he was close to me I'd be willing to help".
If you were close to me I'd take my personal bike apart to compare to yours if it would help.

In fact, looking at the parts diagrams, I can see a couple places that could potentially be adjusted/shimmed/etc to adjust the "non-adjustable" mechanism.
Even putting an extra gasket or 2 behind the side cover(where the slave cylinder is mounted) could make a significant difference.