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Author Topic: Dyno Test! Stock heads and TB VS CNC heads and 58TB  (Read 18596 times)

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Fullsac Performance

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Re: Dyno Test! Stock heads and TB VS CNC heads and 58TB
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2015, 07:00:25 PM »

Steve could you please post a part number for the heads and did you use stock injectors with the 58mm t/b ?


They claim they are decked back down to 85cc but I have not verifed.


I read that too, but the intake manifold sure slid in nice?

HD Part # for the heads is 16500013A. $829.00 From Kutter
http://www.boardtrackerharleyonline.com/screamin-eagle-parts/cylinder-heads
 I used stock injectors with the 58 on this one . I made 117 HP with stock injectors on a recent 107 with these same heads. Duty cycle was in the low 90s, no issues. Others may disagree with the duty cycle being this high, if so bring it on, I love technical debates Lol..

Steve@fullsac.com
« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 07:09:27 PM by Fullsac Performance »
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TorqueInc

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Re: Dyno Test! Stock heads and TB VS CNC heads and 58TB
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2015, 07:01:50 AM »

  The Harley CNC heads

  Have 1.875/1.575 valves (intake valve is .070 larger...ex is stock diameter)

  CNC intake/exhaust/chamber

  higher open/closed beehive springs

  are decked ABOUT .030 to get the heads back to 85 ish

  are designed to be paired with the 58SE throttle body

  Could almost consider this head an upgrade over the 110 heads given the way most actually ride
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Fullsac Performance

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Re: Dyno Test! Stock heads and TB VS CNC heads and 58TB
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2015, 08:50:41 AM »

  The Harley CNC heads

  Have 1.875/1.575 valves (intake valve is .070 larger...ex is stock diameter)

  CNC intake/exhaust/chamber

  higher open/closed beehive springs

  are decked ABOUT .030 to get the heads back to 85 ish

  are designed to be paired with the 58SE throttle body

  Could almost consider this head an upgrade over the 110 heads given the way most actually ride

Good info!
I would not have thought they were decked that much by how easy the 58 TB slid in. In the past I have had to trim the stock TBs to get them in with decked heads, something I try to avoid now. Easy install when all the parts line up.

Steve@fullsac.com
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Gandrtravis

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Re: Dyno Test! Stock heads and TB VS CNC heads and 58TB
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2015, 11:09:03 PM »

How do you feel these heads would work on a 110 probably not as much gain with the stock 255 cam my guess ? Wondering how these may work with my gmr 113 kit with .600 cam and fullsac exahust might be my next purchase.
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TorqueInc

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Re: Dyno Test! Stock heads and TB VS CNC heads and 58TB
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2015, 04:25:27 PM »

How do you feel these heads would work on a 110 probably not as much gain with the stock 255 cam my guess ? Wondering how these may work with my gmr 113 kit with .600 cam and fullsac exahust might be my next purchase.

  a 110 with the cnc factory heads would be about 10.7-1 with the factory cnc heads

  113 would be right at 11-1

  with a .030 gasket

  You would be best to ask Steve how his cam would work with this combo

  I think a head configured SIMILAR to the cnc factory in most cases is an upgrade over the CVO110 heads
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Re: Dyno Test! Stock heads and TB VS CNC heads and 58TB
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2015, 06:07:51 PM »

The HD CNC head is not a bad item if you want to stay with HD parts.. The valve springs are a 585 lift item and have too much pressure.. In fact the stock bee hive works better . Many times you will notice with the HD CNC that you will have valve train noise.. this is due to the springs.

If you opt to swap them and want the head to work better a simple upgrade is bump the intake to a 1.900 and they work better low and mid lift numbers increase peak flow a bit but as John said for the most riders they offer a nice increase.

I have a dealer that has us do all the performance builds and they send these to us all the time. We started to swap springs due to customer not liking the valve train noise. Simple spring swap and there you have it
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Re: Dyno Test! Stock heads and TB VS CNC heads and 58TB
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2015, 01:44:37 PM »

How do you feel the added compression will work with your cam somebody earlyer figured 11.1 or so should be fine ?
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Re: Dyno Test! Stock heads and TB VS CNC heads and 58TB
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2015, 02:05:55 PM »

I have had customer run the 577 at 11.1 and it worked. I feel that if some where to do that you need a tuner that is on his game.. That would produce a fair amount of CCP , with heat and pump gas , heavy bagger the tune would need a fair amount of work in the timing tables to prevent ign ping.

However I did a re work on a HD 103 HD CNC heads and 255 cam. The bike had some major issues. High CCP a 103 kit ( bike was a 96 inch) that was not sealing up well and pushing some oil.  But with our cam swapped in a bore to 105 CI ( 10.1 comp ratio) it made 110, 118 

I felt that was very good .  We did swap the valve springs no other head work.
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FlaHeatWave

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Re: Dyno Test! Stock heads and TB VS CNC heads and 58TB
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2015, 10:09:04 PM »

Here's a dyno test you won't see everyday. It started with our shop 2015 Road Glide 103 that was bone stock internally. Only parts it had was my DX Pipe, 2.0 cores in the stock mufflers and SE Heavy Breather. Made a very respectful 89 HP and 102 peak TQ.Tore it down and bolted on Harleys CNC ported heads, 58mm TB and nothing else. Back in the dyno room, full tune with TTS Vtune three using widebands to get 100% software generated VE tables. Ended up with over a 10 HP gain, 100 HP and 110 peak!  Exceptional bottom end power crossing 100 FT pounds at 2500 RPM. Getting pretty close to 1 HP per cube with stock cams! Not bad for out of the box Harley parts. Too bad we can't get these heads in the CVO granite color.

Steve@fullsac.com

Good info :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: Dyno Test! Stock heads and TB VS CNC heads and 58TB
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2015, 08:29:24 AM »

did you get a chance to add the TTS100 cams yet?
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Fullsac Performance

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Re: Dyno Test! Stock heads and TB VS CNC heads and 58TB
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2015, 09:54:53 AM »

did you get a chance to add the TTS100 cams yet?

I have em sitting on my desk. Looking at the first week in November before I can get my own bike on a lift
thanks to all you Guys!

Steve@fullsac.com
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Re: Dyno Test! Stock heads and TB VS CNC heads and 58TB
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2016, 02:25:28 PM »

after I read this post I installed the SE CNC heads with 58mm throttle body, .030 head gasket and S&S 570 cams on a 103, 110 hp 107 TQ it runs great and pulls strong everywhere, tune by Dean at VIP
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 02:29:48 PM by Classic Beast »
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Lindal Ceramic discs
RB Black Hole pipe
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Re: Dyno Test! Stock heads and TB VS CNC heads and 58TB
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2016, 02:38:58 PM »


Those SE CNC heads are awesome performers out of the box.

Here's the before and after dyno runs when I added the TTS 100 cams to the mix. Amazing TQ from a little 103 with 9.8 compression.

SG
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Re: Dyno Test! Stock heads and TB VS CNC heads and 58TB
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2016, 03:17:46 PM »


They claim they are decked back down to 85cc but I have not verifed.


I read that too, but the intake manifold sure slid in nice?

HD Part # for the heads is 16500013A. $829.00 From Kutter
http://www.boardtrackerharleyonline.com/screamin-eagle-parts/cylinder-heads
 I used stock injectors with the 58 on this one . I made 117 HP with stock injectors on a recent 107 with these same heads. Duty cycle was in the low 90s, no issues. Others may disagree with the duty cycle being this high, if so bring it on, I love technical debates Lol..

Steve@fullsac.com

Steve,

I sorta disagree provided that you aren't using fully matched/tested injectors for this workload.  The, reasoning behind disagreeing is that with the higher the duty cycle there is a greater the chance that the fuel injection spray pattern is altered and that can/usually does reduce fuel atomization which leads to less power if that is the intent.   Typically we hear that it is not recommended to run an injector at more than 80% due to the above reasoning.   One of the reason that injectors are tested past 80% is to be sure that that the injector is large enough to support the engine during normal operating conditions and will not starve the engine for fuel.  Fuel pressure also plays a role in this combination that some don't think to take into account either.




« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 03:22:00 PM by Unbalanced »
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Fullsac Performance

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Re: Dyno Test! Stock heads and TB VS CNC heads and 58TB
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2016, 11:37:42 AM »

Steve,

I sorta disagree provided that you aren't using fully matched/tested injectors for this workload.  The, reasoning behind disagreeing is that with the higher the duty cycle there is a greater the chance that the fuel injection spray pattern is altered and that can/usually does reduce fuel atomization which leads to less power if that is the intent.   Typically we hear that it is not recommended to run an injector at more than 80% due to the above reasoning.   One of the reason that injectors are tested past 80% is to be sure that that the injector is large enough to support the engine during normal operating conditions and will not starve the engine for fuel.  Fuel pressure also plays a role in this combination that some don't think to take into account either.

I'm no injector expert, but my basic understanding is a little different. Sequential fuel injection allows injectors to be individually fired during a specific window of crankshaft rotation. Obviously this would be timed with the intake valve openings and the period of negative intake pressure to assure fuel was moving in the right direction. The duration of injector opening during this available window is a time over time measurement and referenced in duty cycle percentage. If the injector was opened during this entire window the duty cycle would be 100%. Injector spray pattern does not change with duty cycle. They are opened or closed. A smaller injector has better atomization than a larger one, it has smaller holes. This is better for low speed operation and emissions. The OEM cars these days run their duty cycles into the low 90s routinely. This is all driven by emissions, not peak HP goals. Running bigger injectors than you need is the safe way to go for easy WOT tuning even though in theory it may cost you low speed power. I think we would need a a very sophisticacted test session to ever figure that one out. I purposely left the stock injectors in that 107 build after someone told me they would not work. With a different cam, more overlap and duration, may have gone lean and never made it to the same HP level? I'm not telling others to do it, but I had no issues and better than expected results in the driveability department with injector duty cycles in the low 90s.
Maybe on the next one I will run out of fuel?

Ride safe!

SG

PS- On any fuel injection that does not allow individual cylinder tuning, getting the injectors flowed and matched as you mentioned is very important. I had all 8 of the injectors flowed and matched on my little 635" Pontiac. Front tires still look like new!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 11:50:12 AM by Fullsac Performance »
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