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[scottt]

And that's how it used to be. Only the CVO came with the bigger engine 95', 103", 110", 114", and now 117". It came with SE cams, intake and exhaust, and a bunch of chrome plus a special limited paint job. And it WAS hard to get, people were putting down payments and waiting 4-6 months. Like I said earlier the bikes were made by hand picked teams off the assembly line. But all of that went away.

Now you walk into the dealer and there it sits on the floor,...alongside last years CVO bike.

My last CVO was a 07 with the 110. The bike looked beautiful but sucked on function. The engine ran beyond hot due to a lean condition. Had a tuner installed and did a dyno tune. Still performed way below expectations. The suspension was no better, upgraded to Ledgend suspension.

Overall the bike was a disappointing experience. Had issues, i finally threw in the towel. The 110's are not known for having great components, had major crank runout issues. Lifter issues, heat and pinging issues. In my opinion I'd rather have the older 103 SE motor.

When the 08's came out the CVO was totally available. From my experience the waiting list ended in 07. Today they loose more value than a standard Harley. Really, a ultra limited Road Glide with a 114 makes the most sense. If your buying a new 2020.

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[WildmanUltra]

If you'll go back in time we heard the same about fuel injection, ABS brakes, throttle by wire, cruise control, etc.

Agreed, it took me a long time to want fuel injection on my vehicles. But also remember 30 years ago the first attempts at FI were very lame and a lot of times didn't work worth a darn.
I'm not saying some of there items aren't a good thing but I still feel some makes people LAZY. The lane warning feature is one. Now the car tells you when you wonder instead of having to keep your attention on your driving. The same with the systems that brake for you if you're not paying attention and you get too close to the rig in front of you. I've been driving for over 40 years now and have only rear ended one rig. And it was my fault becaue I was trying to light a cigarette and took my eyes off the road. I'm not faulting these new things and know they make driving safer in SOME ways but I fear when that car gets older and things start to fail what might happen. And as I said before all this stuff doesn't always work in some driving conditions.

I've never had a bike with traction control or hill hold or any of these other new items so I can't speak on how they work and if they really help. But I do know the first bike I ever had with ABS I didn't like that well to start with. It took me time to get use to braking and allowing the ABS to work as it should instead of braking like I would on a bike without it. So only time will tell if these items really make riding safer or if they only are an added expense that adds to the service bill as things wear out or fail. I worry about the person who doesn't have the funds to repair their bike or car when something goes bad and then keep operating it.

[Ironhorse]

The 110's are not known for having great components, had major crank runout issues. Lifter issues, heat and pinging issues. In my opinion I'd rather have the older 103 SE motor.

That is exactly why the ONLY CVO for me was the '06 Ultra. And I wanted one with at least 30K on the clock. I took mine to 83K before cracking the engine open.

[Ironhorse]

Agreed, it took me a long time to want fuel injection on my vehicles. But also remember 30 years ago the first attempts at FI were very lame and a lot of times didn't work worth a darn.
I'm not saying some of there items aren't a good thing but I still feel some makes people LAZY. The lane warning feature is one. Now the car tells you when you wonder instead of having to keep your attention on your driving. The same with the systems that brake for you if you're not paying attention and you get too close to the rig in front of you. I've been driving for over 40 years now and have only rear ended one rig. And it was my fault becaue I was trying to light a cigarette and took my eyes off the road. I'm not faulting these new things and know they make driving safer in SOME ways but I fear when that car gets older and things start to fail what might happen. And as I said before all this stuff doesn't always work in some driving conditions.

I've never had a bike with traction control or hill hold or any of these other new items so I can't speak on how they work and if they really help. But I do know the first bike I ever had with ABS I didn't like that well to start with. It took me time to get use to braking and allowing the ABS to work as it should instead of braking like I would on a bike without it. So only time will tell if these items really make riding safer or if they only are an added expense that adds to the service bill as things wear out or fail. I worry about the person who doesn't have the funds to repair their bike or car when something goes bad and then keep operating it.

You touch on some very good points.

The first FI bike I had was a 1995 BMW RT. It ran well under all conditions. My second FI bike was the '01 Ultra. It had the Magnetti-Marelli FI system which was nothing but a pain. However, I love the Delphi FI on my '06. It's tuned and runs well, especially at altitude going over the Rockies and Bear Tooth pass.

As for ABS, I think it's a good thing but folks have got to practice with it regularly. If they don't, they will be uncomfortable when it kicks in. I'm not a big fan of linked brakes, as that promotes laziness through lack of practice too.

I am with you 100% on all the new fangled "upgrade" packages on cars. Lane position sensors and proximity sensors promote bad habits. Drivers will lose their "down field" focus and start watching only the cars directly in front of them and on the sides. Instead of reading traffic they will be waiting for the alarm to go off and the on dash indicator to light up showing them how close the other cars are. And as soon as your focus drops from 3-5 cars ahead to the car in front of you, you're out of the game. Same with back up cameras. I had one on my work truck and hardly used it. I've seen too many drivers in the parking lot with their head down and eyes locked on the screen. They never come up and scan 360 for threats.

[CVODON]

I have to disagree with the lazy comments due to electronic greatness. There are about a million more cars now on the road than when I started driving and I like all the help I can get. I have a car with all the latest stuff and some of it I do not consciencely use but if for some reason a warning goes off that is good if it even prevents one accident in a lifetime. Also what everyone seems to overlook is the lane change and forward warning do not help only you, it also lets you know if the guy on your left, or right, is encroaching in your lane and the computer will jump on the brakes faster than you can when some idiot changes lanes in front of you and stands on his brake pedal.
I love ABS, wouldn't have a new vehicle without it but i read on this forum where a guy had pulled the fuse so his so it wouldn't work, and the bike was new. We all have different views and opinions but personally I like anything that will help prevent me from hurting myself or others. Getting old and need all the help I can get. I do not want another new bike, IMHO the colors just suck, but I may buy just for the safety stuff.

[WildmanUltra]

Okay maybe lazy isn't the correct verbiage to use. I think for some people it will make them more dependent on these electronic features instead of learning how to really drive. Like the system that will parallel your rig for you now. I drove a semi for some years and could parallel park it with a 53' trailer hooked up. How many people CAN'T even drive and manual transmission anymore?
Instead of scanning your lane and looking ahead like I was taught to do many will rely on these devices instead. So I call it being lazy.

And as I stated before all this stuff makes things cost more and when something breaks it means people like me can't work on this stuff without spending $$$$ before we can even diagnose the issue. While I too agree some of these things have made life better I am not going to say I think they are all GREAT.   

[scottt]

I have to disagree with the lazy comments due to electronic greatness. There are about a million more cars now on the road than when I started driving and I like all the help I can get. I have a car with all the latest stuff and some of it I do not consciencely use but if for some reason a warning goes off that is good if it even prevents one accident in a lifetime. Also what everyone seems to overlook is the lane change and forward warning do not help only you, it also lets you know if the guy on your left, or right, is encroaching in your lane and the computer will jump on the brakes faster than you can when some idiot changes lanes in front of you and stands on his brake pedal.
I love ABS, wouldn't have a new vehicle without it but i read on this forum where a guy had pulled the fuse so his so it wouldn't work, and the bike was new. We all have different views and opinions but personally I like anything that will help prevent me from hurting myself or others. Getting old and need all the help I can get. I do not want another new bike, IMHO the colors just suck, but I may buy just for the safety stuff.

Totally agree with this post as i believe most new buyers would. The most experienced rider cannot brake as safely as ABS under all potential conditions, especially the new cornering ABS technology. We all know how dangerous it is to brake while leaned over in a corner, this new feature will greatly improve your chances should you brake under these conditions. As they say "stuff happens". Better to have technology on your side than not.

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[Ironhorse]

Totally agree with this post as i believe most new buyers would. The most experienced rider cannot brake as safely as ABS under all potential conditions, especially the new cornering ABS technology. We all know how dangerous it is to brake while leaned over in a corner, this new feature will greatly improve your chances should you brake under these conditions. As they say "stuff happens". Better to have technology on your side than not.

Yes,....as long as the rider practices with it and learns how it feels and reacts when it's deployed. I can't tell you how many times I've asked riders, how do you like the ABS and they say "I don't know, I've never used it". Work with it, feel what it's like when it kicks in. I hope we don't develop a generation of riders who will just ride through curves without scanning the surface, looking for hazards, looking for the apex or looking for an exit all because their bike "can brake in a curve". Riders must still understand that if they are drifting outside, they need to look through the exit, press the inside grip forward and roll on the throttle. As amazing as this device is, (and I'm sure it's damn amazing) I don't think it will make up for the unpracticed rider who target fixates on an oncoming car or the ditch on the far side.

It's great to have the technology on your side, as long as you practice with it and know how it reacts, what it's going to do and what the limitations are.

[scottt]

Yes,....as long as the rider practices with it and learns how it feels and reacts when it's deployed. I can't tell you how many times I've asked riders, how do you like the ABS and they say "I don't know, I've never used it". Work with it, feel what it's like when it kicks in. I hope we don't develop a generation of riders who will just ride through curves without scanning the surface, looking for hazards, looking for the apex or looking for an exit all because their bike "can brake in a curve". Riders must still understand that if they are drifting outside, they need to look through the exit, press the inside grip forward and roll on the throttle. As amazing as this device is, (and I'm sure it's damn amazing) I don't think it will make up for the unpracticed rider who target fixates on an oncoming car or the ditch on the far side.

It's great to have the technology on your side, as long as you practice with it and know how it reacts, what it's going to do and what the limitations are.

Totally agree!

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[FLSTFI Dave]

Do tell please; what exactly is "don't take the Harley out of Harley's"?

Seriously, do we buy Harleys for styling down the road? How it looks in the garage? Or do we choose because we seriously ride and want a great motorcycle that delivers the best experience?

Have noticed, the number one comment about the 2020's is about paint. Really? Is Paint the most important feature of your bike? Very few comments about the new cornering ABS and how it could help save an accident.



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Well, a CVO is a good 10K more than the same bike, non-CVO.  So I had better get something worth 10K more.  So it should have much better, sharper looking paint.  It should have more stylized controls.  You cant see the new traction control and cornering ABS.  You would have to test the bike very hard, to the point of dragging the boards to find out if it really works.

Harley is not know for releasing new Tech that works right the first several years its out.  WHIM and wireless head set on my last two CVO suck.  Cant get the volume sound enough to hear it when using helmet speakers.  When using  bike speakers in will never ring in.  Wind noise is very bad on a half helmet, its almost impossible to talk to another bike, works fine with full face.  Yet my old plug in head set works great, half helmet or full face, cb or phone.

Head Unit has many issues, turn is wrong way, it freezes and never changes next street and so many more issues.

How about they fix the Sumping?  I would be interested in that.  How ab out they fix the oil transfer?  I would like that.  How about the moisture in the gages that has been an issue for more than six years. 

[Ironhorse]

Harley is not know for releasing new Tech that works right the first several years its out.

How about they fix the Sumping?  I would be interested in that.  How about they fix the oil transfer?  I would like that.  How about the moisture in the gauges that has been an issue for more than six years.

Ahhh,....wishful thinking,....

[iski]

Ahhh,....wishful thinking,....

Maybe an aftermarket vendor (Kury?) could invent some tiny inside the gauge windshield wipers to fix the problem?   

[grc]

Maybe an aftermarket vendor (Kury?) could invent some tiny inside the gauge windshield wipers to fix the problem?   

Sounds like a great idea, much better than mine.  I was planning to suggest Harley install a desiccant cartridge in the gauge cluster to absorb moisture, and then add changing it every 1000 miles in the maintenance schedule.  A replacement cartridge will cost $49.95, labor will be about 1.2 hours.  Failure to change the cartridge on a timely basis will void the warranty on the gauges.

Jerry

[Ironhorse]

Sounds like a great idea, much better than mine.  I was planning to suggest Harley install a desiccant cartridge in the gauge cluster to absorb moisture, and then add changing it every 1000 miles in the maintenance schedule.  A replacement cartridge will cost $49.95, labor will be about 1.2 hours.  Failure to change the cartridge on a timely basis will void the warranty on the gauges.

I was gonna suggest using your wife's hair dryer.

[iski]

Sounds like a great idea, much better than mine.  I was planning to suggest Harley install a desiccant cartridge in the gauge cluster to absorb moisture, and then add changing it every 1000 miles in the maintenance schedule.  A replacement cartridge will cost $49.95, labor will be about 1.2 hours.  Failure to change the cartridge on a timely basis will void the warranty on the gauges.

Jerry

My idea adds nothing to the HD bottom line.  No doubt Harley has a meeting to discuss your idea on their agenda. Performance Clear Gauges Cartridge as a 2021 catalogue item, will be standard on the 2023 bikes.  My Kury wiper idea would void the warranty for the entire bike ~"Unauthorized gauge moisture removal caused the sumping problem, your warranty is void."  CVO bikes will require a special CVO Screamin' Eagle gauges cartridge that will cost $99.50.

Or they could just use the same very well known tech knowledge that the auto industry has used about forever to have fog free gauges...