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[Midnight Rider]

Found this link on HotBikes interesting...of particular interest are the PDF files at the end comparing the stock HD 4 piston Calipers to the Performance Machine 4 piston calipers.  I'm sure this would hold true for HawgHalters, Brembos, and other higher end aftermarket calipers.  Looking at the time/distance to stop in a panic situation for the different speeds, it's pretty apparent there's a significant difference.  A few feet could be the difference in getting stopped by the brakes, or by whatever is in front of you.  Look at the distance at 97 MPH...

http://www.hotbikeweb.com/tech/0303hb_high_performance_brakes/

[Chief]

Found this link on HotBikes interesting...of particular interest are the PDF files at the end comparing the stock HD 4 piston Calipers to the Performance Machine 4 piston calipers.  I'm sure this would hold true for HawgHalters, Brembos, and other higher end aftermarket calipers.  Looking at the time/distance to stop in a panic situation for the different speeds, it's pretty apparent there's a significant difference.  A few feet could be the difference in getting stopped by the brakes, or by whatever is in front of you.  Look at the distance at 97 MPH...

http://www.hotbikeweb.com/tech/0303hb_high_performance_brakes/

Terry,

Looks like there's a pair of Brembos in your future.

Chief

[Midnight Rider]

Terry,

Looks like there's a pair of Brembos in your future.

Chief

PM's are ordered to go with the new wheels, but just for the front...Lyndal pads too. I'll add Lynall pads to the rear stock caliper.  I've got Brembo's on the SEVrod and the Ducati, and getting off those and on to the Ultra, even if it is heavier...NIGHT and DAY.  The Brembo's are almost a one finger operation for the front, and the feel is there.

[Twolanerider]

Thanks TC.  Appreciate seeing that article. 

I knew some chromed calipers of some type were going to hang on the new engraved forks sometime sooner rather than later.  Was really just planning on finishing wearing the pads out and making the change then.  The pads will be ready for change when I get back from seeing you.  So it was time to make a decision.

Speaking strictly for cosmetic reasons I've never been able to get on the Brembos.  That damned extra bracketry.  Speaking strictly for braking effectiveness, of course, can't really be beat.  Fortunately the other options have generally been perceived to be at least almost as good if not equally so.

Speaking again strictly cosmetically I've always liked the visual presentation made the PMs you're getting.  The Hawg Halters were ok too.  But I did like the PMs just a tiny bit better.  Both offer differential bore piston setups of the same size, fluid volumes are nearly identical; just very similar parts in braking effectiveness.

Then I saw the "better mousetrap" addition to the Hawg Halters.  For whatever reason it was an idea I just really liked.  Just too simple not to work well.  So with all the various pros and cons that's what pushed me over the edge with that product.

Hopefully they'll get here early enough tomorrow I'll have time to get them installed before leaving early Wednesday morning.  If not you'll only get to see the old standard stock calipers though.  But hey, at least the new legs will be there.

[Midnight Rider]

Thanks TC.  Appreciate seeing that article. 

I knew some chromed calipers of some type were going to hang on the new engraved forks sometime sooner rather than later.  Was really just planning on finishing wearing the pads out and making the change then.  The pads will be ready for change when I get back from seeing you.  So it was time to make a decision.

Speaking strictly for cosmetic reasons I've never been able to get on the Brembos.  That damned extra bracketry.  Speaking strictly for braking effectiveness, of course, can't really be beat.  Fortunately the other options have generally been perceived to be at least almost as good if not equally so.

Speaking again strictly cosmetically I've always liked the visual presentation made the PMs you're getting.  The Hawg Halters were ok too.  But I did like the PMs just a tiny bit better.  Both offer differential bore piston setups of the same size, fluid volumes are nearly identical; just very similar parts in braking effectiveness.

Then I saw the "better mousetrap" addition to the Hawg Halters.  For whatever reason it was an idea I just really liked.  Just too simple not to work well.  So with all the various pros and cons that's what pushed me over the edge with that product.

Hopefully they'll get here early enough tomorrow I'll have time to get them installed before leaving early Wednesday morning.  If not you'll only get to see the old standard stock calipers though.  But hey, at least the new legs will be there.

I like the one's your getting as well...both will do a great job, I'm sure.  Can't wait to see the legs, and they just would NOT look right with the aluminum bricks hanging off them...   From the article, nearly a hundred feet difference in distance from 97mph is a hell of a lot!!

I'm going to do the exchange thing on the rear caliper, just to get it chrome...for 150 bucks, what the hell...

The new SE springers/dyas need the rear chromed calipers bad!!

[Twolanerider]

I'm going to do the exchange thing on the rear caliper, just to get it chrome...for 150 bucks, what the hell...

The new SE springers/dyas need the rear chromed calipers bad!!

That braking distance difference was striking (pardon the pun).  That's a huge amount of space that might keep your ass on the seat rather than over the handlebars.

Remembered when Mark showed that changeout place for the rear caliper.  Hoped you'd bite the bullet and get that.  If not you know it'd bug you.  With everything else invested in all the new tires/wheels/rotors/etc it's hard not to do another hundred and a half to keep from feeling like you cut a major corner.

[Midnight Rider]

That braking distance difference was striking (pardon the pun).  That's a huge amount of space that might keep your ass on the seat rather than over the handlebars.

Remembered when Mark showed that changeout place for the rear caliper.  Hoped you'd bite the bullet and get that.  If not you know it'd bug you.  With everything else invested in all the new tires/wheels/rotors/etc it's hard not to do another hundred and a half to keep from feeling like you cut a major corner.

I'm going to give them a call in the morning to see if the timing works out...they give you 30 days to get the core back to them...wheels are supposed to be here around the first of April if they can get the rotors made.  Everything else is sitting at HogPro waiting to be put together and boxed up.  I figure the stock caliper, chromed, and a set of Lyndall pads on the back, will do the trick.  With the new suspension on the front to keep the nose from diving, I figure the stopping power will go up a great deal.  Really looking forward to both the cosmetic changes and the improved performance/safety the brakes and suspension will bring to the ride.

[Twolanerider]

I'm going to give them a call in the morning to see if the timing works out...they give you 30 days to get the core back to them...wheels are supposed to be here around the first of April if they can get the rotors made.  Everything else is sitting at HogPro waiting to be put together and boxed up.  I figure the stock caliper, chromed, and a set of Lyndall pads on the back, will do the trick.  With the new suspension on the front to keep the nose from diving, I figure the stopping power will go up a great deal.  Really looking forward to both the cosmetic changes and the improved performance/safety the brakes and suspension will bring to the ride.

It's gonna be sweet TC.  Stem to stern it's gonna be sweet.  I'm just glad you won't have your wheels yet when I see it in a few days.  Don't need more goodies to tempt me this spring.

[Talon]

I was just re-reading this same artical last night, and saw this post today! We spend a lot of mony making our bikes faster, might want to get them to slow down better too. I'm going to replace the front for sure and at least get good pads on the back.

[Midnight Rider]

I was just re-reading this same artical last night, and saw this post today! We spend a lot of mony making our bikes faster, might want to get them to slow down better too. I'm going to replace the front for sure and at least get good pads on the back.

You hit the nail on the head, Talon...about a month ago, I had a person stop in front of me in a place where you would never expect anyone to EVER stop (she was in a cage, not paying attention to the fact that she had just missed the turn lane, so thought she would just stop in the middle of the f'ing road), and I was in panic stop mode...momentarily locked up the rear and got a bit sideways, fronts had all the pressure I could muster with two fingers without locking them up (I ride with two fingers on front brakes), and saw I was not going to stop in time, but had an opening between her and the car next to her, so went between them.  Scared the chit out of me...right then and there I decided the bike was going to get better brakes. 
The lady was oblivious to all things until I went between her and the car next to her.  I had ASSumed she would continue driving straight ahead, and not stop in the middle of the friggin' road to wait on a space to get into the turn lane she had just driven by...no signal, nothing but brake lights.

These bikes are heavy...when the front end dives under hard braking, the rear becomes almost useless, the tire will lock up with hardly any pressure on the pedal.  A bunch of power is great, but it does no good to have it if you can't put it on the ground effectively, and stop it efficiently.  The mushy front forks are getting remedied as well. 

[Chief]

You hit the nail on the head, Talon...about a month ago, I had a person stop in front of me in a place where you would never expect anyone to EVER stop (she was in a cage, not paying attention to the fact that she had just missed the turn lane, so thought she would just stop in the middle of the f'ing road), and I was in panic stop mode...momentarily locked up the rear and got a bit sideways, fronts had all the pressure I could muster with two fingers without locking them up (I ride with two fingers on front brakes), and saw I was not going to stop in time, but had an opening between her and the car next to her, so went between them.  Scared the chit out of me...right then and there I decided the bike was going to get better brakes. 
The lady was oblivious to all things until I went between her and the car next to her.  I had ASSumed she would continue driving straight ahead, and not stop in the middle of the friggin' road to wait on a space to get into the turn lane she had just driven by...no signal, nothing but brake lights.

These bikes are heavy...when the front end dives under hard braking, the rear becomes almost useless, the tire will lock up with hardly any pressure on the pedal.  A bunch of power is great, but it does no good to have it if you can't put it on the ground effectively, and stop it efficiently.  The mushy front forks are getting remedied as well. 

Terry,

If you were at the point of almost locking up the front, how does this improve with new brakes? I've only had one cup of coffee, so I'm probably still not awake.

Chief

[Talon]

Chief, take a look at the article, the improved brakes allow more even brake pressue without locking up, this is why they stop the bikes faster. Below is a small part of the article on the calipers. But you correct, once you lock it up you loose a lot of you braking power, because of loss on contact/adhesion between the tire and the road. 

Further refinement in the P.M. caliper can be found in the form of differential bore pistons. This racing-inspired technology was developed in response to excessive pad wear at the entry point of the disc. The greatest heat concentration on a pad can be found at this point and is responsible for uneven pad wear and less-than-impressive braking. By incorporating a smaller piston at the disc entry, and a larger one at the exit, the pad-to-disc contact is significantly more efficient. This design not only controls uneven pad wear, but also keeps the entire pad surface at a constant friction level for more efficient contact on the rotor when the brakes are applied. The result is increased braking power without increased heat.

[Midnight Rider]

Terry,

If you were at the point of almost locking up the front, how does this improve with new brakes? I've only had one cup of coffee, so I'm probably still not awake.

Chief

A couple of things, Chief...the coefficient of friction between pad and rotor, and whether the caliper is a differential bore, applying the pressure from pad to rotor more evenly from the "front" of the pad, to the exit point of the rotor as it's turning.  It's not a huge difference, but a few feet is all it takes sometimes.  The difference in the "feel" on the brakes is HUGE between calipers like the PM's, HH's, Brembo's, etc.  Having the Vrod with Brembos, and the Ducati, has got me spoiled...it's just a much more controllable feel on the front...more linear, if that makes any sense.

[Chief]

A couple of things, Chief...the coefficient of friction between pad and rotor, and whether the caliper is a differential bore, applying the pressure from pad to rotor more evenly from the "front" of the pad, to the exit point of the rotor as it's turning.  It's not a huge difference, but a few feet is all it takes sometimes.  The difference in the "feel" on the brakes is HUGE between calipers like the PM's, HH's, Brembo's, etc.  Having the Vrod with Brembos, and the Ducati, has got me spoiled...it's just a much more controllable feel on the front...more linear, if that makes any sense.

I understand all that, but when it comes down to stopping in a hurry, if you were at the point of impending lockup, that's where the discussion ends. Any more braking pressure would result in a skid, period. I don't disagree that more even pad wear is good and all that. Heat dissipation, lever feel, coefficient of friction and all of the other measured performance criteria are very important in racing where there is constant use of the brakes and better brakes will give more consistent performance. A panic stop situation is a one shot deal and if you're just about to lock up the tires with the stock brakes, then it would stand to reason that increasing the coefficient of friction between the rubber and the road will have a more pronounced effect on stopping distance than new brakes. But..... with stickier tires, it is very possible that they WILL exceed the stopping power available with the stock brakes, and better brakes would then be required.

The one point I haven't addressed is better brakes may make it easier to effectively control, through better lever feel, the application of braking pressure. This is very subjective and may make you a better braker.

Regardless of which braking system is on your bike, the MOST IMPORTANT part of avoiding the car in front of you that does a panic stop is YOU. Everyone should practice panic stops, but few rarely do. I fall into that category myself.

How would you, (insert your name here), finish this statement? "In the past six months I have practiced maximum braking on my motorcycle ___ times."

Unfortunately, my answer is 0. I'll change that this weekend. That's my promise to myself and my passenger.

Chief

[Midnight Rider]

I have practiced panic stops in an empty parking lot 3 times in the past 6 months...at the same time, I practiced swerving manuvers, making slow speed turns.

I guess the point of this discussion about brakes/calipers is that we all know locking up the brakes is the MOST inefficient way to stop, so any improvement in feel and friction between the caliper, pad, and rotor will help a person avoid lock-up, all other things being equal.  So, although I was probably on the verge of locking up the front, if the brakes are more efficient, they will stop the bike quicker with the same amount of pressure, without locking up.

In the PDF file above, running 97mph, and applying the maxium braking pressure, the mass stopped nearly 100 feet sooner with aftermarket calipers than with stock.  That is a LOT of distance not covered in identical situations.  If you add into that whole equation the fact that with the stock HD front forks, they will pretty much be bottomed out, shifting even more of the weight to the front tire, the situation becomes even more unmanageable.  The rear tire/brake then becomes even less effective, and will be more likely to lock up (which is what happened to me in real life, and in the parking lot).

Chief, you are 100% right in saying that we all need to get out more and practice doing this kind of stuff...the more we do so, the more automatic it becomes.  I am convinced that if I had not practiced the very thing I did to avoid eating up the back end of that ladies car, my bike wouldn't look nearly so good right now, not to mention me and Suzanne.  It's Suzanne I'm more concerned about than myself, so whatever I can do to make my bike stop better and handle more effectively with the skills I have (not that I am skilled), is time and money well spent.  It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that some owners spend a lot of time and money getting their bike to go faster in a straight line, and not enough making it stop and go around curves better, which is not simply a matter of riding skill, but characteristics of the bike as well. 

It could and should be argued that I should not have been close enough to the the car in front of me for it to be an issue, but despite our best intentions, chit happens.  I kicked my own a$$ for several minutes after that incident, but it's the unexpected that always bites us, and by definition we cannot prepare ourselves adequately for those situations.  But, one thing I can do is make the bike able to do the best it can do with appropriate input from me.  These certainly are not race bikes, but who here is not guilty of pushing the bike to the limits of it's capability from time to time?  Making it a bit more capable just gives me a little comfort in the back of my mind, especially when I learn it's weaknesses.

How's that for a rationalization to spend a bunch of money on chrome calipers, new rotors, and new front fork cartridges?