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Author Topic: Problems with S+S gears drive  (Read 9852 times)

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02stroker

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Problems with S+S gears drive
« on: April 04, 2007, 09:40:33 PM »

I just installed an S+S gear drive system with 625 cams in my 103 and wouldn't ya know it a week later I hear a couple of guys at the harley joint bitchin that the teeth are brealing off the gears.  Anyone else hear anything about this?  Thanks
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hd-dude

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Re: Problems with S+S gears drive
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2007, 10:32:52 PM »

The only time I have seen teeth break off the gears is when the crank runout is excessive and the crank bearing has sh*t the bed!

screamin eagle

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Re: Problems with S+S gears drive
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2007, 09:30:16 AM »

 The problem is like HD-dude says, The run out on the crank is more than .001 the gears will bind up and break. I had to have mine Blueprinted, balanced and straightened. Zippers sent it to Wisconsin to have it done. They check the crank when you purchase gear drive cams from them and they install. I purchased the 113 Muscle kit with the gear drive cams and did not want to spend all of that money and not get gear drive cams. According to them they are seeing alot of cranks .005 to .008 out. It is the way Harley makes them by pressing them together and then only using chain drive cams. Hopefully some of the vibration will go away with balancing the crank.
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Re: Problems with S+S gears drive
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2007, 11:05:43 AM »

The question on crank runout is one that I posed to Mike at Team Latus, I'd hate to order a gear drive set, and find out that in order to use it I'd have to do a total rebuild! Thats why HD goes with chain, they don't have to correct the runout. Here's Mike's reply, I know there will be many people that might disagree with the comments below.

We check runout's routinely and often find them to be .0015-.004. When it's a problem depends on who you talk to. Bob Wood, I believe, says more than .0015 should be corrected. The problem is how? You will not be able to get gear backlash down to -.001 with much more than .0015 runout on the crank. So then, what is acceptable? I do not get too excited until we are in the +.006 area (a lot from the cam plate bushing's point of view, along with oil pressure losses). There will be those who'll say this is way too much.

It's tough to recommend complete engine teardowns and replacement or corrected (not easy to do) cranks to customers who came in for a cam/gear drive change. You also get to correct all the other things you'll find not quite right in the process so then it becomes a motor rebuild pretty fast! It's a bit of a judgement call and each engine builder will have their own critical number but it will still come down to what customers are willing to accept and at what point is it truly a problem vs. an annoyance.
Mike

http://www.latus-harley-davidson.com/mbbs2/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=491&posts=5&highlight=crank%20runout&highlightmode=1#M3211
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02stroker

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Re: Problems with S+S gears drive
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2007, 04:15:05 PM »

Well...ugh...so much for easy bolt in upgrades.  I guess this is a positive side to the timing chains that no one ever tells you.  Oh well, I'll check run out tonight and see what happens, might be a S+S gear set for sale  >:(.  Thanks for all the thought provoking food.
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Re: Problems with S+S gears drive
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2007, 05:01:07 PM »

Well...ugh...so much for easy bolt in upgrades.  I guess this is a positive side to the timing chains that no one ever tells you.  Oh well, I'll check run out tonight and see what happens, might be a S+S gear set for sale  >:(.  Thanks for all the thought provoking food.

I wouldn't exactly call excessive crank runout a BENEFIT! The fact that they can't control crank runout because of the new way of assembling the flywheels, isn't any benefit at all! They need the chain to account for the inconsistant crank runout they're seeing. So we get stuck with a chain to pick up the slop in their bottom end, just to get cams to work! If you think this is a benefit, your the customer the factory wants every day of the week! ;) Hoist! 8)
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Re: Problems with S+S gears drive
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2007, 07:50:43 PM »

Just so everyone knows. The main reason HD uses chain driven cams is NOISE! The EPA has regs that the moco must follow. I am not saying that the crank Assembly's aren't the icing on the cake either. The chain assembly is also cheaper to buy.

When Zippers did my rebuild my crank was out .008. The motor was still under warranty and the Moco did cover it. The new assembly was .0005. So it was real close. You can't get much better than that.

For anyone who does the teardown to true the crank Assembly. Do yourself a favor and have it welded after truing.

You know if you really think about it. Most of use don't keep a bike stock. So you take the bike that you have soooooo much love for and have fun making it look and run better and be so much more reliable. Come to think of it they are soooo much more fun to ride when you are done.


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Re: Problems with S+S gears drive
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2007, 12:56:34 PM »

Dawg,
Is the run out do to the press together not being lined up or is it poor machining from the factory?
Mike
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Re: Problems with S+S gears drive
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2007, 03:31:03 PM »

I've had mine in for 10,000 miles with no problems
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Re: Problems with S+S gears drive
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2007, 07:14:20 PM »

Dawg,
Is the run out do to the press together not being lined up or is it poor machining from the factory?Mike

Mike when they square up the flywheels it is done by machine. I am not sure how many units they pull and check the truing on. But I can tell you in my travels over to Zippers they tell me they see a lot of assemblys out and the ones that are out .008 are very common. In the past the flywheels were bolted together and I believe they were done by hand (truing). I actually have an old flywheel truing stand and I actually know how to true the old ones. One of the problems with the pressed assemblys are NO HOLESHOTS!!!!!! A holeshot will throw the flywheels out unless they have been welded. The pressed flywheel assemblys came about to save labor costs. IMHO the pressed flywheel assemblys are no where near a strong as the older ones. The pressed bearing (not the timken) was also designed to save labor costs.

If you own a CVO big incher ( 2003 and later) and you plan on keeping the bike, I would do the lower end of the motor. Having the flywheels welded and the timken conversion done along with the addition of gear driven cams and a fueling pump. Your motor should out last you. At least the lower end should.

You can pull the motor yourself and drive or ship it to Zippers. Make the appointment first so turn around will be quicker. And just have them go through the motor. The price won't be toooooo bad and when you are finished you will be so suprised how quite and smooth the motor will run. Some people on the site have done the 113 conversion  and some have had the 103 muscle kit done on the motor. Either way you will have your basic stock componets on the out side with some strong upgrades on the inside.

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djkak

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Re: Problems with S+S gears drive
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2007, 12:29:58 AM »

Considering the unstable nature of the “breathed on” 1941 design of the pre Twin Cam crankshaft, together with the time-tested reliability of the camshaft gear drives used with these cranks; I find it difficult to rationalize the root cause of fractured S&S gear teeth as being a crankshaft issue. I’m not suggesting that crank runout doesn’t contribute; I’m saying that there are many tens of thousands of pre Twin Cam machines running around with crank runout approaching double digits, that grind away mile after mile without breaking teeth off the cam drive gears. My sense is that the root cause has more to do with the metallurgical properties or design of the S&S gear than the runout of a crankshaft.

Gear driven valve trains have been around since the beginning of motorcycling. In the last 40ish years prior to the Twin Cam gear drives, fractured cam or pinion gear teeth were unheard of, unless there was an issue with foreign object damage. The gearmesh of some generator equipped Big Twin’s and Sportsters were often set up so tight, that you could hear the gearcase whine over the exhaust from a block or two away; this was not at all uncommon; yet no broken cam or pinion teeth.

The three and five piece “bolt together” crankshafts used in the pre Twin Cam machines are extremely flexible. The tapers on both the shafts and flywheels become polished with mileage; evidence of significant movement of the shafts and crankpin in the tapers. Flywheel shift of the pre Twin Cam crankshaft is a common occurrence. It is not unheard of to see evidence of contact between a flywheel and the oil scraper in the crankcase of these early machines; yet no broken cam or pinion teeth.

It seems to me that wrist pin thrust became a problem for HD when they eliminated the tapers and integrated both left and right shafts into the flywheels. The issue with this crankshaft is that the right side Gear-shaft is much smaller in diameter than the left side Sprocket-shaft, so the right side flexes more under load. This right side flex causes the flywheel assembly to “wobble” when loaded; setting up a side-to-side “whipping” action of the connecting rods.

The attached photo illustrates the effect of a whipping connecting rod on the wrist pin retainer of an EVO piston. It is my strong sense that some evidence of wrist pin thrusting will be present in any EVO with 20k + miles and configured with floating wrist pins and wire retainers. Machines that are ridden hard generally show stronger evidence at an earlier mileage. The area most affected by this crankshaft flex is the right side wrist pin retainer groove of the front piston; yet no broken cam or pinion teeth.

There is some “give” in the PTO side taper of the earlier five piece assemblies which seems to offset the wobble affect to some small degree. Another variable affecting wrist pin thrust are the floating wrist pins used in the EVO’s. The earlier Shovelhead wrist pins were setup with a tighter interference fit than the “drop-in” fit of the EVO’s, so wrist pin thrusting in the Shovelheads was not an apparent issue.

The Twin Cam crankshaft addresses the shortcomings of its predecessor in a couple of ways. The diameter of the right shaft was increased to mirror the left PTO side. The increase in diameter reduces flexibility while the commonised diameters improve stability. The crankpin diameter was increased by almost 1 inch to provide a stable anchor for each flywheel half. It is my sense that the “press together” design was chosen to address inherent stability issues with the 60 + year old taper-fit crankpin design previously used.

All things being equal, the Twin Cam crank assembly is much more rigid and stable than its predecessor; that said, it is my sense that high output machines would benefit from welding the crankpin to the flywheel. Folks have been welding press-together cranks in high output applications for decades.

On another somewhat related topic; the Twin Cam’s chain driven cams were developed in an effort to control engine noise and reduce manufacturing costs. In the pre Twin Cam engines, HD’s effort to match the cam and pinion gears was expensive, but necessary to manage engine noise. A specific tooth profile and finish was required as well precisely matching the center-to-center distance of the gears. Some flexibility with the center distance was required to accommodate a normal production variance occurring in the manufacturing of the gearcase covers. HD produced 7 different sized pinion and 7 different cam gears for the EVO engine. The difference in pitch diameter between sizes is a few ten thousandths of an inch. It is my sense that the chain is as quiet or quieter, at least when new, and it is a fraction of the cost to produce.

HD still does the precision gear fit in the XL engines. As I remember it, at one time there were over 250 possible gear combinations produced for the XL 4 cam engine. You used to be able to order cam gears by color code for the XL, now if you need a cam, you get all four matched to a cover.

All of this is just my humble opinion, but if you print this post and bring it to Starbuck’s along with $4, they will pour you a cup of their fine coffee; be sure to tell them that djkak sent you.
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Re: Problems with S+S gears drive
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2007, 02:00:13 PM »

DJKAK very good post. A lot of people do not know the older flywheel assemblys were a 5 peice setup. Also a lot of people back in the day welded the flywheel assemblys.

If your motor is apart it is very cheap insurance to have your assembly welded.

Now all of the book worms have some home work to do!!!!!!!

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02stroker

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Re: Problems with S+S gears drive
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2007, 10:11:33 AM »

To Hoist-
Please reread my post.  Read it slow and take your time to sound out all the big words.  I never said anything about crank run out being a good thing.  Shheeesh...some people.

To everyone else
Thank you very much for taking the time to post all the great info.
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Re: Problems with S+S gears drive
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2007, 10:15:40 AM »

Well...ugh...so much for easy bolt in upgrades.  I guess this is a positive side to the timing chains that no one ever tells you.  Oh well, I'll check run out tonight and see what happens, might be a S+S gear set for sale  >:(.  Thanks for all the thought provoking food.

Positive side=Benefit! Nuff said on this!
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Re: Problems with S+S gears drive
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2007, 06:58:39 PM »

Any time 02 Stroker!

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the O`Fender

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Re: Problems with S+S gears drive
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2007, 11:15:43 PM »

over 15k on gear drive with andrews 60g, no problems (knock on wood)!!!
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