Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Eqcons]

You could change the Maximum CLP offset up to 50%, a note in their manual has the statement below. Page 58 of the downloadable manual. It changes the amount of times the ECU can adjust and how much, the preset is 20%, which I've been told is 10% in either direction. It can be changed to up to 50%. I asked this question once before to see if anyone had tried this, but no one replied! If it works then you could take the changes and make them your base map and reset the CLP offset back to 20%. I'm basically talking from what I read in the manual, I have no experience with this, but I did a lot of reading and have read most of the manual and that's what my take on this is.

Yes, but I don't see that there's a problem with the AFR that's causing the pinging, which is all that the TMAT is learning and adjusting. It's a timing thing, not a mixture thing, and the timing needs to be retarded under the circumstances where it pings.  The TMAT can't do that.....

Or perhaps I'm just stoopid of course - ready and willing for somebody to tell me that I'm talking nonsense! 

Jim

[Talon]

Your correct, nothing done to timing, well back to the drawing board! 

[Twolanerider]

Yes, but I don't see that there's a problem with the AFR that's causing the pinging, which is all that the TMAT is learning and adjusting. It's a timing thing, not a mixture thing, and the timing needs to be retarded under the circumstances where it pings.  The TMAT can't do that.....

Or perhaps I'm just stoopid of course - ready and willing for somebody to tell me that I'm talking nonsense! 

Jim

(sarcasm mode=on)

Dunno Jim, a baseline of 13:1 out of the box seems dangerously lean to me.  So it must need more fuel.

(sarcasm mode=off)

[Rhino]

Hey Jim,

I have also seen some other things that were quite odd. I heard of one bike that ran worse the more they rode. It was a stumper until it was diagnosed as the leads were connected in the wrong order, front to rear instead of front to front.  I belive there is a list. This is NOT to say this is you in any way, but I am pressing Z to have an updated website with a good FAQ and troubleshooter, listing ALL of the anomolies.  Did you note the test for the sensors? When linked and bike not running, look at the AFR front and rear. If it reads 19.2 or so, it means both sensors are good. If not, one is bad. Simple test.  As Talon said, a thourough cleaning is another.   FWIW, taking out everything, offsets, CLRs, IAC's, and reading it after, making sure the map is pure and stock, and then relaoding, is another thing to try.  Then, after reload, doing another read, and intitializing is another.   But normally, that is not neccessary.  I know there is a solution.  Look, I make no bones about the fact that the autotuner is something that facsinates me, but now I do have an advantage. I was able to visit Zippers and really see how things work.  Did not see ONE example of an impossible scenario that turned out bad. There was always a solution.  That is the frustrating part for sure.  Long distance is tough sometimes, the engineers cannot sit by your side and see deep within the program, or look at the screen and fix it. **  But the system does work well.  And I saw over and over installs being completed with both open loop and closed loops systems. Each time the results were as expected.  My frustration comes from hearing people dissing Zippers. It is really not their intention to not respond, and piss off people. They are quite the sincere techno geeks, and do not look at this as anything other than a upscale high tech solution to inherent stock and aftermarket performance solutions.

** I wish they had a program that could be long distance diagnosis live. I'll make a note, that would be cool, maybe it can be done, maybe you can be the guinea pig.  I will be making an inquiry.


Rhino

Thanks Ron.  We don't really get bad gas here - and in any case I always use Shell V-Power, which is expensive, but worth it (98 RON).  The exhaust and inlets were done by me, and I know there are no leaks; my fuel filter will not be clogged.  All I've done to the map is, as you've suggested, make it slightly richer at tickover revs, and slow the tickover down when it gets to around 300 degrees.  But the inescapable facts are that 1) the rear cylinder runs too hot, turning the rear muffler gold in little over 100 miles. 2) within a few minutes of getting stuck in slow traffic (and the weather is cool here, around  60 degrees) my engine light is on, and the tickover is slowed. 3) When the weather IS hot, like on my trip, any attempt to roll on the throttle, even lightly, makes the bike ping worse than I've ever heard.

That suggests to me that 1) Zippers not using the knock/Ion sensor is a big mistake - unbelievable even 2) the base map is not close enough - because the TMAT can't auto-adjust the timing 3) they must know that, but we haven't seen any new base maps for a long time. Even HD, with the SERT, have a map that's for the most common configuration, just like mine - 110", SE filter, SE mufflers - but Zippers don't. 

I'm an open minded guy, and I'd love to love Zippers too, but the "AutoTune" doesn't; it adjusts fuel, automatically, but that isn't "tune" - it's half the story. And I - along with most folks - can't ride my bike to Zippers for them to iron out the bugs manually; that's why I wanted - and expected - it to "autotune", not just "automix".  I don't want to have to play around with the maps manually - if I'd wanted to do that, I'd have bought a PCIII and got the bike on a dyno. I'm not looking for that last ounce of torque or HP, I just want a bike that runs properly, making the best of the engine, or close to it.

I'm still using the TMAT, and want to continue to do so, but I can't unless they fix the problems, and all I want is some sign that they are doing so, for those of us with near stock bikes, not the minority with wild builds.

 

Jim

[Eqcons]

(sarcasm mode=on)

Dunno Jim, a baseline of 13:1 out of the box seems dangerously lean to me.  So it must need more fuel.

(sarcasm mode=off)

   Now now, Don!  Must say I was surprised that the TMAT aims for 13.1:1 (from memory?) as opposed to the stock ECM 14.6:1 (again from memory), which will account for the increase in gas consumption, but I suppose should keep it running cooler.


Jim

[Eqcons]

Hey Jim,

I have also seen some other things that were quite odd. I heard of one bike that ran worse the more they rode. It was a stumper until it was diagnosed as the leads were connected in the wrong order, front to rear instead of front to front.  I belive there is a list. This is NOT to say this is you in any way, but I am pressing Z to have an updated website with a good FAQ and troubleshooter, listing ALL of the anomolies.  Did you note the test for the sensors? When linked and bike not running, look at the AFR front and rear. If it reads 19.2 or so, it means both sensors are good. If not, one is bad. Simple test.  As Talon said, a thourough cleaning is another.   FWIW, taking out everything, offsets, CLRs, IAC's, and reading it after, making sure the map is pure and stock, and then relaoding, is another thing to try.  Then, after reload, doing another read, and intitializing is another.   But normally, that is not neccessary.  I know there is a solution.  Look, I make no bones about the fact that the autotuner is something that facsinates me, but now I do have an advantage. I was able to visit Zippers and really see how things work.  Did not see ONE example of an impossible scenario that turned out bad. There was always a solution.  That is the frustrating part for sure.  Long distance is tough sometimes, the engineers cannot sit by your side and see deep within the program, or look at the screen and fix it. **  But the system does work well.  And I saw over and over installs being completed with both open loop and closed loops systems. Each time the results were as expected.  My frustration comes from hearing people dissing Zippers. It is really not their intention to not respond, and piss off people. They are quite the sincere techno geeks, and do not look at this as anything other than a upscale high tech solution to inherent stock and aftermarket performance solutions.

** I wish they had a program that could be long distance diagnosis live. I'll make a note, that would be cool, maybe it can be done, maybe you can be the guinea pig.  I will be making an inquiry.


Rhino

I'm certain that the installation is *perfect*, Ron.  I'll recheck though, and I'll zero the map and reload, go through the entire thing again, and I'll check what the AFR is with the engine off.   But I have to say that, since I'm not the only person with the pinging problem - not by a LONG way, as you can tell from here and V-Twin Forum - I doubt it will help. Happy to try anything though.  I'm still of the opinion though, that since the TMAT doesn't use the Ion sensor, and thus can't adjust the timing on the fly, it's going to be wrong for every bike at some point as the ambient temperature changes.   Sure, as you say, there's always a solution - but that seems to be manual  tuning, which is not what I paid all the extra money for.

Hear what you say about them having no intention not to respond or piss people off, but they DO do that; correct me if I'm wrong (happy to be corrected!) but it seems all they are interested in is sales; the place is always short staffed, because most of them are off to some rally or another to sell more product. Nothing wrong with wanting to sell, sell, sell - but they should NOT do that at the expense of those who have paid, paid paid, and need PROMPT - very, very prompt - attention.

Because the timing on the base map that is supposedly suitable for my bike is plainly way off, and my bike has a very common spec, (hence, I guess the many people with pinging problems), instead of heading off to Sturgis or wherever, they should be coming up with better maps, or even better, making the TMAT pay attention to what the Ion sensor is trying to tell it. How long since we saw a new map?  The new firmware is said to fix SOME of the spurious log entries, such as the false rev limit hits, but not all of them.  Shouldn't they stay home and fix that sort of thing instead of heading off to rallies?

I'd be delighted to be a guinea pig for improvements, and I'm happy to stick with them, giving it all my best shot to make it work as I have a right to expect, but I need to see some progress to regain confidence, especially as I can't go there!   Too many people with pinging problems = too many maps that are wrong, in my simple view.   I don't want the flashy new version of Smartlink IV to give me access to more things to adjust, I want it to AUTOTUNE like it says on the tin, so my bike runs well and my engine - a touchy subject for me - is safe. I don't need that last HP, I don't need the last ounce of torque, and I don't want to play with timing, charts, settings.....  That is not why I bought the TMAT, and I want to like it, like Zippers, to be a fan of both. 

Jim

[Eqcons]

I see among the differences between the old and new versions of SmartLink that Jacques has kindly pointed out there is:

Engine temp alarm threshold = 350.12

added to the new version.  I'm guessing that's the temp the engine light will come on at.  Less of a worry if it doesn't come on so often, of coursem but panic when it does, as it will still be getting hot.....

Jim

[Hoist!]

I'm certain that the installation is *perfect*, Ron.  I'll recheck though, and I'll zero the map and reload, go through the entire thing again, and I'll check what the AFR is with the engine off.   But I have to say that, since I'm not the only person with the pinging problem - not by a LONG way, as you can tell from here and V-Twin Forum - I doubt it will help. Happy to try anything though.  I'm still of the opinion though, that since the TMAT doesn't use the Ion sensor, and thus can't adjust the timing on the fly, it's going to be wrong for every bike at some point as the ambient temperature changes.   Sure, as you say, there's always a solution - but that seems to be manual  tuning, which is not what I paid all the extra money for.

Hear what you say about them having no intention not to respond or piss people off, but they DO do that; correct me if I'm wrong (happy to be corrected!) but it seems all they are interested in is sales; the place is always short staffed, because most of them are off to some rally or another to sell more product. Nothing wrong with wanting to sell, sell, sell - but they should NOT do that at the expense of those who have paid, paid paid, and need PROMPT - very, very prompt - attention.

Because the timing on the base map that is supposedly suitable for my bike is plainly way off, and my bike has a very common spec, (hence, I guess the many people with pinging problems), instead of heading off to Sturgis or wherever, they should be coming up with better maps, or even better, making the TMAT pay attention to what the Ion sensor is trying to tell it. How long since we saw a new map?  The new firmware is said to fix SOME of the spurious log entries, such as the false rev limit hits, but not all of them.  Shouldn't they stay home and fix that sort of thing instead of heading off to rallies?

I'd be delighted to be a guinea pig for improvements, and I'm happy to stick with them, giving it all my best shot to make it work as I have a right to expect, but I need to see some progress to regain confidence, especially as I can't go there!   Too many people with pinging problems = too many maps that are wrong, in my simple view.   I don't want the flashy new version of Smartlink IV to give me access to more things to adjust, I want it to AUTOTUNE like it says on the tin, so my bike runs well and my engine - a touchy subject for me - is safe. I don't need that last HP, I don't need the last ounce of torque, and I don't want to play with timing, charts, settings.....  That is not why I bought the TMAT, and I want to like it, like Zippers, to be a fan of both. 

Jim

Jim, that's about the best and fairest assessment of the TMAT situation I've heard. You summed up the TMAT owner's experience spot on from the stories I hear. I continue to maintain that a properly tuned engine is required for it to work correctly. And dropping a canned map in can't be the solution. You probably don't have many qualified TMax tuners over there. No 2 engines are the same and motors need to be properly tuned to have the right map for each individual engine. You could get lucky and have one work. But that's no way to go about having an engine setup. Only tuning and measurement can insure a perfect, correct map for each individual engine. You have every right to feel as you do, since the product was sold under false expectations, then not backed-up after the sale. Good luck and get you new engine tuned properly. You won't regret it!

Hoist!

[Eqcons]

Thanks Howie.  I really do want to give these guys a fair chance to make it good, I WANT it to be good.  But I have to care about my motor too!

Jim

[Hoist!]

Thanks Howie.  I really do want to give these guys a fair chance to make it good, I WANT it to be good.  But I have to care about my motor too!

Jim

Jim, you need your bike running well, especially after replacing your engine. You want to ride with confidence and be smiling because your bike is running so well. Get that TMax tuned by a real tuner and move on with your life. If you can't find someone to tune the TMax, sorry to say, get rid of it! How much time and effort is this really worth on your part? Stop being miserable waiting for Zippers to help you. It's like beating your head against a wall. It feels good when you stop! Good luck Jim. Hoist!

[Talon]

Kinda like that saying," Anger is a living thing, feed it, it will grow, starve it and it will die!"   

[Eqcons]

Jim, you need your bike running well, especially after replacing your engine. You want to ride with confidence and be smiling because your bike is running so well. Get that TMax tuned by a real tuner and move on with your life. If you can't find someone to tune the TMax, sorry to say, get rid of it! How much time and effort is this really worth on your part? Stop being miserable waiting for Zippers to help you. It's like beating your head against a wall. It feels good when you stop! Good luck Jim. Hoist!

Yup.  Did a friend's identical spec bike at the weekend, same headers, same mufflers, same filter as mine, but I supplied a SERT for that one.  Once I see how his goes with the SERT map, I may well jump ship.

Jim

[Rhino]

Each time I find out a little more.   Here is a couple more to add to the list for diagnostics. 

Harley changed their cam to a 2 piece, whereas they now have a gear pressed on the shaft. I recall hearing about this stuff awhile ago. Some are actually welding the gear to eliminate shifting and turning. 

Well, Zippers has received a few calls from dealers, where this was the case. The gear actually had slipped just enough to through off the timing, and hence the difficulty with the stock base maps from Zippers. So no matter what one does, the base stock map will not be able to correct, and at that point, the tuning would have to be custom, and why? Because the base map is trying to correct a different combination. So, the timing is actually way off in the motor, and the map was designed to be running with a motor with the proper timing points to begin with.

If the SERT application is used, think of it this way. If the motor timing is off, the SERT, which is all manual anyway, would be tuned to offset the twisted timing gear.  So, in any event, you may get the bike to run ok, but in all cases, not at the specification for power it was designed to see.

A most recent adventure again, was not the fault of the Thuundermax. Zippers in the past week opened up 2 110's, and found what could have been a disaster waiting to happen on new bikes. The Cylinder bolts were not torqued properly, loose, and created quite the leak. Talk about QC.

So, the more I see a variety of issues, the more suspect I become of the QC on our motors being at fault. Like I said before, there is always a solution, but the problem seems to not stem from the TMAX, but from the motor issues one way or the other. TMAX was not designed to really cover up the problems, but that option does work with PC and SERT due to its capabilities. Personally, I would not want to mask any problem. 

This was an interesting day for sure, each time gathering a bit more info from Z.   

My quest for answers is ongoing, and as I find out about things, I share them. So far, yes, I am apparently one of those that has not experienced problems, but each time, it seems like the problems are for reasons other than the TMAX.

Lastly, the firmware update should be available next day or so. It will allow functionality for a things mentioned below. Timing and AFR maps may be used with the new software, as before, a new format is available for timing pages. The firmware will allow a few nice things, including:

Decel Setting changes for Pops and sputters that occur on some branded pipes.
Diagnostics readings from the odometer window.
A couple of other diagnostic abilities I am not exact on yet, so they go unmentioned.

Rhino(justtryingtohelpandlearn)

[Chief]

Each time I find out a little more.   Here is a couple more to add to the list for diagnostics. 

Harley changed their cam to a 2 piece, whereas they now have a gear pressed on the shaft. I recall hearing about this stuff awhile ago. Some are actually welding the gear to eliminate shifting and turning. 

Well, Zippers has received a few calls from dealers, where this was the case. The gear actually had slipped just enough to through off the timing, and hence the difficulty with the stock base maps from Zippers. So no matter what one does, the base stock map will not be able to correct, and at that point, the tuning would have to be custom, and why? Because the base map is trying to correct a different combination. So, the timing is actually way off in the motor, and the map was designed to be running with a motor with the proper timing points to begin with.

If the SERT application is used, think of it this way. If the motor timing is off, the SERT, which is all manual anyway, would be tuned to offset the twisted timing gear.  So, in any event, you may get the bike to run ok, but in all cases, not at the specification for power it was designed to see.

A most recent adventure again, was not the fault of the Thuundermax. Zippers in the past week opened up 2 110's, and found what could have been a disaster waiting to happen on new bikes. The Cylinder bolts were not torqued properly, loose, and created quite the leak. Talk about QC.

So, the more I see a variety of issues, the more suspect I become of the QC on our motors being at fault. Like I said before, there is always a solution, but the problem seems to not stem from the TMAX, but from the motor issues one way or the other. TMAX was not designed to really cover up the problems, but that option does work with PC and SERT due to its capabilities. Personally, I would not want to mask any problem. 

This was an interesting day for sure, each time gathering a bit more info from Z.   

My quest for answers is ongoing, and as I find out about things, I share them. So far, yes, I am apparently one of those that has not experienced problems, but each time, it seems like the problems are for reasons other than the TMAX.

Lastly, the firmware update should be available next day or so. It will allow functionality for a things mentioned below. Timing and AFR maps may be used with the new software, as before, a new format is available for timing pages. The firmware will allow a few nice things, including:

Decel Setting changes for Pops and sputters that occur on some branded pipes.
Diagnostics readings from the odometer window.
A couple of other diagnostic abilities I am not exact on yet, so they go unmentioned.

Rhino(justtryingtohelpandlearn)

Rhino,

Lindsay Lohan called. She's looking for a good disaster recovery person. Are you interested? 

[Eqcons]

Each time I find out a little more.   Here is a couple more to add to the list for diagnostics. 

Harley changed their cam to a 2 piece, whereas they now have a gear pressed on the shaft. I recall hearing about this stuff awhile ago. Some are actually welding the gear to eliminate shifting and turning. 

Well, Zippers has received a few calls from dealers, where this was the case. The gear actually had slipped just enough to through off the timing, and hence the difficulty with the stock base maps from Zippers. So no matter what one does, the base stock map will not be able to correct, and at that point, the tuning would have to be custom, and why? Because the base map is trying to correct a different combination. So, the timing is actually way off in the motor, and the map was designed to be running with a motor with the proper timing points to begin with.

If the SERT application is used, think of it this way. If the motor timing is off, the SERT, which is all manual anyway, would be tuned to offset the twisted timing gear.  So, in any event, you may get the bike to run ok, but in all cases, not at the specification for power it was designed to see.

A most recent adventure again, was not the fault of the Thuundermax. Zippers in the past week opened up 2 110's, and found what could have been a disaster waiting to happen on new bikes. The Cylinder bolts were not torqued properly, loose, and created quite the leak. Talk about QC.

So, the more I see a variety of issues, the more suspect I become of the QC on our motors being at fault. Like I said before, there is always a solution, but the problem seems to not stem from the TMAX, but from the motor issues one way or the other. TMAX was not designed to really cover up the problems, but that option does work with PC and SERT due to its capabilities. Personally, I would not want to mask any problem. 

This was an interesting day for sure, each time gathering a bit more info from Z.   

My quest for answers is ongoing, and as I find out about things, I share them. So far, yes, I am apparently one of those that has not experienced problems, but each time, it seems like the problems are for reasons other than the TMAX.

Lastly, the firmware update should be available next day or so. It will allow functionality for a things mentioned below. Timing and AFR maps may be used with the new software, as before, a new format is available for timing pages. The firmware will allow a few nice things, including:

Decel Setting changes for Pops and sputters that occur on some branded pipes.
Diagnostics readings from the odometer window.
A couple of other diagnostic abilities I am not exact on yet, so they go unmentioned.

Rhino(justtryingtohelpandlearn)

Thanks again, Ron.  Yes, I've heard mention of the pressed gear slipping too (surprised it's not keyed!). But the pinging problem doesn't seem to be unique to such bikes, AND - it's not present all the time; it requires (in my experience, and others) that the ambient temperature is high.  And my old engine and this are identical in behaviour- that rear cylinder is too hot too fast.

I'd love to find somebody using the TMAT with an *identical* setup to mine, who is happy, get them to save their map and let me load it.  If mine was still pinging, it has to be a problem with my bike or TMAT, or O2 sensors.

I still think that the problem can't be sorted properly without the TMAT being able to dynamically change timing to set the timing;  what's good on a fixed timing map at 60 degrees ambient at sea level is not going to be right at 100 degrees or 6000 feet, and nothing can alter that fact.

We'll see how the new firmware goes, and zero everything and start with a clean map. 

Jim