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[djkak]

I am interested in asking anyone with head gasket leakage to inspect the cylinder liner for movement and report back the result of the inspection when possible.

When checking for cylinder liner movement I find it easier to look at the cylinder base. In cases where the liner has only moved a couple of thousandths it may be easier to try and catch the protruding edge of the liner at the cylinder base with the business end of a single edge razor blade.

Sadunbar,

If you still have your cylinders, would you be able to inspect them and report back on whether the liners show any sign of movement? If the liners have moved pictures would be great. TIA.

djkak

[rednectum]

subscribing!

[sadunbar]

I am interested in asking anyone with head gasket leakage to inspect the cylinder liner for movement and report back the result of the inspection when possible.

When checking for cylinder liner movement I find it easier to look at the cylinder base. In cases where the liner has only moved a couple of thousandths it may be easier to try and catch the protruding edge of the liner at the cylinder base with the business end of a single edge razor blade.

Sadunbar,

If you still have your cylinders, would you be able to inspect them and report back on whether the liners show any sign of movement? If the liners have moved pictures would be great. TIA.

djkak

There is no indication of liner movement on either cylinder - passes the visual test and the razor blade test.  Actually looked at them under a scope - they have not moved...

Scott

[rednectum]

dont hold back djkak---------------whats your theory?

[djkak]

dont hold back djkak---------------whats your theory?

I’ve been hearing a little buzz around the water cooler about cylinder liner movement. I have not seen any indication myself, and the water cooler buzz isn’t what I consider extremely reliable; maybe they keep beer in the thing. Anyway I thought that I would lob this out there and see what happens.

I thought of Sadunbar since he is repairing his machine himself and has a shop. Sadunbar performed a thorough and conscientious inspection of his cylinders which came up negative.

A moving liner would be an easy explanation and I felt that verifying this one way or the other will add value and help to narrow the focus on the root cause.

Just for grins, anyone that has an opportunity to get back into the shop should perform the razor blade test on the cylinder base and report the result back to the group. Pictures would be great if you can; actually the report is practically worthless without them! ....sombody stop me...

djkak

[ultrafxr]

I never saw my cylinders but my dealer said that there was movement between the cyl and the sleeve in both instances my rear cyl was replaced.  If I should be unfortunate enough to have another repeat I'll definitely ask to see and inspect the cyl myself.

[9 1/2 Beers]

 CVO / Twin Cam / Re: leaking head gasket fix  on: October 10, 2007, 12:48:47 PM 
I was told that the 88-92 evo's had sleeves shifting problems, i was told 07's have the same problem and they can't get the head gasket to smash and i don't know why it's just the rear as opposed to both cylinders.  i believe there will be a new jug and new head gasket. although i heard they may not change the gasket part #.  just what i heard from what i think is a reliable source

i can only hope that this will fix this damn problem

i maybe the first to have a third motor in my bike !!!!

take it for what it's worth, i can not confirm this but i don't think anyone else can either   

[rednectum]

yall reckon this is the reason the cylinders are on national backorder??

maybe they arent BO at all, maybe they are being built by another contractor to correct the problem.

[skreminegul07]

yall reckon this is the reason the cylinders are on national backorder??

maybe they arent BO at all, maybe they are being built by another contractor to correct the problem.

A different hut in a different village?  Knowing China, they will execute the guy that's in charge of making these quality parts.
 

[SPIDERMAN]

I am interested in asking anyone with head gasket leakage to inspect the cylinder liner for movement and report back the result of the inspection when possible.

When checking for cylinder liner movement I find it easier to look at the cylinder base. In cases where the liner has only moved a couple of thousandths it may be easier to try and catch the protruding edge of the liner at the cylinder base with the business end of a single edge razor blade.

Sadunbar,

If you still have your cylinders, would you be able to inspect them and report back on whether the liners show any sign of movement? If the liners have moved pictures would be great. TIA.

djkak

djkak
        I've never heard of this happening without the head gaskets getting blown out. Even if it's only a few thousandths, the movement against the heads is just enough to cause a head gasket to leak and once they do if you don't shut the bike down almost instantly, they blow out. S&S had some issues with their cylinders doing this a few years back. I don't know if they put out a recall, but if you had one come loose, S&S would pay for the shop work at one of their licensed dealers. Cycle Visions did a complete top end for a bro of mine and S&S picked up the tab. Ok, I'm wandering a bit. The point is, I don't see how the liner could move without the heads moving as well. IMHO  Anyway, since the liners are press fit, I can see it happening if they aren't being staked properly.

B B

[sblade1948]

Dealer I go  to said today that it can happen. But you will know instantly when it happens. Loss of compression rough idle etc.

[djkak]

djkak
        I've never heard of this happening without the head gaskets getting blown out. Even if it's only a few thousandths, the movement against the heads is just enough to cause a head gasket to leak and once they do if you don't shut the bike down almost instantly, they blow out. S&S had some issues with their cylinders doing this a few years back. I don't know if they put out a recall, but if you had one come loose, S&S would pay for the shop work at one of their licensed dealers. Cycle Visions did a complete top end for a bro of mine and S&S picked up the tab. Ok, I'm wandering a bit. The point is, I don't see how the liner could move without the heads moving as well. IMHO  Anyway, since the liners are press fit, I can see it happening if they aren't being staked properly.

B B

You’re right Spiderman, when the liner shifts reducing the clamp load on the head gasket fire ring, the game is over. The head continues to be supported by the aluminum cylinder, but the clamp load on the fire ring is lost as the liner moves down the cylinder into the crankcase.

The liners are cast into the aluminum cylinder at the Foundry when the cylinder blank is made. I am sure that bonding the iron liner into an aluminum cylinder is a delicate process that requires careful preparation and precise temperature control; maybe some incense and a wicked chant; possibly a mask and a little dance; don’t know exactly. A press fit alone between the aluminum cylinder and iron liner would not be adequate, especially over the long term because of the different expansion rates of these materials.

Regarding S&S, when the EVO Sidewinder kits first came out, the head gaskets were not sourced through a large, mainstream Vendor like James. For several months S&S supplied head gaskets made out of a red fiber material which did not have a steel fire ring. Instead of a fire ring, S&S machined a step into the head gasket surface, allowing the cylinder liner to protrude above the gasket surface approximately 0.010” (10 thou). The step was intended to apply additional clamp load to the gasket around the cylinder’s liner.

These red gaskets would fail almost immediately and the folks with these machines were forced to run them until S&S came up with a better gasket (sounds familiar). The next iteration of head gasket was a Teflon coated, fire ring equipped gasket that I believe was supplied by James. This gasket was the answer and took care of the leakers.

For years S&S continued to manufacture the cylinders with the liner protruding above the gasket surface, they may still make them that way; I haven’t looked in a while. Over time the protruding liner was eventually forced down through the cylinder and into the crankcase. After seeing the first couple of machines come back with this condition, I began cutting the top of the liner off flush with the head gasket surface prior to installing the cylinders. This would buy additional time before the liner finally let go. I probably saw a half a dozen 96” EVO Sidewinders with loose liners; I have never seen an EVO Sidewinder built prior to 1997 with more than 30,000 miles that has not had issues with loose cylinder liners.

A Foundry issue would explain the 110’s head gasket leakage but you would think that there would be issues with the other cylinders as well; especially if the problem extends across a broad date range.

I’m going to lay in the weeds a little longer and wait for someone to confirm that they have experienced some movement with a cylinder liner; hopefully with some good photos.

Again Spiderman, I hope your situation at home remains stable, with you and your family out of harm’s way.

djkak

[SPIDERMAN]

djkak
       Now that's talking tech brother. Man you almost gave me a woodie you got into that so good. 

Thanks for taking the time to go into the detail. I for one appreciate it 

Things are stable here (for now) just brought LD home. Thanks

B B

[djkak]

djkak
       Now that's talking tech brother. Man you almost gave me a woodie you got into that so good. 

Thanks for taking the time to go into the detail. I for one appreciate it 

Things are stable here (for now) just brought LD home. Thanks

B B

That has always been one of my stretch goals; thanks Spiderman, that’s really great; although I’m really a much bigger fan of Buzz Lightyear.

djkak

[skreminegul07]

You’re right Spiderman, when the liner shifts reducing the clamp load on the head gasket fire ring, the game is over. The head continues to be supported by the aluminum cylinder, but the clamp load on the fire ring is lost as the liner moves down the cylinder into the crankcase.

The liners are cast into the aluminum cylinder at the Foundry when the cylinder blank is made. I am sure that bonding the iron liner into an aluminum cylinder is a delicate process that requires careful preparation and precise temperature control; maybe some incense and a wicked chant; possibly a mask and a little dance; don’t know exactly. A press fit alone between the aluminum cylinder and iron liner would not be adequate, especially over the long term because of the different expansion rates of these materials.

Regarding S&S, when the EVO Sidewinder kits first came out, the head gaskets were not sourced through a large, mainstream Vendor like James. For several months S&S supplied head gaskets made out of a red fiber material which did not have a steel fire ring. Instead of a fire ring, S&S machined a step into the head gasket surface, allowing the cylinder liner to protrude above the gasket surface approximately 0.010” (10 thou). The step was intended to apply additional clamp load to the gasket around the cylinder’s liner.

These red gaskets would fail almost immediately and the folks with these machines were forced to run them until S&S came up with a better gasket (sounds familiar). The next iteration of head gasket was a Teflon coated, fire ring equipped gasket that I believe was supplied by James. This gasket was the answer and took care of the leakers.

For years S&S continued to manufacture the cylinders with the liner protruding above the gasket surface, they may still make them that way; I haven’t looked in a while. Over time the protruding liner was eventually forced down through the cylinder and into the crankcase. After seeing the first couple of machines come back with this condition, I began cutting the top of the liner off flush with the head gasket surface prior to installing the cylinders. This would buy additional time before the liner finally let go. I probably saw a half a dozen 96” EVO Sidewinders with loose liners; I have never seen an EVO Sidewinder built prior to 1997 with more than 30,000 miles that has not had issues with loose cylinder liners.

A Foundry issue would explain the 110’s head gasket leakage but you would think that there would be issues with the other cylinders as well; especially if the problem extends across a broad date range.

I’m going to lay in the weeds a little longer and wait for someone to confirm that they have experienced some movement with a cylinder liner; hopefully with some good photos.

Again Spiderman, I hope your situation at home remains stable, with you and your family out of harm’s way.

djkak

djkak,
Thanks for the great info.  I did not know of S&S issues.  I thought they were perfect.  Did this issue occur with both cylinders F&R?  That would be key to know.

Thanks

[djkak]

djkak,
Thanks for the great info.  I did not know of S&S issues.  I thought they were perfect.  Did this issue occur with both cylinders F&R?  That would be key to know.

Thanks

As I recall it was an issue with both cylinders. Keep in mind that the timeline was something like 1986 through 1997. I always felt that allowing the cylinder liner to rise above the head gasket surface was asking for trouble. I’m sure that it is challenging enough achieving an effective, lifetime bond between these materials without adding this kind of overhead. If the liner was somehow supported at the cylinder base, this approach might have worked better.

Another thing that may have contributed to the liner issues is the head bolt torque specification. As I recall, S&S was looking for 60+ ft lbs at the time. It was not unusual for these engines to pull cylinder studs from the crankcase.

Does anyone else know if S&S currently manufactures their cylinders in this manner? I would be interested in learning about their current 3 5/8” EVO cylinders as well as their Twin Cam offerings. How about their current head bolt torque spec?

djkak

[Keith_H]

Mine is in the shop for the second oil leak. The first weap started at 3000 miles, I just kept an eye on it and at 5000 it let loose and spit oil down the side of the bike and bags. The fix was to replace the gaskets. Now at 8000 it started to weap again so i took it right in. The shop has been great throught the whole thing (midamerica HD, Columbia, MO). The min they got it in they called HD techs and started going into the motor step by step. My shops tech showed me and let me feel the the lip where the sleeve had slipped. No razor blade needed, i could feel it with my fingernail. He put new jugs on order. Hopefully this will fix this problem but in my mind i doubt it. Just don't feel good that the new sleeves won't slip as well, i haven't heard or read anywhere where the new jugs were built any different than the old ones. I love the bike and won't trade it for anything but it is a little frustrating. 10 months, 8000 miles and motor torn apart for the second time. To make matters worst i'm waiting for the crank runout problem to happen. I'm sure that will be next.

[djkak]

.....The shop has been great throught the whole thing (midamerica HD, Columbia, MO)....My shops tech showed me and let me feel the the lip where the sleeve had slipped. No razor blade needed, i could feel it with my fingernail. He put new jugs on order. Hopefully this will fix this problem but in my mind i doubt it. Just don't feel good that the new sleeves won't slip as well, i haven't heard or read anywhere where the new jugs were built any different than the old ones.....To make matters worst i'm waiting for the crank runout problem to happen. I'm sure that will be next.

Thanks for the feedback. It may very well turn out that the approach used to anchor the 4.750” and 4.875” cylinder liner is somehow inadequate for the 4.00” bore cylinders; or that the 110’s use a different method to anchor the liner which is not working out. It is my sense that typically when an OEM liner moves within the cylinder, the issue relates to the quality of the bond between the iron and aluminum. In this case the source of the problem is with the Foundry producing the blanks.

This is speculative but I believe that if your crank is still straight it will probably remain that way. That’s not too personal is it?

djkak

[SPIDERMAN]

The only effective method of bonding aluminum to steel that I've ever seen is what we have in the bi-mettalic plate we use in the shipbuilding industry. Large plates of steel and aluminum are placed together with nitro between them and detonators set up to create a wave of explosion. The whole thing is buried under tons of gravel and set off. The end result when viewed sideways is a plate with a ripple or wave between the two dissimilar metals that locks them together almost like the loop and hook effect of velcro. I don't claim to be an expert, more shade tree mechanic than anything, but the only way I can envision the liner being held in the cylinder is an extremly tight hot/cold press fit and then staking.

B B

[SE08RK]

The only effective method of bonding aluminum to steel that I've ever seen is what we have in the bi-mettalic plate we use in the shipbuilding industry. Large plates of steel and aluminum are placed together with nitro between them and detonators set up to create a wave of explosion. The whole thing is buried under tons of gravel and set off. The end result when viewed sideways is a plate with a ripple or wave between the two dissimilar metals that locks them together almost like the loop and hook effect of velcro. I don't claim to be an expert, more shade tree mechanic than anything, but the only way I can envision the liner being held in the cylinder is an extremly tight hot/cold press fit and then staking.

B B

Dealing with an aluminum die casting which the cylinders are, the logical way to include the liners is to do it the old fashioned way: cast them in. Even then, the expansion rates are different so a proper keying method must be used. Doesn't make sense that these liners are slipping since they should have been keyed into the aluminum as the bearing races always have in early HD cases. What's going wrong with HD?

[djkak]

Dealing with an aluminum die casting which the cylinders are, the logical way to include the liners is to do it the old fashioned way: cast them in. Even then, the expansion rates are different so a proper keying method must be used. Doesn't make sense that these liners are slipping since they should have been keyed into the aluminum as the bearing races always have in early HD cases. What's going wrong with HD?

Although contrary to some information floating around elsewhere on the web, it is my firm understanding that H-D has used a “spiny lock” iron liner cast into their aluminum cylinders since 1984. I also understand that the process of bonding these dissimilar materials, while not uncommon, must be performed under precise, carefully controlled conditions or the bond will eventually fail. When the bond between the iron or steel and aluminum fails, the spiny lock and other anchor methods have proven over time to be insufficient by themselves to maintain the stability of the cast in material. Strong bonds together with an effective anchor mechanism are both essential for the long term reliability of these components.

djkak

[SE08RK]

Actually djkak, there is no bond. The reason for the keying. There is no known method to bond aluminum to iron. All that can be done to make a successful joint is to chemically clean the iron surface - with the keying method used - and within either cryogenics or an inert atmosphere cast the aluminum around the iron liner within the cylinder die. Aluminum alloy requires an atmospherically controlled casting method due to the damage done in air to alloying elements mainly by oxygen and any moisture. Some elements will not bond, and iron and aluminum are good examples, they can be made to 'stick' together under great pressure as BB explained and you can electroplate aluminum to steel but a mechanical bond must be a physical matrix.

Harley Davidson sand cast cases have used carbon steel bearing races keyed into the casting since they began using roller bearings. The technology is not new to cast iron or steel into an aluminum structure. They used a depleting atmosphere for their castings.

Looks like if these liners are sliding in the aluminum casting, either the cylinder has been extremely overheated and a separation in the joint has been created or the keying method is unsuccessful to start with. The physical matrix has failed... Germany used cast-in iron liners in their aircraft engines before WW2 - the late 30's early 40's...

[rednectum]

so SE08 and DJKAK, do yall think that if a typical 110 has never overheated, and if cams were changed to get CCP down to around 185----------that there would be no problem? or do yall think the problem would be there regardless, because of poor cylinder design?

is the 110 designed exactly like the tc88 and 96 motors? only bigger------or did hd have a better idea for 110 motors?

BTW, this thread is a great read, yall keep it going!

[skreminegul07]

so SE08 and DJKAK, do yall think that if a typical 110 has never overheated, and if cams were changed to get CCP down to around 185----------that there would be no problem? or do yall think the problem would be there regardless, because of poor cylinder design?

is the 110 designed exactly like the tc88 and 96 motors? only bigger------or did hd have a better idea for 110 motors?

BTW, this thread is a great read, yall keep it going!

My non engineering response is yes, a perfect storm, leaner conditions and less cylinder material to dissapate the heat and provide proper sealing surface.  I do not think the 113" cylinders would have this problem.  IMHO.

[SE08RK]

I believe it depends on who made the cylinders....are they all made at the same factory? This liner sliding problem isn't common to all 110's evidently so there must be a specific reason why some do and some don't. The overheating would have to have been so drastic that the rings would have lost their temper and along with other resulting piston damage, it would be a very sick running engine. The keying method has to be the problem as DJKAK says. But without destructive testing there is no way to know.

IMO, I would go ahead with the upgrades. Worst case result would be a blown head gasket due to the liner slip before any other catastrophic events could happen, so fore warning is detectable. I don't believe CCP would have much of an affect either.The increased bore size may even allow for better cooling since the heat conduction would be faster to the aluminum castings and cooling fins...



spell check can't do a thing with left out words!

[djkak]

Actually djkak, there is no bond. The reason for the keying. There is no known method to bond aluminum to iron. All that can be done to make a successful joint is to chemically clean the iron surface - with the keying method used - and within either cryogenics or an inert atmosphere cast the aluminum around the iron liner within the cylinder die. Aluminum alloy requires an atmospherically controlled casting method due to the damage done in air to alloying elements mainly by oxygen and any moisture. Some elements will not bond, and iron and aluminum are good examples, they can be made to 'stick' together under great pressure as BB explained and you can electroplate aluminum to steel but a mechanical bond must be a physical matrix.

Harley Davidson sand cast cases have used carbon steel bearing races keyed into the casting since they began using roller bearings. The technology is not new to cast iron or steel into an aluminum structure. They used a depleting atmosphere for their castings.

Looks like if these liners are sliding in the aluminum casting, either the cylinder has been extremely overheated and a separation in the joint has been created or the keying method is unsuccessful to start with. The physical matrix has failed... Germany used cast-in iron liners in their aircraft engines before WW2 - the late 30's early 40's...

Admittedly my belief in the existence of a bond between a steel insert cast into an aluminum housing is based on field experience rather than experience with the manufacturing process. I do have an interest in the manufacturing process, which I pursue from the comfort of a La-Z-boy. My enthusiasm for the manufacturing process may or may not add value to this discussion.

The contention that no known method exists to bond aluminum to iron is not consistent with the experience of folks who die cast aluminum. It is my understanding that the unintentional adhesion of aluminum to the ferrous die material is a substantial challenge for manufacturers. My understanding of the bond is that under specific conditions a reaction between the iron and aluminum results in the formation of a composite material, an intermetallic interface, which both iron and aluminum adhere to.

Whether this method or some other is purposefully used in manufacturing is ultimately the question. In my experience, evidence of a bond’s existence is strong in an aged, well used assembly showing no evidence of fluid incursion. Typical failures involve fluid (lubricant) incursion between the materials, working the joint apart over time as it is thermally cycled. Joints which have not failed show little or no evidence of fluid incursion when field tested by warming the component and inspecting the joint for fluid weepage.

Consider the application of the steel insert cast into the left crankcase. Prior to 1990 this insert supported the Big Twin’s left main bearing. With no bond between the crankcase and insert, the dissimilar expansion of the steel and aluminum would result in internal joint movement, wear and eventual fluid incursion.

If in this example no bond exists between the steel insert and aluminum crankcase, explaining the affect of joint expansion, the resulting wear and fluid incursion on the long term durability of the joint would likely be an interesting read.

djkak

[rednectum]

My understanding of the bond is that under specific conditions a reaction between the iron and aluminum results in the formation of a composite material, an intermetallic interface, which both iron and aluminum adhere to.


CRAZY GLUE?   lol. sorry DJ, i couldnt help it. very interesting read for sure!


dont stop now and leave us hanging.

[SE08RK]

Admittedly my belief in the existence of a bond between a steel insert cast into an aluminum housing is based on field experience rather than experience with the manufacturing process. I do have an interest in the manufacturing process, which I pursue from the comfort of a La-Z-boy. My enthusiasm for the manufacturing process may or may not add value to this discussion.

The contention that no known method exists to bond aluminum to iron is not consistent with the experience of folks who die cast aluminum. It is my understanding that the unintentional adhesion of aluminum to the ferrous die material is a substantial challenge for manufacturers. My understanding of the bond is that under specific conditions a reaction between the iron and aluminum results in the formation of a composite material, an intermetallic interface, which both iron and aluminum adhere to.

Whether this method or some other is purposefully used in manufacturing is ultimately the question. In my experience, evidence of a bond’s existence is strong in an aged, well used assembly showing no evidence of fluid incursion. Typical failures involve fluid (lubricant) incursion between the materials, working the joint apart over time as it is thermally cycled. Joints which have not failed show little or no evidence of fluid incursion when field tested by warming the component and inspecting the joint for fluid weepage.

Consider the application of the steel insert cast into the left crankcase. Prior to 1990 this insert supported the Big Twin’s left main bearing. With no bond between the crankcase and insert, the dissimilar expansion of the steel and aluminum would result in internal joint movement, wear and eventual fluid incursion.

If in this example no bond exists between the steel insert and aluminum crankcase, explaining the affect of joint expansion, the resulting wear and fluid incursion on the long term durability of the joint would likely be an interesting read.

djkak

You are a thinker and you are also thinking into the future just a bit. NASA is right now in the process of setting up metallurgy experiments in space to research these very subjects. Experiments of metal deposition are currently being set-up using an electron beam gun in space - a natural cryogenic chamber - to begin some extensive studies toward some of these types of alloys and surface adhesion problems that exist on the planet in our limited ability to create the correct isolated environment. The ability to alloy elements in space where temperature and vacuum work to change the eutectic properties of elements is going to be amazing - to put it mildly.

This laboratory where I work is involved in some of these studies and experiments as well. This lab has an accelerator that is one of the worlds only continuous electron beams - studies of matter down to quarks and their adhesion. The main ongoing research is into the area of "what is holding molecules and their sub parts together" or "what is the glue that is holding matter together"? (as soon as they know, teleportation will become a reality - "beam me up Scotty"). To go a little farther, I'm involved with the fabrication of the niobium cells that house and form the electron beam for the accelerator and our chief problem is forming the perfect cell (shaped like bells, electron beam welded together (we have a Sciaky Electron Beam Welding Chamber) at their equator and iris to form electron guns varying in size, shape and length). Niobium is very expensive but it is the only metal that becomes a superconductor at super low temperature (-465 degrees) so it becomes invisible to an electron. And, in our quest to develop an alloy of an easily formed metal along with the superconducting characteristic of niobium, some experiments with joining elements such as iron, aluminum, copper, titanium, and others together and to niobium.

Hoping not to bore you with a lot of detail, we have experimented with a bond of aluminum and different alloys of steel. They act like oil and water an will bond or mix to an extent but there always remains a junction boundary line that will separate when the article is subjected to a temperature change. Oil and water will mix when a wetting agent (soap) is entered into the mix. Steel and aluminum will also emulsify in a very controlled area of temperature but as soon as the temperature changes these elements begin their rejection and the molecules begin to coagulate into a glassy, super thin layer that has no malleability or elasticity so it becomes the boundary line that fails during cooling and solidifying. So, the 'emulsified' or alloyed metals lose their desirable qualities - such as emulsified oil and water - the water loses its surface tension and oil loses its ability to lubricate and then will begin to separate once again. The desire is to form a gradual emulsion or alloy from one material to the other and at present, we have not done this.

Some of the physicists at this lab could use these 'ideas' that folks think about and also would benefit with the 'is possible' attitude that some of us have. Science fiction becomes science fact when scientists forget about what they conceive as impossible.

I guess until there is a better way developed to join iron and aluminum, we will have to depend on some engineers' conception of a well designed 'spiny lock' and strive to prevent the joint from becoming a rattling, slipping and leaking mess. 

[Hoist!]

Holy crap, I was wrong! This is Rocket Science after all!

Hoist!

[skreminegul07]

Maybe NASA can help HD to use the ceramics used to keep the re entry heat from the space shuttle to keep the heat from the rider.  The shuttle and the 110 generate about the same amount of heat. 
 

[HogBreath]

I'm thinking...these guys were smarter in the first grade than most of us are now.

[Gunn Runner]

Hey djkak.....my rear cylinder was pulled last Thursday......liner slippage found and failure of head gasket.  MOCo has me on a list for back-order new cylinder.......and I've heard it takes several weeks to get parts due to high demand for replacement jugs......thanks for all the techno stuff.......when my Wife found out I was getting new jugs, she wanted a set also.......but I couldn't find a set of 38-Ds in the parts catalog !

[skreminegul07]

Hey djkak.....my rear cylinder was pulled last Thursday......liner slippage found and failure of head gasket.  MOCo has me on a list for back-order new cylinder.......and I've heard it takes several weeks to get parts due to high demand for replacement jugs......thanks for all the techno stuff.......when my Wife found out I was getting new jugs, she wanted a set also.......but I couldn't find a set of 38-Ds in the parts catalog !

Do you know if that means new design, part number, etc?  How will you know if it will be any better?  Have you opened up a customer service ticket?
Are they changing both cylinders?  Do you want a motor half new?  They will if you demand it.  Do it now cause you will wait once again for the second cylinder to be ordered.  Also make them check crank runout before you go through all this.  It's mostly appart right now, why wait?  If it's out of spec, you get a new motor.
What I am suggesting is exactly what I did and said and I got a new motor. 

PM me if you want to discuss this some more.

[Gunn Runner]

Ticket number issued by MoCo....MoCo has authorized replacement of back cylinder only....crank run out checked OK.....no signs of front cylinder leaking.......slippage documented on back cylinder .....dealer and MoCo are on same page.....I have an outstanding service manager and 15 year engine mechanic at Manatee Harley - Bradenton FL....top notch guys who build and re-build engines.....we're keeping good records..........they know their stuff.........l.........I'm good with the new back cylinder for now......if it happens again or I have the front cylinder fail, then me, the dealership and MoCo will discuss new engine or new bike. 

[Keith_H]

Not sure about this back order deal on the jugs. Shop ordered new jugs for mine last week and they came in 4 to 5 days. Is the back order for a new style of jug? Don't know, lack of open honesty by HD is some of the problem. Shop installed the new jugs that came in (same part number as the original ones) and took the bike for a couple of test rides. At the 50 mile point the new jugs started to leak again. They call HD and the HD tech rep came into the shop to look at it the next day, Wed. He had the shop tear it down and reinstall with new gaskets again but this time the shop was told to use this different bonding glue when they put it back together. I'm not much of a wrench but installing the same kind of jugs that have a problem to fix the problem didn't seem right to me but the shop is at the mercy of the HD reps to do what they direct. Now using "super glue" to fix the problem is even more suspect then the other solution. My take- there are 2 other 110 motors torn apart in my shop alone. A guy I ride with has one and his is leaking. That makes 4 in just my area that I have seen myself. This doesn't even include the fact that this is the second time for mine and one of the others that I know of. I have to believe HD knows they have a big problem with the jugs alone but either doesn't have the fix figured out yet or have it manufactured to distrubute yet and is just trying to bandaide the problem and get folks back on the road for another 3000 to 5000 miles till they get this worked out. The absolute only reasons i'm not jumping through my skin is that I love the bike and wouldn't trade it for the world, I have a Low Rider to ride during the Ultra's down time and the shop is a great bunch of guys that are doing everything they can to make this right. The situation is the pits but what can you do.

[Chief]

He had the shop tear it down and reinstall with new gaskets again but this time the shop was told to use this different bonding glue when they put it back together.

Copper Coat?

[Keith_H]

That sounds right but i think i was so taken back by the "super glue" thought running through my head I can't say for sure.

[Hoist!]

Not sure about this back order deal on the jugs. Shop ordered new jugs for mine last week and they came in 4 to 5 days. Is the back order for a new style of jug? Don't know, lack of open honesty by HD is some of the problem. Shop installed the new jugs that came in (same part number as the original ones) and took the bike for a couple of test rides. At the 50 mile point the new jugs started to leak again. They call HD and the HD tech rep came into the shop to look at it the next day, Wed. He had the shop tear it down and reinstall with new gaskets again but this time the shop was told to use this different bonding glue when they put it back together. I'm not much of a wrench but installing the same kind of jugs that have a problem to fix the problem didn't seem right to me but the shop is at the mercy of the HD reps to do what they direct. Now using "super glue" to fix the problem is even more suspect then the other solution. My take- there are 2 other 110 motors torn apart in my shop alone. A guy I ride with has one and his is leaking. That makes 4 in just my area that I have seen myself. This doesn't even include the fact that this is the second time for mine and one of the others that I know of. I have to believe HD knows they have a big problem with the jugs alone but either doesn't have the fix figured out yet or have it manufactured to distrubute yet and is just trying to bandaide the problem and get folks back on the road for another 3000 to 5000 miles till they get this worked out. The absolute only reasons i'm not jumping through my skin is that I love the bike and wouldn't trade it for the world, I have a Low Rider to ride during the Ultra's down time and the shop is a great bunch of guys that are doing everything they can to make this right. The situation is the pits but what can you do.

 

Glue??? There's not supposed to be glue for sealing Head Gaskets! The gasket design and the torquing of the heads should provide all the seal you need with this design. That is if they designed it right in the first place. I hope they are referring to using a Base Gaket and Gasket-Cinch to seal the base, instead of the O-Ring. Otherwise, I'm scared for you buddy! Get a second opinion if that's the case!

Hoist!

[SE08RK]

Copper coat gasket sealer (to name one similar) should not be used with an aluminum assembly due to the galvanic corrosion that will occur. This will cause large pits to be corroded from the surfaces of aluminum as I'm sure some of you have encountered. Normally where a gasket contacts an aluminum surface, Teflon or some other inert material is used.

[grc]

Perhaps it's time for H-D to consider the alternatives to their cast aluminum & iron sleeve parts.  Chrome plated aluminum bores have been around for decades (had them on my first two bikes in the 60's).  There is also Nikasil, or just high silicon carbide content aluminum alloys.  Many Japanese bikes utilize coated aluminum bores, as do some marine engines (ie. Mercury), and there have been more than a few in auto's as well (BMW, Jaguar, GM, etc).  As with all things in life, there are trade-offs involved.  But at least you wouldn't have to worry about sleeve creep, and the heat dissipation would be greatly improved as well.  The following article describes a new process developed by Yamaha in 2002 that shows a great deal of promise:  
http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/news/2002/07/31/innovation.html


Jerry

[djkak]

You are a thinker and you are also thinking into the future just a bit. NASA is right now in the process of setting up metallurgy experiments....

This laboratory where I work is involved in some of these studies and experiments as well. This lab has an accelerator that is one of the worlds only continuous electron beams - studies of matter down to quarks and their adhesion. The main ongoing research is into the area of "what is holding molecules and their sub parts together" or "what is the glue that is holding matter together"? (as soon as they know, teleportation will become a reality - "beam me up Scotty"). To go a little farther, I'm involved with the fabrication of the niobium cells....

Hoping not to bore you with a lot of detail, we have experimented with a bond of aluminum and different alloys of steel. They act like oil and water an will bond or mix to an extent but there always remains a junction boundary line that will separate when the article is subjected to a temperature change......

Some of the physicists at this lab could use these 'ideas' that folks think about and also would benefit with the 'is possible' attitude that some of us have. Science fiction becomes science fact when scientists forget about what they conceive as impossible.

I guess until there is a better way developed to join iron and aluminum, we will have to depend on some engineers' conception of a well designed 'spiny lock' and strive to prevent the joint from becoming a rattling, slipping and leaking mess. 

First of all, thank you very much for indulging me with this. This kind of interaction stimulates, entertains and provokes thought in interested readers. I hope that you enjoy the benefits of this exchange as much as I do.

My interest in this subject is driven by my long awareness of the somewhat fragile nature of the steel or iron union with aluminum. The desire to predict, with some reasonable degree of accuracy, the serviceability of select components relative to their expected life cycle drives my curiosity as well.

As you mentioned earlier, casting iron and steel into aluminum is commonly done; although more common in earlier H-D machinery than it is today. Prior to 1984 the cylinders were iron, but from ’48 through ’83, the Big Twin heads required steel inserts cast in for the head bolts. Early pistons had a steel strut cast into the skirt to control expansion. These were run in many models through 1982; the ’83 Shovel’s ran a Mahle piston which did not utilize the strut. The 4 speed BT transmission case had a single threaded insert cast into it, which was used to secure the right side of the housing to a frame tab. The breather trap in the early crankcases utilized a short pipe cast into the crankcase. Prior to 1990, the left and right main bearings were pressed into steel inserts which were cast into the crankcase, and the list goes on.

The example of the left main bearing insert in the previous post was offered because of its relevance. During the time that these inserts were cast into the crankcase, no union of this type used anywhere in the powertrain was more apt to fail than this one.

The attached photo allows us to take a trip back in time while we wait for the bugs to be completely worked out of the teleportation chamber.

The piston is ’37 to ’48, 74-Sidevalve. The cast in strut was used through 1982 on the Big Twin engines. The cylinder head inserts circa 1950 Panhead. Milwaukee took a very optimistic approach back then by presenting a large footprint flush with the gasket surface. Shovelhead inserts had a much smaller footprint and sometime around the middle ‘70’s Milwaukee finally recessed the inserts below the gasket surface. The left main insert pictured in the two bottom slots, is no longer flush with the crankcase material as it was when the crankcase was originally manufactured. This failure would be considered substantial. The oil passage visible in the lower left photo feeds the left main bearing. Engine oil must pass directly through the steel and aluminum joint at this point.

When the smoke clears at the end of the day, the presence or absence of a metallurgical bond between these specific components isn’t important; the union is what it is; whatever it is; having said that, I can’t shake this nagging sense of the existence of a bond between the steel or iron and aluminum.

The manufacturing issue mentioned in my previous post is referred to as “die soldering” (google it). There is a great deal of information available on the web regarding this phenomenon. If die soldering occurs between these dissimilar materials when not desired, what prevents this reaction to be used effectively in a controlled environment to strengthen the joining of steel and aluminum?

Thanks again SE08RK.

djkak

[rednectum]

man, this has become my favorite prime-time show!! please dont let the season end--------------------------------------------

[djkak]

Hey djkak.....my rear cylinder was pulled last Thursday......liner slippage found and failure of head gasket.  MOCo has me on a list for back-order new cylinder.......and I've heard it takes several weeks to get parts due to high demand for replacement jugs......thanks for all the techno stuff.......when my Wife found out I was getting new jugs, she wanted a set also.......but I couldn't find a set of 38-Ds in the parts catalog !

Did you get a chance to inspect the cylinder for yourself?

I might be able to come up with a set of 38 D’s but it would involve several “fittings” to get them adjusted....or not!!

[Hoist!]

Question please:

Why did we never hear about this on Porches or VW's? What do the Germans know about this that we don't? Why did HD have to go to Porsche to save their asses with the Evo? WTF are they really missing on these 110's?

Thanks for indulging my obvious inferior knowledge on this subject.

Hoist!

[SE08RK]

The manufacturing issue mentioned in my previous post is referred to as “die soldering” (google it). There is a great deal of information available on the web regarding this phenomenon. If die soldering occurs between these dissimilar materials when not desired, what prevents this reaction to be used effectively in a controlled environment to strengthen the joining of steel and aluminum?

Thanks again SE08RK.

djkak

djkak,

As long as the temperature isn't increased or decreased enough that the difference in the coefficient of expansion between the two metals isn't that great, the joint will remain very mechanical. Otherwise the two materials will stress toward the lessor expansive metal to the point that the junction is lost and a separation becomes very evident. From that extreme, the junction is totally lost because of the loss of thermal conductivity to equalize the temperature between the two.

Yes, Zolner, steel reinforced pistons have been around for decades and they are a very good example of utilizing a physical cross section of unequal thermal expansive materials to find an equilibrium. But, if you fracture the piston into pieces, it can readily be seen that the junction is purely mechanical. As with the bearing race inserts and thread inserts where in both cases the teeth or keying method is visible.

A welder friend of mine was working to fabricate a clutch cable bracket to be fastened to his HD four speed transmission case years ago. He hurriedly made a small bracket out of mild steel to suit his needs not realizing or thinking about what the material was and then proceeded to weld it onto the case. We were all amazed when we realized what he had done! The bracket was so well attached that it would ring when struck lightly with a metallic object like a small wrench. The joint was messy with aluminum snotted around the piece if steel but it was actually welded in place - but unfortunately, it failed in use. He reverted back to the old D&D clutch bracket. So, without having the knowledge or thought that it could not be done, he did it and that's why I say that we cannot have a closed mind about this stuff. I never found out if he used any sort of flux with the welding (TIG) and assumed that he didn't using the inert gas process, but if he used some kind of cleaning agent or flux, he may have hit on a substantial advance in welding....

Apparently, if the piece of iron is preheated to the molten temperature of the aluminum alloy being cast and injected, and the entire casting is allowed to cool very uniformly and slowly, the joint can be called something more than mechanical. The two materials must remain in absolute intimate contact so that a temperature change is maintained equally between the two. Then the dissimilar metal joint is good. This type of control is expensive as is any heat related treatment to a metal, but the benefits are worth the addition. These cylinders again, must have a flaw in either their key design or they were not treated properly during the casting process., and once the junction loses its intimate contact, the degrade in mechanical joint increases greatly - the junction reveals itself as purely mechanical. Thus these HD 'sleeved' cylinders slipping.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Thanks to you too djkak! Nice chat!

[SE08RK]

Question please:

Why did we never hear about this on Porches or VW's? What do the Germans know about this that we don't? Why did HD have to go to Porsche to save their asses with the Evo? WTF are they really missing on these 110's?

Thanks for indulging my obvious inferior knowledge on this subject.

Hoist!

Hoist,

I would venture to say that Porsche or VW or any other manufacturer of these types of cylinders use a flanged liner - more expensive to manufacture. None of the HD cylinder liners are flanged so they are relying totally on the keyed casting joint for stability and location of the liner. A flange on the liner would do two things: allow it to be totally renewed very readily (HD hates the thought of that!) and the liner would be stationary in the aluminum finned jug and held by an appropriately designed head gasket or compression joint between the head and cylinder 'assembly'. Also, the added expense of the mechanical fitment of the liner to the jug would reduce the bottom line for the money people at HD. These cylinders are probably made as cheaply as HD can possibly make them!

B.C.

Coming back in again: The engines that Porsche has helped HD with - mainly the Revolution, is water cooled and the liners are subject to a different set of circumstances - and I would bet that the liners are flanged. I also believe that HD will eventually make these 110's good. They are betting that when the cheapness problems of the build become evident that their warranty responsibility will be long gone - that's business. If they can be held responsible due to an ongoing legal battle over these design and cheapness flaws then the original owners of the 110's will have access to a class action suit, and remedy, against HD that includes us all. And you can bet that right now they are calculation which way will cost the least for them in the long run, fix them now or wait to settle with all of the purchasers of a 110.

[skreminegul07]

Hoist,

I would venture to say that Porsche or VW or any other manufacturer of these types of cylinders use a flanged liner - more expensive to manufacture. None of the HD cylinder liners are flanged so they are relying totally on the keyed casting joint for stability and location of the liner. A flange on the liner would do two things: allow it to be totally renewed very readily (HD hates the thought of that!) and the liner would be stationary in the aluminum finned jug and held by an appropriately designed head gasket or compression joint between the head and cylinder 'assembly'. Also, the added expense of the mechanical fitment of the liner to the jug would reduce the bottom line for the money people at HD. These cylinders are probably made as cheaply as HD can possibly make them!

B.C.

Coming back in again: The engines that Porsche has helped HD with - mainly the Revolution, is water cooled and the liners are subject to a different set of circumstances - and I would bet that the liners are flanged. I also believe that HD will eventually make these 110's good. They are betting that when the cheapness problems of the build become evident that their warranty responsibility will be long gone - that's business. If they can be held responsible due to an ongoing legal battle over these design and cheapness flaws then the original owners of the 110's will have access to a class action suit, and remedy, against HD that includes us all. And you can bet that right now they are calculation which way will cost the least for them in the long run, fix them now or wait to settle with all of the purchasers of a 110.

That's a given.  Something we can all agree on. 
I have a question:  maybe several
These leaks have been ongoing for over a year.  Some have had multiple gaskets changed.  I hate to ask, but why didn't any tech or HD tech support ask, notice, mention to check for the liner having moved?  I am assuming (gasp) that it is supposed to be flush.  When I was a mechanic, if a new motor had a head gasket leak and I changed the gasket I would look for a surface imperfection.  Definetely the second time around.  Isn't this basics?

 

[Chief]

That's a given.  Something we can all agree on. 
I have a question:  maybe several
These leaks have been ongoing for over a year.  Some have had multiple gaskets changed.  I hate to ask, but why didn't any tech or HD tech support ask, notice, mention to check for the liner having moved?  I am assuming (gasp) that it is supposed to be flush.  When I was a mechanic, if a new motor had a head gasket leak and I changed the gasket I would look for a surface imperfection.  Definetely the second time around.  Isn't this basics?

 

I think the difference here is that we're not talking about a 'blown' headgasket in the normal sense. What we're dealing with is the failure of the gasket outside of the crimp, not being able to keep the oil returning from the head contained. This head gasket is sealing two different animals here: 1) The combustion chamber, which I don't think we're seeing any problems with, and 2) The oil return passages, which is where we're seeing the problem.

The problem most are having with the -07A gasket is no longer dripping oil beow the exhaust port, but rather oil traveling laterally along the surface of the gasket and migrating down the stud pockets, which are outside the base o-ring, and then weeping out onto the deck between the engine and tranny.

The crimp area of the gasket is not faileing as far as I have heard, but instead it is the outer edges not doing their job properly.

[SE08RK]

Perhaps it's time for H-D to consider the alternatives to their cast aluminum & iron sleeve parts.  Chrome plated aluminum bores have been around for decades (had them on my first two bikes in the 60's).  There is also Nikasil, or just high silicon carbide content aluminum alloys.  Many Japanese bikes utilize coated aluminum bores, as do some marine engines (ie. Mercury), and there have been more than a few in auto's as well (BMW, Jaguar, GM, etc).  As with all things in life, there are trade-offs involved.  But at least you wouldn't have to worry about sleeve creep, and the heat dissipation would be greatly improved as well.  The following article describes a new process developed by Yamaha in 2002 that shows a great deal of promise: 
http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/news/2002/07/31/innovation.html


Jerry

Yes, I agree with this too. GM attempted the high silicon content aluminum cylinder block with the Vega four cylinder engine. The process was to etch the aluminum from the surface of the casting leaving the silicon as the wear surface then iron plate the aluminum piston. That means that the Yamaha method is not really that new - but the Japanese are famous for claiming a technology was their origination. The Nikasil system, which I have had experience with, is a very effecient one with fantastic longevity and very good wear characteristics as long as there is ample lubrication. The slightest deficiency in lube will cause scuffing in the bore and then shortly the total destruction of the cylinder, so there is no margin for error or forgiving of the system. Nikasil also has no small shop re-coating method since the process it very specialized in chemicals and safe handling methods - and the EPA would not allow a small company to do the process. The pistons for use in Nikasil bores must also be iron plated - another drawback. Hirth aircraft engines use Nikasil jugs that will last about 100 hours then must be changed - expensive! These jugs then go to the junk box for recycled aluminum - no recondition at all.

The farther toward making a one piece cylinder of aluminum or other high silicone alloy, the farther we go away from the ability for a small company or individual to have any sort of modification ability at all. At least with iron liners, a moderately prepared shop can bore a set of cylinders out and fit some pistons. The aluminum cylinders would have to be modified by inserting an iron liner and the manufacturing process would probably prevent this modification by going to a thinner section to start with.

I'll take a properly designed iron lined aluminum cylinder.

BC

[SE08RK]

I think the difference here is that we're not talking about a 'blown' headgasket in the normal sense. What we're dealing with is the failure of the gasket outside of the crimp, not being able to keep the oil returning from the head contained. This head gasket is sealing two different animals here: 1) The combustion chamber, which I don't think we're seeing any problems with, and 2) The oil return passages, which is where we're seeing the problem.

The problem most are having with the -07A gasket is no longer dripping oil beow the exhaust port, but rather oil traveling laterally along the surface of the gasket and migrating down the stud pockets, which are outside the base o-ring, and then weeping out onto the deck between the engine and tranny.

The crimp area of the gasket is not faileing as far as I have heard, but instead it is the outer edges not doing their job properly.

The earlier (smaller OD) cylinders didn't have the problem of slipping, so my guess is that the techs were in the dark about it. The likelihood of this is beyond the ordinary. Who would think that HD would stoop to cheapening up their engine parts to this point?

Good analogy of the head gasket leak and is very logical. The metallic ring in the head gasket, placed there as a compression seal, is ineffective if the friggin cylinder has dropped away from it! The rest of the gasket sealing surface is just that - surface. So oil drain back and residual cylinder oil trapped at the junction is allowed to creep to the edges. Drip...

BC

[Hoist!]

This is some really excellent stuff here. Keep it coming! Thanks a lot SE08RK, dj, Jerry, Phil, and Chuck!

Hoist!

[Chief]

The earlier (smaller OD) cylinders didn't have the problem of slipping, so my guess is that the techs were in the dark about it. The likelihood of this is beyond the ordinary. Who would think that HD would stoop to cheapening up their engine parts to this point?

Good analogy of the head gasket leak and is very logical. The metallic ring in the head gasket, placed there as a compression seal, is ineffective if the friggin cylinder has dropped away from it! The rest of the gasket sealing surface is just that - surface. So oil drain back and residual cylinder oil trapped at the junction is allowed to creep to the edges. Drip...

BC

But if the liner has dropped and the crimp has lost its clamping load, I would expect to have one nasty compression leak that would be much more noticeable than just the weeping oil we are seeing.

[SE08RK]

But if the liner has dropped and the crimp has lost its clamping load, I would expect to have one nasty compression leak that would be much more noticeable than just the weeping oil we are seeing.

The metal edge is basically to prevent the gasket material from eroding from the fuel, oil, and all that other flaming activity going on in the chamber. The metal crimp ring helps to some extent and probably the better the wider it is but the gasket material is what does the major sealing. The gasket is what the crimp is supported by. I believe the oil leak is part of a combination of occurences. Like maybe a non resilient, cheap assed head gasket that has taken a set and remains shrunk after the initial head torque and when the engine heats up and expands there in a loss of seal of the gasket - especially around the edges. So when the engine cools even slightly, oil is squeezed out from under the gasket next to the drain back hole at the lowest point of both heads - exhaust spring pocket on the head. The locater tubes at the drain holes in the mating surfaces of the head and jugs are not really tubes but pieces of rolled sheet stock so there is a crack along the seam side - not a sealed drain tube, a leak!

[Hoist!]

The metal edge is basically to prevent the gasket material from eroding from the fuel, oil, and all that other flaming activity going on in the chamber. The metal crimp ring helps to some extent and probably the better the wider it is but the gasket material is what does the major sealing. The gasket is what the crimp is supported by. I believe the oil leak is part of a combination of occurences. Like maybe a non resilient, cheap assed head gasket that has taken a set and remains shrunk after the initial head torque and when the engine heats up and expands there in a loss of seal of the gasket - especially around the edges. So when the engine cools even slightly, oil is squeezed out from under the gasket next to the drain back hole at the lowest point of both heads - exhaust spring pocket on the head. The locater tubes at the drain holes in the mating surfaces of the head and jugs are not really tubes but pieces of rolled sheet stock so there is a crack along the seam side - not a sealed drain tube, a leak!

Pardon my ignorance, but why is all this only basically occurring on the rear cylinder? Soley because the rear gets that much hotter than the front? Or does the front happen to be designed properly, even by the chance of HD getting lucky in the front?

Hoist!

[djkak]

But if the liner has dropped and the crimp has lost its clamping load, I would expect to have one nasty compression leak that would be much more noticeable than just the weeping oil we are seeing.

The head gasket “fire ring” protects and in the case of the Twin Cam, also seals. Panheads and Shovelheads incorporated the fire ring into the cylinder; these head gaskets did not require a fire ring. When the S&S EVO Sidewinder kits were first introduced, the head gasket supplied with the kit did not have a fire ring and the results were predictable.

In the case of machines like the EVO and small bore Twin Cam’s, the oil return passage through the head gasket surface was sealed by an o-ring. In circumstances where the combustion seal of these machines was compromised, the oil passage seal remained intact. The 110 cylinders do not have enough material between the bore’s edge and the oil passage to allow the use of an o-ring like the small bore machines.

Considering the apparent challenge that Milwaukee faces to seal the oil passage with the reduced surface area, It is my sense that with the 110’s it is more likely that a compromised combustion chamber seal will also result in leakage from the oil return passage.

djkak

[djkak]

Hoist,

I would venture to say that Porsche or VW or any other manufacturer of these types of cylinders use a flanged liner - more expensive to manufacture. None of the HD cylinder liners are flanged so they are relying totally on the keyed casting joint for stability and location of the liner. A flange on the liner would do two things: allow it to be totally renewed very readily (HD hates the thought of that!) and the liner would be stationary in the aluminum finned jug and held by an appropriately designed head gasket or compression joint between the head and cylinder 'assembly'. Also, the added expense of the mechanical fitment of the liner to the jug would reduce the bottom line for the money people at HD. These cylinders are probably made as cheaply as HD can possibly make them!......

With the cylinder liner anchored at the top, the differing expansion rates of the iron and aluminum would necessitate the use of a floating liner. It seems to me that a floating cylinder liner in an air cooled engine would be problematic; heat transfer issues not being the least of them.

Are there any mass produced, high output application successfully using an air cooled cylinder with a floating liner?

djkak

[skreminegul07]

The metal edge is basically to prevent the gasket material from eroding from the fuel, oil, and all that other flaming activity going on in the chamber. The metal crimp ring helps to some extent and probably the better the wider it is but the gasket material is what does the major sealing. The gasket is what the crimp is supported by. I believe the oil leak is part of a combination of occurences. Like maybe a non resilient, cheap assed head gasket that has taken a set and remains shrunk after the initial head torque and when the engine heats up and expands there in a loss of seal of the gasket - especially around the edges. So when the engine cools even slightly, oil is squeezed out from under the gasket next to the drain back hole at the lowest point of both heads - exhaust spring pocket on the head. The locater tubes at the drain holes in the mating surfaces of the head and jugs are not really tubes but pieces of rolled sheet stock so there is a crack along the seam side - not a sealed drain tube, a leak!

Is it then possible that the orientation of the seam of the oil return tube might predetermine whether or not a leak will occur?  Is this a random event?
Not random as far as the front or rear but as far as why some leak and some don't.

Lot's of good discussion going on here.  I hope Milwaukee is monitoring.

[SE08RK]

There were sleeve valve aircraft engines mass produced before and during the second WW. The liner reciprocated as a means of valving. They were air cooled!

 It's all a compromise in manufacture and efficiency. Good sense would ascertain the need for a head gasket with some sort of protection to an eroding inner edge. Possibly a method to produce such a quality gasket was beyond their capabilities at the time? Would they admit such a deficiency in an already marketed engine? We are left to guess and try to make reason for their choice....

The cylinder liner is basically anchored at the top with a cast-in liner - that is if the keying method is satisfactory. The top is where the greatest heat is generated and also where the greater mass of the cylinder is and so will also shrink the most on cooling. This is the reason for the necessity of torque plates to achieve an accurately machined or measured bore in air cooled cylinders. The lower end is cooler and less dense so will compress greater when torqued than the top so the relaxed bore is larger at the bottom to allow for another of those compromises - the greater expanse at the top. (This cold upper tightness is a major reason for a period of warm-up of an air cooled engine before hard running to reducing the possibility of yanking a cold piston apart, or scoring a liner or piston.) A Harley cylinder is tapered when cold, the tight end being the top where the mass is, and the top grows with heat.

Water cooling would solve a multitude of problems but, I feel sure that something very desirable about these engines would be lost....they would not be a Harley Davidson engine any longer. The engine noise would be gone, no more valve train noise because the temperature would always be the same; where the thermostat says it should be, so the cylinder would always be the same - no growth. Fins would be added for aesthetics only since they wouldn't be required any longer....This 110 may be a lunk, but it has the best of it all - old and new. It leaks oil as Harley's always have, it's noisy as hell and burns lots of gasoline. What more do we want....?

BC

[SE08RK]

Is it then possible that the orientation of the seam of the oil return tube might predetermine whether or not a leak will occur?  Is this a random event?
Not random as far as the front or rear but as far as why some leak and some don't.

Lot's of good discussion going on here.  I hope Milwaukee is monitoring.

I would have enjoyed seeing solid tubes used. I'm not so sure that the rolled tubes may not be another source for the oil that a poorly sealing gasket is allowing to pass. I also hope HD is taking time to realize that we bought their product in good faith, and expect them to take charge and correct their problems, and on these 110's, not the next batch!

[SE08RK]

The head gasket “fire ring” protects and in the case of the Twin Cam, also seals. Panheads and Shovelheads incorporated the fire ring into the cylinder; these head gaskets did not require a fire ring. When the S&S EVO Sidewinder kits were first introduced, the head gasket supplied with the kit did not have a fire ring and the results were predictable.

djkak

Sort of a shame that some of the older methods weren't carried over. The spigotted cylinder location ring - or "fire ring" - was a great way of locating the head on the cast iron barrel and the plumbing 'T' intake manifold did the rest... Not making fun, just thinking back. The best thing that ever happened to a Pan Head was to put Shovel Heads on it! Those days were pure bliss, didn't hear gear noise or valves clattering back then! And oil leaks?

[rednectum]

Pardon my ignorance, but why is all this only basically occurring on the rear cylinder? Soley because the rear gets that much hotter than the front? Or does the front happen to be designed properly, even by the chance of HD getting lucky in the front?

Hoist!

i think you can eliminate that one. when unpackaging new cylinders, the techs can place em front/ rear because they are the same. yall are only seeing rear problems, leading one to believe additional heat is the culprit. marginal casting is the problem.

tis what i glean from this anyway.

[SE08RK]

i think you can eliminate that one. when unpackaging new cylinders, the techs can place em front/ rear because they are the same. yall are only seeing rear problems, leading one to believe additional heat is the culprit. marginal casting is the problem.

tis what i glean from this anyway.

How about if we dissolve some peppermint candy in the engine oil? Or the gasoline? That would seal up a head gasket. It would seal up the leaks and smell good too! Ah hell, that's just wishful dreaming, and its been a fine day.

 And a good day to all too!

[rednectum]

you know what they say about too much sugar. or sugar coating. we are all trying to understand.

[djkak]

....I would venture to say that Porsche or VW or any other manufacturer of these types of cylinders use a flanged liner - more expensive to manufacture. None of the HD cylinder liners are flanged so they are relying totally on the keyed casting joint for stability and location of the liner. A flange on the liner would do two things: allow it to be totally renewed very readily (HD hates the thought of that!) and the liner would be stationary in the aluminum finned jug and held by an appropriately designed head gasket or compression joint between the head and cylinder 'assembly'. Also, the added expense of the mechanical fitment of the liner to the jug would reduce the bottom line for the money people at HD. These cylinders are probably made as cheaply as HD can possibly make them!...

There were sleeve valve aircraft engines mass produced before and during the second WW. The liner reciprocated as a means of valving. They were air cooled!....

The cylinder liner is basically anchored at the top with a cast-in liner - that is if the keying method is satisfactory. The top is where the greatest heat is generated and also where the greater mass of the cylinder is and so will also shrink the most on cooling. This is the reason for the necessity of torque plates to achieve an accurately machined or measured bore in air cooled cylinders. The lower end is cooler and less dense so will compress greater when torqued than the top so the relaxed bore is larger at the bottom to allow for another of those compromises - the greater expanse at the top. (This cold upper tightness is a major reason for a period of warm-up of an air cooled engine before hard running to reducing the possibility of yanking a cold piston apart, or scoring a liner or piston.) A Harley cylinder is tapered when cold, the tight end being the top where the mass is, and the top grows with heat.....

BC

Got me there; any contemporary overhead valve examples? It seems to me that if all that is necessary to make this a better mousetrap is to fasten a flanged liner into an aluminum heat sink, the aftermarket would be on this like a cleaning Lady on a quarter; assuming that Milwaukee’s disinterest is financial.

The purpose of the OEM Kent Moore torque plates are to simulate assembled conditions. The book method to refinish these cylinders is to maintain roundness and taper to within 0.0002”, with the torque plates in place. Some distortion will occur when the torque plates are removed.

I’ll bet that with the CAD technology available today, the tapered design of the cylinder’s heat sink would do a fairly good job of maintaining dimensional stability in the bore at operating temperature; either that or it’s just used to make it look cool. 

djkak

[SE08RK]

you know what they say about too much sugar. or sugar coating. we are all trying to understand.

I believe that you have a pretty good understanding about what's being discussed here, rednectum. The sugar is a silly joke without the slightest semblance of seriousness intended. I'll try to stay closer to the subject.... .

.0002! Man that's close! Being able to subject the cylinder to the exact stresses and torque when machining as in situ has always seemed another of those compromises in the 'exactness required' for these engines. Not long ago, you would bore and finish a cylinder only after measuring the piston that was going to be used. Today - just bore it!

Flanging the TC liners? I just may go do some measuring to see how plausible that may be. The aluminum portion certainly appears to be thick enough and there are heat sink compounds to lube and keep contact for heat dissipation. Why it hasn't been done before is a good question, except maybe the availability and cheapness of the already ready variety.

The RR Merlin used flanged liners, though water cooled. The P-51 Mustang engine - the inverted v12 Allison V-1710 supercharged water cooled super high performance gasoline engine used flanged cylinder liners. Cast-in liners are a recent innovation (last 35-40 years) where the atmospheric controlled die casting process allowed the use of high strength aluminums that would sustain the shrink grip that a liner needs. Keying the liner in is a means of allowing the process to require fewer steps to the finished product - cheaper.

I remember talking to an old mechanic when I was a kid about my Pan Head. I told him about the oil leaks, the smoke and clatter and he asked me how it ran. I said "it runs good" and he says "well then, why are you standing here griping about an engine that runs good - go ride the hell out it!" But that was then, and that motorcycle didn't cost over 33K to get on the road like this CVO did. This 110 sounds very much like the Pan Head did and some even have the oil leaks! I'm going to ride it as the old man suggested and worry about the engine when it self destructs - hoping that it does it during the warranty period. It's all a compromise! 

[SPIDERMAN]

Just to throw a screwball into this discussion. I've gotten a couple PM's from some of the MADMEN on this site that dream of nothing but gears and pistons and cylinders and cams etc etc and they're quietly building motors with AXTEL iron cylinders.

BEWARE THE STOCK LOOKING CVO WITH FUNNY LOOKING CYLINDERS 

B B

[djkak]

.....0002! Man that's close! Being able to subject the cylinder to the exact stresses and torque when machining as in situ has always seemed another of those compromises in the 'exactness required' for these engines. Not long ago, you would bore and finish a cylinder only after measuring the piston that was going to be used. Today - just bore it!

Flanging the TC liners? I just may go do some measuring to see how plausible that may be. The aluminum portion certainly appears to be thick enough and there are heat sink compounds to lube and keep contact for heat dissipation. Why it hasn't been done before is a good question, except maybe the availability and cheapness of the already ready variety.....

I remember talking to an old mechanic when I was a kid about my Pan Head. I told him about the oil leaks, the smoke and clatter and he asked me how it ran. I said "it runs good" and he says "well then, why are you standing here griping about an engine that runs good - go ride the hell out it!" But that was then, and that motorcycle didn't cost over 33K to get on the road like this CVO did. This 110 sounds very much like the Pan Head did and some even have the oil leaks! I'm going to ride it as the old man suggested and worry about the engine when it self destructs - hoping that it does it during the warranty period. It's all a compromise! 

I agree that 0.0002" is a small number and does seem a little fussy; although in practice two tenths is not at all difficult to maintain; a broader tolerance would get the job done faster though. I believe that 0.0002” has been the standard in high performance automotive applications for many years.

My experience with automotive machine shops coincides with yours in that they simply bore all cylinders to a given dimension rather than taking the time to iindividually fit each piston. Today it seems that most of the H-D cylinder work is done for high performance applications. In these cases I believe a reasonable expectation is that each piston is custom fit and the bore’s roundness and taper is held to 0.0002” or less.

There is a challenge when finishing an H-D cylinder, with its large exposed spigot at the bottom. Friction created by the rigid hone can heat the spigot area to a higher temp than the rest of the cylinder, causing it to expand more. If you don’t modify your stroke to account for this, you might be forced to deal with it later. 

Your thoughts about compromise and balance ring true with just about everything in life, I have found. Right now I’m working on the balance between my speedometer and the State Patrol’s. This one always feels more like all balance and no compromise.

djkak

[djkak]

Just to throw a screwball into this discussion. I've gotten a couple PM's from some of the MADMEN on this site that dream of nothing but gears and pistons and cylinders and cams etc etc and they're quietly building motors with AXTEL iron cylinders.

BEWARE THE STOCK LOOKING CVO WITH FUNNY LOOKING CYLINDERS 

B B

Hoist brought that up awhile back. I believe that those big iron cylinders are tough as nails, but I’m not sure that I would be comfortable blazing through the California desert at warp speed in late July with a pair of those between my legs.

Back in the days when iron cylinders ruled the roost, a sharp carbide in the boring bar was your best friend.

djkak

[SE08RK]

Yes, and the VA State Police are forced to do the dirty work for this state, since with the 'remedial fees' that they just enacted - $1000 speeding 'fee' on top of the regular fine for residents only! It doesn't pay to live and pay taxes in VA anymore, they'll screw you anyhow!
 
Sorry to get on that! But what you say is very true and they are using laser to detect your speed now. The police seem more predatory than safeguarding lately, especially on the highway, like mercenary? But some people get away with most anything, like the stereo types story again. "Who's tha man in tha black Jap sedan that just cut you off - Shaft - that's who"   --going too far away from the topic, I am----

The iron lined aluminum cylinders are much more efficient than solid cast iron. Aluminum will transfer and dissipate the engine's heat far better than the iron, so what we have right now is the best 'compromise' or the best of both worlds. And I will guarantee that those iron cylinders are a product of China! But, the quality of their castings are very much better than years past where you had to grind a bore out because if the glassy hard inclusions in the cast iron. The iron foundries in the USA are so EPA'd that they are stuck making man hole covers, dam shame. I make some castings once in a while in my back yard and I sometimes look up to see if the EPA is flying around looking at all this heat going up into the sky - bound to be illegal!

Iron is very intimidating to work with in its molten state! It's so hot that a drop of water into the crucible doesn't have time to turn to steam, it separates into hydrogen and oxygen and explodes sending droplets of super hot molten iron into the sky. A drop of molten iron hitting a person in the head is fatal. It will cauterize a hole down through the skull and down into the brain. You be seriously dead!

Enough of this cheerful stuff!

Looking back at the photo in your first post...if you lay a straightedge across the top of a slipped cylinder, do you see an indication of the liner slipping down? And in that case, wonder what would happen if the cylinder were set up in a hydraulic press inverted and the liner were pressed back up? Do you suppose that the liner has actually become free in the jug? Also, wonder if HD has done any destructive testing to determine what is going on here; I guess we'll never know about that. I keep watching this 110 and haven't seen any cylinder activity but I'm just getting to the mileage that members here who have had the problems began to encounter them. I'll scream like mad when I see something, and I'm anxious about it - as if it is 'when' and not 'if'. This is such a pathetic defect! They made a cheap to manufacture cylinder, then tried to cheapen it even more ruining the only thing left that was good about the HD engine - longevity. 'course the timing chain helped there too!

BC

[Hoist!]

Hoist brought that up awhile back. I believe that those big iron cylinders are tough as nails, but I’m not sure that I would be comfortable blazing through the California desert at warp speed in late July with a pair of those between my legs.

Back in the days when iron cylinders ruled the roost, a sharp carbide in the boring bar was your best friend.

djkak

Axtell's not offering solid CI cylinders. I did try to go with solids, but used the Axtell Alum cylinders, with Liners. They are MUCH more heavy duty than the HD design, and are the same type that they use in all bore sizes. I was told the only solid cylinders they have are solid Alum w/the Nikalsil you spoke of earlier. I was told not to go that route due to long term reliability and reservicing issues.

Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

Axtell's not offering solid CI cylinders. I did try to go with solids, but used the Axtell Alum cylinders, with Liners. They are MUCH more heavy duty than the HD design, and are the same type that they use in all bore sizes. I was told the only solid cylinders they have are solid Alum w/the Nikalsil you spoke of earlier. I was told not to go that route due to long term reliability and reservicing issues.

Hoist!

This reminds me.  I need to check and see if the Axtell jugs I'm getting have made it to Sumax yet...

[djkak]

....Looking back at the photo in your first post...if you lay a straightedge across the top of a slipped cylinder, do you see an indication of the liner slipping down? And in that case, wonder what would happen if the cylinder were set up in a hydraulic press inverted and the liner were pressed back up? Do you suppose that the liner has actually become free in the jug? Also, wonder if HD has done any destructive testing to determine what is going on here; I guess we'll never know about that. I keep watching this 110 and haven't seen any cylinder activity but I'm just getting to the mileage that members here who have had the problems began to encounter them. I'll scream like mad when I see something, and I'm anxious about it - as if it is 'when' and not 'if'. This is such a pathetic defect! They made a cheap to manufacture cylinder, then tried to cheapen it even more ruining the only thing left that was good about the HD engine - longevity. 'course the timing chain helped there too!

BC

The cylinder in the first post has not failed; I don’t have a bad one to photograph. Once the liner begins to move, for all practical purposes the cylinder is no longer serviceable. The early S&S EVO Sidewinder cylinders mentioned awhile back were notorious for liner shift. I did try straightening the head gasket surface and trimming the protruding liner at the base on a couple sets of S&S cylinders. This would buy some time, but the rate of slippage increased on these “repaired” cylinders.

My experience over the past 20+ years is that liner movement on H-D cylinders is rare. I can easily count on one hand the number of H-D cylinders that I have encountered which have failed in this manner. I see one or two posts that mention a broad date range for this failure; that has not been my experience.

It is my sense that historically these types of malfunctions originate in the Foundry manufacturing the cylinder blanks. The duration of this problem causes me to question whether this is true in the case of the 110’s. With adequate QC in place, it seems unreasonable that that the cycle time required to recognize and correct a malfunction like this would take anywhere near this long. Once discovered I assume that SOP would be to identify the parts from the offending production run and scrap them.

At this point we really don’t know for sure if the root cause of the leakage is related to liner movement. Another thing that complicates the “field diagnosis” is that the method to seal top end oil returning through the head gasket has changed with the advent of the 110’s. It is possible that we are dealing with more than one problem.

I run a 113” Road Glide that has somewhere near 15,000 miles on it. The head gasket area of the cylinder and head are as dry as a popcorn fart. The 113 cylinders are not bored out 110 cylinders; the OD of the spigot and liner is larger on the 113; the bore is +0.060” over the 110.  It seems likely that the 113 cylinders are sourced from the same Foundry as the 110’s and probably all of the other smaller bore cylinders as well. If all of the large bore Twin Cam’s, including the 113 were failing, the easy assumption would be that there is shortcoming in the design of the large bore TC cylinders. I don’t have a sense for that yet; although that is the reason that I started the topic.

I would be interested to see or hear about the long term success of a 110 with straight gasket surfaces, which has been repaired with Cometic head gaskets and a modified head bolt torque procedure; the Cometic folks have one. I don’t use Milwaukee’s torque/twist method in high performance applications. I have landed on 40 to 45 ft lbs. I believe that 20 years ago S&S recommended something like 60 to 65 ft lbs for the EVO Sidewinders; it was not uncommon to see these engines pull cylinder studs. If a 110 leaker was repaired with the above method and failed again, I would be very interested in whether the liner had moved in the cylinder.

I wonder if there is a legitimate destructive test that involves throwing the cylinders off of a cliff; I'll bet it would be popular.

djkak

[SE08RK]

Very interesting.. I had a suspicion a while back when someone mentioned symptoms of these head gaskets leaking oil that it may be something that you have eluded to. I agree that these liners may possibly be the problem but the past history of the fabrication process and success of the 88 cylinders certainly leads to some serious doubt.

 My experience with the TC is recent, and by that I mean that I bought a TC in '04 and then began to accumulate parts for the engine. I have bought several pairs of cylinders and heads of various years and accumulated many other parts in anticipation of doing some mods and for trial and error. Some of these TC cylinders that I have bored have gotten excessively hot in doing so and have had to allow them to cool to the touch in order to remove them from the boring table - done partly due to a recent recondition of the boring bar so to test its cutting capacities and another reason is a trait: always in a hurry. A pair of these cylinders were used by a young fellow that has no regard for the engine or his health - youth is bliss! Stock HD head gaskets were used and they have done fine, no indication that the localized heat did any damage.

So I believe that you may have hit on something with two things: the possibility of the studs pulling from the cases and that the torque method HD recommends is flawed. The twist method, as I have known and used it with aircraft engines, is for a situation where the studs are tensioned to 75% or so of their yield point so as to utilize the heat treated alloy to it utmost, utilizing its elasticity. These alloy studs are sized to work within the cold and hot static dimensions of the assembly and usually in these applications the studs are discarded and newly heat treated ones are fitted. HD left out the step where the studs are discarded after each disassembly of the upper end. And.. so I agree with your 40 -45 ftlb torque as a more accurate sustained and acquired torque - with proper preparation of the threads a given. Possibly in the low range of torque for the size thread and stud size for my (and your eluded to) suspicion that the studs are/were pulling from the cases. Which is very possibly why HD replaced some entire engines when these failures were first found. ( I'm a conspiracy theory sort, since I put nothing past a company that is so secretive. They give us license to surmise and theorize about their policies!) They may very well have realized an inadequacy in the cases where the thread area allowance for the cylinder studs is too small and see no alternative but to replace the culprit engine.

Can we start some rumors with a friendly discussing of this stuff ??!!

Where's the cliff? I'm ready to do some destructive HD engine parts testing. That's a good one!

Thanks dj!

[Chief]

the fin above the exhaust port is clear: front & rear.

not that they won't reciprocate, but they are labeled.


 my replacement engine seems solid.



TN



a blueprint of the 110ci engine would be nice.

TN,

You must be thinking about the head, not the cylinder. The heads are definitely F&R, but the cylinders are interchageable.

[SE08RK]

The cylinders are identical before use, after which they should remain with their broken-in pistons and locations. That's probably old hat to most of you....

BC

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Well we know for a fact that HD use more than place to cast parts so that may one issue. I have looked a a bunch of 110 cylinders and have not seen movement when we have replaced head gaskets.  But I have to wonder if the cylinder liner can slip back down. There is no reason it cannot. I can think back to a all aluminum chevy bow tie block that did this to me as well others. When heated up it could move but many times it would be back in the correct location when you check it.  With the hd liner dropping it should pop the gasket on the spot but then it may be floating and once it moves up and down a few times then you see them out of postion.

[SPIDERMAN]

This reminds me.  I need to check and see if the Axtell jugs I'm getting have made it to Sumax yet...

So much for any effort on my behalf to be the keeper of your secrets 

B B

[Twolanerider]

So much for any effort on my behalf to be the keeper of your secrets 

B B

Oooops, sorry Brian, I didn't realize that unzipping the engine work this winter was a secret .  In some form or another that a winter project was going to happen to hopefully make it all right again had come up before.

FWIW, found out the jugs made it to Sumax today.  Then, after however long it takes Sumax (was really hard to use them again) to do their thing the head and jugs will go back to Axtell for finish machine work.  After that will be diamond cutting; yet again.

Vendor histories being what they are I expect those three to have everything to me by February  .

[naitram]

Oooops, sorry Brian, I didn't realize that unzipping the engine work this winter was a secret .  In some form or another that a winter project was going to happen to hopefully make it all right again had come up before.

FWIW, found out the jugs made it to Sumax today.  Then, after however long it takes Sumax (was really hard to use them again) to do their thing the head and jugs will go back to Axtell for finish machine work.  After that will be diamond cutting; yet again.

Vendor histories being what they are I expect those three to have everything to me by February   .

being optomistic aren't you

[SPIDERMAN]

Oooops, sorry Brian, I didn't realize that unzipping the engine work this winter was a secret .  In some form or another that a winter project was going to happen to hopefully make it all right again had come up before.

FWIW, found out the jugs made it to Sumax today.  Then, after however long it takes Sumax (was really hard to use them again) to do their thing the head and jugs will go back to Axtell for finish machine work.  After that will be diamond cutting; yet again.

Vendor histories being what they are I expect those three to have everything to me by February  .

Pop everything into a vat of liquid nitrogen before you size your pistons and you'll never ever have a problem with those cylinders.

B B

[Twolanerider]

being optomistic aren't you

God I hope not....

[rednectum]

hehehe, better get in line, if yoiu want your stuff by spring.

[Twolanerider]

hehehe, better get in line, if yoiu want your stuff by spring.

Dennis, got to say that given the too common performance history of too many vendors "by spring" is NOT a foregone conclusion.  Three vendors.  Each who say their task will take "a couple weeks."  Allow three months and count on February.  The scary part is that hoping for such a schedule could be optimistic.... 

[Bert760]

I'm a newbie here,but own the 07 ultra with the 110 and my leaking problems didn't start until after the 10k service. Now they can't get it to stop leaking. After 4 trips back to Manatee River Harley in Bradenton,Fl I was just informed this morning that they have ordered new cylinders and they will be in in about a week.
You think HD would just recall the whole lot with the problem and be done with it.

[SE08RK]

That's a tough call. HD will probably replace these cylinders as they are noted by a dealer as defective. Some of the recalls will be left to the intelligence or abilities of the service department to determine that the cylinder needs replaced or the entire engine need to be. I'm not saying that all of the cylinders are defective or that all of the 110's that have these problems are totally defective and should be replaced. Thus far, HD has not been the least bit forthright about what the problem is in the first place. I believe in that light, they will do as little as they can get away with. Total recall; I seriously doubt if HD will do that. But - just my humble opinion!

BC

[SE08RK]

Dennis, got to say that given the too common performance history of too many vendors "by spring" is NOT a foregone conclusion.  Three vendors.  Each who say their task will take "a couple weeks."  Allow three months and count on February.  The scary part is that hoping for such a schedule could be optimistic.... 

These are the reasons that although I do not necessarily want to, I do a lot of my own work. OK, this may not be what some of you want to do or maybe have the ability or desire to do for one reason or the other. But this motorcycle will be serviced by a dealer that knows me, knows what I am capable of and expects future business from me and also knows that I am going to do some of my own modification work (speaking of an HD dealer). The warranty will be regarded in that light as it should legally be - they do not warranty what I did. I am also very close to an independent Harley Davidson shop near by that is near and dear to my heart and very good for my Harley Davidson motorcycles. (spelled out so that HD will take note once again that they are not the only game on the block)

BC

[Hoist!]

That's a tough call. HD will probably replace these cylinders as they are noted by a dealer as defective. Some of the recalls will be left to the intelligence or abilities of the service department to determine that the cylinder needs replaced or the entire engine need to be. I'm not saying that all of the cylinders are defective or that all of the 110's that have these problems are totally defective and should be replaced. Thus far, HD has not been the least bit forthright about what the problem is in the first place. I believe in that light, they will do as little as they can get away with. Total recall; I seriously doubt if HD will do that. But - just my humble opinion!

BC

I think you're right, and you're being pretty damn nice about it too! I feel a little stronger about their attitude about the whole 110 thing!

Hoist!

[Hoist!]

These are the reasons that although I do not necessarily want to, I do a lot of my own work. OK, this may not be what some of you want to do or maybe have the ability or desire to do for one reason or the other. But this motorcycle will be serviced by a dealer that knows me, knows what I am capable of and expects future business from me and also knows that I am going to do some of my own modification work (speaking of an HD dealer). The warranty will be regarded in that light as it should legally be - they do not warranty what I did. I am also very close to an independent Harley Davidson shop near by that is near and dear to my heart and very good for my Harley Davidson motorcycles. (spelled out so that HD will take note once again that they are not the only game on the block)

BC

I blew them off and am doing the entire motor myself (professionally built by Vern)!

Hoist!

[SE08RK]

I think you're right, and you're being pretty damn nice about it too! I feel a little stronger about their attitude about the whole 110 thing!

Hoist!

Well Hoist, I'm hoping that they may still step up. But we will see. I'm most happy to see someone who will take the initiative to correct the problems that HD has given us. Good or bad, I'll finally be forced to do the same and finish their job. Damn shame we must!

BC

[SE08RK]

Well we know for a fact that HD use more than place to cast parts so that may one issue. I have looked a a bunch of 110 cylinders and have not seen movement when we have replaced head gaskets.  But I have to wonder if the cylinder liner can slip back down. There is no reason it cannot. I can think back to a all aluminum chevy bow tie block that did this to me as well others. When heated up it could move but many times it would be back in the correct location when you check it.  With the hd liner dropping it should pop the gasket on the spot but then it may be floating and once it moves up and down a few times then you see them out of postion.

Good info! Thanks.

BC

[Unbalanced]

I am not so sure yet you have to go quite that far to stop hassling with the head gasket leaks.   I am optimistic at this point, but not sure.  IT may just take changing head gaskets and a some cinch to get it right.   Yep I went outside the box to get a "possible" fix, but did it in an effort to not replace all of the motor and yet keep it reliable and running.   I am not saying any of the choices are wrong, just that it is what you want to make of it.  Right now it has been an inconvenience and tiresome and down right frustrating, but it hasn't stopped me from riding it only added some extra cleaning and down time at the shop when the issue was present.   To each is own, I hope the person who has a "new gasket" shares the part number with us so we can verify it is actually a new gasket and then we sit back and wait 4 to 6k miles for a report.   The hard part about that one is the person is from a cold state we may wait a long long time.   I would like to see that information passed so someone from a warm climate that rides and has the issue can get a hold of the part number and get them installed as a fix and see if we can positive report sooner.

 OK i am off my    Where is that dead horse icon so I can beat that too while I am at it.

[Gunn Runner]

New parts have arrived.....two weeks from date of service ticket 10/17/07.......on the lift today or tomorrow at MR-HD........should be out by Saturday. Now comes the real test........if the repairs hold up.  No problems so far with a friend of mine on same 07 SEUC.......he's put 6K miles on the head gasket repair without any signs of oil leaks.  Will keep everyone posted down here in Paradise ! ! !

[Keith_H]

Got mine back Saturday with it's 3rd set of gaskets and the new superglue. 1st leak at 3000, first gasket set at 5000, second gasket set and new jugs at 8200 (those lasted 50 miles) 3rd gasket set with different sealent 8250 miles. Only able to put on 200 miles this week with the temps starting to drop with frost early in the morning but i'll let you know if anything of interest happens. I really hope this does it. As said above, it's the phone calls, visits, cleaning, the down time and the running it back and forth that's frustrating. 10 months old and down 4 weeks and i consider that i've been lucky on how fast my shop has gotten it back on the road each time. Well at least my Low Rider is happy, it's getting more attention 
Cheers-

[skreminegul07]

Got mine back Saturday with it's 3rd set of gaskets and the new superglue. 1st leak at 3000, first gasket set at 5000, second gasket set and new jugs at 8200 (those lasted 50 miles) 3rd gasket set with different sealent 8250 miles. Only able to put on 200 miles this week with the temps starting to drop with frost early in the morning but i'll let you know if anything of interest happens. I really hope this does it. As said above, it's the phone calls, visits, cleaning, the down time and the running it back and forth that's frustrating. 10 months old and down 4 weeks and i consider that i've been lucky on how fast my shop has gotten it back on the road each time. Well at least my Low Rider is happy, it's getting more attention 
Cheers-

Are we thinking that there may be a fix involving a new gasket and glue?

[Gunn Runner]

Repairs complete on my 2007 SEUC....new rear cylinder. Crank run out was within spec. On the road again........HD Manatee River did an outstanding job on the bike....no scratches, adjusted idle rpm, much better throttle response, a little bit harder to crank though.....I would guess because of better compression with new cylinder.  Good luck to everyone on your 110 issues.....hope to see you all in York, PA next April.