Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Eqcons]

Jim, the Thundermax doesn't use the MAP sensor.  That it's "very beneficial" is really less so than it's just different.  Going from a speed density to an Alpha-N box changes the need and utility of the MAP sensor.  The ion sensor on the other hand would have the same utility for the Tmax as it does for the stock system; if the Tmax used it.  Which it does not.

Yes, it's the Ion sensor capability lacking in the TMAT that has me looking elsewhere, Don.  The TMAT is fine around here, but I know when I get to a v. different ambient environment, it pings. And I don't like it.

Granted, the ion sensor adjusts over a relatively narrow range.  It's sort of an uber VOES.  But it's still the only thing on the bike that can do that job.  Zippers (apparently) trusts their maps so absolutely that they believe that their shi... oops, I mean that their system just can't ping.  Obviously what you heard and what I heard and what others have heard were psychotropic halluncinations rather than actual engine noises.

Either that or a small team of leprechaun blacksmiths, all battering the shoot out of their mini-anvils with mini-hammers, inside my motor.

But switching to this device has another couple of useful things;  - back to the standard ECM, good for warranty, (first thing they tried when my motor gave up in Spain last year - 3rd party ECM?  No warranty! - they hadn't realised at that time they were talking like that to the wrong guy!), good for the HD Techs to connect to for fault diagnosis, etc., back to the narrow band O₂ sensors, which fit better with the V&H headers....

So, what's your take on it Don? Sound like a useful device to me?

Jim

[Twolanerider]

But switching to this device has another couple of useful things;  - back to the standard ECM, good for warranty, (first thing they tried when my motor gave up in Spain last year - 3rd party ECM?  No warranty! - they hadn't realised at that time they were talking like that to the wrong guy!), good for the HD Techs to connect to for fault diagnosis, etc., back to the narrow band O₂ sensors, which fit better with the V&H headers....

So, what's your take on it Don? Sound like a useful device to me?

Jim

Honestly Jim I'm not sure at this point.  Have only followed the discussion as it's been ongoing here without looking at any manufacturer's data.  Will do a bit more homework and see if a more informed opinion can be had.

Can certainly see some benefit and at least the potential of others.  Having the stock ECM when riding through distant areas can be a real benefit.  Having the ability to allow a shop to just plug in and at least attempt to diagnose is a real benefit when you're on the road.  Even more so for you than those of us here.  There are also an unfortunately large number of shops that simply would not even make the effort with an aftermarket device on as well. 

The stock system will adjust a little.  Over a relatively narrow band.  If I'm reading everything here correctly it seems this new device simply expands on the "when" and the "how much" of that adjustability.  In the "more is better" context that can't hurt.  Assuming it's enough more to actually be beneficial (relative to the cost of course).

In different environments the answer might be wholly different also.  The differences between where you live and where you ride are significant enough that greater range of self-adjustment has the potential to be very important.  Especially if this is accomplished without losing the limited knock sensing the bikes already have.  So I guess right now I'd have to say this new device you've been discussing sounds at least promising.  Let me do a bit more homework before I decide if I'd buy it not (considering your geography in the mix).

[Chief]

Honestly Jim I'm not sure at this point.  Have only followed the discussion as it's been ongoing here without looking at any manufacturer's data.  Will do a bit more homework and see if a more informed opinion can be had.

Can certainly see some benefit and at least the potential of others.  Having the stock ECM when riding through distant areas can be a real benefit.  Having the ability to allow a shop to just plug in and at least attempt to diagnose is a real benefit when you're on the road.  Even more so for you than those of us here.  There are also an unfortunately large number of shops that simply would not even make the effort with an aftermarket device on as well. 

The stock system will adjust a little.  Over a relatively narrow band.  If I'm reading everything here correctly it seems this new device simply expands on the "when" and the "how much" of that adjustability.  In the "more is better" context that can't hurt.  Assuming it's enough more to actually be beneficial (relative to the cost of course).

In different environments the answer might be wholly different also.  The differences between where you live and where you ride are significant enough that greater range of self-adjustment has the potential to be very important.  Especially if this is accomplished without losing the limited knock sensing the bikes already have.  So I guess right now I'd have to say this new device you've been discussing sounds at least promising.  Let me do a bit more homework before I decide if I'd buy it not (considering your geography in the mix).

I see this as a auto tuning Power Commander programmed with a base offset of zero, but will adjust that up or down as conditions warrant. If your map is real close, the offset will be less than if you have a less than optimum map requiring larger offsets.

I wonder if you can pull the offsets from  the unit and use that to get the SERT closer to optimum, thus requiring the tool to do less and less. 

[Eqcons]

Honestly Jim I'm not sure at this point.  Have only followed the discussion as it's been ongoing here without looking at any manufacturer's data.  Will do a bit more homework and see if a more informed opinion can be had.

Can certainly see some benefit and at least the potential of others.  Having the stock ECM when riding through distant areas can be a real benefit.  Having the ability to allow a shop to just plug in and at least attempt to diagnose is a real benefit when you're on the road.  Even more so for you than those of us here.  There are also an unfortunately large number of shops that simply would not even make the effort with an aftermarket device on as well. 

The stock system will adjust a little.  Over a relatively narrow band.  If I'm reading everything here correctly it seems this new device simply expands on the "when" and the "how much" of that adjustability.  In the "more is better" context that can't hurt.  Assuming it's enough more to actually be beneficial (relative to the cost of course).

In different environments the answer might be wholly different also.  The differences between where you live and where you ride are significant enough that greater range of self-adjustment has the potential to be very important.  Especially if this is accomplished without losing the limited knock sensing the bikes already have.  So I guess right now I'd have to say this new device you've been discussing sounds at least promising.  Let me do a bit more homework before I decide if I'd buy it not (considering your geography in the mix).

You're echoing all my thoughts, Don - I shall stand by and await your collected ponderings! 

Jim

[Eqcons]

I wonder if you can pull the offsets from  the unit and use that to get the SERT closer to optimum, thus requiring the tool to do less and less. 

Now there's a thought, Chiefy!     I could then have a map to load each time I changed between my touring and my performance mufflers, so there would be no delay while the tool re-learned it all...

Jim

[Chief]

Now there's a thought, Chiefy!     I could then have a map to load each time I changed between my touring and my performance mufflers, so there would be no delay while the tool re-learned it all...

Jim

That sounds like a great way to go.

[sadunbar]

Having gone the route of the TMAX last year before crying uncle and going back to my tried and true Power Commander, I would like to offer a comment...

When I decided to try the TMAX last spring, I liked the basic idea of the technology and I liked everything I read and learned about the device.  After installing the system, I began to learn of the limitations of the device - and those limitations coupled with Zippers disappointing customer service and non existent technical assistance eventually caused me to go back to my tried and true Power Commander.

My sense in reading about the HeadQuarters device is what I am reading sounds very good, much like the TMAX sounded very good a year ago - but there likely limitations associated with the HeadQuarters device that exist, but may not be known until someone volunteers to be the guinea pig and start learning about the device.

I like the idea of the technology.  I was disappointed when the TMAX did not work for me.  I am not ready to be the HeadQuarters guinea pig, but it would be nice if someone else was...

Scott

[Eqcons]

Having gone the route of the TMAX last year before crying uncle and going back to my tried and true Power Commander, I would like to offer a comment...

When I decided to try the TMAX last spring, I liked the basic idea of the technology and I liked everything I read and learned about the device.  After installing the system, I began to learn of the limitations of the device - and those limitations coupled with Zippers disappointing customer service and non existent technical assistance eventually caused me to go back to my tried and true Power Commander.

My sense in reading about the HeadQuarters device is what I am reading sounds very good, much like the TMAX sounded very good a year ago - but there likely limitations associated with the HeadQuarters device that exist, but may not be known until someone volunteers to be the guinea pig and start learning about the device.

I like the idea of the technology.  I was disappointed when the TMAX did not work for me.  I am not ready to be the HeadQuarters guinea pig, but it would be nice if someone else was...

Scott

I think that's well put, Scott.  I used the PCIII on my 06 CUSE, and was disappointed because the "near enough" map wasn't, and the "approved dyno centre" was expensive rubbish.  I've had the TMAT on my 07 CUSE and am disappointed for reasons discussed elsewhere (if *only* they'd made it use the ion sensor!!), and this device looks to have more promise for me than any previously have.  The proof of the pudding, of course, is in the eating!

Jim

[sadunbar]

I think that's well put, Scott.  I used the PCIII on my 06 CUSE, and was disappointed because the "near enough" map wasn't, and the "approved dyno centre" was expensive rubbish.  I've had the TMAT on my 07 CUSE and am disappointed for reasons discussed elsewhere (if *only* they'd made it use the ion sensor!!), and this device looks to have more promise for me than any previously have.  The proof of the pudding, of course, is in the eating!

Jim

Spoken like a true Scotsman - of which I am one...!

Scott

[Chief]

I think that's well put, Scott.  I used the PCIII on my 06 CUSE, and was disappointed because the "near enough" map wasn't, and the "approved dyno centre" was expensive rubbish.  I've had the TMAT on my 07 CUSE and am disappointed for reasons discussed elsewhere (if *only* they'd made it use the ion sensor!!), and this device looks to have more promise for me than any previously have.  The proof of the pudding, of course, is in the eating!

Jim

Digging around on the HQ USA site, I learned they are here in Atlanta. I'll continue to dig and see if I can turn this into anything.  

[Eqcons]

Digging around on the HQ USA site, I learned they are here in Atlanta. I'll continue to dig and see if I can turn this into anything.  

Excellent!  Nice to be on the spot 

[Chief]

Excellent!  Nice to be on the spot 

Just got off of the phone with Kevin, the US rep for HQ. I found out some very interesting things about their unit.

You can't pull info off of the unit to use to better tune your SERT map. If the unit takes a dump, you will be running on your SERT or PC map. (bad)

The unit does not adjust F&R independently. It measures each and comes up with an adjustment which is applied to both cylinders. (good and maybe some bad) A plus to this is that you can run a bias to the rear cylinder, but I have some more questions about what happens to the front when it sees the average AFR as richer than target. Does it try to drop both F&R until the average hits target? I don't know and didn't think about that while on the phone.

Speaking of target AFR. It is built into the unit and is not adjustable. You can't tweak the target. (bad, I think).

Since the guy is local, I'll try to meet up with him and learn more. He is a tuner and knows that stuff, so at least I'm  not talking to a software support center about how to tune a bike.

More to come.

[Eqcons]

Just got off of the phone with Kevin, the US rep for HQ. I found out some very interesting things about their unit.

You can't pull info off of the unit to use to better tune your SERT map. If the unit takes a dump, you will be running on your SERT or PC map. (bad)

The unit does not adjust F&R independently. It measures each and comes up with an adjustment which is applied to both cylinders. (good and maybe some bad) A plus to this is that you can run a bias to the rear cylinder, but I have some more questions about what happens to the front when it sees the average AFR as richer than target. Does it try to drop both F&R until the average hits target? I don't know and didn't think about that while on the phone.

Speaking of target AFR. It is built into the unit and is not adjustable. You can't tweak the target. (bad, I think).

Since the guy is local, I'll try to meet up with him and learn more. He is a tuner and knows that stuff, so at least I'm  not talking to a software support center about how to tune a bike.

More to come.

Well done, Chuck!  Great to get this sort of insight. Is the target AFR not set by the SERT loaded Map, and this unit tries to keep it there? If the unit takes a dump, and you go to running on the SERT loaded map, you're still OK though - you'll be at  the "near enough" stage with no autotune I guess - OR - does their unit permanently alter the SERT loaded map?  If that's the case, and the unit disappears, does the map just revert to the loaded one, or stay modified?

Jim

[Eqcons]

Spoken like a true Scotsman - of which I am one...!

Scott

Och Aye!   

[Chief]

Well done, Chuck!  Great to get this sort of insight. Is the target AFR not set by the SERT loaded Map, and this unit tries to keep it there? If the unit takes a dump, and you go to running on the SERT loaded map, you're still OK though - you'll be at  the "near enough" stage with no autotune I guess - OR - does their unit permanently alter the SERT loaded map?  If that's the case, and the unit disappears, does the map just revert to the loaded one, or stay modified?

Jim

The target map is contained in the Pro Tuner, not the SERT or PC. This unit is not aware of the SERT map or the PC or any other tuning device. It doesn't care what is used to produce the signal to the injectors, it only looks at the signal being sent to the injectors and modifies that signal by the amount it has determined is needed to get to the AFR in it's target map.

The Pro Tuner doesn't know a SERT was used to build the map or that a PC is being used. It just doesn't care. If the unit craps out, the bike will run on the map in the ECM, which is why having a good base map is necessary.

I specifically asked about pulling the offsets out of the unit so the SERT or PR could be dialed in to an optimum map so if the unit dies, you'll have a great map. He expressed that this is not a tuning tool, but an inline appliance.

I think it deserves a deeper dive.