Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[hard10]

These are some pictures of my 3rd gasket set being installed. The first picture shows how the valve hits the rocker covers. They obviously have never been "clearanced" before.

[hard10]

Here you can see how it hits and why it has been making "noise"

[hard10]

It has been happening on both sides.

[hard10]

Here are the valves & springs

[hard10]

Now for a couple of shots of the gaskets

[hard10]

Gasket

[hard10]

Gasket

[hard10]

I was told that this was "normal"

[hard10]

Looks like a lot of "crud"

[hard10]

More "Crud"

[sadunbar]

I was told that this was "normal"

Soooo, who is doing your 3rd rebuild that thinks that is "normal"?  

                That comment would scare me just a bit....

     Maybe normal for a motor that has been burning oil for awhile...

Hey, that's it - for a motor that has had three head gaskets fail - it is normal.....

     But for a "normal" motor - that would not be "normal"...

All in the perspective, I guess!

[hard10]

Now, this is where it gets "scary"! This is "normal" carbon build-up.

The redish color is just oil that I did not wipe off but the burnt black stuff is the carbon build-up.

[hard10]

More

[hard10]

1

[sadunbar]

More

Chief,

  Looks like some additional pictures for your collection...

Scott

[hard10]

1

[hard10]

It's not getting any prettier.

[hard10]

The new gaskets are not yet available as of yet. They are still "testing" them.

[hard10]

I guess I'll have to wait and see if the new ones hold up.

[naitram]

These are some pictures of my 3rd gasket set being installed. The first picture shows how the valve hits the rocker covers. They obviously have never been "clearanced" before.

how the F did the 110(s) get out of R&D.... musta been a summer intern that did the calculations

[Fired00d]

Now, this is where it gets "scary"! This is "normal" carbon build-up.

The redish color is just oil that I did not wipe off but the burnt black stuff is the carbon build-up.

What are they going to be able to do about the carbon build-up?

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[sadunbar]

If this is the third rebuild, I hope they are replacing your cylinders studs, head bolts and other fasteners.  The whole idea of applying torque to fasteners is to stretch them.  But after being stretched multiple times, they tend to loose their ability to hold torque.  Just a suggestion, but if this is the third time for them, I would insist on fasteners being replaced.

Scott

[miker]

Them barrels did not slide?  Its a gasket?  Jimminy!

[sadunbar]

Them barrels did not slide?  Its a gasket?  Jimminy!

I was just going to ask that...did they inspect your cylinders/liners?   

[hard10]

This motor has 19200 miles on it. I do not ride my bike hard. I just hope that this time it will last longer and the the problems of the 110" have been resolved. I wonder if the editors of AIM will see this?

[hard10]

I was just going to ask that...did they inspect your cylinders/liners?   

Yes they inspected them and said that they were going to mill down the tops. The said that the liners did not move but that they were going to mill them down anyway.

[sadunbar]

What are they going to be able to do about the carbon build-up?

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

If they strip the heads and protect the seats and gasket surface, they can bead blast them and clean the carbon build up...

[sadunbar]

Yes they inspected them and said that they were going to mill down the tops. The said that the liners did not move but that they were going to mill them down anyway.

I hope they know what they are doing so they don't f$%k up your squish.  Your compression will increase a bit...

[hard10]

I hope they know what they are doing so they don't f$%k up your squish.  Your compression will increase a bit...

This is why I am relying on the advice of this group. I'm out on a limb when it comes to looking this deep into a motor but I would guess that it should not look this way.

[110tHunDer]

 
Have I mentioned lately how glad I am to have a 103?

That's a helluva note there, AJ.  That motor couldn't look worse if it had 119,200 on it.  What a mess.

[sadunbar]

This is why I am relying on the advice of this group. I'm out on a limb when it comes to looking this deep into a motor but I would guess that it should not look this way.

Well, yeah - it should not look that way.

Everyone who experiences this problem has to decide what they are comfortable doing...as there are obviously lots of options.  If you trust your MOCO dealer, let them fix it again.

Personally, once was enough for me and I replaced all the suspect parts with better aftermarket parts.

Given this is your third experience - unless something is done differently then the last two times - it will likely happen again.

At minimum, if it were me, I would ask your dealer to use aftermarket cylinders - like Axtell.  Black Diamond 110 is doing this now, along with some other aftermarket alternate parts.

What you are going thru is exactly what I tried to avoid by replacing virtually every possible suspect part with better aftermarket parts.

Sorry you are having to deal with this and Good Luck...

[Fired00d]

If they strip the heads and protect the seats and gasket surface, they can bead blast them and clean the carbon build up...

Thanks. You think the MoCo would be concerned (warranty) that? What would be the pro's/con's concerning having it done? Is there any other long term way of getting rid of it (gas treatments, etc)?

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[sadunbar]

Thanks. You think the MoCo would be concerned (warranty) that? What would be the pro's/con's concerning having it done? Is there any other long term way of getting rid of it (gas treatments, etc)?

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

I cannot imagine MOCO having any concerns with this as long as the seats and gaskets surfaces are protected.  There is not really any downside.  I sure would not bolt the heads back on without cleaning that mess off the heads.  I imagine the pistons are equally ugly.  I''d be concerned about the rings and the cylinders also...  But, I am pretty conservative about these things.

[hard10]

Thanks. You think the MoCo would be concerned (warranty) that? What would be the pro's/con's concerning having it done? Is there any other long term way of getting rid of it (gas treatments, etc)?

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

I was told this afternoon by the SM to spray cold water from a spray bottle into the intake once the engine was hot in order to get rid of the carbon.

[sadunbar]

I was told this afternoon by the SM to spray cold water from a spray bottle into the intake once the engine was hot in order to get rid of the carbon.

Urghhh...  Sorry, but not me...

Again, not trying to scare you...like I said, I am pretty conservative about this.  I would not put it back together like that.  Maybe you should ask Unbalanced for his thoughts also for a different perspective.....

[hard10]

Urghhh...  Sorry, but not me...

Again, not trying to scare you...like I said, I am pretty conservative about this.  I would not put it back together like that.  Maybe you should ask Unbalanced for his thoughts also for a different perspective.....

I sent him a PM as soon as I finised posting the pictures. He was the first one I thought of to shed some light on this situation.

Now I'm wondering if I should have waited until Monday to start this thread so that the MoCo people would see it first thing.

[Hoist!]

Well, yeah - it should not look that way.

Everyone who experiences this problem has to decide what they are comfortable doing...as there are obviously lots of options.  If you trust your MOCO dealer, let them fix it again.

Personally, once was enough for me and I replaced all the suspect parts with better aftermarket parts.

Given this is your third experience - unless something is done differently then the last two times - it will likely happen again.

At minimum, if it were me, I would ask your dealer to use aftermarket cylinders - like Axtell.  Black Diamond 110 is doing this now, along with some other aftermarket alternate parts.

What you are going thru is exactly what I tried to avoid by replacing virtually every possible suspect part with better aftermarket parts.

Sorry you are having to deal with this and Good Luck...

Either keep bringing it back to HD to fix whatever they want to. Do it as many times as it takes. But don't start changing engine components at the dealer, unless they recommend the parts and know how to build engines, which most don't. BD is doing his at a dealer. He says they're OK. Remember, I went down that road with a dealer who knew what they were doing also! Believe me, they don't!!! Either bring it to a real engine builder and give him the rebuild, or keep dealing with HD. But if you use aftermarket parts, and something fails, they can't w.....ty it with HD anymore. They won't have any parts to return for the w.....ty claim. Been there, done that, don't want the T-shirt, or any memory of the experience whatsoever!!!

Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

I was told this afternoon by the SM to spray cold water from a spray bottle into the intake once the engine was hot in order to get rid of the carbon.

That was his way of saying they won't do anything with it?

AJ, it sounds like they need a few rather pointed questions asked with answers demanded.  Things like why is baked on oil leakage turned to carbon ok?  And even if it's not ok is it not cleaned because it's not a specific failure. 

Depending on the answer to that ask him why the cylinders are being milled if there is no specific failure there?  Why are they doing one thing prophylactically but unwillingly to do the other?

There's no reason to shave a cylinder if there's no problem with it.  It's shaved because for some reason it's not flat or because you're bumping compression.  Make sure they tell you why they are REALLY putting the jugs on a milling machine.  If they won't give you a straight answer bitch to a higher pay grade. 

[sadunbar]

Either keep bringing it back to HD to fix whatever they want to. Do it as many times as it takes. But don't start changing engine components at the dealer, unless they recommend the parts and know how to build engines, which most don't. BD is doing his at a dealer. He says they're OK. Remember, I went down that road with a dealer who knew what they were doing also! Believe me, they don't!!! Either bring it to a real engine builder and give him the rebuild, or keep dealing with HD. But if you use aftermarket parts, and something fails, they can't w.....ty it with HD anymore. They won't have any parts to return for the w.....ty claim. Been there, done that, don't want the T-shirt, or any memory of the experience whatsoever!!!

Hoist!

Howie makes a good point of your warranty...  Some dealers will not warranty the use of aftermarket parts.  Others will stand behind the build.  I believe BD's dealer has agreed to stand behind the rebuild of his motor with the Axtell cylinders.  My dealer made the same offer, but I declined and did the build myself.  Other dealers will not continue your warranty if you use aftermarker motor parts, or install aftermarket motor parts.  You would have to have the conversation with your dealer and understand their position...

Scott

[Hoist!]

That was his way of saying they won't do anything with it?

AJ, it sounds like they need a few rather pointed questions asked with answers demanded.  Things like why is baked on oil leakage turned to carbon ok?  And even if it's not ok is it not cleaned because it's not a specific failure. 

Depending on the answer to that ask him why the cylinders are being milled if there is no specific failure there?  Why are they doing one thing prophylactically but unwillingly to do the other?

There's no reason to shave a cylinder if there's no problem with it.  It's shaved because for some reason it's not flat or because you're bumping compression.  Make sure they tell you why they are REALLY putting the jugs on a milling machine.  If they won't give you a straight answer bitch to a higher pay grade. 

If they don't cleanup those heads and replace the barrels, there's something wrong with these people. That's not normal wear. That's result of a poorly running engine, that's been passing oil past the head gasket.

Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

If they don't cleanup those heads and replace the barrels, there's something wrong with these people. That's not normal wear. That's result of a poorly running engine, that's been passing oil past the head gasket.

Hoist!

That there is something wrong with their approach was really the point to be made there Howie.  They are contradicting themselves by doing supposedly discretionary work on the cylinders but then being unwilling to do something much simpler and quicker like cleaning the heads.

There is a reason they are screwing with the jugs.  They're just not telling him what it is.

[Hoist!]

That there is something wrong with their approach was really the point to be made there Howie.  They are contradicting themselves by doing supposedly discretionary work on the cylinders but then being unwilling to do something much simpler and quicker like cleaning the heads.

There is a reason they are screwing with the jugs.  They're just not telling him what it is.

Now you see why I'm paying instead!

Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

Now you see why I'm paying instead!

Hoist!

Yeah, and you didn't even lose your pushrods !!!




































(instead it was ACRs and cooling fins and piston rings and an actual Russian mechanic and... well, there is a text limit on these posts!)

[Chief]

AJ,

Great pictures. A few thoughts.

One of your pictures showed the ACR. The sheath looks melted a bit. Have them inspect the wires.

Please make sure to get some pictures of the replacement 'experimental' gasket they are using to put it back together with.

Before they go ahead with the install, let's talk and get in touch with HD to see if we can get you a set of hand-picked jugs to go on with the new composite gasket.

I also agree with Scott to get fresh fasteners. Yours have been stretched three times and may be done.

Again, let's talk.

[JDOFLHRIDER]

Well mine is on it's second repair and i have close to 25,000 miles .I tried do get a number of new head gasket from dealer ,service manager said the gaskets came from harley in a box no numbers.When they took mine apart one liner moved alot and the other a lil.My valve guides were ok and motor man took .020 off seats to clean up and said our heads had the better parts except for the valve seats witch he said were the soft seats.My motor man said the next time apart i'll probally need to put seats in.I guess there are some 7mm valves on the new motors ,but we still have the american valves in ours.When they ordered my jugs they also ordered .005 over pistons ,because alot of times the new jugs arn't very  true or straight and if they are like the usual ones they get it will take .005 to clean them up.Now they are waiting for toque plates so they can check they jugs out. If I can i'll try to get some pic's of the new gasket.  RIDE SAFE JDO

[JDOFLHRIDER]

I have a fellow jester rider that is on his first fix with about 14,000 miles and hd overnighted gaskets to them .they also are doing new jugs,valve guides (old were loose).His bike has no extras or mods.I told him the best way to get rid of the heat was a pro tunner ,se aircleaner,dyno,and pipes.He figures the 34,000 dollars it should be good to go already.  RIDE SAFE JDO

[Unbalanced]

AJ,

Since you asked:   This whole subject is pretty damn pathetic for a 40k motorcyle that is flagship of the MoCo.

I would suggest someone else look at the motor another dealer based on some of the comments made.   I would not have anything milled down  If it needs ot be milled down they should replace it with new otherwise the only other reason to mill it down is to have headwork done and change the cylinders and walk away happy. 

In regards to the cylinders.

First off tell these F' nuts that they shouldnt be working on your bike.   They told you the clearance was good even though there was a noise, then if I recall correctly they told you they clearanced them.   There is no evidence there they even touched the rocker boxes.  That is a blatant lie or if they did not do it then they did not heed your complaint of noise which there is definitely evidence of hitting that went on.   Either case that is not good customer service no matter how you slice it.  Appeasement is not a good relationship.

1. Cylinders~demand new ones period end of subject.  If they refuse you get on the horn with the motor company and start to demand a new motor the cylinders will probably be their fall back.   Get from them to your satisfaction that if this happens a 4th time you want a new motor end of subject or you will be lemon lawing the bike.
2. demand new studs not the herky jerky it is fine ... fine does not equal what you have and why take another chance. 
3. those heads need to be cleaned up even if it is just a polish job, I would not put them back on unless they get a clean up job at the least.   I would not repeat not spray warm / hot or any other water into my intake.   (this is an old racing trick to remove carbon from your pistons and chamber not the gum you have in your chambers)   So to be clear I would not advocate doing this, but for those that want to know what you do is rev the engine after it is hot to say about 5000 rpm and give it a quick blast this will remove the carbon build up on the top of the pistons / chamber.)  This is not something that most of the people here /anywhere should be considering doing.   
4. At 20k miles get new springs put on the heads.   They make a set that handles up to .650 lift use those so later your choices arent limited.  I dont mean just bolt htem on either there is some tetious work there.
5. replace the lifters your basically going to rebuild the top end there is no reason not to pay for these out of your own pocket since it is apart.   More precautionary than anything else.
6  Do not allow them to put it back together until they get new cylinders put in new rings all new gaskets and clean the heads.   Yours look very similiar to mine if your remember the pictures.

Replace the compression releases since your already there and as Scott noted the wire looks burned.   They need to take their time and align that wire / shroud better so it is not another Harley repeat performance.

If you have any questions or want to discuss AJ call me on the cell.

I hope you get it fixed right this next go around,



If this were me it is time to be a bit aggressive with the dealership and motor company. 

[SilverDawg]

AJ,

What a great thread and some great shots illustrating the ongoing problems with these engines.

I have to say y'all are much more devoted to these motors than I was.  As I sit here and write this, I find it unbelievable that a company with over a hundred years of making engines, would continue to produce a product that has such serious issues. I am not naive enough to know that in the end, it is all about the money, but this is truly a disgrace to the MoCo.  One model year was bad enough, but to produce the same engine in the 2008 model year really blows my mind.  WTF will they do next year.

And on top of the mechanical issues, there are still way too many techs that have no idea how to fix a bike (as evidenced by the comments stated in this thread by those much more knowledgeable than I)

As you know, I ditched my bike after 5K miles to avoid the inevitable leaking heads.  I chose to take the easy way out because I do not have the time or patience, or mechanical ability to wait out a fix.  I really admire you folks who hang in there and attempt to get it right.  No way should anyone have to worry about this after spending what we do for these bikes.   I know my 2008 Ultra is not immune to problems, but so far so good.

I will continue to monitor the status of this as one of my friends still has a 2007 CUSE2 and has already had one repair.

I sincerely hope you get this repaired the right way and that one day, it finally sticks.  Best of luck and ride safe.

[hogasm]

AJ, I have had the opportunity to spend some time with the service rep in this area. They know there is a problem, a big problem.

In a joking statement by the rep, he said maybe the MOCO would come out with a service bulletin that a set screw should be installed in the cylinder to stop movement, since they are sooo cheap.

The MOCO will replace the cylinders.
There is a new set of gaskets....that have no part number....to replace the older ones.
Don't allow the dealer to continue any more work till the service rep sees the bike. You will probably get a new motor.
It appears to me that your service writer is an idiot, and his mechanics don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Probably why you are n for the 4th time.

Good luck

[Boatman]

Don't allow the dealer to continue any more work till the service rep sees the bike. You will probably get a new motor.
It appears to me that your service writer is an idiot, and his mechanics don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Probably why you are n for the 4th time.

Good luck

I'm with Brian, have the rep look at it and demand a new motor.  Good luck and keep us posted.  Bob

[hard10]

I wanted to post a few more that show the ACR wire where it has begun to melt. Thanks to Chief for pointing it out.

[hard10]

These may be redundant but they are different shots.

[hard10]

13

[hard10]

Last one. Maybe someone can see else that I am missing.

[sadunbar]

My only other comment would be that 19200 miles of your valve spring retainers hitting your rocker boxes has not done your valve guides any good.  The side load this interference has put on your valve guides has most likely caused premature wear at best...

[miker]

Horse hockey...Make em cover the differnece with axtell barrels!  Howie is on to something, get as much hd crap off as you can...When mine grenades its off to Wes...My wa----ty is up 7 months, not extended.

Best of luck AJ....When you gonna be back down?

Miker

[hard10]

Horse hockey...Make em cover the differnece with axtell barrels!  Howie is on to something, get as much hd crap off as you can...When mine grenades its off to Wes...My wa----ty is up 7 months, not extended.

Best of luck AJ....When you gonna be back down?

Miker

I'm hoping the bike will be done so I can make it down to Daytona and then head your way.

AJ

[Unbalanced]

So AJ where do you stand with the dealer, what are the plans at this point?    Now its our turn to ask for feedback 

[hard10]

So AJ where do you stand with the dealer, what are the plans at this point?    Now its our turn to ask for feedback 

Harry, the plan right now is to wait until tomorrow morning when I will get on a conference call with Chuck and John M. from Harley Davidson. He has been my contact point at the MoCo and I will let him know what I have seen so far. Chief and I have been in contact with him previously. At this point I have absolutely no intention of replacing any part of a $35,000 motorcycle with an aftermarket part.

I will ask the MoCo to replace the cylinders again with new parts as well as new pistons and heads. A very good point was made here that if the valves and springs have been hitting the rocker boxes for as long as they have, there is sure to be premature wear on those parts. I feel that this is the least that they can do considering I made them aware of the situation over six months ago and nothing was done at that time.

Time will tell,

AJ

[hard10]

I forgot to mention that the service department is closed on Sunday's now so there is no one in today.

[Midnight Rider]

AJ...maybe they'll give you a new motor!  Jerry got a new motor, if I remember correctly, after the second "fix".  What you've got pictures of is chit at this point.

[Twolanerider]

You got to quit flogging that mill AJ.

[110tHunDer]

You got to quit flogging that mill AJ.

Yeah, 19,200 miles is ridiculous!

[porthole]

A very good point was made here that if the valves and springs have been hitting the rocker boxes for as long as they have, there is sure to be premature wear on those parts.

Maybe that is where all the oil came from that is on the head and valves 
Bad guides will dump oil.

[hdbrad03]

The wife's bike looked this way and the valve stem seal had came loose from valve guide. This turned it into an oil pump and filled cylinder with oil. HD changed both cylinders, pistons and rings. Plus did a valve job on both heads.

[grc]

Yeah, 19,200 miles is ridiculous!

In some states 19k miles is the useful life of a motorcycle, at least for lemon law issues.  Obviously this engine is used up and needs to be replaced! 

Stick to your guns AJ, at the very least H-D should replace the complete top end after this many repairs.  And you might want to start looking for a better dealership to do your work.  Only the most lazy, incompetent fools would just slap a new gasket on that mess and call it a repair.

Jerry

[JDOFLHRIDER]

The wife's bike looked this way and the valve stem seal had came loose from valve guide. This turned it into an oil pump and filled cylinder with oil. HD cahnged both cylinders, pistons and rings. Plus did a valve job on both heads.

     The motor man at my dealer said that most of the new heads with 7mm valves do that and he usually puts older style of parts back in those heads.He said that the 110 heads off of mine have the better old style valves,but have soft seats that next time apart will need replaced.

[Twolanerider]

     The motor man at my dealer said that most of the new heads with 7mm valves do that and he usually puts older style of parts back in those heads.He said that the 110 heads off of mine have the better old style valves,but have soft seats that next time apart will need replaced.

That's optimisitic....

[Fired00d]

That's optimisitic....

Or maybe "honesty".

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[JDOFLHRIDER]

Well guy the works on my motor at the dealership has the won a few adhra pro-stock championships , was schooled by a oldtimer ,and is very good(been doing for 20yrs). When my new jugs got to dealership ,he won't install till checked with tourqe plates and had .005 pistons ordered to because harley jugs arn't straight enough for him.When he suggests something i will let him do it,and he's always been right on. He even took the time to show me difference in our heads and stock 7mm ones. I would hate to not trust the guy working on my bike. ride safe JDO

[porthole]

AJ, Since you asked: 

I would not repeat not spray warm / hot or any other water into my intake.   (this is an old racing trick to remove carbon from your pistons and chamber not the gum you have in your chambers)   So to be clear I would not advocate doing this, but for those that want to know what you do is rev the engine after it is hot to say about 5000 rpm and give it a quick blast this will remove the carbon build up on the top of the pistons / chamber.) 

This is not something that most of the people here /anywhere should be considering doing. 

This was something we did back in the late 70's - early 80's when the gasoline compositions kept changing and causing driveability problems.

Was never a warranty code, but the warranty - factory reps would authorize it and give us a general code to use.

I don't see how it will work on a bike anyway.

Our procedure was to hold the throttle open far enough to run the engine between 4-5000 rpm, then "pour" water down the intake, as the engine slows down you open the throttle and keep pouring water almost to the point of having the water stall the engine at WOT.

We would typically run at least a gallon through the enine this way.

[porthole]

     The motor man at my dealer said that most of the new heads with 7mm valves do that and he usually puts older style of parts back in those heads.He said that the 110 heads off of mine have the better old style valves,but have soft seats that next time apart will need replaced.

This is amazing in this day and age.

[porthole]

I would hate to not trust the guy working on my bike.

The most important quality in the tech working on your bike. Even if he isn't that good, you need to be satisfied.

[Chief]

This was something we did back in the late 70's - early 80's when the gasoline compositions kept changing and causing driveability problems.

Was never a warranty code, but the warranty - factory reps would authorize it and give us a general code to use.

I don't see how it will work on a bike anyway.

Our procedure was to hold the throttle open far enough to run the engine between 4-5000 rpm, then "pour" water down the intake, as the engine slows down you open the throttle and keep pouring water almost to the point of having the water stall the engine at WOT.

We would typically run at least a gallon through the enine this way.

Duane,

I'm glad you mentioned that. This is an old timers trick and it is very effective. It's not warm water or hot water or soapy water, just water.

Get the engine to operating temperature like after a nice ride. Remove the air cleaner and anything else blocking your access to the throttle plate. Get a hand pump sprayer and fill it to the top with tap water. Start the bike and hold the revs to about 2,500. START SPRAYING!!!! As the rpm drops, open more throttle to keep it around 2,500. You may want to have a second person on the throttle to keep it at 2,500 rpm. Pump like heck, as fast and as hard as you can. Spray the water right at the intake, keeping the revs about 2,500, until the bottle is empty. When the water is gone, bolt everything back up and go for a ride.

And yes, I am serious. 

[grc]

Duane,

I'm glad you mentioned that. This is an old timers trick and it is very effective. It's not warm water or hot water or soapy water, just water.

Get the engine to operating temperature like after a nice ride. Remove the air cleaner and anything else blocking your access to the throttle plate. Get a hand pump sprayer and fill it to the top with tap water. Start the bike and hold the revs to about 2,500. START SPRAYING!!!! As the rpm drops, open more throttle to keep it around 2,500. You may want to have a second person on the throttle to keep it at 2,500 rpm. Pump like heck, as fast and as hard as you can. Spray the water right at the intake, keeping the revs about 2,500, until the bottle is empty. When the water is gone, bolt everything back up and go for a ride.

And yes, I am serious. 

Yup, it will in fact work.  The thermal shock created when the water vapor hits the hot piston, valve, and head loosens the carbon.  You just have to be careful to make sure it's water vapor and not a solid slug of liquid.  This method has been used for more years than I've been alive, but only when you want to decarbonize without dismantling the engine.  It makes no sense at all to put a dismantled engine back together with heavy deposits and then do the water treatment.  That's just stupidity and lazyness on the part of the so-called tech.

Jerry

[vagabond6542]

AJ,
I have a question, is the Jester completely stock?
The crud looks as if that the cylinder had been run rich and the mixture been settling around the intake valve.

Chief,
You and I talked about head configuration just recently, you could see what I was talking about.

Just my .02 observation. 

[Chief]

AJ,
I have a question, is the Jester completely stock?
The crud looks as if that the cylinder had been run rich and the mixture been settling around the intake valve.

Chief,
You and I talked about head configuration just recently, you could see what I was talking about.

Just my .02 observation. 

AJ is running a PClll on the bike. It might have even been a map I sent to him. The pictures do indicate that the rear was running richer than the front. The exhaust valves show that pretty clearly. Richer means cooler, so I guess the temps oculd have been worse than they actually were.

[sadunbar]

AJ is running a PClll on the bike. It might have even been a map I sent to him. The pictures do indicate that the rear was running richer than the front. The exhaust valves show that pretty clearly. Richer means cooler, so I guess the temps oculd have been worse than they actually were.

I am not so sure you can detect lean vs. rich in the pictures AJ posted.  Pretty good bet you are seeing the effects of burning oil, not excess gas.

[Chief]

I am not so sure you can detect lean vs. rich in the pictures AJ posted.  Pretty good bet you are seeing the effects of burning oil, not excess gas.

I don't buy the burning oil argument. I don't understand how a gasket can let low pressure oil in while not letting high pressure combustion gases out. Now, if the valve guide seals are bad, that's a different story, but I don't think oil is getting in at the head gasket.

[sadunbar]

I don't buy the burning oil argument. I don't understand how a gasket can let low pressure oil in while not letting high pressure combustion gases out. Now, if the valve guide seals are bad, that's a different story, but I don't think oil is getting in at the head gasket.

Chief,

Look at the picture in reply 13 - especially around the spark plug.  JMO, but that doesn't look much like carbon from rich to me...

Scott

[Hoist!]

The oil will leak outside past the gasket on the upstroke, and gets sucked in on the downstroke. So you would be burning any oil that got sucked in on the next power stroke.

Hoist!

[vagabond6542]

Chief,

Look at the picture in reply 13 - especially around the spark plug.  JMO, but that doesn't look much like carbon from rich to me...
Scott

Sad,

You are correct about the chamber carbon, which encompasses the entire chamber. that came from the engine trying to burn off the oil that was getting into the engine on the intake stroke. Remember, we are running a aspirating engine.  
The problem of gasket failure caused the carbon build up.

Geo

[Chief]

Chief,

Look at the picture in reply 13 - especially around the spark plug.  JMO, but that doesn't look much like carbon from rich to me...

Scott

I know what you're saying, I just don't think oil can be getting in if combustion air isn't getting out.

[Chief]

The oil will leak outside past the gasket on the upstroke, and gets sucked in on the downstroke. So you would be burning any oil that got sucked in on the next power stroke.

Hoist!

I'm sorry. I just don't buy it. Total vaccum is only 14.7 psi differential. These motors crank with 150 psi without combustion. How much pressure is created under combustion? I can't accept that oil, which is thicker than air, is being sucked in with less than 15 psi of pressure differential while high pressure combustion gases are not getting forced out through the same hole. That theory just doesn't hold water.

Sorry, but I'm just not a buyer of that one. Physics says it won't work.

We get piston blow-by, not suck-in. If it's oil, it needs to be coming from somewhere else besides past the gasket.

[sadunbar]

Choices are valve guides, piston rings, head gaskets or thru the intake....

[Chief]

Choices are valve guides, piston rings, head gaskets or thru the intake....

At least we know it's not a cracked block.

[vagabond6542]

I'm sorry. I just don't buy it. Total vaccum is only 14.7 psi differential. These motors crank with 150 psi without combustion. How much pressure is created under combustion? I can't accept that oil, which is thicker than air, is being sucked in with less than 15 psi of pressure differential while high pressure combustion gases are not getting forced out through the same hole. That theory just doesn't hold water.

Sorry, but I'm just not a buyer of that one. Physics says it won't work.

We get piston blow-by, not suck-in. If it's oil, it needs to be coming from somewhere else besides past the gasket.

Chief,

I came out the Semi-conductor field some twenty years ago. I dealt with Plasma Etchers that had vacuum in the Milli-torr range.
The thought of oil getting into the cylinder on the intake stroke and high compression going out the same way would not be farfetched. Remember, there is a gasket design problem along with a couple of possible  unknowns.  
I know, I've seen vacuum pull teflon oil out of a roughing pump when a chamber was left under vacuum when shut down.

Just my .02.  

[vagabond6542]

Chief,

I came out the Semi-conductor field some twenty years ago. I dealt with Plasma Etchers that had vacuum in the Milli-torr range.
The thought of oil getting into the cylinder on the intake stroke and high compression not going out the same way would not be farfetched. Remember, there is a gasket design problem along with a couple of possible  unknowns.  
I know, I've seen vacuum pull teflon oil out of a roughing pump when a chamber was left under vacuum when shut down.

Just my .02.  

Sorry hit the wrong key. Oops

[Chief]

Chief,

I came out the Semi-conductor field some twenty years ago. I dealt with Plasma Etchers that had vacuum in the Milli-torr range.
The thought of oil getting into the cylinder on the intake stroke and high compression going out the same way would not be farfetched. Remember, there is a gasket design problem along with a couple of possible  unknowns.  
I know, I've seen vacuum pull teflon oil out of a roughing pump when a chamber was left under vacuum when shut down.

Just my .02.  

All of the gasket problems have been related to keeping the non-pressurized oil draining out of the head going in the right direction. I haven't seen any gaskets that were burned up, or any that have shown any signs of blow-by at the fire ring. The tops of the sleeves have all looked fine, all the way around. The seal looks intact, so does the sealing surface of the heads. I don't think oil is getting in past the fire ring. The evidence just isn't there.

All of this burning oil talk is because the pictures of carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. I haven't heard anyone complain of high oil consumption or complaining of blue smoke out the tail pipe or plug fouling or other normal symptoms of burning oil.

Maybe instead of burning oil we're dealing with a poorly designed combustion chamber that isn't efficiently burning the fuel which is leading to some extra carbon build up? I'm more inclined to put my money on that one, at least until I see evidence otherwise.

[sadunbar]

Chief,

  AJ's pictures look far worse then my motor when it came apart.  My front cylinder, piston and head looked like a normal properly running engine should.  Nice tan color on the piston, head chamber and spark plug.   My rear cylinder had heavy carbon build up on the cylinder fire ring, piston, spark plug and head.  My rear piston rings were shot - my front piston rings were normal.  As bad as my rear cylinder components looked, they were nothing as compared to AJ's.  I am not suggesting where the oil came from in AJ's pictures, but IMO, AJ's components show more then carbon buildup.  Maybe his valve guides are shot from 19K of spring retainers hitting the rocker boxes?  Or maybe his rings are shot?  But his pictures indicate more then carbon buildup from a poorly designed combustion chamber, ect.  IMO, oil is finding its way into the combustion chamber from somewhere...

Scott

[vagabond6542]

All of the gasket problems have been related to keeping the non-pressurized oil draining out of the head going in the right direction. I haven't seen any gaskets that were burned up, or any that have shown any signs of blow-by at the fire ring. The tops of the sleeves have all looked fine, all the way around. The seal looks intact, so does the sealing surface of the heads. I don't think oil is getting in past the fire ring. The evidence just isn't there.

All of this burning oil talk is because the pictures of carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. I haven't heard anyone complain of high oil consumption or complaining of blue smoke out the tail pipe or plug fouling or other normal symptoms of burning oil.

Maybe instead of burning oil we're dealing with a poorly designed combustion chamber that isn't efficiently burning the fuel which is leading to some extra carbon build up? I'm more inclined to put my money on that one, at least until I see evidence otherwise.

I agree and I disagree.  The fueling of the engine would have to be very high to have the carbon glaze that is shown on the heads in the chamber area. If the plugs were shown in the pictures, they would confirm the oil burning by their color and deposits.  It doesn't take much oil to cause carbon glaze in a chamber. Just a few drops now and then.  The gasket design is for keeping the combustion gases in the chamber, the design is not for keeping anything out under direst conditions. Maybe someday MoCo will get that together.
JMHO

[ultrafxr]

Anyone asked AJ if his engine was using oil?  You'd think with that much buildup you would see some oil comsumption wouldn't you? 

[porthole]

All that carbon could be from the gas as well.

[hard10]

Anyone asked AJ if his engine was using oil?  You'd think with that much buildup you would see some oil comsumption wouldn't you? 

No. Oil consumption was near zero.

Hard10

[Twolanerider]

No. Oil consumption was near zero.

Hard10

Have you found out more from any part of Harley AJ?  Are they still only going to put it back together on the cheap or have they conceded to do a more thorough and correct job?

[hard10]

Have you found out more from any part of Harley AJ?  Are they still only going to put it back together on the cheap or have they conceded to do a more thorough and correct job?

Yes. The new gasket part no. is 16801-07AJ.

AJ

[Hoist!]

Yes. The new gasket part no. is 16801-07AJ.

AJ

Just be glad it's not 16801-07HOIST

 

Hoist!

[hard10]

Just be glad it's not 16801-07HOIST

 

Hoist!

At least my way it'll run.

[Hoist!]

At least my way it'll run.

Runnin' and leakin', leakin' and runnin'! A terrible web we weave! Hopefully you can stop runnin' to HD dealers fixin' it one day. I'm aiming at fixing. That's why it ain't runnin'!!!

Hoist!

[hard10]

Warranty

[hard10]

Oh, and a free wash job!

[Hoist!]

Warranty

FTW!
Hoist!

[hard10]

FTW!
Hoist!

First let me preface this by saying that Chief is sitting here with me...

With that said... we all want to know which cost more... FTW or I Do ?

[Hoist!]

First let me preface this by saying that Chief is sitting here with me...

With that said... we all want to know which cost more... FTW or I Do ?

FTW for sure!

But if I'm done once and for all, and a good hipo engine, it'll be worth it!

Hoist!

[ultrafxr]

Yes. The new gasket part no. is 16801-07AJ.

AJ

I think the one I got was p/n 16801-07FU

[vagabond6542]

I wish you the best of luck AJ,
You are in good hands with the Chief.
He and I discussed a probable that could be a problem with the 110's.
If you got the extended warranty, use it and pay for the difference on a better part.
Just a thought.

Vag

[Unbalanced]

Chief,

I think there is an explaination and I believe there was oil inside AJ's combustion chamber.  The rubber piece in the valve springs that sits on the retainer is acting like a plunger and allowing oil to get into the combustion chamber by sucking it inbetween the seat and then running down the valve itself.   There is fix to it, it is a newer non harley vulcanized piece that I will post a picture of in a bit.   A builder I know is using these and has not had any issues with this since he switched the springs over.

Pictures forth coming.

[Unbalanced]

Pictures.

[sadunbar]

Pictures.

Harry - whose seal?  who makes it?   

Scott

[Unbalanced]

.

[Unbalanced]

1st two pictures are what are in the springs.  Blue one is the replacement.

[Unbalanced]

Inside of the replacement.

[Unbalanced]

Final one to compare the heights / looks

[Unbalanced]

Scott,

I can find out next week for you.   The guy who showed me this doesnt want to be caught up in any of this, so let me see what I can do on Monday/Tuesday.  The only reason I am posting on it is because I felt a big piece of information was missing and worth being considered.  AJ's chambers looked similiar to mine and it was oil found in my chambers.   There are pictures of this somewhere on the site.

[sadunbar]

Scott,

I can find out next week for you.   The guy who showed me this doesnt want to be caught up in any of this, so let me see what I can do on Monday/Tuesday.  The only reason I am posting on it is because I felt a big piece of information was missing and worth being considered.  AJ's chambers looked similiar to mine and it was oil found in my chambers.   There are pictures of this somewhere on the site.

thanks Harry - I'll be watching!   

[Chief]

Thanks Harry. Interesting.

[JDOFLHRIDER]

Chief,Pictures forth coming.


I think there is an explaination and I believe there was oil inside AJ's combustion chamber.  The rubber piece in the valve springs that sits on the retainer is acting like a plunger and allowing oil to get into the combustion chamber by sucking it inbetween the seat and then running down the valve itself.   There is fix to it, it is a newer non harley vulcanized piece that I will post a picture of in a bit.   A builder I know is using these and has not had any issues with this since he switched the springs over.

I mentioned in a earlier a post that my motor man said that the 7mm valve seals leaked and pumped oil (shown in unbalanced's pic's). When he had mine apart I have the older style seals with american valves.If he would have found seals in pic's we were gonna change my heads to the older style guides,seals and springs. he said that would be money well spent. But he did find that my valve seats were softer than he liked.Next time apart probally have to change.
I'm still waiting on torque plates and he's leave to race in daytona next week so hope fully when he gets back the plates will be here and i'll be ready for easter. RIDE SAFE JDO

[vagabond6542]

Chief,

The thought of oil getting into the cylinder on the intake stroke and high compression going out the same way would not be farfetched. Remember, there is a gasket design problem along with a couple of possible  unknowns.  
 

I think one of the unknowns has surfaced.  Back in the 60's, automotive engines were notorious with intake valve guide problems. You would think motorcycles engine engineers would have followed their lead to improve their products as well.

[Chief]

An important item to mention here is that there would be NO appreciable correlation between a leaky head gasket and leaky valve seals.

If AJ's are leaking and allowing oil to get into the combustion chamber and cover it with carbon, then it's happening in yours too if you've got the same seals. Can someone determine the magnitude of this? Which other years / motors use the same seal? Is this a widespread problem? Should everyone be concerned?

[JDOFLHRIDER]

My motor man says the ones in the pic's have had a problem ,there is a short one with out metal cup thai is better.He says oil gets under the metal cup and makes like a pump and pushes oils in motor.When he did my heads i have the older short ones.He says the metal cup ones are on 7mm valves.  RIDE SAFE JDO

[HogBreath]

Aj,

What did you end up having done to your engine? Did they give you a new engine or....??

[hard10]

Aj,

What did you end up having done to your engine? Did they give you a new engine or....??

Ken, they pulled the heads, clearanced the rocker boxes, honed the cylinders, lathed the cylinders, installed the new gaskets (-07AJ) & put it all back together. The said that they retorqued the head bolts to the "new" specifications. The day after it was done, Chief & I did the MSF experienced rider course in Charleston and there seemed to be no problems. Ironically, Tuesday night while I was at the local HOG meeting, the regional HOG rep (Arnie) was telling the story of how back in the '80's the EPA came down hard on Harley Davidson for having "leaky" motorcycles. He didn't mention anything about the 110"'s.

No new engine yet though.

AJ

[HogBreath]

I was just curious AJ. I've got a leaker again and about to make some decisions for it's future.

[hard10]

I was just curious AJ. I've got a leaker again and about to make some decisions for it's future.

One thing I would have done different and as soon as it leaks again is I would have changed the cam. With this many miles on it now it's probably time for an upgrade.

[vagabond6542]

I was just curious AJ. I've got a leaker again and about to make some decisions for it's future.

HogBreath,
Do youself a favor, have the crank runout done. Even if it is on your dollar, because if you are stock and have a bad runout. You are the winner, a new engine.

Vagbond

[HogBreath]

well chit...Dealer just called me...HD has come out with another NEW gasket. Graphite Gasket. Wrench is convinced this will solve ALLLLLLLLL of the problems.

Has anyone else heard of THESE gaskets?

They must be tough enough to keep the cylinder liners from shifting too. AND at the same time, they'll true up the crank shaft. AND fix the heated grips problem. IT's a wonder Gasket!

[Midnight Rider]

well chit...Dealer just called me...HD has come out with another NEW gasket. Graphite Gasket. Wrench is convinced this will solve ALLLLLLLLL of the problems.

Has anyone else heard of THESE gaskets?

They must be tough enough to keep the cylinder liners from shifting too. AND at the same time, they'll true up the crank shaft. AND fix the heated grips problem. IT's a wonder Gasket!

Ken...I suspect that's the same graphite looking gasket they've been using the past couple of months...there's a pic on here somewhere of it.  I'd let them try it, after they've checked for liner movement, and crank runout.

Did your grips quit working?

[Fired00d]

Ken...I suspect that's the same graphite looking gasket they've been using the past couple of months...there's a pic on here somewhere of it.  I'd let them try it, after they've checked for liner movement, and crank runout.

Did your grips quit working?

I believe this is what you're looking for/talking about (bottom gasket)...

Was taken from this thread/post - New Head Gaskets.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[HogBreath]

Ken...I suspect that's the same graphite looking gasket they've been using the past couple of months...there's a pic on here somewhere of it.  I'd let them try it, after they've checked for liner movement, and crank runout.

Did your grips quit working?

the grips are sparodic. Hot as hell sometimes, lukewarm sometimes. Hasn't really been an issue with me though.

I mean...I'll let them try the gasket if they wanna, but, I need a commitment from them that they'll still fix the SOB after the 2 year warranty is up.

[HogBreath]

Thanks Gary. That must be it. THERE's no way that will fix everything. Oh well. This is getting frustrating.

[Twolanerider]

Thanks Gary. That must be it. THERE's no way that will fix everything. Oh well. This is getting frustrating.

Axtell's 110 cylinders and a set of fitted pistons are about $1200 .

[hard10]

Thanks Gary. That must be it. THERE's no way that will fix everything. Oh well. This is getting frustrating.

I know you're Howie's brother by another mother but do you really want to go his route?

[hard10]

Oh, BTW, the dealer called yesterday and sais the replacement heated grips are in ( one month later).

[Hoist!]

Axtell's 110 cylinders and a set of fitted pistons are about $1200 .

Key word being FITTED!!!

Hoist!

[HogBreath]

Axtell's 110 cylinders and a set of fitted pistons are about $1200 .

What's 1200 to a man of means?

[ccr]

What's 1200 to a man of means?

R. E. M. - King of The Road
(roger miller)


(trailers for sale
Trailers for sale
Trailers for sale)

I ain’t got no cigarettes
It takes four hours of pushin’ broom
To buy a four-by-twelve two-bit room
I’m a man of means, by no means
King of the road

(chorus)
Trailers for sale or rent
Rooms to let, fifty cents
No cars, no pool, no pets
I ain’t got no cigarettes
It takes four hours of pushin’ broom
To buy a four-by-twelve two-bit room
I’m a man of means, by no means
King of the road

(take slower)

It takes four hours of pushin’ broom
To buy a four-by-twelve two-bit room
I’m a man of means, by no means
King of the road

(one more time)

(repeat chorus)

[ultrafxr]

the grips are sparodic. Hot as hell sometimes, lukewarm sometimes. Hasn't really been an issue with me though.

I mean...I'll let them try the gasket if they wanna, but, I need a commitment from them that they'll still fix the SOB after the 2 year warranty is up.

Lol Ken.  If you get 'em to agree to that plz let us know.  Xtd warranty is only way I know to make this happen.  Good luck.

[HogBreath]

Lol Ken.  If you get 'em to agree to that plz let us know.  Xtd warranty is only way I know to make this happen.  Good luck.

Jerry, the guy has already told me--DON'T Worry about it, we'll take care of it. We'll see I guess.

[hard10]

Jerry, the guy has already told me--DON'T Worry about it, we'll take care of it. We'll see I guess.

That's what I used to say to my ex-wife!

[Hoist!]

Jerry, the guy has already told me--DON'T Worry about it, we'll take care of it. We'll see I guess.

Wanna buy a bridge? The check's in the mail! I love you! And I won't...

Oh nevermind!!!

Hoist!

[TimBone]

Do you think one of them Honda or Kawasaki engines would fit in our Ultra frames?!?!
I mean...I'm just saying...
I am on second set of gaskets and this past Friday my starter ring gear just grenaded itself.
Only 9000 miles on this pig.  Again, should have kept the 04 Road King Classic as in my picture.

[VAZHOG]

That why ever rider needs more than one type of bike in his stable.

[CVOThunder]

Duane,

I'm glad you mentioned that. This is an old timers trick and it is very effective. It's not warm water or hot water or soapy water, just water.

Get the engine to operating temperature like after a nice ride. Remove the air cleaner and anything else blocking your access to the throttle plate. Get a hand pump sprayer and fill it to the top with tap water. Start the bike and hold the revs to about 2,500. START SPRAYING!!!! As the rpm drops, open more throttle to keep it around 2,500. You may want to have a second person on the throttle to keep it at 2,500 rpm. Pump like heck, as fast and as hard as you can. Spray the water right at the intake, keeping the revs about 2,500, until the bottle is empty. When the water is gone, bolt everything back up and go for a ride.

And yes, I am serious. 

While this is over 6 years old it was what I was looking for. I've also used automatic transmission fluid but you would need to let it sit for 24 hours and the smoke out is terrible. That was pre convertor days but water would probably be the best idea. GRC posted on this so maybe he and others will reply. After reading jwservs valve problem I thought this might help decarbon others bike's as well.

Moderators, there's some good info in this thread but if you prefer to pull it into a new thread that would be cool.