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Author Topic: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself  (Read 8339 times)

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Twolanerider

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Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« on: April 17, 2008, 12:28:21 AM »

Just flipped to this section and noticed the current threads here.  With only a few exceptions it's still all (different) 110 issues.  More than a year in to production. 

Please don't take this wrongly. I feel for each and every one of you.  But I am so glad I don't have one of thise engines in either of my bikes.

With modern standards it's almost unbelievable.  It's certainly inexcusable.  Sorry guys....
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DCFIREMANN

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2008, 06:27:18 AM »

Don I have to agree with you. It has gotten so bad on this board it is now getting boring to say the least. The threads are all the same. 110 porblems.

Man my 103 looks better and better everyday.

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2008, 06:52:48 AM »

Well, we're dealing with these POS engines. We had to endure your assualt on bad Paint Jobs. Deal with our misery like we dealt with yours! :P ::) ??? :o ;D ;D ;D

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2008, 07:42:43 AM »



Dawg, did you have paint problems?
Don't remember that!
Which bike?
This getting older is rough.
Seems to affect my memory.
But that's all!  ::)

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2008, 08:12:15 AM »

Just flipped to this section and noticed the current threads here.  With only a few exceptions it's still all (different) 110 issues.  More than a year in to production. 

Please don't take this wrongly. I feel for each and every one of you.  But I am so glad I don't have one of thise engines in either of my bikes.

With modern standards it's almost unbelievable.  It's certainly inexcusable.  Sorry guys....

Don that's one way of looking at it. I have no choice now but to look at it another way.

Yes, I'll spend a few bucks, but, I'll end up with a more reliable, stronger better engine when I'm finished. How many people end up spending $2,000 & up on their stock HD engine anyhow? I'd guess a fair number of people do. If you love the bike and plan to keep it, you do what you have to do. If I had it to do over again, I'd still buy this bike.

I don't disagree, it's pitiful HD puts us in this position. It is what it is. to fight them would take way more effort than I'd ever be willing to put into it.
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Twolanerider

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2008, 10:47:43 AM »

Well, we're dealing with these POS engines. We had to endure your assualt on bad Paint Jobs. Deal with our misery like we dealt with yours! :P ::) ??? :o ;D ;D ;D

Hoist! 8)


Not an assault at all Howie.  Feel terrible for everyone dealing with these.  It's just rotten y'all have to do it.  And it's crazy both that Harley didn't have their act together to begin with or that after this much time they still don't.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 10:51:41 AM by Twolanerider »
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Twolanerider

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2008, 10:51:17 AM »

Don that's one way of looking at it. I have no choice now but to look at it another way.

Yes, I'll spend a few bucks, but, I'll end up with a more reliable, stronger better engine when I'm finished. How many people end up spending $2,000 & up on their stock HD engine anyhow? I'd guess a fair number of people do. If you love the bike and plan to keep it, you do what you have to do. If I had it to do over again, I'd still buy this bike.

I don't disagree, it's pitiful HD puts us in this position. It is what it is. to fight them would take way more effort than I'd ever be willing to put into it.

Couldn't agree more Ken.  Just keep on keeping on.  Make it what you need to.  And keep right on riding.

The one's that worry me most are cases like a buddy of mine whose not on the site here.  He scrimped and scraped and saved and had a pretty good row with his wife to get his Ultra instead of a lesser expensive standard model she thought they could afford.  It was a big deal in the family.  If his motor crapped out not only couldn't they afford to just make it right she'd be all over him for the "bad choice."  Damn things....
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2008, 11:00:00 AM »

Couldn't agree more Ken.  Just keep on keeping on.  Make it what you need to.  And keep right on riding.

The one's that worry me most are cases like a buddy of mine whose not on the site here.  He scrimped and scraped and saved and had a pretty good row with his wife to get his Ultra instead of a lesser expensive standard model she thought they could afford.  It was a big deal in the family.  If his motor crapped out not only couldn't they afford to just make it right she'd be all over him for the "bad choice."  Damn things....

Totally agree there. The guy who spent his last cent just to purchase the bike.......Maybe shoulda bought a Jap bike.
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ultrafxr

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2008, 11:06:39 AM »

The moco world is kind of like politics - the lesser of evils.  Had a 103 and liked it fine, but had the cam chain tensioner problems and not as much grunt as I'd like.  My 110 with just D&Ds, RYO and sert dyno tune is unbelievably strong.  So spend the bucks to get the 103 like you want it or fix the 110.  Mox nix.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2008, 11:08:17 AM »

Couldn't agree more Ken.  Just keep on keeping on.  Make it what you need to.  And keep right on riding.

The one's that worry me most are cases like a buddy of mine whose not on the site here.  He scrimped and scraped and saved and had a pretty good row with his wife to get his Ultra instead of a lesser expensive standard model she thought they could afford.  It was a big deal in the family.  If his motor crapped out not only couldn't they afford to just make it right she'd be all over him for the "bad choice."  Damn things....

I dread that day... "I told you not to buy that bike"
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2008, 11:11:11 AM »

Just flipped to this section and noticed the current threads here.  With only a few exceptions it's still all (different) 110 issues.  More than a year in to production. 

Please don't take this wrongly. I feel for each and every one of you.  But I am so glad I don't have one of thise engines in either of my bikes.

With modern standards it's almost unbelievable.  It's certainly inexcusable.  Sorry guys....

Hey Don - Instead of posting that here, should we e-mail that screen shot to H-D customer service?  Of course the reply would be, "You can't believe everything you read on the internet."
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ultrafxr

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2008, 11:12:36 AM »

Hey Don - Instead of posting that here, should we e-mail that screen shot to H-D customer service?  Of course the reply would be, "You can't believe everything you read on the internet."
What I've heard from them is you can't believe "anything" on you read on the internet, lol.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2008, 11:15:18 AM »

Hey Don - Instead of posting that here, should we e-mail that screen shot to H-D customer service?  Of course the reply would be, "You can't believe everything you read on the internet."


That's true Travis.  None of y'all are actually real here.  This whole place is a figment of my addled imagination.  In fact I'll show up at York next week and be all alone except for The Voices and my imaginary friends all their imaginary 110s.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2008, 11:18:51 AM »


That's true Travis.  None of y'all are actually real here.  This whole place is a figment of my addled imagination.  In fact I'll show up at York next week and be all alone except for The Voices and my imaginary friends all their imaginary 110s.

The sad part is, you might be right.  You may end up being there alone next week.  What with all the 110's being in the shop.

I apologize, that wasn't funny.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2008, 11:25:22 AM »

I dread that day... "I told you not to buy that bike"

I've already seen that day in my house. It's not as bad as you'd think if you keep humble and just agree. JD has already caught on to "Yes Dear" and it insults her anymore. I started "hanging my head" a couple of years ago, and she's caught on to that too. Now-a-days I'm having to offer her in writing, "I was wrong". In 2009, I'm thinking I'll have to have it notorized. By 2010, I'm hoping she makes a mistake, and that'd buy me a couple of years.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2008, 11:27:56 AM »

I've already seen that day in my house. It's not as bad as you'd think if you keep humble and just agree. JD has already caught on to "Yes Dear" and it insults her anymore. I started "hanging my head" a couple of years ago, and she's caught on to that too. Now-a-days I'm having to offer her in writing, "I was wrong". In 2009, I'm thinking I'll have to have it notorized. By 2010, I'm hoping she makes a mistake, and that'd buy me a couple of years.

You know that'll never happen.  ::)
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2008, 11:29:25 AM »

I've already seen that day in my house. It's not as bad as you'd think if you keep humble and just agree. JD has already caught on to "Yes Dear" and it insults her anymore. I started "hanging my head" a couple of years ago, and she's caught on to that too. Now-a-days I'm having to offer her in writing, "I was wrong". In 2009, I'm thinking I'll have to have it notorized. By 2010, I'm hoping she makes a mistake, and that'd buy me a couple of years.

Don't worry Ken, I'm a Notoray.  I'll bring the stamp with me to the next GTG and we'll set you up with some pre-notorized sheets.  You'll just fill in the blanks and sign.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2008, 11:40:09 AM »

You know that'll never happen.  ::)

Even if she does, somehow, it'll be my fault ....directly...or indirectly. Even if it was Totally her fault, I wouldn't have the gonzos to call her on it.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2008, 11:46:43 AM »

Hey Don - Instead of posting that here, should we e-mail that screen shot to H-D customer service? 
"

Not until after we tour York next Friday.   I still think Don has set us up big time for this tour and there's not a chance in the MOCO letting us in.   Might have to use tape on Howie.   :)
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2008, 11:55:12 AM »

Not until after we tour York next Friday.   I still think Don has set us up big time for this tour and there's not a chance in the MOCO letting us in.   Might have to use tape on Howie.   :)

I am sick that I will not be there.  Will someone please take a camera and video tape Howie?  I know he will not be able to resist showing the asemblers how they should be putting these engines togather.  I already feel sorry for the tour guide.  They have no idea the ambush that is waiting for them.   :huepfenlol2:
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2008, 11:56:58 AM »

I am sick that I will not be there.  Will someone please take a camera and video tape Howie?  I know he will not be able to resist showing the asemblers how they should be putting these engines togather.  I already feel sorry for the tour guide.  They have no idea the ambush that is waiting for them.   :huepfenlol2:

I asked Howie to do me a favor while there, please do not film that...
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Twolanerider

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2008, 12:03:04 PM »

I am sick that I will not be there.  Will someone please take a camera and video tape Howie?  I know he will not be able to resist showing the asemblers how they should be putting these engines togather.  I already feel sorry for the tour guide.  They have no idea the ambush that is waiting for them.   :huepfenlol2:

Fortunately for all concerned the CVO line doesn't assemble engines.  They get assemblies to place in frames.  The CVO assemblers are victims nearly as much as we are.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2008, 12:07:04 PM »

Head Gasket, Head Gasket, Head Gasket...MoCo fix this!!!

We would all be much happier with at least this fixed. Not totally but we the customers might be a bit more reasonable about the other issues.

Why is it taking sooo long to fix?  :confused5:
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2008, 12:11:08 PM »

Fortunately for all concerned the CVO line doesn't assemble engines.  They get assemblies to place in frames.  The CVO assemblers are victims nearly as much as we are.

Why must you crush my dreams?  I don't care what you say.  In my mind I still see Howie running into the assembly area, and like those people who rush into seafood resturants to free the lobsters, he starts altering throttle bodies and exhausts to set these engines free.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2008, 12:12:44 PM »

Why must you crush my dreams?  I don't care what you say.  In my mind I still see Howie running into the assembly area, and like those people who rush into seafood resturants to free the lobsters, he starts altering throttle bodies and exhausts to set these engines free.

And Binx is wearing a tshirt that says "I don't know the crazy person" with arrows pointing every possible direction :drink: .
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2008, 12:13:28 PM »

Why must you crush my dreams?  I don't care what you say.  In my mind I still see Howie running into the assembly area, and like those people who rush into seafood resturants to free the lobsters, he starts altering throttle bodies and exhausts to set these engines free.

People actually rush in to "FREE" the lobsters? They can't be from Kentucky.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2008, 12:17:07 PM »

And Binx is wearing a tshirt that says "I don't know the crazy person" with arrows pointing every possible direction :drink: .

Considering this crowd, that shirt would be appropriate at any of our gatherings.   :huepfenjump3:

Ken - I think it must be a west coast thing.  The only free lobster I'm interested in is when someone else is picking up the check.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2008, 12:24:53 PM »

Even if she does, somehow, it'll be my fault ....directly...or indirectly. Even if it was Totally her fault, I wouldn't have the gonzos to call her on it.

NOW you're being a realist.  ;)
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2008, 12:28:33 PM »

Well, we're dealing with these POS engines. We had to endure your assualt on bad Paint Jobs. Deal with our misery like we dealt with yours! :P ::) ??? :o ;D ;D ;D



Don't forget the chrome
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2008, 12:32:20 PM »

"I've already seen that day in my house. It's not as bad as you'd think if you keep humble and just agree. JD has already caught on to "Yes Dear" and it insults her anymore. I started "hanging my head" a couple of years ago, and she's caught on to that too. Now-a-days I'm having to offer her in writing, "I was wrong". In 2009, I'm thinking I'll have to have it notorized. By 2010, I'm hoping she makes a mistake, and that'd buy me a couple of years."

Might make a nice tatoo.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2008, 02:45:29 PM »

Well, we're dealing with these POS engines. We had to endure your assualt on bad Paint Jobs. Deal with our misery like we dealt with yours! :P ::) ??? :o ;D ;D ;D

Hoist! 8)

Not me. My paint and the rest of my bike has been great. Oh wait all of mine are 2004 & 2005's.

Be Safe

THE DAWG
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2008, 03:07:36 PM »

Totally agree there. The guy who spent his last cent just to purchase the bike.......Maybe shoulda bought a Jap bike.

Nah Ken...what's that saying?  "I'd rather push my Harley....." ::)

     :devil:
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2008, 04:41:09 PM »

Man, this is turning into a great thread!!! :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3:

Not me. My paint and the rest of my bike has been great. Oh wait all of mine are 2004 & 2005's.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Not directed at you Mike, just a general statyement that there are many subjects here of little to no interest of some people. I'm just saying in general to all, deal with it here or don't read about it. But it's a real issue for those who do have to deal with this. Nothing personal man! :2vrolijk_21:

I asked Howie to do me a favor while there, please do not film that...

Are you kidding me or what? That would make a great commercial..... for Honda! ;D

Not until after we tour York next Friday.   I still think Don has set us up big time for this tour and there's not a chance in the MOCO letting us in.   Might have to use tape on Howie.   :)

I am sick that I will not be there.  Will someone please take a camera and video tape Howie?  I know he will not be able to resist showing the asemblers how they should be putting these engines togather.  I already feel sorry for the tour guide.  They have no idea the ambush that is waiting for them.   :huepfenlol2:

Why must you crush my dreams?  I don't care what you say.  In my mind I still see Howie running into the assembly area, and like those people who rush into seafood resturants to free the lobsters, he starts altering throttle bodies and exhausts to set these engines free.

What short memories we have. Buncha old CRS folks here I see. Might I remind ya'll that Don couldn't make it last year and I took care of this event at York. I interfaced very nicely with them too. I can bite my tongue when necessary. If you remember, I showed up on my FXWG last year because they couldn't get a ring gear and starter for my bike after the ring gear blew up. By the end of the tour, they couldn't work fast enough to pull one off the floor for me and get it to the dealer. It was there by the time I got back from York. Howie ain't as dumb as he looks! :o ??? ::) :P ;D ;)

And Binx is wearing a tshirt that says "I don't know the crazy person" with arrows pointing every possible direction :drink: .
She's had that shirt for years. As a matter of fact, I got it for her! :nixweiss: :nervous: :jalapeno: :jalapeno: :jalapeno:


With all that said, you guys will have to deal with reading about 110 issues until they're resolved, like the paint issues. I blazed the path I went down because I saw that HD movie before. Hated it the previous times. Was not interested in the sequel! Now dopey Howie's idea of FTF & FTW ain't so ridiculous anymore. We are all dealing with it the way we're most comfortable. There's no right or wrong way to deal with it. But just the fact that we have to, is insulting to me. The MoCo should have more respect for us than this. But it's strictly business to them, and it's all about the numbers, not the customer. The way of American Corporations today. And that's a God damned shame!!!

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2008, 05:35:43 PM »

Not me. My paint and the rest of my bike has been great. Oh wait all of mine are 2004 & 2005's.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

My 05 has been great too Mike.  Well... except for when I got it caught in my Zippers.  But that wasn't the bike's fault :huepfenlol2: .
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2008, 05:43:08 PM »

I've already seen that day in my house. It's not as bad as you'd think if you keep humble and just agree. JD has already caught on to "Yes Dear" and it insults her anymore. I started "hanging my head" a couple of years ago, and she's caught on to that too. Now-a-days I'm having to offer her in writing, "I was wrong". In 2009, I'm thinking I'll have to have it notorized. By 2010, I'm hoping she makes a mistake, and that'd buy me a couple of years.

Right on brother - right on. Down rite pitiful what's become of us.

                  (but damn we've got some fun toys)
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2008, 06:00:14 PM »

Maybe you could build your own CVO like at Fuddruckers?   Do you think the gift shop will be selling slightly used cylinders?
Or how about next year's Christmas (I can say Christmas here, right) shopping premium:

A black framed glass shadow box with the evolution of the non leaking * head gasket yours with any purchase of $250.  *Assuming they find one by next Christmas.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2008, 06:02:15 PM »

Maybe you could build your own CVO like at Fuddruckers?   Do you think the gift shop will be selling slightly used cylinders?
Or how about next year's Christmas (I can say Christmas here, right) shopping premium:

A black framed glass shadow box with the evolution of the non leaking * head gasket yours with any purchase of $250.  *Assuming they find one by next Christmas.

Phil's been going to Jerry's School of Sarcasm and Cynacism I see! ::) ;D :2vrolijk_21:

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2008, 06:08:23 PM »

Phil's been going to Jerry's School of Sarcasm and Cynacism I see! ::) ;D :2vrolijk_21:

Hoist! 8)

 I am only as good as the material HD gives me.  Actually sarcasm is something I majored in at The School of Hard Knocks. Sarcasm 101 and Advanced Sarcasm.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2008, 07:10:17 PM »

Just flipped to this section and noticed the current threads here.  With only a few exceptions it's still all (different) 110 issues.  More than a year in to production. 

Please don't take this wrongly. I feel for each and every one of you.  But I am so glad I don't have one of these engines in either of my bikes.

With modern standards it's almost unbelievable.  It's certainly inexcusable.  Sorry guys....

Oh, I see you are one of those who believes everything you read on the internet.  Any MOCO customer service rep or dealership Service/Sales/General Manager will confirm for you that the rantings of the internet looney's have greatly exaggerated the extent of the 110 issues.  And people like you only perpetuate the myths...  Shame on you...  :huepfenlol2:
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2008, 08:22:02 PM »

Oh, I see you are one of those who believes everything you read on the internet.  Any MOCO customer service rep or dealership Service/Sales/General Manager will confirm for you that the rantings of the internet looney's have greatly exaggerated the extent of the 110 issues.  And people like you only perpetuate the myths...  Shame on you...  :huepfenlol2:

Scott, I'm not sure how to put this diplomatically or at all skillfully.  Always try to be careful with the wordcraft though.  Especially when dealing with the efforts of diligent professionals and the standards and ethics they bring to bear on our behalf.  So as cogently and with as much linguistic precision as I can possibly exercise let me say this:

Harley's service reps that spew this BS ride to work on the frakking short bus and are even more frakking addled from spending their day sniffing fumes in start up booth.  The only thing dumber then what they try to pass off on us is that they really believe we buy this crap when they say it.  Pinheaded swizzle sticks better suited to crossing guard duty across the Korean DMZ for the actual effectiveness of their efforts toward any more than spewing the company line.  Their affection for themselves and for their corporate deity reaks of a small shriveled thing holding something close to its breast wisftully saying "my pretty" and thinking we must see the shine of it too.  If only they knew we often look forward to vomit illness than we look forward to hearing the made up, nonsensical, sometimes even mechanically impossible explanations they expect us to believe.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2008, 08:30:16 PM »

Scott, I'm not sure how to put this diplomatically or at all skillfully.  Always try to be careful with the wordcraft though.  Especially when dealing with the efforts of diligent professionals and the standards and ethics they bring to bear on our behalf.  So as cogently and with as much linguistic precision as I can possibly exercise let me say this:

Harley's service reps that spew this BS ride to work on the frakking short bus and are even more frakking addled from spending their day sniffing fumes in start up booth.  The only thing dumber then what they try to pass off on us is that they really believe we buy this crap when they say it.  Pinheaded swizzle sticks better suited to crossing guard duty across the Korean DMZ for the actual effectiveness of their efforts toward any more than spewing the company line.  Their affection for themselves and for their corporate deity reaks of a small shriveled thing holding something close to its breast wisftully saying "my pretty" and thinking we must see the shine of it too.  If only they knew we often look forward to vomit illness than we look forward to hearing the made up, nonsensical, sometimes even mechanically impossible explanations they expect us to believe.

I can say all of the above, with fewer words: "Harley Service Reps are educated beyond their inteliigence"
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2008, 08:31:36 PM »

I can say all of the above, with fewer words: "Harley Service Reps are educated beyond their inteliigence"

I was translating all that to mean "they suck"! :o ;D

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2008, 08:59:41 PM »

I took a tour of the Capitol Drive plant where they build a lot of the engines (not the 110") last month while in Milwaukee and they let us know that the plant where they do build them had stopped giving tours a while back and would not be giving tours in the immediate future. 

Do you suppose they have been getting blasted on quality or they are working on a liquid cooled motor???

Jim 
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2008, 09:00:13 PM »

I was translating all that to mean "they suck"! :o ;D

Hoist! 8)

Well yeah, but I was trying to have more fun....   :huepfenlol2:
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #45 on: April 17, 2008, 09:04:58 PM »

I can say all of the above, with fewer words: "Harley Service Reps are educated beyond their inteliigence"

I was translating all that to mean "they suck"! :o ;D

Hoist! 8)

Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb here and offer some food for thought...

I know many have a hate relationship w/service reps, but lets look at it another way. I would say it would be safe to say that most Service Reps at dealerships aren't on the high end of the salary pay scale (ie: Minimum to just above minimum wage). With that said and these hard economic times wouldn't it be safe to say that if corporate or the owner of their dealership has told them not to say anything otherwise risk loosing there jobs they wouldn't say anything. Put yourself in their shoes would you give information to someone if giving that information might cost you your job? :nixweiss:

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2008, 10:38:15 PM »

Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb here and offer some food for thought...

I know many have a hate relationship w/service reps, but lets look at it another way. I would say it would be safe to say that most Service Reps at dealerships aren't on the high end of the salary pay scale (ie: Minimum to just above minimum wage). With that said and these hard economic times wouldn't it be safe to say that if corporate or the owner of their dealership has told them not to say anything otherwise risk loosing there jobs they wouldn't say anything. Put yourself in their shoes would you give information to someone if giving that information might cost you your job? :nixweiss:

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Gary, the guys at the service counters aren't who I think of or hold at fault when discussing the issues with such bizarre information and such poor attitudes in dispensing coming from the MoCo.  Those kids often are kids and don't know squat more then what they've been told that morning.  I'm talking about the company service reps.  The travelers.  The actual honest to god professionals.  The ones who think we're mushrooms and knowingly think it really is ok to keep us in the dark and feed us doo-doo.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2008, 10:44:44 PM »

The ones you speak of may be better paid then the ones at the dealerships, but they too may have been told to keep quiet or loose their jobs. We all know that there is a nondisclosure contract that is signed stating that they will not give out information on upcoming models.

I'm not trying to defend the withholding of information just trying to understand it better why the information is being held. If it would cost me my job or perhaps put me in a situation that I might get sued for giving out information I might be reluctant to give out information also. :nixweiss:

I just think the heart of the problem lies within those that we can never directly contact.

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2008, 10:54:15 PM »

With already 4 pages into this thread I'm getting here late but to address Twolanes opening post. I feel for the 110 owners that are having the problems. It does give me flashbacks to the paint issue on the 2006 models (mine being one of them). After having gone through that pain, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Part of that was the cause for me selling my CVO and getting back to basics with a 2003 RK Classic with a TC88. It runs great with no issues and if I say so myself (and I do) it looks great too. I spent $14k on it and couldn't be happier. I wish all you 110 owners the same cause them sure are some purty bikes!  8)
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2008, 11:01:33 PM »

Don I have to agree with you. It has gotten so bad on this board it is now getting boring to say the least. The threads are all the same. 110 porblems.

Man my 103 looks better and better everyday.

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That's too funny, DAWG........'cause me and ole NiteAl rode a couple hundred miles on our '04 and '05 SEEGs today and agreed that we wouldn't trade 'even' on anything that was new in the Wilmington dealership while we were there (and it was loaded with all shapes and sizes of beautiful new CVO's)........those old SEEGs are sswwwweeeeeet!  :P har!  spyder
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2008, 11:07:04 PM »

That's too funny, DAWG........'cause me and ole NiteAl rode a couple hundred miles on our '04 and '05 SEEGs today and agreed that we wouldn't trade 'even' on anything that was new in the Wilmington dealership while we were there (and it was loaded with all shapes and sizes of beautiful new CVO's)........those old SEEGs are sswwwweeeeeet!  :P har!  spyder
I'll have to agree w/that also. Haven't seen anything yet that would make me give up my SEEG. :2vrolijk_21:

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2008, 01:26:50 AM »

The ones you speak of may be better paid then the ones at the dealerships, but they too may have been told to keep quiet or loose their jobs. We all know that there is a nondisclosure contract that is signed stating that they will not give out information on upcoming models.

I'm not trying to defend the withholding of information just trying to understand it better why the information is being held. If it would cost me my job or perhaps put me in a situation that I might get sued for giving out information I might be reluctant to give out information also. :nixweiss:

I just think the heart of the problem lies within those that we can never directly contact.

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Gary, those who don't speak are a bone of contention we've spoken of before here.  Harley makes it incredibly difficult to really access some person.  It's not their best thing. 

The reps that are dispatched, however, are a different beast entirely.  Some of the things they say regarding paint, engines, pitted chrome, the effect of changed parts on unassociated systems, etc etc etc is just beyond the pale.  I disagree with you on the motive force of having to live within the confines of nondisclosure. 

If someone simply told any one of us, "sorry, I can not answer your question."  Or, "sorry, this is an issue under review and I am not allowed to do more than X and Y."  Something at least direct.  I can live with someone having to follow orders and toe the line.  It's the direct misinformation or seemingly intentional incorrect information whose only purpose is delay, obfuscation or the attempt to move the burden of responsibility away from the company and on to the owner that is insulting.  That it's not actually embarassing to them only bespeaks the character of those issuing the guidance.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2008, 01:27:58 AM »

I'll have to agree w/that also. Haven't seen anything yet that would make me give up my SEEG. :2vrolijk_21:

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But there we agree completely.  SEEGs are sweet.  We gave birth to the Street Glides and the SEUCs grew from what we started.  Damn these bikes are nice.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2008, 01:39:04 AM »

Gary, those who don't speak are a bone of contention we've spoken of before here.  Harley makes it incredibly difficult to really access some person.  It's not their best thing. 

The reps that are dispatched, however, are a different beast entirely.  Some of the things they say regarding paint, engines, pitted chrome, the effect of changed parts on unassociated systems, etc etc etc is just beyond the pale.  I disagree with you on the motive force of having to live within the confines of nondisclosure. 

If someone simply told any one of us, "sorry, I can not answer your question."  Or, "sorry, this is an issue under review and I am not allowed to do more than X and Y."  Something at least direct.  I can live with someone having to follow orders and toe the line.  It's the direct misinformation or seemingly intentional incorrect information whose only purpose is delay, obfuscation or the attempt to move the burden of responsibility away from the company and on to the owner that is insulting.  That it's not actually embarassing to them only bespeaks the character of those issuing the guidance.
Well damn that's a first us disagreeing. :P :beerchug: :huepfenlol2:

Of the things you mentioned (again playing devils advocate and trying to understand the devil) any answer you are wishing to hear could be an admission of guilt. They might be instructed to do the song and dance around such questions and give such answers as they are giving. :nixweiss: Maybe its just me trying to look for the good in people, but I think the hourly employees that are just trying to make a living/feed their family aren't the ones that are ultimately responsible for information not flowing/answers not being given.

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2008, 01:41:07 AM »

But there we agree completely.  SEEGs are sweet.  We gave birth to the Street Glides and the SEUCs grew from what we started.  Damn these bikes are nice.

Damn us agreeing has to be worth :beerchug: :beerchug: topped of with  :drink: of Makers. :2vrolijk_21: :huepfenlol2:

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2008, 01:50:26 AM »

Well damn that's a first us disagreeing. :P :beerchug: :huepfenlol2:

Of the things you mentioned (again playing devils advocate and trying to understand the devil) any answer you are wishing to hear could be an admission of guilt. They might be instructed to do the song and dance around such questions and give such answers as they are giving. :nixweiss: Maybe its just me trying to look for the good in people, but I think the hourly employees that are just trying to make a living/feed their family aren't the ones that are ultimately responsible for information not flowing/answers not being given.

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Gary, I just have major issues with a corporate culture that enforces not just disingenuous answers but deception.  Deception that at times delays responses to us that might help solve problems.  At other times has as a purpose to avoid responsibility that it is obvious should be the company's.  And at other times could actually get us hurt.

I understand the desire to give some benefit of the doubt to the person relaying the message.  He is, after all, just the messenger.  It's the corporate culture that enforces the behavior.  The corporate culture that is your villain of choice rather then the guy working for it just bring home the paycheck...

Corporations aren't alive.  The culture and the choices are nothing more then the choices made by the people.  If the people aren't held responsible and taken to task the company can never change.  Because it is nothing more then its people.  And it is its people that give us the song and dance.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2008, 01:52:17 AM »


Damn us agreeing has to be worth :beerchug: :beerchug: topped of with  :drink: of Makers. :2vrolijk_21: :huepfenlol2:

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Man, now I'm bummed.  I didn't know we had to have a reason to share :drink: :drink::huepfenlol2:
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2008, 01:56:02 AM »


Man, now I'm bummed.  I didn't know we had to have a reason to share :drink: :drink::huepfenlol2:
Don't have to have a reason to initiate the festivities, but conversation and sharing views will entice us to have more. :2vrolijk_21:

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2008, 02:03:14 AM »

Don't have to have a reason to initiate the festivities, but conversation and sharing views will entice us to have more. :2vrolijk_21:

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And have you noticed the relationship there too?  The higher the beer quotient the more intelligent is the conversation and the better looking are all the particpants  :2vrolijk_21: .
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2008, 02:04:34 AM »

Don, don't hold it in man........let it out and tell us what you really think!!!  :bananarock: :huepfenjump3:  

:2vrolijk_21:

Wonder if anyone 'in the know' is going to the shareholders meeting 4/26? If it weren't so close to Sedona, I mean damn  aren't they supposed to coordinate these things with us first ?  :nixweiss:

 :drink:
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2008, 02:31:00 AM »

Don, don't hold it in man........let it out and tell us what you really think!!!  :bananarock: :huepfenjump3:  

:2vrolijk_21:

Wonder if anyone 'in the know' is going to the shareholders meeting 4/26? If it weren't so close to Sedona, I mean damn  aren't they supposed to coordinate these things with us first ?  :nixweiss:

 :drink:


It's all harmless Joe.  It's like the old Dean Martin Roasts.  You can't insult them when they don't really care.  So you might as well occasionally have a little fun at their expense along with realistically explaining why the frustrations are what they are.

I'm probably more frustrated with their approach today then most days though.  A good friend called this morning asking "does this sound right?"  He went on to explain a problem he'd had with his 07 touring bike. 

He lost a cylinder.  Dead.  Took the bike to the dealership for warranty service.  The closest he comes to doing his own service is putting air in the tires and fuel in the tank.  Beyond that the entire machine is not within his background nor experience.  He has to trust what people tell him because he just doesn't know on his own.

So it was missing.  They said he dropped a valve.  He'd been told it was due to his change of exhaust.  He didn't think it sounded right.  But he wasn't sure.  So he complained.  A few days passed and a company service rep (or at least someone who purported to be one) saw him at the dealership.  The rep told him this could "definitely potentially" be the cause but in any case he couldn't override the dealership's decision.

And for this we tattoo their name on our skin.....
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2008, 06:54:58 AM »

Here's the part that you must all agree with:

By denying there's a problem and not sending anything out to the dealers, an uninformed leaker owner is dropping off his 110 for the leak today.  The uninformed dealer is replacing just the gasket with the latest official version and not checking for liner movement.  The only recent way to get what maybe a good gasket is to open a customer service case and have the unofficial part sent.  This would not be known to the customer and the dealer.  Even if the dealer saw it before, would rather do the work twice to keep his guys busy.  The dealer can then sit back and blame the MOCO for the reoccurring leak.
my .02
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2008, 07:35:31 AM »

Everytime I have spoken to someone about the 110 issue they remind me of a political spin officer, however not a very good one. They may be just following orders but when does moral and ethics come into play. I understand they may be working under a nondiscloser claws but under ethical business practices you may not knowing give false information. That is what it seems they are doing. I have to agree with 2lane if they were just straight with you and said I cant answer that...hell use the military phrase "I can neither confirm nor deny that" or "that is above my paygrade" At least I would still respect him.

For the ethics stand point, because I wouldn't want to claim that anyone is unethical without proof. benefit of the doubt is given it would be that these people are so ignorant that they can not see a trend of these machines in the service departments, nor a trend for a demand of replacement parts.... therefore the term "knowing false information" does not apply to them.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2008, 07:51:31 AM »

Here's the part that you must all agree with:

By denying there's a problem and not sending anything out to the dealers, an uninformed leaker owner is dropping off his 110 for the leak today.  The uninformed dealer is replacing just the gasket with the latest official version and not checking for liner movement.  The only recent way to get what maybe a good gasket is to open a customer service case and have the unofficial part sent.   This would not be known to the customer and the dealer.  Even if the dealer saw it before, would rather do the work twice to keep his guys busy.  The dealer can then sit back and blame the MOCO for the reoccurring leak.
my .02
phil

I was at my dealer yesterday talking with the owner about the repair to be done to my leaker. The 07B gasket had "just arrived". According to parts person it is now available in the system - no longer requiring the top secret conversation with the MOCO. This owner also voiced his "suspicion" in regards to the engineers pushing questionable limits with the 110 platform. FWIW  :nixweiss:

Howie
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2008, 08:25:25 AM »

One thing I forgot to mention is the availability of parts.  When you do go in for the leak even with the gaskets pre ordered, if they find you need cylinders, you wait up to several weeks with no bike during riding season.  This just makes a bad situation much worse.  My dealer said if I pre order parts, i cannot return them.  So what do you call it when you have parts on the shelf?  "a Parts Department".
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2008, 08:27:55 AM »

One thing I forgot to mention is the availability of parts.  When you do go in for the leak even with the gaskets pre ordered, if they find you need cylinders, you wait up to several weeks with no bike during riding season.   This just makes a bad situation much worse.  My dealer said if I pre order parts, i cannot return them.  So what do you call it when you have parts on the shelf?  "a Parts Department".
Your right Phil, therein lies my fear. I will find out on the 28th

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2008, 08:30:29 AM »

...

Corporations aren't alive.  The culture and the choices are nothing more then the choices made by the people.  If the people aren't held responsible and taken to task the company can never change.  Because it is nothing more then its people.  And it is its people that give us the song and dance.
In a perfect world this would work, unfortunately I see it getting worse. With the downsizing, layoffs, what have you the top of the food chain in company's are going to be keeping the people that are more company loyal. This I think will mean those service reps that may at times given in to the customers legitimate complaints/request will be far and few between. More and more the reps will be giving the "company" answers, and denying more and more claims just to save their jobs. It's a dog eat dog world and only going to get worse. :nixweiss:

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2008, 09:12:44 AM »

dang.....there's a problem with the 110's, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

i know nuthing......nuthing!



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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2008, 10:02:01 AM »


So it was missing.  They said he dropped a valve.  He'd been told it was due to his change of exhaust.  He didn't think it sounded right.  But he wasn't sure.  So he complained.  A few days passed and a company service rep (or at least someone who purported to be one) saw him at the dealership.  The rep told him this could "definitely potentially" be the cause but in any case he couldn't override the dealership's decision.


H'mmmm this sounds familiar. Different outcome though. Is your friends bike finished? I didn't save the message, but I still have the completed warranty RO.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2008, 10:40:06 AM »

In a perfect world this would work, unfortunately I see it getting worse. With the downsizing, layoffs, what have you the top of the food chain in company's are going to be keeping the people that are more company loyal. This I think will mean those service reps that may at times given in to the customers legitimate complaints/request will be far and few between. More and more the reps will be giving the "company" answers, and denying more and more claims just to save their jobs. It's a dog eat dog world and only going to get worse. :nixweiss:

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I'll just add my .02 on Don and Gary's discussion here.

Let me start by saying that I don't believe for a second that most every H-D executive is not aware of the issues with the 110.  But I will also say that communication is a two way street.  I firmly believe that not only are we getting bad information from H-D employees (dealer or corporate), but they are also being given bad information and they are basically relating to us what they have been told is fact or told to say.  But also keep in mind bad information flows uphill as well.  I agree with Gary, we are in bad economic times and self-preservation is on everyone's mind.  Part of that "self-preservation" is never giving the "big guy" bad news.  I have the displeasure of working for a fairly large corporation.  I spend the majority of my day on the phone with some lackey from our corporate office who has been directed to call me by his/her boss.  They ask me the list of questions they have been ordered to get answered and I give them truthful repsones.  To which they ALWAYS reply, "I can't tell Mr. ________ (insert executives name here) that."  "Why not?" I'll say.  "Because thats not what he wants hear."  And so, said executive is not told the "truth" he is told what this person believes he wants to hear.  It happens everyday here, and I sure it happens everday in H-D's corporate environment as well.

I'm certainly not trying to make excuses for anyone here.  Harley has a bad product out there and they need to own up to that and get it fixed.  But it is also reasonable to believe that everytime we are being told by someone in the H-D family that 100 issues are "isolated," or the result of using non-oem parts, or you can't believe anything you read on the internet.  That same message is being sent up the ladder as well.

No one in corporate America wants to be Chicken Little.  No one wants to be the messenger of bad news.  Because you know what they do to the messager don't you... :behead:
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2008, 10:53:49 AM »

Everytime I have spoken to someone about the 110 issue they remind me of a political spin officer, however not a very good one.

Nuke, this is really what troubles me most about the process.  It's a different way of saying it.  But it is the question in a nutshell.  It addresses directly the discussion Gary and I have been having.

Though short sightedly a company, any company, may not see that it is simply good business to do right by its consumer base it actually is good business to do so.  Those with a returning consumer base have to advertise less.  Their cost to bring money back in is less if they have consumers that come to them without being reminded.

Harley, however, has treated failures, issues and problems very much politically.  As a kind of individually determined policy issue rather then a service issue.  With the goal of that policy all too obviously sometimes being "how little can we get away with and how much can we avoid this time."

In a very narrow term that keeps money in your pocket.  In the longer term it will kill.  Harley is unlike almost any other company, except perhaps the street corner narcotics dealer, in that it has an almost addicted consumer base.  And it knows that.  It knows that we'll just keep coming back.  And it takes advantage as a result.  It can move service responsibilities to policy questions of +/- in the short term and get away with it.

The longer term, however, will bite them.  Hard. They may be beginning to barely comprehend the lack of a perpetual yellow brick road now.  But the next buying generation will not be as easy as we've been.  Harley will have to actually compete in the market place.  Both at the sales floor and in the service arena.  It's been a long time since they've had to do that.  So far they're not learning to do it very well or very quickly.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2008, 10:59:26 AM by Twolanerider »
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2008, 11:04:30 AM »


but they are also being given bad information and they are basically relating to us what they have been told is fact or told to say.  But also keep in mind bad information flows uphill as well.  I agree with Gary, we are in bad economic times and self-preservation is on everyone's mind. 



Agreed Travis.  And, again, it's not the kid service writer at the dealership or the tech behind the wall I fault.  They're low on the food chain and only know what they're told.  The company reps are a different story though.  Or the surprisingly demeaning and laborious process too many have to go through themselves to get even a response out of the company that should be easy.

Troubling economic times, one would think, would make an otherwise financially healthy company seek to maintain its base rather than alienate them.  It's just too easy to see only the short term and not exercise either the intellectual effort or even baseline of courage necessary to raise your head over the screen and look ahead farther than your front wheel.  We all know what happens to riders that only look down at their front wheel though. They crash.
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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2008, 11:08:02 AM »

H'mmmm this sounds familiar. Different outcome though. Is your friends bike finished? I didn't save the message, but I still have the completed warranty RO.

Duane, I truly don't know.  I'm not even convinced he's got anything that significant going on.  He said "it didn't make much different noise than normal."

Granted, Drake wouldn't know road kill if he heard it.  But he's a bright guy.  And he's not deaf.  If a motor grenaded he'd have heard something noticably different.

So I don't know if he just completely misunderstood what was happening beneath him in the suddenness of the moment.  Or if a shop is trying to ratchet up a small job to a big one.  I only know that the excuse he was given for lack of warranty is bogus and the support he got from a company rep was nonexistent.
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Texas 103

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2008, 11:13:18 AM »

I took a tour of the Capitol Drive plant where they build a lot of the engines (not the 110") last month while in Milwaukee and they let us know that the plant where they do build them had stopped giving tours a while back and would not be giving tours in the immediate future. 

Do you suppose they have been getting blasted on quality or they are working on a liquid cooled motor???

Jim 

Liquid Cooled is right...... . The POS drove them to drink and now WTF do we do>>>
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DESERTBEAR54

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2008, 11:36:59 AM »

This issue reminds me so much of Learjets and how they dominated the aircraft corporate arena back in the 60's,70's with there awesome jets. They kept things the same never updated or believed they had to because they had a loyal customer base and so they never changed. then Cessna came out with a corporate jet that flew as fast as a Lear,as plush as a Lear and got much better gas milage at 1/2 the cost and there customer service was so much better!! The moral of the story is that Gates Learjet went out of business!!!

I think what everone is saying in a nutshell is that Harley needs to focus on Customer Service!! They have just saturated the market with motorcycles and made money up front but working with the customer and supporting there Engineering Blunders they are lacking!! I wonder why sales are down?? My 2 cents!!
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1000 Bears Can't Be Wrong Eat Your Honey Then Ride Safe and Smoke A Good Cigar!!

Ghost Rider

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2008, 11:39:16 AM »


Agreed Travis.  And, again, it's not the kid service writer at the dealership or the tech behind the wall I fault.  They're low on the food chain and only know what they're told.  The company reps are a different story though.  Or the surprisingly demeaning and laborious process too many have to go through themselves to get even a response out of the company that should be easy.

Troubling economic times, one would think, would make an otherwise financially healthy company seek to maintain its base rather than alienate them.  It's just too easy to see only the short term and not exercise either the intellectual effort or even baseline of courage necessary to raise your head over the screen and look ahead farther than your front wheel.  We all know what happens to riders that only look down at their front wheel though. They crash.

I am in total agreement with you.  I guess what I spent that entire diatribe trying to say is, "there is bad information going every direction."  I don't think anyone knows the entire depth of the problem.  The members of this board may represent a decent sampling of 110 owners, but I don't know that.  We ride our bikes.  If there are problems or issues we'll find it first.  We all know there are thousand of these 110's sitting in garages getting a grand total of 100 miles a year put on them.  Even if 30-50% of site members with 110's are having problems, that may represent only 2% of total production.  Something Harley would call "isolated."

I know what your saying its the arrogance you can't stand.  They have a very firm mindset that it doesn't matter what they stuff inside the dealership as far as bikes, clothes, or parts we'll just mindlessly keep buying.  And if there is a problem it is the consumers fault for having the gall to put a non-harley part on the bike.  They will repremand us for our mistake, charge us $120.00/hr labor to "maybe" fix the problem and we'll pay it because its a privilege to own a Harley Davidson.  And that is what really gets us pi$$ed off.  We keep feeding this beast.  We've drank the kool-aid.  "Yes Willie G, it is a privilege to own a Harley Davidson."  I guess when we change our mindset, they will change their's.

 :soapbox:

Wow, I'm in a pi$$y mood for a Friday.  Where is that beer thread?  :drink:
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SBB

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2008, 11:43:38 AM »



Wow, I'm in a pi$$y mood for a Friday.  Where is that beer thread?  :drink:


Geeee
Never seen Travis in a pissy mood.
Interesting to say the least.
Hang in there Buddy, it will get better.

SBB


 :2vrolijk_21:
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2012      SERG  "Nu Blue"
2018      Goldwing   
2003      HD Electra Glide Classic Silver and Black, of course!                
2 2012   Suzuki Burgmans
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Ghost Rider

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2008, 11:51:14 AM »


Geeee
Never seen Travis in a pissy mood.
Interesting to say the least.
Hang in there Buddy, it will get better.

SBB


 :2vrolijk_21:

Thanks Chip.  I will blame this on the fact that I haven't been able to ride for weeks.  The joy of riding usually off sets the crappiness of my job.  Without that realease I can become a bit of a "Richard head."   :cucumber:
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skreminegul07

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2008, 11:55:38 AM »

This issue reminds me so much of Learjets and how they dominated the aircraft corporate arena back in the 60's,70's with there awesome jets. They kept things the same never updated or believed they had to because they had a loyal customer base and so they never changed. then Cessna came out with a corporate jet that flew as fast as a Lear,as plush as a Lear and got much better gas milage at 1/2 the cost and there customer service was so much better!! The moral of the story is that Gates Learjet went out of business!!!

I think what everone is saying in a nutshell is that Harley needs to focus on Customer Service!! They have just saturated the market with motorcycles and made money up front but working with the customer and supporting there Engineering Blunders they are lacking!! I wonder why sales are down?? My 2 cents!!

Mty sentiments exactly.  If you read the annual reports, they tell the average age of the HD buyer.  It goes up each year and will soon be 50. At some point people cannot ride because of physical and mental limitations so this again is limited. That's why they started their training program with the Buell Blasts to get younger riders on a HD product.  They are also actively marketing to women also.
Several years ago, when there was a s"hortage", they produced around 200K bikes, now its over 300K.   Bikes for the most part have a very long life because they do not get ridden.  The simple economics is a flooded market.  Add poor quality, more alternatives like Victory, and a bad economy.  Voila!
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Ghost Rider

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Re: Wouldn't believe it if didn't see it myself
« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2008, 12:09:51 PM »

Mty sentiments exactly.  If you read the annual reports, they tell the average age of the HD buyer.  It goes up each year and will soon be 50. At some point people cannot ride because of physical and mental limitations so this again is limited. That's why they started their training program with the Buell Blasts to get younger riders on a HD product.  They are also actively marketing to women also.
Several years ago, when there was a s"hortage", they produced around 200K bikes, now its over 300K.   Bikes for the most part have a very long life because they do not get ridden.  The simple economics is a flooded market.  Add poor quality, more alternatives like Victory, and a bad economy.  Voila!

Ooops.  I stand corrected, my mental limitations have put me in this pi$$y mood.  If not for my mental limitations, I'd be that CEO in the ivory tower who has no idea there are any problems anywhere.

Speaking of "ivory towers" I was always told that that term came from Proctor & Gamble and Ivory soap.  I do know that there corporate headquarters building actually does have two towers in it.  Fact or urban legend?
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