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[Doc 1]

hey doc!! i bet you are wearing a floral print shirt and bermuda shorts??? eating a fruit breakfast?

thats right, these alabama rednecks have ESPn.

glad to see ya here.
dennis

oh you got PM

Yes Dennis you hit it.... but I'm doing that out by the pool.  Good to see you too!

[Talon]

Back to the O2 sensors, from what I can gather here, you must be tricking the narrow band sensors, changing the voltage values to do other than what they normally do, because they usually work in the 14.7:1 range. Does this work as well as changing to a wide band sensor? I have a friend with an 07 looking to step up his ECU, and do some mods, this might be what he's looking for if it works well.

[Doc 1]

Back to the O2 sensors, from what I can gather here, you must be tricking the narrow band sensors, changing the voltage values to do other than what they normally do, because they usually work in the 14.7:1 range. Does this work as well as changing to a wide band sensor? I have a friend with an 07 looking to step up his ECU, and do some mods, this might be what he's looking for if it works well.

Well, believe me when I say there is no other tuner that will out perform the New TTS V-Tuner as far as the depth it will reach into the ECM for a perfect tune.
There are three types of 02 sensors, #1 wide band, #2 narrow band,#3 and a narrow band switching device. Harley uses the Switching device sensor that sends out a voltage that is programed to a AFR in the ECM. The Narrow Band Switching Device 02 sensor works in a range +/-.5, ie it works between 15.0:1 to 14.0:1 AFR. The advantages to the Narrow Band 02 sensor is that it toggles very fast in it's range so it's able to stay on the AFR requested target AFR much better and longer than the Wide Band sensor can do. The Closed Loop Bias Voltage Table can be set to a higher voltage that actually makes the AFR richer in the closed loop area, for an example: a voltage of .450 would be 14.7 to 14.6:1....a voltage of .550 will have a AFR of 14.5:1, a voltage 0f .650 might be close to 14.4, a voltage of .798 wil get you about 14.2:1.
   The TTS Tuner is not a plug and play unit like the TMAX ECM is ,you still have to take data with the TTS unit and use that data to synchronize the VE tables. Once the VE tables are done and the requested AFR is set in the Fuel Table the tuning is complete unless you change the configuration of your build again. The TMAX is consistently searching every time you ride it, to me this is unnecessary but with a plug and play self learn system this is what happens.
The V-Tune program will be a lot easier for you guys to find the correct VE settings for your riding styles as you collect the data as you ride....once the VE table cells have learned (where you ride) you will down load them into the V-Tuner program where they will generate a Master Tune file for you to enter into the ECM. If this V-Tuner Program is used on the Dyno under a load control more VE cells will collect data for a better and more complete tune, so a dyno isn't eliminated with this New Tuner....it will cut the tuning time in half which is a good thing plus it will allow the ''not so good tuner " to do a good job....lol.
Hope that answered your question

[Doc 1]

http://www.mastertune.net/
The TTS new web sit on the Master Tune Harley Tuner

[Unbalanced]

Doc,

2 things:

1) Is there a release date yet for the new product that you can give us I know quite a few are chomping at the bit to order them from you.  Are you taking early orders or have a list for when they start to be shipped?

2) Please let Steve know there is a bad typo on the ordering page for "single bike with cables" it says

Sign Motorcycle with Communication Cables

[Doc 1]

Doc,

2 things:

1) Is there a release date yet for the new product that you can give us I know quite a few are chomping at the bit to order them from you.  Are you taking early orders or have a list for when they start to be shipped?

2) Please let Steve know there is a bad typo on the ordering page for "single bike with cables" it says

Yea I seen that type o too.
I understand they will be shipped out the 30th of July..(next Wendesday) I have and I am taking orders now so give me a call or email me with what you want now...and remember payment is with Check or Money Order....no Pay Pal or credit cards, sorry.

[Unbalanced]

Doc,
I am one of those guys that is going to have to wait in the wings until Steve can do the upgrades on existing dongols, I have 4 of them ready to be upgraded though  

[Steve Cole]

We have received a few phone calls about the cables on the market so I thought I would clear them up here.
The cables that came with a SERT tuner kit or the cables that were sold separately (32108-06) for the SERT work perfectly with our new product.

The new SEST cable kit(32184-08) can be used but you will need to get a serial port cable from Office depot, Staples or any other office supply store. The cable that goes from the interface to the bike is the same in both kits.

[sportygordy]

Well, believe me when I say there is no other tuner that will out perform the New TTS V-Tuner as far as the depth it will reach into the ECM for a perfect tune.
There are three types of 02 sensors, #1 wide band, #2 narrow band,#3 and a narrow band switching device. Harley uses the Switching device sensor that sends out a voltage that is programed to a AFR in the ECM. The Narrow Band Switching Device 02 sensor works in a range +/-.5, ie it works between 15.0:1 to 14.0:1 AFR. The advantages to the Narrow Band 02 sensor is that it toggles very fast in it's range so it's able to stay on the AFR requested target AFR much better and longer than the Wide Band sensor can do. The Closed Loop Bias Voltage Table can be set to a higher voltage that actually makes the AFR richer in the closed loop area, for an example: a voltage of .450 would be 14.7 to 14.6:1....a voltage of .550 will have a AFR of 14.5:1, a voltage 0f .650 might be close to 14.4, a voltage of .798 wil get you about 14.2:1.
   The TTS Tuner is not a plug and play unit like the TMAX ECM is ,you still have to take data with the TTS unit and use that data to synchronize the VE tables. Once the VE tables are done and the requested AFR is set in the Fuel Table the tuning is complete unless you change the configuration of your build again. The TMAX is consistently searching every time you ride it, to me this is unnecessary but with a plug and play self learn system this is what happens.
The V-Tune program will be a lot easier for you guys to find the correct VE settings for your riding styles as you collect the data as you ride....once the VE table cells have learned (where you ride) you will down load them into the V-Tuner program where they will generate a Master Tune file for you to enter into the ECM. If this V-Tuner Program is used on the Dyno under a load control more VE cells will collect data for a better and more complete tune, so a dyno isn't eliminated with this New Tuner....it will cut the tuning time in half which is a good thing plus it will allow the ''not so good tuner " to do a good job....lol.
Hope that answered your question

Hey Doc,

I unserstand the narrow band o2 sensor voltage range only provides an AFR of 14.0:1 - 15.0:1, then how would the narrow band sensor stay in a selected AFR of 13.5:1 since this would be out of the o2 sensor voltage range? I understand you can set the ECM to the desired AFR but cant see how the narrow band 02 sensor is going to provide accurate AFR data to the data recording side of the software, Data Tune.

UNLESS When you set your fuel tables to maintain a 13.5:1 AFR in given cells then the ECM is going to that based on the voltage it it see's at the 02 sensors when you set the fuel tables... Is this what i should be understadning.. ?

[Steve Cole]

When you use V-tune to auto tune the closed loop bikes you are tuning with all the AFR values set to 14.6 which is where the O2 sensors work best. If you change the O2 bias value then you can let the system tune a range from 14.2 - 14.8 range. So let's assume for a moment you have set the AFR to 14.6 and the O2 bias values to 450mv. That would make the bike run about 14.68 AFR. Vtune will now correct the VE values so they are correct for the engine to get to that AFR. Once the VE values are set they do not need to be changed again. So since you have got the ve values correct the calculation for AFR is now correct. Now you dial the AF table to the values you want and that is what you will get out the tale pipe. Now if you set the O2 bias values to something other than 450mv your AFR will have an offset from the 14.6 value. So lets say you set the O2 bias to 650 everywhere, the tail pipe AFR will be about 14.3. Since you have the AFR table set to 14.6 you have put an offset of .3 into the system, no big deal. So if you change the cells in the AFR table after Vtune is complete you need to remember to subtrace the offset you put into the system. 14.3 table value - .3 offset gives you a true tail pipe of 14.0  All you need to do is adjust the AFR table to what you want and your done. Same goes for the PE AFR as well.

[sportygordy]

When you use V-tune to auto tune the closed loop bikes you are tuning with all the AFR values set to 14.6 which is where the O2 sensors work best. If you change the O2 bias value then you can let the system tune a range from 14.2 - 14.8 range. So let's assume for a moment you have set the AFR to 14.6 and the O2 bias values to 450mv. That would make the bike run about 14.68 AFR. Vtune will now correct the VE values so they are correct for the engine to get to that AFR. Once the VE values are set they do not need to be changed again. So since you have got the ve values correct the calculation for AFR is now correct. Now you dial the AF table to the values you want and that is what you will get out the tale pipe. Now if you set the O2 bias values to something other than 450mv your AFR will have an offset from the 14.6 value. So lets say you set the O2 bias to 650 everywhere, the tail pipe AFR will be about 14.3. Since you have the AFR table set to 14.6 you have put an offset of .3 into the system, no big deal. So if you change the cells in the AFR table after Vtune is complete you need to remember to subtrace the offset you put into the system. 14.3 table value - .3 offset gives you a true tail pipe of 14.0  All you need to do is adjust the AFR table to what you want and your done. Same goes for the PE AFR as well.

your speaking a lot of rocket science here and i will need to do some reading to understand your theory of operation how and why this works. I'm still not comfortable if i can set my AFR's to 13.5 and have V-Tune maintain that AFR with the Narrow Band sensors. On my 2008 Ultra, I'm currently using the SERT with DTT Twin Scan and wide band sensors and extremely comfortable setting up the AF tables based on the Twin Scan data. I assume i can continue to use the wide bands and this process if i choose with TTS? Just wanting to know if i can do this so i have something i feel comfortable with until i fully understand your program. I sent my check to Doc and he should get this by Friday. In the meantime can you PM me your manual so i can get  a head start on studying your package and operation. I wish i was about 1400 miles closer to Doc. After speaking with him today I think i would be hard pressed to find a tuner with his talent in the Sacramento area. I've had better luck doing the tuning on my own then throwing my money away to the folks I've ran into so far. I look forward to you package and cant wait to play. 

[rednectum]

Steve, you said "Now if you set the O2 bias values to something other than 450mv".

question: how many Mv can we alter? uh, what range in mv is used to adjust 02 bias? am at a loss of words here, so can we adjust from 0 mv to 1 volt for example, or is the range much narrower---300mv-750mv for example.

if that made any sense at all, thanks , i can do the math. lol

[Talon]

Steve, you said "Now if you set the O2 bias values to something other than 450mv".

question: how many Mv can we alter? uh, what range in mv is used to adjust 02 bias? am at a loss of words here, so can we adjust from 0 mv to 1 volt for example, or is the range much narrower---300mv-750mv for example.

if that made any sense at all, thanks , i can do the math. lol

[Steve Cole]

To start with the O2 bias table or tables depending on which bike you have can be adjusted in our software to a larger range than you should use. That said a switching sensor will work from about 400 mv - 650mv range. This will get you a 14.8 - 14.2 AFR range. Let's forget the Air Fuel ratio value of 14.6 and just think of that value turns the Closed loop system on. So you set AFR to 14.6 (closed loop on) and then set O2 bias to 450 mv. This tells the system you want a Air fuel ratio of about 14.68. So now you adjust the VE values to get you there. Once completed the VE values are set. Now you change the O2 bias value to 650 mv with the Air Fuel Ratio table still at 14.6 (closed loop on) you will need to reset the VE values to move the mixture to the new setting and you will end up with about 14.3 being you new ratio. Maybe this explains it better.

The AFR table just turns the closed loop system on at 14.6, any other value turns it off. In the real world you would set the VE table and O2 bias table so you got 14.6 and leave it alone. Then when you adjusted the AFR table the system would give you what you asked for. With the O2 bias we can skew or shift things by setting the bias value to something other than 450 mv.

You do not have to use the new Vtune program if you do not want too.

[SBB]

Steve Cole

Where are you located?