Topic: worse to worst...help! (Read 3354 times)

yelladeuce · « **on:** June 22, 2005, 06:06:01 PM »

Help! My 2004 se deuce locked up. Thats right 3400 miles and the motor went south. 70 mph, high gear, down hill at night. Well after i slid 126 feet i got it stopped with little damage. My dealer went to work... The problem was a broken race on the main crank bearing. Dealer said he had never seen any thing like it. Said harley would replace entire motor. Great! Right? well check this out....a week and a half later they call and said they got the motor in but it was wrong. Said they got a 103 instead of a 95 with my vin number on it so they had to send it back to be crushed. Another week and new motor comes in and everything is right or so it seems. Four days later my bike is ready. I go to pick it up, it looks great, sounds great and seems to run ok. They put fifty miles on new motor making sure it was correct. Well i got on and started the 60 mile journey home keeping a reasonable speed and check on rpm to break in new motor as per dealer instructions. Then after i clocked the 150 mile mark i rode as usual. Right off the bat it seemed less powerful. Well the the big test. Called my buddy to bring out his bike to ride. He has a 2005 dyna and we have riden about 2500 miles togeather in the past. He is very familiar with my tailights as he has tested his bikeagainst mine many times. To start from 30 mph kickdown he pulled about 6 bike lengths on me. This can't be right so we went from a roll... by top of third gear he had 12-15 bike lengths on me. What the hell this a stock dyna against a 1550 se deuce. Dealer says needs to be broke in more and maybe it will be stronger, i say bs. Any ideas?

JCZ · « **Reply #1 on:** June 22, 2005, 08:07:04 PM »

Yella that's a sad state if your suspicions are correct. In the meantime while you're clocking the 1000 miles to get it dynoed, try to collect all the SED dyno sheets that you can.

You other SED owners may want to email him your dyno sheet (easier for him to print from) to support him with his claim.

To bad you couldn't have kept the 103" with your VIN number on it. [smiley=nixweiss.gif] You'd have been real happy with that in a light bike like the Deuce.

110tHunDer · « **Reply #2 on:** June 22, 2005, 11:48:35 PM »

Maybe you got a regular old 88"? There are no external markings (like the "Screamin' Eagle 103" script on the strokers) that identify the motors in the '03 SEDs as anything special to my recollection, right? Maybe someone put the wrong engine in the wrong slot in the high-rise and then they picked it out and sent it to you. Happend with the 103" you got, right?

yelladeuce · « **Reply #3 on:** June 23, 2005, 01:32:44 AM »

Yea I am thinkin it maybe an 88. Another thing I noticed and brought to dealers attention is the rev limit is now at 5800. On the original motor it was 6200. Dealer checked into it and called me back and said that my original was 5600. I am beginning to think I know more about my bike than the dealer.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #4 on:** June 23, 2005, 01:43:22 AM »

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I am beginning to think I know more about my bike than the dealer.

Unfortunately that is just about always a safe bet.

e4seter · « **Reply #5 on:** June 23, 2005, 02:08:35 PM »

I went through the same thing last fall. My 02 SE SERK blew out the rear inner cam bearing and trashed the motor. The numbers matching 95" motor they sent did not run right with my ECM. low on power. When the dealer pulled the cam cover they found Harley shipped a 95" stage I with stock cams instead of a Stage II with the SE 203 cam.

After the cam swap the motor was strong.

MAVERICK · « **Reply #6 on:** June 26, 2005, 11:37:50 AM »

MAN THAT JUST AINT RIGHT [smiley=confused5.gif] [smiley=shocked2.gif] [smiley=oops.gif]

Tonys · « **Reply #7 on:** June 26, 2005, 11:12:17 PM »

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MAN THAT JUST AINT RIGHT [smiley=confused5.gif] [smiley=shocked2.gif] [smiley=oops.gif]

I think Maverick is in a rut...wordwise...I have read several threads and the same exact message appears in all of them..r u trying to see if anybody catches you? [smiley=laugh.gif]

MAVERICK · « **Reply #8 on:** June 27, 2005, 08:26:01 AM »

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I think Maverick is in a rut...wordwise...I have read several threads and the same exact message appears in all of them..r u trying to see if anybody catches you? [smiley=laugh.gif]

YOU CAUGHT ME AND I PLEAD THE FIFTH. ALL I CAN SAY IS RIDE IT LIKE YOU STOLD IT. [smiley=oops.gif] [smiley=laugh.gif]

yelladeuce · « **Reply #9 on:** July 28, 2005, 10:41:38 PM »

update... well the dealer said there is nothing wrong with my bike. i put 300 more miles as suggested by the dealer. so i called moco and got the rudest, no let me refrase, i talked to the biggest bitch i have ever spoke to. she was beyond rude and she was decided of my outcome before i said hello. i have talked to customer service before and was very impressed but i guess this time i got the hotline straight to hell. she told me an area rep had riden my bike and there was nothing wrong. i told her that my friends electra glide would out run me. she then said i was racing the bike and was going to void my warranty. when i suggested that they look at my bike again she said they had years of experience and were sure my bike was fine. she could not explain why my 95cu screamin eagle could be passed by any 88 on the road. even baggers! she also could not explain why my rev limit had changed from 6200 to 5800.i asked for her supervisor, she told me there was no supervisor for me to talk to. all she could say was to pick up my bike there was nothing wrong with it. HER NAME IS CINDY JUST IN CASE YOU EVER CALL IN. she kept saying i was racing the bike and the service manager from the dealer told her i told him this. i asked her to stop being so rude to me and told her that i did not tell the service manager i was racing. she continued to repete over and over. i interupted and told her that if she continued to put words in my mouth i would consider legal council. at that point she said mr young, we will not warranty your bike, we will not send the rep out to look at it again and you can just talk to our legal dept. then she hung up on me! I never once spoke loudly or cussed or behaved anyway but proffessional. i am not believing that i spent 30 grand on a bike and they treat me like that. i am very dissapointed ...........

Twolanerider · « **Reply #10 on:** July 28, 2005, 10:47:28 PM »

That is, at it's not atypically arrogant, the Motor Company we all know exists and hold to our bosom. Unfortunately your immediate agent for any work done is the dealer that already started the work. An arbitrator (if he's any good) is going to want confirmation before any decision is rendered. So ask the dealer if he'll accept arbitration. If he does you'll likely get the motor looked at as a way to confirm or disprove the diagnosis. If the dealer won't accept arbitration than take his ass to civil court and he'll already be a leg down.

yelladeuce · « **Reply #11 on:** July 29, 2005, 01:27:50 AM »

two lane... explain this arbitration a little more. i am desperate for a solution. it seems hopeless!

Twolanerider · « **Reply #12 on:** July 29, 2005, 01:58:48 AM »

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two lane... explain this arbitration a little more. i am desperate for a solution. it seems hopeless!

Sure YD, arbitration is something that might be done short of a law suit. I'm just across the border in Missouri so some of Arkansas I'm at least a little familiar with. Arkansas is one of several states that follow the Uniform Arbitration Act.

Arbitration is just a process wherein both sides agree that a lawsuit would be too costly, too troublesome and possibly too damaging. Because of that both sides agree to put the problem before an arbitrator. There would be no judge, no court, no jury, and none of the normal arcane rules or testimony or evidence. The plaintiff and defendant usually aren't represented by attorneys. The agreed on arbitrator is usually a lawyer, but could be someone expert in the field in question.

So, basically, you'd have to tell the dealership that they're going to get sued. They're going to get sued, that is, unless they agree to putting the matter before an arbitrator. Arbitration can be either binding or non-binding. But to my mind it's always seeemed senseless to go through the motions if the decisions isn't agreed to. That's the biggest reason, however, that you want to make sure your ducks are in a row and you know for sure what the facts are before you start the process.

If the dealership realizes that not going to court and working an afternoon before an arbitrator is a huge money savings they'll go for it. If they think you're bluffing about filing suit they won't. If you offer arbitration, however, and the other side declines most states allow that fact to be evidence in a later suit and it's usually considered probitive and not favorable to the side that declined to particpate.

To find lawyers that work in your area as arbitrators you usually don't have to look any farther than the phone book. If not, however, just do a google search for Arkansas arbitration and you'll almost certainly get several pages of responses.

Good luck!

Fla_Eagle · « **Reply #13 on:** July 29, 2005, 05:58:28 PM »

YD
Take your duece to another dealer ,get the best deal you can and trade it on a new one!
I know this is kinda like giving in, but it may save you money in the long run and certainly will save you tons of aggravation dealing with the morons in the MOCO customer non service dept.
Best of luck

Johnny · « **Reply #14 on:** July 30, 2005, 01:40:45 AM »

YD - Did you have your bike dynoed with the original motor in it at anytime?? If you did, have the dealer or whomever dynoed it dyno the new motor and see if there is a difference. If there is, you would have a pretty good case with the dealer and HD even if you arbatrate.

Also, seems to me that the dealer should check the cams per previous message, could be good bet as well. Hope this helps keep us posted.

h2oski · « **Reply #15 on:** August 02, 2005, 02:48:26 PM »

If your dealer did not open the engine how do they know it is a 95" instead of a mislabeled 88". I have heard of a guy that got a 103 with a stock 88 flywheel in it and 103 pistons. Compression was down siginificantly so it was easy to find in that case. If they didn't open the cam cover and pull the heads there is now way to know if it is a 1550 with 203 cams in it.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #16 on:** August 02, 2005, 03:19:21 PM »

Quote

If your dealer did not open the engine how do they know it is a 95" instead of a mislabeled 88". I have heard of a guy that got a 103 with a stock 88 flywheel in it and 103 pistons. Compression was down siginificantly so it was easy to find in that case. If they didn't open the cam cover and pull the heads there is now way to know if it is a 1550 with 203 cams in it.

I've been told of a similar instance. Didn't see it myself. But the source was someone I consider imminently reliable on such things and the story was retold by the local shop. A guy named John Golden who travels the rally circuit as Rolling Thunder Dyno had a 103 in an 04 SEEG on his dyno shortly after the bikes came out. The bike was way underpowered. If memory serves John said it was reporting something like 58 hp.

He suggested the bike had to be taken in to the dealership for some sort of warranty handling to see what was wrong. After considerable "looking" the shop finally opened the engine and found the flywheel for an 88" along with a couple of other associated errors. John has told of this incident on a few occasions I know of and the shop that did the work has spoken of it as well. So it's a good bet it actually happened as told. So just about anything can happen. And they just can't tell what it is on the inside while only looking at the outside.

Have you had the new engine dyno'd just to have the document in hand to wave under someone's nose and say "hey, dipstick, it's only making 7 horsepower, my kid can pedal harder than that!"

BLM777 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 02, 2005, 06:23:52 PM »

Absolutely right...2Lane...I know of 2 similar problems with 103's. In particular 1 '04 and 1 '05. Both of the incidents were relayed to me by HD shop owners who I have known for many years. One was a mix up in flywheels and the other with flywheel and pistons. Maybe they should quit "handbuilding" the engines in Yorktown.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #18 on:** August 02, 2005, 07:39:37 PM »

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Maybe they should quit "handbuilding" the engines in Yorktown.

Actually I've always believed that's a larger issue than really gets much attnetion. And I'm not speaking to just the engines.

On "the" assembly line robotics and sundry other monitoring systems are in place to check and double check. But we know things still occasionally get through. On the CVO line it's two guys or gals sitting on opposite side of the bike on rolling stools chasing a bike on a wooden cart down a hallway. The same pair build the entire bike. There's not a lot of supervision over the process. It's got to breed more error. "Hand built" sounds cool and certainly has a wonderful cachet when it rolls past your dentures. But what it means in real life varies very much by the hands; and it does seem that many of our own experiences here very much sugguest that those hands can make several mistakes.

HUBBARD · « **Reply #19 on:** August 02, 2005, 08:10:10 PM »

Yeah, 'er 'uh, BLM777,
Man, I must be Lucky! Knock on wood, I have never experienced the multitude of problems the Members are having, which I have been made aware of on this Great Site, with any Harley I have ever owned. Every failure I have experienced, has been by my own hand, or right wrist, if you want to get technical! [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] I can't believe the MoCo's QC could be that weak, that many times, on the same failure. I would be inclined to suspect one absent of comittment and loyalty, amongst the Union ranks! As sophisticated as the MoCo's systems are, how could this blunder occur once, much less be repeated? This is not acceptable. I say the Traitor's throat be cut from ear to ear, and his tongue be torn out by its roots, and replaced by his amputated fingers, for this dastardly deed! [smiley=furious.gif] [smiley=mean.gif] Somethin' just ain't right! I feel for you guys! Later--HUBBARD

spydglide · « **Reply #20 on:** August 02, 2005, 08:54:46 PM »

Quote

Yeah, 'er 'uh, BLM777,
Man, I must be Lucky! Knock on wood, I have never experienced the multitude of problems the Members are having, which I have been made aware of on this Great Site, with any Harley I have ever owned. Every failure I have experienced, has been by my own hand, or right wrist, if you want to get technical! [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] I can't believe the MoCo's QC could be that weak, that many times, on the same failure. I would be inclined to suspect one absent of comittment and loyalty, amongst the Union ranks! As sophisticated as the MoCo's systems are, how could this blunder occur once, much less be repeated? This is not acceptable. I say the Traitor's throat be cut from ear to ear, and his tongue be torn out by its roots, and replaced by his amputated fingers, for this dastardly deed! [smiley=furious.gif] [smiley=mean.gif] Somethin' just ain't right! I feel for you guys! Later--HUBBARD

Me too, Hub! I'm getting downright nervous just reading about all these problems.....Man, I don't know whether to go start looking for gremlins on my SEEG or what. I've got a over-whelming sense of 'doom' hanging over me now. What advice would you 'Rocket-Riders' give a ole scooter tramp that's coming un-glued just reading all this stuff? And don't tell me to close one eye, twist the grip, and 'git 'er done! Har! spyder [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

yelladeuce · « **Reply #21 on:** August 03, 2005, 11:43:02 AM »

new update, well i picked the bike since they said nothing could be done. well what do you know on my first ride the rev limit went back to 6200. mind you now that it had been 5800 on this "new" motor and that the dealer said that 5800 was factory correct. There is obviously something wrong. Also now there is a pulse feeling around 40-45 when just cruising and once warm it is very hard to start. I pulled the plugs and used a pen light and the pistons are 1550 stamped right on top. I really do not know if my warranty is void because cs said "i was racing" because she hung up on me. if i knew for sure i would take it to a competent mechanic and have the cams checked. but if it is not void that action would give them all the more reason to void the warranty. Even thought i was not racing... what if i was? Isnt my bike a screaming eagle deuce. And isnt screaming eagle the racing division of harley davidson. most of the parts on my bike are in the screaming eagle racing catalog and some, like my 203 cam, say for racing application only and bear the checked flag logo. HD give me a break! They are just looking for excuses not to fix my bike. I sure wish some one at HD who mattered could look at this forum and see some of the problems we face. They could see we are not the average riders but avid fans of HD motorcycles and to be mistreated by moco spoils the dream. We pay 40% more for our bikes to get a hand built, limited production, best of everything motorcycle but then get average, or in my case less than average, dealer support and no cvo support. No web site, No phone number not sh&*^%. Arrg!!! [smiley=mean.gif]

grc · « **Reply #22 on:** August 03, 2005, 11:51:20 AM »

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I really do not know if my warranty is void because cs said "i was racing" because she hung up on me. if i knew for sure i would take it to a competent mechanic and have the cams checked. but if it is not void that action would give them all the more reason to void the warranty. Even thought i was not racing... what if i was? Isnt my bike a screaming eagle deuce. And isnt screaming eagle the racing division of harley davidson. most of the parts on my bike are in the screaming eagle racing catalog and some, like my 203 cam, say for racing application only and bear the checked flag logo. HD give me a break! They are just looking for excuses not to fix my bike. I sure wish some one at HD who mattered could look at this forum and see some of the problems we face. They could see we are not the average riders but avid fans of HD motorcycles and to be mistreated by moco spoils the dream. We pay 40% more for our bikes to get a hand built, limited production, best of everything motorcycle but then get average, or in my case less than average, dealer support and no cvo support. No web site, No phone number not sh&*^%. Arrg!!! [smiley=mean.gif]

They cannot arbitrarily void your warranty - that was the comment of an obviously incompetent yokel at H-D who must have been having a really bad day. You have legal rights under Federal law with regards to warranties, and they cannot "void" your warranty without ironclad proof that something you did created the problem. Unfortunately, it sounds like you may need to retain an attorney to get Harley and your dealer off their collective butts.

TB · « **Reply #23 on:** August 03, 2005, 02:56:35 PM »

Yella,

Are you still under the HD factory warranty or the extended warranty? If you are into the extended warranty period, I would avoid the hassle with HD and work the issue thru the extended warranty (insurance) company. Just a thought.

TB

h2oski · « **Reply #24 on:** August 03, 2005, 03:33:38 PM »

Quote

Actually I've always believed that's a larger issue than really gets much attnetion. And I'm not speaking to just the engines.

On "the" assembly line robotics and sundry other monitoring systems are in place to check and double check. But we know things still occasionally get through. On the CVO line it's two guys or gals sitting on opposite side of the bike on rolling stools chasing a bike on a wooden cart down a hallway. The same pair build the entire bike. There's not a lot of supervision over the process. It's got to breed more error. "Hand built" sounds cool and certainly has a wonderful cachet when it rolls past your dentures. But what it means in real life varies very much by the hands; and it does seem that many of our own experiences here very much sugguest that those hands can make several mistakes.

Actually all CVO engines are built on the same production line as stock engines. They are all (excpet V-Rod) built at the Pilgrim Rd location in Milwaukee Wisconsin.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #25 on:** August 03, 2005, 04:26:28 PM »

Quote

Actually all CVO engines are built on the same production line as stock engines. They are all (excpet V-Rod) built at the Pilgrim Rd location in Milwaukee Wisconsin.

Yes, sorry; didn't mean to imply that the engines were assembled at York with the bikes. York assembles the bikes as described. But not the engine. It and the tranny come to them as sub-assemblies.

grc · « **Reply #26 on:** August 04, 2005, 08:51:35 AM »

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Actually all CVO engines are built on the same production line as stock engines. They are all (excpet V-Rod) built at the Pilgrim Rd location in Milwaukee Wisconsin.

I have some literature at home that implies that the engines are also "hand built". I tend to believe that at least the unique parts are handled that way.

Author Topic: worse to worst...help! (Read 3354 times)