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[Birdman]

  I installed a PC-V on my 09 SERG.  When I had the shop tune it I had them extend the rev limiter up to 6200 from the factor 5200.  I notice once I go past 5000 rmps my tac does not.  It stops at 5000 rmps.  I talked with my shop and they did some testing on other motorcycles they have installled the PC-V on and they said it was the same with each motorcycle they extended the rev limiter on.  The shop told me they are going to give Dyno Jet a call and see if they are aware of this issue and if so see if there is a patch to fix it.  Has anyone else noticed the same issue?  If so have you gotten it corrected?  If you have gotten it correct how did you get it corrected?      

[HDDOCFL]

I have the PCV and only have been up to 5800 rpms and it reads that.  Doc

[Diamondback]

 

Mine went to 5600 with no issues.

[ragrep]

No issues with mine either-

[Birdman]

  I just got off the phone with my shop.  They talked with Dyno Jet and found out that before tuning the PC-V they need to do an update to stock ECM from Harley that will fix the problem.      It is a screamin eagle download that is an option. The option cost $150 at this shop and then they have to remap the PC-V with the new ECM settings and the Tac will work properly.   

[GtreetSlide]

That sounds like a pain. I didn't have any problems using TTS tuner on my 09, and my tach reads correctly... Would like to hear more about what this factory flash actually does..

jb

[Diamondback]

 

A firmware  upgrade on a $35000 bike costs $150.

Hear hear what does it do?


 

[Steve Cole]

If you put a SE download into the ECM it moves the Rev limiter up to ~6200 just from the download. Sounds like that is what they are after to keep the Tach working.

[HDDOCFL]

I beleive it is an 09A download that has been added to the newer bikes from the factory, why would they charge for that? The first 09 SERG I had recieved this download when they were looking for a problem with that bike, thias new one already has it in it, Build date 3/09.   Doc

[Fired00d]

  I just got off the phone with my shop.  They talked with Dyno Jet and found out that before tuning the PC-V they need to do an update to stock ECM from Harley that will fix the problem.      It is a screamin eagle download that is an option. The option cost $150 at this shop and then they have to remap the PC-V with the new ECM settings and the Tac will work properly.   

Just wondering if it is the same download that is being discussed in this thread - Charged for "Update Download"??. It appears that some dealers don't realize that there shouldn't be a charge for this update for the SE/CVO bikes that need it.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Birdman]

Now I am being told that there is not a download for my bike.  Once they enter my VIN in the computer for the download there is no download for it.  So now the dealership is waiting for a responce from Harley motor company technical support.  Once I find out what they are going to do I will update.

If you put a SE download into the ECM it moves the Rev limiter up to ~6200 just from the download. Sounds like that is what they are after to keep the Tach working.

Steve, I believe this is what the download will do and that is about it.

[RBFB]

It is normal thing with the rev x tend enabled with the PCV. It interrupts the stock tach signal, but lets the bike run to whatever they set the max at. I talked to Jamie at Fuel Moto about this exact thing. He informed me that is how it works. The  SE download raises the rev limiter to 6200 and the tach will work fine, but that doesn't have anything to do with the PCV.  The PCV has to fool the tach signal so the tach stops at 5000 or whatever. I have this in my 08 Roadking and also my friends 09 SERG. They are both the same. Nothing you can do about it with the PCV. Don't worry about it, just ride it and don't look at the tach, the rev limiter still works at whatever is is set at with the PCV.

[GtreetSlide]

That strikes me as kinda "Mickey Mouse" if you know what I mean... The object of watching the tach is so you shift before the rev limiter kicks in... constantly hitting the rev limiter can do serious damage to a motor... Just sayin...

jb

[RBFB]

Well I guess it is, so if you need a tach and a high rev limit, don't buy a PC-V go with another tuner. I can shift fine with mine, but I don't wring it out anyway. After a while you know what it sounds like when you are getting up there.

 I don't know how else they could extend the limit and have the tach drive signal work past the stock rev limit, because the power commanders are a "inbetween" the pcm and harness deal. They would need to have to block the stock tach signal from the pcm so it doesn't shut down and then supply their own so the tach works up to 6200 etc. The only way to is to have the original pcm flashed, but with the PCV it still would stop before I think.  I am running the Auto tune with my PC-V and couldn't be happier.

[Birdman]

   Well I got the final verdict from the dealership bottom line I am going to have to live with the Tac stopping at 5K or take out the PC-V and go with something else   .  I don't understand why Dyno Jet the maker of PC-V made it this way and why they don't build a patch to fix it.  My understanding is they have no plans to fix it.
   Like RBFB just posted you do get to know your bike sounds and if you are running hard you will be able to tell when you getting close to the rev limiter. 
   The reason I was pursuing this issue is I believe when I pay good money for something it should work properly.  In the case of  PC-v it does not.  My next step is to write Dyno jet a letter to let them know how I feel.  I just wanted to make other people aware of the issue if you are thinking about adding a PC-V to your scooter to improve it's performance and you extend your rev limiter beware your tac is going to stop at 5K.
   OK now I will get of my

Cheers all   

Thanks for listening

[GtreetSlide]

The PCs were always good units as long as the build wasn't too radical. My last PC was a USB III model, but I finally gave up and got the original SERT for my 95 motor. I just couldn't adjust the PC enough to compensate for the settings in the ECU being so far off for the build. I was running a stage I map (with 6200 rpm limit) and the PC on top of a 11:1 compression, high lift cams build.

I just assumed that the 110 CVO bikes would come with a 6200 rev limit, but maybe that's not cool with the EPA I guess. I would like to play with a new PCV just to see how far they have come, but I went with the TTS because it would download my original 103 stage II map and save it for later if needed. The TTS was pretty simple to use with good results and I like the fact it allows you to adjust most of the ECUs tables. My 09 is just a stage II 103 build however, so the PCV would have been fine for it I assume.

jb

[grc]

Birdman, there is still something about all of this that doesn't sound kosher.  If in fact the PC-V is keeping your tach from exceeding 5000 rpm, how is it that other folks with the PC-V are able to run theirs up to 5800 rpm (see some of the earlier posts in this thread)?  I notice that you have been dealing with the dealership and not directly with DynoJet.  Not that I would ever intimate that a dealership could be FOS or maybe even lie to cover up their incompetence, but I believe if it were me I would be talking directly to DynoJet.  Something about this story doesn't ring true.   

BTW, unless you change out the cams on that 110 you are wasting your time trying to run it past 5000 rpm anyway.  At that point all you are doing is making noise and wearing out parts, the power curve is dropping like the proverbial rock.  Short-shifting at 4500 rpm is the way to quicker acceleration with a stock 110, not 6200 rpm shifts. 

Jerry

[Smuuth]

Now I am being told that there is not a download for my bike.  Once they enter my VIN in the computer for the download there is no download for it.  So now the dealership is waiting for a responce from Harley motor company technical support.  Once I find out what they are going to do I will update.
Steve, I believe this is what the download will do and that is about it.

Ask the dealer to show you the printout from the Harley-Davidson Digital Technician II for your bike. 
It should show an ECM calibration ID of 31841-09A. 
If it does, your ECM has the latest factory download.  If it does not, there is an updated download.

[GtreetSlide]

I don't know about the 110, but a good dyno-tuned 103 with the stock 255 cams can pull over 90 hp up to about 6000 rpm. Yes the TQ drops off quickly, but the proof is in the pudding so to speak. My 103 with 255s still pulls good well above 4500. I don't feel a seat of the pants loss in acceleration until about 5500 rpms on mine. Most aftermarket TQ cams pull strong up thru 6000 as well. It's all in the parts combinations and most importantly the tune. My 02 95 motor is still pulling like a race horse at 7000rpm. I would think a well tuned 110 with 255s should pull about 110 TQ and 100HP with a good pull to 6000 as well.

Given the choice between TTS and PCV (with it's speedo issues and inability to alter the base ECU tables), I would have to go with TTS.

The best advice I got off this board so far was about the Fullsac cores. I went with the 2" and am more than happy with the performance and sound. Sounds like a Harley, but don't need ear plugs to keep from going deaf.

JMO,

jb

[Diamondback]

 

Here's my two cents worth.

I have in the numerous years of riding rarely ever go above 5000 rpm and when I do I am not looking at the tach to see where it is.  Having had a SERT, ThunderMax and now the PC V, I am most happy with the PC V.  The TTS is obviously a well conceived and functional solution.

It is interesting to me the HD set's the rev limiter at 5200 and why is this.  Probably because they don't want the engine above that limit.

I ride in many various conditions from the extreme South Texas heat (yesterday it hit 99 and 80% humidity, OUCH) to the very cold mountains of Colorado and the high heat of the Colorado mountains.  I like the WB 02 sensors not the NB and I think the closed loop system is better for my riding (probably most).

I have spent way too much money on Dyno machines and I piddle with my bikes configuration too much (pipes etc) to keep going back.

However, I do agree a well tuned open loop system will perform excellent. 

[GtreetSlide]

Yes, it all depends on riding style. I still love to take my 95 to the ragged edge at 7000 rpms quite often. It's the balanced softail motor with over 50K on it...

I usually don't take the bagger over 5000.

jb

[grc]

I don't know about the 110, but a good dyno-tuned 103 with the stock 255 cams can pull over 90 hp up to about 6000 rpm. Yes the TQ drops off quickly, but the proof is in the pudding so to speak. My 103 with 255s still pulls good well above 4500. I don't feel a seat of the pants loss in acceleration until about 5500 rpms on mine. .........................................................

JMO,

jb

Depends on the gear ratio.  Any bike can be run to the point of valve float in 1st without a "seat of the pants" loss in acceleration.  That's due to the torque multiplication of the gear ratio.  As you go to higher and higher gears, you will feel a definite drop off with the "seat of the pants" dyno, and when you get to 5th it's extremely unlikely that 255 will even come close to pulling your new rev limit.

The attachment is a cut and paste from the SE Pro catalog.  Let H-D speak for itself about the capabilities of the 255 cam, and then look at what it takes to actually do what you claim with a 103.  More like a stage III or stage IV.

Don't take my word for it, take that beast to the drag strip and make a few runs.  First, don't shift until 6200 in each gear.  Then adjust your shift points so that you keep the rpm's near the torque peak after each shift (it will vary by gear, as there is a bigger rpm drop between 1st and 2nd, a little less between 2nd and 3rd, etc.).  Let the time slips tell the story, not the "seat of the pants" dyno.

Jerry

[GtreetSlide]

Don't take my word for it, here is just one example:
http://harleytechtalk.net/htt/index.php?topic=9718.0

jimbob

[GtreetSlide]

Jerry, I appreciate your input, but the plain fact is that Harley does not tune bikes for performance, just to please the EPA. So throwing up an HD SE dyno chart is rather pointless in my opinion.    The dyno link I posted shows that potential available to anyone willing to do the work and tune for performance.
 
Jimbob

[timo482]

thats sort of harsh - and one sided at the least

i have not hit 4500 rpm on purpose in at least 15 years, well since the 80's...... the last time was when a old bag pulled out in front of me and after smoking the tires i went down one too many gears before i let the clutch back out.

im running a bagger & have been running a bagger with or without a sidecar since 82 - what i care about is the torque and hp between 2000 and 4500 - everything above that for me & many others is a total waste of time, money, hassle. in a word -  pointless. so for you to say harley doesn't do performance is just plain wrong - most aftermarket everything, pipes, mufflers, cams, you name it ruin the power where ive been riding for a long time... so while those who RACE need big cams and open exhaust - MOST folks will be disappointed when there power to pass the truck at 40 just flat goes away - gone - have to drop two gears to do it.. i ran loud pipes once for about a year in 1979 - now every mod i ever do i look at real dyno sheets for the highest smoothest peak between 2k and 4.5k. the charts for stage 3 and 4 are for the strip - not the street.

im not alone - anybody who really rides on the street & never races - the 103 stage II kit as is would be a dream power combo. the stock 110 has a really great power curve - its the reliability and heat i worry about. it really is pointless to have a really hot bike that is parked at a shop getting fixed, i want to ride the thing, not look at it. to that end im saving up cash and when the economy improves im going to do in order - baker reverse, timken, weld & true, 255, 103.

to

[Birdman]

It does not matter how I ride or how anyone else.  Whether I hit 5,000 RMP everytime I ride or I am taking it easy.  If I am getting on it I know when I need to shift just from the years of riding.  My point about the PC-V is that is degrades my scooter.  Yes it helps with the tuning but it in my opinion it still degrades my bike by disabling the Tac sensor or what ever it is doing to the Tac and who knows what else it may be doing ?? 
I just like everyone else paid a lot of money for my motorcycle.  Like someone else posted on this thread Harley does not tune our scooters for performance!  They tune it so they can pass the EPA standards.  If we chose to get the best performance from our scooters then we have to pay out more $$.  Well I decided I wanted to get more performace out of my SERG and bought the PC-V because I thought it was the best at the time.  I am not very happy that Dyno Jet is not standing behind it. 

Buyer beware if you buy the PC-V you will most likely have the same problem.

I do trust the guys working on my bike. It took a few trial and errors to find a dealership I trust.
Jerry,
  I am not sure why some people it works with.  They may have been able to get the SE download.  I have the latest download.   

[GtreetSlide]

Sorry if I offended anyone. Appeared to me that I was being singled out as being untruthful. I simply presented the facts and backed them up with proof. I didn't say the factory couldn't do performance, I just said any HD performance kits are not running at full potential because they are tuned to meet EPA. There is always a lot more to get out of an HD with some real tuning. Just do your homework before you call me out with BS about my statements being impossible.

And yes, I agree with the last post. There is no excuse for a product that claims to be a tuner, but can't work with you tach properly.

JMO

Thanks and sorry for ruffing any feathers,

Jimbob

[HOGMIKE]

Sorry if I offended anyone. Appeared to me that I was being singled out as being untruthful. I simply presented the facts and backed them up with proof. I didn't say the factory couldn't do performance, I just said any HD performance kits are not running at full potential because they are tuned to meet EPA. There is always a lot more to get out of an HD with some real tuning. Just do your homework before you call me out with BS about my statements being impossible.

And yes, I agree with the last post. There is no excuse for a product that claims to be a tuner, but can't work with you tach properly.

JMO

Thanks and sorry for ruffing any feathers,

Jimbob

That's whats nice about this site, you get many views on a subject. You have to draw your own conclusions with the information you gather (check out the threads on muffler/header issues, for example).
Personalities will always be different, especially in different parts of the country/world! Tolerance.
Not all statements here will be true, but, I really don't think any of us would give false information to other members. It would be statements that WE found to be true and work for our application.
Just because a combo of parts/tunes works for one of us, does not necessarily work for someone else. It would be just a "starting point" to get you on a fast track to your goal. Remember, not all our goals will be the same. For instance: sound levels for mufflers; HP and torque curves; shock, etc, etc.
Bottom line: research, homework, make your best decision, enjoy your results, you gave it the best shot you had!
I believe most of us on this forum are here to help and share ideas of our experiences with our bikes.
Hopefully to help the next guy from spending too much time and money with poor results.
I hope this helps a bit.
Mike

[Diamondback]

 

I agree.


As a very satisfied PC V with Autotune user, I sent a support Email to Dynojet expressing my concerns about the Tach issue.  I agree there must be a better explanation.  My bike runs better than my 07 with lots of dyno's and lots of "wasted" money until the end. 

Although, I don't use the extended Rev feature I agree there needs to be a better explanation.

 

[GtreetSlide]

That's whats nice about this site, you get many views on a subject. You have to draw your own conclusions with the information you gather (check out the threads on muffler/header issues, for example).
Personalities will always be different, especially in different parts of the country/world! Tolerance.
Not all statements here will be true, but, I really don't think any of us would give false information to other members. It would be statements that WE found to be true and work for our application.
Just because a combo of parts/tunes works for one of us, does not necessarily work for someone else. It would be just a "starting point" to get you on a fast track to your goal. Remember, not all our goals will be the same. For instance: sound levels for mufflers; HP and torque curves; shock, etc, etc.
Bottom line: research, homework, make your best decision, enjoy your results, you gave it the best shot you had!
I believe most of us on this forum are here to help and share ideas of our experiences with our bikes.
Hopefully to help the next guy from spending too much time and money with poor results.
I hope this helps a bit.
Mike

Thanks Mike. Wasn't trying to start a head-butting contest. Sometimes I am a little too direct with my opinion. I spent many of my younger years building drag cars and restoring American Supercars. Been riding cycles for way over 40 years now and I only talk about what I know from expierence. My Deuce turns about 115 HP and TQ, which a lot of people seem to think that is impossible from a 95 too.

Not having any hands on with the 110, I have paid a lot of attention to the problems/issues with the newer CVOs. I can't make any decisions about the cylinder design flaws as proposed, but I do know that any HD comes home from the dealer with one major issue. It's Heat! Unfortunately, that is something that results from EPA regulations resulting in motors designed to remove any undesireable wastes from the exhausts. I just think the rest of the world should make a little more effort to reduce polution before we mandate ourselfs into bankruptcy. Anyway, back on subject; the cat converter is simply a restriction in the pipe that reduces engine effeciency by chemically burning out the polluntants that make it past the overly lean combustioin cycle. Removing cats and putting good baffles in the exhaust (or exhaust sytems designed for efficiency) allow much more out of any motor than it's stock brother. Enough said...

Having run open pipes for years until I started to expierence hearing loss, I was really happy with the results from the fullsac cores I learned about here. great exhaust performance with pleasant, yet non-deafening sound levels.

A good dyno tuner is an artist, however they are hard to find and expoensive considering a new dyno tune required for every change. I have used many SERTs now, along with TTS mastertune with great success. The TTS has developed a wonderful system for us wanting a good tune without dyno expenses. I have heard a lot of good about the PCV as well, but if they are going to compete, they need to work out those occasional bugs (example: tach). I run the TTS updater program weekly which frequently result in a download to make another improvement. Although I've used several versions of PC in the past, they need to step up to the plate on this one and show some customer loyality.

This is a great forumn and I have learned a bunch from those on here willing to share knowledge and expierence. You can get more skill from these forums in a week than by going to mechanics school for a year. The guys on here are doing a great job sharing, so don't take me too seriously. Even when I come across pretty rough, just remember I have a smile on my face and just want to share and learn as well. Riding styles are the riders freedom. I know a lot of people like to keep it 5 under the speed limit and shift at lower rpms. that just doen't work for me. I push out my 103 Street Glide to 5000 and even 5500-6000 rpms frequently. trust me on this one. No one will pass me by shifting any earlier. there are only two reasons in my opinion to shift at 4500; one: it's not tuned to optimum.. or two: you just are not in a hurry or want that motor to last forever...

Jimbob

[GtreetSlide]

Oh, forgot to mention: I'm currently running the Headquarters ProTuner on my deuce. It doesn't require any tuning efforts; just plug and play. It takes about 200 miles to dial itself in to a group of preset performance tables. Really a nice unit for a radical motor. I would love to see how one would work with the new CVO 110s. it makes my Deuce run cooler without sacrificing gas milage; and even with a 200 rear tire, it can still get scary on shifts occasionally.

jimbob

[HOGMIKE]

Thanks Mike. Wasn't trying to start a head-butting contest. Sometimes I am a little too direct with my opinion. I spent many of my younger years building drag cars and restoring American Supercars. Been riding cycles for way over 40 years now and I only talk about what I know from expierence. My Deuce turns about 115 HP and TQ, which a lot of people seem to think that is impossible from a 95 too.

Not having any hands on with the 110, I have paid a lot of attention to the problems/issues with the newer CVOs. I can't make any decisions about the cylinder design flaws as proposed, but I do know that any HD comes home from the dealer with one major issue. It's Heat! Unfortunately, that is something that results from EPA regulations resulting in motors designed to remove any undesireable wastes from the exhausts. I just think the rest of the world should make a little more effort to reduce polution before we mandate ourselfs into bankruptcy. Anyway, back on subject; the cat converter is simply a restriction in the pipe that reduces engine effeciency by chemically burning out the polluntants that make it past the overly lean combustioin cycle. Removing cats and putting good baffles in the exhaust (or exhaust sytems designed for efficiency) allow much more out of any motor than it's stock brother. Enough said...

Having run open pipes for years until I started to expierence hearing loss, I was really happy with the results from the fullsac cores I learned about here. great exhaust performance with pleasant, yet non-deafening sound levels.

A good dyno tuner is an artist, however they are hard to find and expoensive considering a new dyno tune required for every change. I have used many SERTs now, along with TTS mastertune with great success. The TTS has developed a wonderful system for us wanting a good tune without dyno expenses. I have heard a lot of good about the PCV as well, but if they are going to compete, they need to work out those occasional bugs (example: tach). I run the TTS updater program weekly which frequently result in a download to make another improvement. Although I've used several versions of PC in the past, they need to step up to the plate on this one and show some customer loyality.

This is a great forumn and I have learned a bunch from those on here willing to share knowledge and expierence. You can get more skill from these forums in a week than by going to mechanics school for a year. The guys on here are doing a great job sharing, so don't take me too seriously. Even when I come across pretty rough, just remember I have a smile on my face and just want to share and learn as well. Riding styles are the riders freedom. I know a lot of people like to keep it 5 under the speed limit and shift at lower rpms. that just doen't work for me. I push out my 103 Street Glide to 5000 and even 5500-6000 rpms frequently. trust me on this one. No one will pass me by shifting any earlier. there are only two reasons in my opinion to shift at 4500; one: it's not tuned to optimum.. or two: you just are not in a hurry or want that motor to last forever...

Jimbob

I have followed much the same course as you. My complaint on my '09 Ultra was HEAT!
I have taken steps to reduce the heat: removal of the cat in the head pipe, less restrictive mufflers (Fullsac's)
TTS tune. It worked.
As you may know, the cat works by getting super hot, and burning off the "pollutants" of combustion. (simple explanation) along with the lean tune. The cat in the '09 header is actually quite "free flowing" compared to other designs. I make this statement from feedback from dyno runs before and after that another member here has made.
So, the cat does not restrict as much as some would believe, but, it DOES generate much heat! That being said, my statement applies to the 96" motors, bigger "performance" combos of any kind, and it's probably best to lose the cat.
I, too, have been riding Harleys and Indians for many years, and am always looking for a little more power, but, not at the expense of reliability. I ride year 'round, and need my bikes to be reliable. My "fast" bike has an S&S 113, and I love it! It is EXACTLY what I was looking for in that bike. Yes, I know, there is more power out there, but, this suits my needs! Hell, my '65 is 93" low compression, and will run with the new bikes (great head work).
It's great to share ideas here, what works for one application MAY not be your cup-o-tea! But, at least you have something to think about, right?
Yep, research, homework, sound decisions........great info on this forum!
Mike

[GtreetSlide]

Mike,
Just out of curiousity, I assume you used a TTS base map, just curious how you set your Closed Loop Bias table?  I tuned mine set at 684 (14.63) but am moving the voltage to 781 (14.43) for closed loop to see if I can get the heat down even more.

Thanks, jimBob

[HOGMIKE]

Mike,
Just out of curiousity, I assume you used a TTS base map, just curious how you set your Closed Loop Bias table?  I tuned mine set at 684 (14.63) but am moving the voltage to 781 (14.43) for closed loop to see if I can get the heat down even more.

Thanks, jimBob

I have a custom map, using V-Tune, but, it's pretty close to a stock (a/c and mufflers) map.
My bias is at 762. If you check the help files there are hints where to start. I was cautioned not to set the mixture too rich, degrades the O2 sensors more quickly. I am satisfied with my tune, but, I may still play with it a bit when I get back home. Heat issues have gone away. I monitor my oil temps to see where I'm at as far as heat. Bike drives and performs fine. My bike is not your "typical" setup, so, check what kind of riding YOU do before using anyone else's map. V-Tune works pretty good, next best thing to a dyno, but, it takes some time and patience. I'm not real comfortable with computer work, but, there are people that will really help you out here. Again, research and homework will help!
Mike

[Birdman]

I don't think you can offend anyone on this site.  Surely not me.  I f I sounded offend I was not.   

Oh, forgot to mention: I'm currently running the Headquarters ProTuner on my deuce. It doesn't require any tuning efforts; just plug and play. It takes about 200 miles to dial itself in to a group of preset performance tables. Really a nice unit for a radical motor. I would love to see how one would work with the new CVO 110s. it makes my Deuce run cooler without sacrificing gas milage; and even with a 200 rear tire, it can still get scary on shifts occasionally.
jimbob

Jimbob, I am going to check into the headquarters ProTurner for my SERG.   

I also am going to check into a terminal Velocity tuner.  I have been told that it is a very good tuner also.

Diamondback,  Thanks for sending an email to Dynojet.  I'm doing the same this morning.  I would put up some pics if I could get my scooter back from the shop. 

I have another friend that installed PC-V on his SEUC had the rev limiter extended to 6200 RPMS he has the same issue that I do.  Although he does not take his to the limit much he did test it and found the same results I did.   I believe he is sending Dynojet and email also.

I ask that if you are using the PC-V and notice the same problem with your scooter please let Dynojet know. 

Thanks, Mike

[Smuuth]

Looking at the websites for both the Headquarters protuner and the Terminal Velocity tuner, neither one appears to be available for the 2009 bikes.

 

[Birdman]

Smuuth,
  I haven't had a chance to look yet.  Thanks for that update.  That really blows.

I just got an email back from Dynojet.  They are saying Because, of the fly by wire with our bike the only way they were able to make the rev Xtend was to do something that messes with the tac.  They are telling me the samething they told the dealership is that I need to do a stage one download to fix the problem.  I am in the process of sending them another email telling them this is unacceptable and I will be looking for another turner they is designed to work with my Bike.

[GtreetSlide]

http://www.head-quarters.com/injection.html

I'm not sure, but I think the 08 model is the same, you could ask them. You need a good working base map which they will provide for SERT or TTS, but I would love to see how one would work with the 110 motor (especially the heat issues). The 11:1 compression of my 95 meant dealing with spark timing issues while encountering altitude changes (along with bad gas). Now my 95 takes a while to warm up and never gets real hot, so I know the protuner is adjusting on the fly like they claim. It has a jumper wire that disables it for when you want to run data runs. You can reset the "learned" tables if you make changes and want it to start fresh. Although the protuner (or any other self-tuner I know of) won't alter your timing, it definitely will keep your AFR in line. Good product for a radical motor build and definitely keeps my 95 cool.

I've never tried the Terminal Velocity, product so can't give any feedback there.

I started out with really lean CLB tables, but the TTS has worked great on my 09 street glide (103bb). I'm trying a long trip next week to see how it works for changing travel conditions. Although it's running a lot cooler, I'm retuning it today with higher mv CLBs to see if I can get it even cooler.

jimbob

[Diamondback]

 

To all:

I checked with my dealer and the issue is the stock ECM without a download does not allow the HD tach to go above 5000.  The Mastertune TTS (and obviously the SSERT from HD) replaces the ECM and thus they can send the tach to any limit they want.

Since the PC V does not replace the HD ECM, Dynojet cannot override the stock HD which still controls the tach and it stops at 5000.  However, you can get a download from HD that will allow the tach to go to 6200.  And yes, it costs about $200.00.

I got the same response from Fuel Moto.  Seems without the download from HD  the PC V will not go above 5000 on the tach but the bike with ReV Extend will go to 6200.

Dynojet debated as to not have the feature but elected to include it.

That's the situation.  I am happy with the PC V and may in fact turn off the Rev Extend.  Makes me wonder why HD sets up the bike at 5000 anyway and then if you buy the SSERT they bump it up?

Any ideas?

Fuel Moto says either the TTS or the PC V are fine.

 

[HOGMIKE]

To all:

I checked with my dealer and the issue is the stock ECM without a download does not allow the HD tach to go above 5000.  The Mastertune TTS (and obviously the SSERT from HD) replaces the ECM and thus they can send the tach to any limit they want.

Since the PC V does not replace the HD ECM, Dynojet cannot override the stock HD which still controls the tach and it stops at 5000.  However, you can get a download from HD that will allow the tach to go to 6200.  And yes, it costs about $200.00.

I got the same response from Fuel Moto.  Seems without the download from HD  the PC V will not go above 5000 on the tach but the bike with ReV Extend will go to 6200.

Dynojet debated as to not have the feature but elected to include it.

That's the situation.  I am happy with the PC V and may in fact turn off the Rev Extend.  Makes me wonder why HD sets up the bike at 5000 anyway and then if you buy the SSERT they bump it up?

Any ideas?

Fuel Moto says either the TTS or the PC V are fine.

 

You might want to check more into Mastertune TTS, as far as price, flexibility, value, etc, etc.
I'm sure other devices will work depending on what your needs are, but, I like the idea of not adding any "piggy-back" devices on to the bike's OEM ECM to send "adjusted" data to the ECM. If you are looking at an '08 or '09 touring bike, I think you will have a hard time finding anything with the flexibility of the TTS ! Whatever you decide to do to your bike in the future, you will only have to buy ONE tuning device, and then, elect to tune it yourself, or let a good dyno guy do it for you!
You can contact a couple members on here with much more knowledge than I for specific information, I'm sure.
Best place to start would probably be Steve at Fullsac.com. Good guy, easy to talk to.
I hope this helps.
Mike

[Diamondback]

 

When I had my Thundermax, they actually recommend keeping the HD ECM in the saddle bags so if something goes wrong you can replace the Thundermax with the HD ECM and get home.

Same thing with the PC V.  Take it out of the loop and the HD ECM will get you home.  Albeit very rich.  But it will get you home.  The HD stock assumes with no feed back from the NB O2 sensors there deed and opens the AFR to 12.2 (or something like that).

That said I like the WB O2 sensors.  Why have an O2 sensor if you are going to bypass it and run the bike in an open loop mode(or semi closed loop).  I understand that O2 sensors cause more complexity but hey we all use to ride bikes with chains, chokes and drum brakes (and some of us like me a kick start).  Now we have ABS disk brakes, EFI, electric start, cruise control and ECM and an Aramid belt drive.  At least HD hasn't gone to a shaft drive.

I know that HD goes with NB O2 sensors to beat the EPA at constant throttle.  Just seems to make sense to go with WB O 2 sensors that adjust for a wider AFR rating at normal throttle and adjust for temp, altitude, humidity and non-premium gas.

That said the TTS is a very good solution.


 

I am very happy with the PC V.  It has good power and throttle response and best yet it gets better gas mileage than the stock 110 two up which is a plus.  And it doesn't run hot.



 

[Smuuth]

so let me understand this:  IF you get the stage 1 download for the stock ECM (thus raising the rev limit to 6200) and THEN put the PC V with autotune on there, the tach will be accurate above 5000 RPM? 

Is that right, or am I missing something?

 

[Diamondback]

 

That is exactly what Dynojet said would work  Install the Stage 1 download and it will reset the Tach to 6200 and the PC V will then go along.

Now, I am not going to do that but here is the full answer from Dynojet::

Due to this bike having fly-by-wire, the tachometer only showing 5000rpm is a byproduct of enabling the rev Xtend function of the Power Commander.  This is simply how we had to do it to include this feature.  When we developed the Power Commander for the 08 model we felt having rev Xtend was an important feature to include in the unit.  When we realized that the tachometer would only show 5000rpm we almost decided to not include this feature at all.  But we thought it made more sense to include the feature so the end user would not have to waste $150-200 at the dealer to get an ECM upgrade that did nothing but increase the RPM.

 

With the Rev Xtend enabled your bike will truly go to 6200rpm but the tachometer will only show 5000.  If you disable the Rev Xtend then the bike and the tachometer will go to 5600rpm.[/font]


And unless my dealer is not telling me something right, you can get a "download for the bike" that increases the rev limiter.

 

[GtreetSlide]

TTS doesn't replace the ECU, it programs it like a SERT only better...

jb

[Diamondback]

 

Thanks.

So it works better than the HD version but still in NB O2.

 

[GtreetSlide]

After using Twinscan, Wego, PC, and SERT the TTS seems so simple I almost feel cheated out of all those long hours of tuning, LOL

jb

[Birdman]

Diamondback,
   I received that exact same response from Dynojet.
   I think I am going to give Steve at fullsac a call and talk to him about the TTS tuner.

Smuuth,
  If you can get the stage one download it Xtends the rev limiter to 6200.  The tac will work properly with PC-V whether you have the auto tune or not.  The dealership I am working with says there is no stage one download for the SERG.

JB that funny.  LMAO   

[Diamondback]

 

My dealership said there is a quote "stage one" download.  Go figure.

I'm going to ride tomorrow to see if mine goes above 5000.


 

[HDDOCFL]

After reading this tread on the PCV not going to 6200 limit, and mine with this set up does, I went to my dealers to find out why why mine did, Guess what? My stock ecm is booted to 6200, seems they did this on the set up as I liked it on my first 09 SERG. They just added to this new bike for me, free.   Doc

[HOGMIKE]

After reading this tread on the PCV not going to 6200 limit, and mine with this set up does, I went to my dealers to find out why why mine did, Guess what? My stock ecm is booted to 6200, seems they did this on the set up as I liked it on my first 09 SERG. They just added to this new bike for me, free.   Doc

Hmmmmmm.........a dealer trying to help a customer after the sale? Seems suspicious to me!
JUST KIDDING! Sounds like you have a "keeper" of a dealership there! Lucky you!

[Diamondback]

 


This is great news since you are the first that confirms the HD download exists (and confirmed).  Tommorrow I'll find out if mine has this download.  Seems on any SE the download should be free.

Makes me feel better about the PC V and their answer about the tach.

I have had nothing but a great experience with Fuel Moto and the PC V (and autotune).  With my 07 it took a long time to get it "right".  With my 09 it worked right out of the box.  It's cooler, has more power and get's better gas mileage than when it was stock.

 

[brassspike]

Birdman, Since I last saw you I have done the TTS/mastertune to mine. Works good and Doc was very helpfull. If you want to stop by and check it out give me a call or PM.

[Birdman]

After reading some of the resent post I asked my dealer check again with Harley Motor Company to see about the stage one for my bike. They are being told that there is no way they will be able to make the Tac work properly when you have the rev xtender enabled with the PC-V  .  The MOCO insist there is no stage one download for the 09 SERG.  They come set up for the heavy breather and the VIN has restrictions when it comes to what can be downloaded to it.

Diamondback,
   Did you have any luck with your visit to the dealership?

Brassspike,
   I will be back in town this weekend. I will be riding through your area on Saturday I will give you a call.

[Godeater]

Just my 2 cents but as the guy running the dyno, the version of Tuning Link that we have from Dynojet is a beta ver that doesn't have all the bells and whistles working on it yet.  Biggy is no headtemp reading in tuning link, so running fans is hard to judge.  Below 230 deg ecu adds fuel (choke), and above 320 deg ecu takes away fuel (thinks bike is to hot).  So have to think there will be firmware upgrade for the PC V to go alone with the working ver of the software when it comes out.

[Diamondback]

 

Haven't been  by yet.  Will be there today.  Saw their lead tech at bike nite and he indicated there is a download but that they are not allowed to install it on a street legal bike.  Does that mean the race version () sets up to a higher HD rpm level?

Let you know.  But it doesn't sound promising.


 

[grc]

After reading some of the resent post I asked my dealer check again with Harley Motor Company to see about the stage one for my bike. They are being told that there is no way they will be able to make the Tac work properly when you have the rev xtender enabled with the PC-V  .  The MOCO insist there is no stage one download for the 09 SERG.  They come set up for the heavy breather and the VIN has restrictions when it comes to what can be downloaded to it.

Diamondback,
   Did you have any luck with your visit to the dealership?

Brassspike,
   I will be back in town this weekend. I will be riding through your area on Saturday I will give you a call.

When they hook up your bike to the Digital Tech equipment, they can query for available calibrations.  Everything is tied to the VIN of the bike (and no, you can't just type in a different VIN), and the equipment will only list those calibrations that are legal for your VIN.  In the case of the CVO110's, I assume that the stock maps already carry the stage 1 nomenclature just like the CVO103's did.  The ones we had to download on the older bikes were called "stage 1 race", and those were the ones that increased the rev limit to 6200.  You won't find any "race" calibrations on the Digital Tech anymore, those are part of the RACE USE ONLY! maps supplied with the SERT.  (I just love how H-D pretends to support the law, and uses it as an excuse for not fixing certain issues, but they are more than happy to sell the "RACE USE ONLY!" stuff by the boat load to folks who they know damned well ride strictly on the street.  But Mr. EPA, we put the "RACE USE ONLY!" stickers on the catalog and the parts, what more can we do (wink-wink)?  Makes me want to puke.

Perhaps, assuming what they did wasn't illegal and therefore won't get them in trouble, Doc could get his dealership to explain exactly how they increased his rev limit to 6200    Did they download a SERT map, or use a map meant for one of the approved accessories like the Heavy Breather, or is there a way they can reset it with Digital Technician?  Inquiring minds would love to know.

Jerry

[Diamondback]

 

Excellent point.

That makes sense that the SSERT raises the RPM level of the Tach so we know HD can and does do it. They just want some more money.

I know my dealer has under duress installed the Sert to make the customer happy at no charge (me on my 07 that would never run right until after I spent a thousand on the TMAT solution and three - yes three rebuilds).


 

[Birdman]

Jerry,
  Thanks for that excellent point!!  I am going to the dealership tomorrow to pick up my bike when I get there I am going to talk to them about what you just wrote.  They have had my bike for two weeks to try and figure out how to make it work and no fix yet.
  I have asked the service manager at the dealership to try and figure out how I can have the revlimiter xtended and have the tac work properly.  He said the only way is to put a race tuner on the bike.    THAT NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

   The other way will be to wait for someone like Thundermax to come out with a tuner that will replace the stock ECM.  All the after market tuners are having a difficult time breaking the code for the fly by wire system that why we haven't seen one from TMAX or anyone else.

  I truly love riding my Harley's I just don't like how they make it so difficult for us to get the best performace out of them once we spend our hard earned $$ to get them.

DOC,
  Like Jerry said it sure would be nice if you can find out from your dealer how they we able to make your work properly.

Thanks, Mike

[Smuuth]

I have talked with one of the lead service techs at my dealer as well.  He pretty much confirms what Jerry posted.  He told me the SE 110s are already set up as Stage I and have a 5800 rpm rev limit in the stock ECM download.  According to him, the factory says they cannot do the Stage II download to the SE bikes, which would raise the rev limit to 6200.  He also confirmed it is VIN restricted.  If you have a stock 96 cubic inch 2009 bike and buy the 110 cubic inch Stage II equipment, then you get the 6200 rev limit download with that, but even then you have to pay for it.

[GtreetSlide]

Wierd... On my 09, the TTS will let me set the rev limit all the way up to 7500 and my tach still works fine..

jb

[HOGMIKE]

I have talked with one of the lead service techs at my dealer as well.  He pretty much confirms what Jerry posted.  He told me the SE 110s are already set up as Stage I and have a 5800 rpm rev limit in the stock ECM download.  According to him, the factory says they cannot do the Stage II download to the SE bikes, which would raise the rev limit to 6200.  He also confirmed it is VIN restricted.  If you have a stock 96 cubic inch 2009 bike and buy the 110 cubic inch Stage II equipment, then you get the 6200 rev limit download with that, but even then you have to pay for it.

That's what's nice with the TTS......you can change whatever you want (within limits, of course!)

[Diamondback]

 

Well, if you buy the SERT you get the expanded RPM range.  The TTS replaces the SERT and thus they can control the RPM and thus the Tach but it is still a NB O2 arrangement or open loop.  I still like the WB O2 sensors and the ability for the system to adjust to heat, humidity, altitude, gas and other variables.

I remember when we had chains, kick start, drum brakes, carb's that wouldn't adjust to altitude (the old way).  HD knows this but because of EPA stuff they have ( I'll give them the benefit of the doubt) to go with NB O2 sensors to keep the AFR above 14.2 to 14.7.  However, the 110 then runs very hot and loses power.

I guess when HD goes to water cooled we'll get much poorer gas mileage but meet the EPA rules.  Even the Jap and Euro bikes have issues with heat (reference the Honda Gold Wing and ST1300).

Thus, the aftermarket guys either take over the ECM from HD (TTS or TMAT) or leave it in place and basically trick into working better (Fuel Pak and PC V). 

Seems, HD would allow a simple override of the tach but I guess not.   

[GtreetSlide]

Thus, the aftermarket guys either take over the ECM from HD (TTS or TMAT) or leave it in place and basically trick into working better (Fuel Pak and PC V). 

TTS doesn't really replace the ECU, it just allows access to change the factory settings; and by changing a few settings, allows you to dial in most of the VE tables so your AFR settings are actually are on target. Basically it allows you to setup your ecu to run in closed loop for all but the 100% field and then uses the NB sensors to provide the feedback necessary to correct the VEs. Once you have the VEs correct, you can set the ECU to run in closed and/or open loop depending on how you choose to set it up.
My 103 (09 SG) is running a lot cooler using this process and Mvs are set to run 14.4 in closed loop. After the Vtune has done it's thing, then you can be sure that even the open loop fields are actually providing the AFR you set. (including CLB offsets).. 

OK Steve, did I get that right, LOL...

jb

[HDDOCFL]

I never asked how the tack reads to 6200 but remember I have not had the bike above 5800 rpms yet , but it reads to that rpm with the PCV in the system, I will check with the tech that did the boot to the ecm and find out what was done.  Doc

[grc]

.......................................................

Seems, HD would allow a simple override of the tach but I guess not.   

Not unless they have a way to make more money off you.  Nothing (other than BS) is free in the world of Harley.  And btw, if you were selling an engine that doesn't exactly have exemplary reliability in stock form would you want people jacking up the rev limiter and then expecting you to warrant the thing without making a tidy extra profit first?  I didn't think so.

Jerry

[HDDOCFL]

Well I found out why my bike will hit 6200 rpms with the PCV in it, The bike was downloaded with a canned SSert map. Seems I had it done on the first bike and when they replaced the bike, gave me this one with it in there for me also.   Doc

[Diamondback]

 

Yes, got the same answer at my dealership.  Occasionally, they will load a SERT map to appease the customer.  This then allows the ECM to send the tach up to 6200. 

I am very satisfied with the PC V and autotune and to tell the truth rarely get the bike above 5000 much less 6000.  I'll stick with what I got.  The WB O2 sensors did a great job on  a trip to Coronado trail where it was 38 degrees at 9000 feet and 86 degrees at 3000 feet.  Bike ran great no complaints.

 

[Birdman]

Thanks for checking DOC.

[Birdman]

Here is a Quote I received from Dyno Jet:
 "So i talked to the guy that teaches the Screamin Eagle tuner classes and he did say that HD has phased out the ECM stage burns. So I guess to only way to get your bike to rev to 6200 AND show 6200 would be with a Race Tuner."

This is the samething the dealer told me.   So if you want to buy a PCV beware of the issue with the TAC if that is a concern to you.

I have my bike back. I still have the PCV installed (FOR NOW) and now I know the limitation of my Tac.

[Diamondback]

 


I like the PC V and I rarely run my bike past five much less six.  I'm keeping it.