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Author Topic: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!  (Read 20806 times)

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joker1450

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This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« on: November 28, 2005, 03:21:15 PM »

FLHT '02 50.000 Km

this is my rear cam tensioner and the bearing that are "cooking"















 :o
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2005, 04:14:07 PM »

With the big chunks of material missing out of the cam chain tensioner, you might want to look at your oil pump, too.  Probably not going to be good.

And let me guess...........the front cam chain tensioner looked normal? [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
« Last Edit: November 28, 2005, 04:15:08 PM by JCZ »
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John S

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2005, 04:23:18 PM »

I would stop screwing around with that technology and go with a gear drive setup.  Granted it is a lot of money (new cams because of reverse direction) but the reliability and accuracy of the timing is far better.  I am not sure if you have ever stopped by the S&S booth somewhere but they traditionally have a hand turned demonstration between a gear driven setup and a stock tensioner.  It is quite dramatic and it sold me.  But, as I said, money has to be spent.

The funny thing too is that I have a "B" (ballanced) motor and the same deal is with the chain for the counter balancers on the opposite side.  Now if someone could come up with a more reliable system to replace that horsepower is to be made there as well.

Friction uses power and these two tensioners have a lot of friction between them!!

 :o :-[
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2005, 02:35:29 PM »

With all this talk on tensioners I will be biting the bullet and going gear.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2005, 08:21:27 AM »

I've seen a number of these , as well as heard too many stories of failures.

I'm going with gear drive on my 95 build .  It's unfortunate that the MoCo switched away from gear drives that were used on the Evo's
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2005, 10:30:56 AM »

Quote
FLHT '02 50.000 Km

this is my rear cam tensioner and the bearing that are "cooking"



 :o

I don't see anything "cooking"  I see a worn tensioner that appears by the marks on the side to have been pried up with a screwdriver or pliers and some bearings that were removed from the cam plate and cases.  The wear that you picture looks just like every other worn tensioner.  In fact, your picture matches the picture of the one in the service manual saying to replace it.  As for the posts on chunks and oil pumps, I don't see any chunks missing.  If the tensioner had broken, then I would look for chunks.  
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2005, 12:59:40 PM »

Quote

I don't see anything "cooking"  I see a worn tensioner that appears by the marks on the side to have been pried up with a screwdriver or pliers and some bearings that were removed from the cam plate and cases.  The wear that you picture looks just like every other worn tensioner.  In fact, your picture matches the picture of the one in the service manual saying to replace it.  As for the posts on chunks and oil pumps, I don't see any chunks missing.  If the tensioner had broken, then I would look for chunks.  

I've saw several "worn" cam chain tensioners and they do not all look like those pictured above.  Some are just worn smooth but no divets (looks like little chunks missing).  

hd-dude (a regualr contributer to this site) recently showed me some that he removed.  While the front one looks fairly normal, it was the rear tensioner that looked simular to the photos above and the oil pump was scored as a result of the little "chunks" floating around in there.....I saw it first hand......and that was a low milage bike (seems like it was 5 or 6k miles).
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2005, 02:51:21 PM »

Yeah, 'er 'uh, joker1450,
  Are you using HD 20W/50, or synthetic?  Please advise.  Later--HUBBARD
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2005, 04:55:50 PM »

For the first two year I have used the HD mineral oil, nou ONLY Mobil 1 Racing 15-50.

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2005, 09:02:59 PM »

Quote
Yeah, 'er 'uh, joker1450,
  Are you using HD 20W/50, or synthetic?  Please advise.  Later--HUBBARD

Hubbard ,
  I just did a 95 CI on my 05 Ultra and swapped to a GearDrive System. The motor has 11,000 miles on it and has always run 20w50 Harley Syn.
The shoe with the chunks out of it is the outside shoe.
Im just waiting on some tools from Georges Garage on Ebay to finish the job and see if this thing will run now.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2005, 09:45:38 PM »

Quote

Hubbard ,
  I just did a 95 CI on my 05 Ultra and swapped to a GearDrive System. The motor has 11,000 miles on it and has always run 20w50 Harley Syn.
The shoe with the chunks out of it is the outside shoe.
Im just waiting on some tools from Georges Garage on Ebay to finish the job and see if this thing will run now.

Yeah, 'er 'uh, DavidB,
  Took Ol' Maudie down to Tilley's, Thursday, to have the cam shoes inspected, and valve springs replaced.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] I'm curious as to what kind of shape mine are in.  [smiley=nixweiss.gif] I've shown that Motor no mercy, and it has been trouble free.  Just doing some PM.  If they are damaged, I may replace with gear driven cams.  I used HD 20W/50 for break in period, and have had Synthetic in it since.  Somewhere around 8500-9000 miles since I had it built to a 120".  Later--HUBBARD  
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2005, 10:14:41 PM »

Quote

Yeah, 'er 'uh, DavidB,
  Took Ol' Maudie down to Tilley's, Thursday, to have the cam shoes inspected, and valve springs replaced.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] I'm curious as to what kind of shape mine are in.  [smiley=nixweiss.gif] I've shown that Motor no mercy, and it has been trouble free.  Just doing some PM.  If they are damaged, I may replace with gear driven cams.  I used HD 20W/50 for break in period, and have had Synthetic in it since.  Somewhere around 8500-9000 miles since I had it built to a 120".  Later--HUBBARD  

Hey Hub, I'm shocked to know that you did not have gears put in her when she was built up. What cams did you use and why? just curious [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2005, 10:18:37 PM »

Quote

Yeah, 'er 'uh, DavidB,
  Took Ol' Maudie down to Tilley's, Thursday, to have the cam shoes inspected, and valve springs replaced.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] I'm curious as to what kind of shape mine are in.  [smiley=nixweiss.gif] I've shown that Motor no mercy, and it has been trouble free.  Just doing some PM.  If they are damaged, I may replace with gear driven cams.  I used HD 20W/50 for break in period, and have had Synthetic in it since.  Somewhere around 8500-9000 miles since I had it built to a 120".  Later--HUBBARD  

I rode from Seattle back to the Nc with Don this year on the Petty Charity Ride. He is one heck of a LD Rider.
Ask him about the fog the rain and the free range cows on the Big Horn Mountains.
Dave


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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2005, 10:05:31 AM »

Quote

I don't see anything "cooking"  I see a worn tensioner that appears by the marks on the side to have been pried up with a screwdriver or pliers and some bearings that were removed from the cam plate and cases.  The wear that you picture looks just like every other worn tensioner.  In fact, your picture matches the picture of the one in the service manual saying to replace it.  As for the posts on chunks and oil pumps, I don't see any chunks missing.  If the tensioner had broken, then I would look for chunks.  

A chunk or not a chunk?  The little round BB shaped "divots" in the shoe are the ones that quietly cause the oil pump and related problems.  Out of the many, many that I have seen, I've never seen a "broken" shoe that actually threw large chunks of material, but have seen plenty with as little as 5k that have galled the bearings (as shown in the prior pics) and have ended up causing the oil pump to go unexpectedly "south" causing extensive damage.  If your shoes are wearing, the quickest way to check without tearing down is to cut your oil filter and spread the folds for inspection.  If you see any of the brown "chunks" and or "divots" your shoes are about to become a very expensive repair.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2005, 11:06:06 AM »

Quote

Hey Hub, I'm shocked to know that you did not have gears put in her when she was built up. What cams did you use and why? just curious [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Yeah, 'er 'uh, hd-dude,
  SE-260's, as per Don Tilley.  At the time he built my Engine, he was not all that impressed with Gear Drive cams.  He knows I like top end speed, and these cams performed well.  Ain't seen nobodys tail lights, yet!  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD  
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2005, 11:23:50 AM »

Quote

I rode from Seattle back to the Nc with Don this year on the Petty Charity Ride. He is one heck of a LD Rider.
Ask him about the fog the rain and the free range cows on the Big Horn Mountains.
Dave



Yeah, 'er 'uh, DavidB,
  He invited me to go on that ride, but some of us have to work for a livin'!  [smiley=furious2.gif] We were in deep conversation last Thursday, when the power went off, and he had to close up shop.  He's pretty much all healed up now, and ready to get back on a Dresser.  He's a Trooper, no doubt.  I could sit and listen to him all day.  From his stories about racing against Richard Petty, Ned Jarrett, Ralph Earnhart and Cale Yarbrough, right up to the present day.  He's just an an amazing Man!  Later--HUBBARD    
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2005, 03:07:00 PM »

Yeah, er, uh, BLM777,
  Talked to Neal Taylor, my Engine Builder at Tilley's, this a.m.  It appears my gut told me right, yet again.  Ol' Maudie had one valve keeper broken, but in place.  Wouldn't have been for long, though.  That would have been BIG!  Valve seats, loose.  No big deal, but loose.  Front tensioner, shoe scarred, but intact.  Rear tensioner, shoe gone, chain riding on the metal.  Oil pump, junked out.  That's why the Oil Pressure didn't come immediately, when OTIS and I loaded her up to go.  Ol' girl couldn't have survived much longer.  Cam shoes were scheduled for inspection @ 15K miles, but something kept tellin' me do it now.  Tilley suggested the RedShift Gear Drives from Zipper's, and I agreed.  I'll post all failed parts when I bring the Ol' Girl home.  Man, it feels good to catch it before it blows all to hell!  Wish I had that talent with Women!  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD    
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2005, 04:01:19 PM »

Hub, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.  Just glad it got caught now rather than 200 miles later and 150 miles away from home.  Sounds like the bike gave you a Christmas present all by herself.

And, of course, before and after comparisons on the cams; PLEASE !
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2005, 05:13:51 PM »

Quote
 Man, it feels good to catch it before it blows all to hell!  Wish I had that talent with Women!  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD    
Hub, you are you lucky so & so!  Good timing on taking ole Maudie in for a check-up.  And my guess is that you did and still do, you just won't listen to yourself.  Har!  spyder
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2005, 05:15:38 PM »

Quote
Hub, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.  Just glad it got caught now rather than 200 miles later and 150 miles away from home.  Sounds like the bike gave you a Christmas present all by herself.

And, of course, before and after comparisons on the cams; PLEASE !

It will be done!  Later--HUBBARD
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2005, 05:16:41 PM »

Quote
Hub, you are you lucky so & so!  Good timing on taking ole Maudie in for a check-up.  And my guess is that you did and still do, you just won't listen to yourself.  Har!  spyder

Brilliant deduction, my Good Man!  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2005, 09:19:46 PM »

I'am one of the few people that knows what Maudie has been through if she would have blew Hubbard you couldn't complain she's been wide open for 2 yrs.

                                  OTIS [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2005, 07:57:15 AM »

How much of these failures can be related to rpm during the life of these tensioner shoes? Hub, do you live in the 4000 plus rpm range over the 9600 miles on your set? Is it rpm that wears some out at 9000 miles, yet some are going 50,000 to see this much wear? I'm at 20,000KM( 12,500 miles). Use HD synthetic 3. Changed oil at 1000, 5000, and 10,000. Cut open every filter and media has been clean. Really am going to talk to my dealer about this. Have the 7 year warranty. Hopefully that covers my butt.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2005, 08:01:35 AM »

Quote
Yeah, er, uh, BLM777,
  Talked to Neal Taylor, my Engine Builder at Tilley's, this a.m.  It appears my gut told me right, yet again.  Ol' Maudie had one valve keeper broken, but in place.  Wouldn't have been for long, though.  That would have been BIG!  Valve seats, loose.  No big deal, but loose.  Front tensioner, shoe scarred, but intact.  Rear tensioner, shoe gone, chain riding on the metal.  Oil pump, junked out.  That's why the Oil Pressure didn't come immediately, when OTIS and I loaded her up to go.  Ol' girl couldn't have survived much longer.  Cam shoes were scheduled for inspection @ 15K miles, but something kept tellin' me do it now.  Tilley suggested the RedShift Gear Drives from Zipper's, and I agreed.  I'll post all failed parts when I bring the Ol' Girl home.  Man, it feels good to catch it before it blows all to hell!  Wish I had that talent with Women!  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD    

That's some scary chit, Hub.  I'm about getting to the point where the cam gets changed to gear drive as one of the first priorities on bikes I'm keeping for a while.  I've always figured that there was 15-20K grace period with those nasty little "shoes", but am seeing more and more that some are letting go waaaaay early.  Really looking forward to watching ol' Maudie run with the RedShift setup.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2005, 09:15:02 AM »

Quote
How much of these failures can be related to rpm during the life of these tensioner shoes? Hub, do you live in the 4000 plus rpm range over the 9600 miles on your set? Is it rpm that wears some out at 9000 miles, yet some are going 50,000 to see this much wear? I'm at 20,000KM( 12,500 miles). Use HD synthetic 3. Changed oil at 1000, 5000, and 10,000. Cut open every filter and media has been clean. Really am going to talk to my dealer about this. Have the 7 year warranty. Hopefully that covers my butt.

Hub's tensioner wear is because he has a very agressive cam with lots of lift..and ..the high pressure valve springs needed to get the valves closed before they get friendly with a piston top. Lot more pressure on the lifter..more pressure on the cam lobes..more stress on the cam chains to turn the cams...more pressure and stress on the tensioner blocks....lots of wear.
He'll be good to go with the gear drive...Red shift 657's I bet...
Of course, the fact that Hub has to down shift to slow the bike from "light speed" because his brakes pads long ago told him " F-you..we aint takin this anymore" ..Just might have something to do with it!
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2005, 09:55:10 AM »

Quote

Hub's tensioner wear is because he has a very agressive cam with lots of lift..

Got to disagree on that observation.  Looked at an '05 dyna in the shop this past weekend with 5100 on the odometer and a trashed stock 88....source of the problem....cam shoes!  I've know the bike and the lady that owns it since new.  Probably not a better maintained, easily ridden scoot in the country.  My observations....CHAIN DRIVE=JUNK.  Sorry, HD.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2005, 10:26:01 AM »

This chit is scary. I had gear drive cams on my wish list and after seeing and reading all the information that is here and other places it has definitely moved up on the priority list. It amazes me that the MoCo is still putting chain drives in our bikes. You would think after a couple times replacing/repairing these (and in some cases doing major motor work because of the complications due to failure) that they would go to gear drive from factory. I've heard that there is a little more noise associated with gear drive vs. chain drive and was wondering is that the reason they don't? [smiley=confused5.gif] But for most of us we have upgraded our factory exhaust anyway so is the difference that noticeable? Either way I will be going to gear drives sooner then later.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2005, 10:47:10 AM »

Quote
This chit is scary. I had gear drive cams on my wish list and after seeing and reading all the information that is here and other places it has definitely moved up on the priority list. It amazes me that the MoCo is still putting chain drives in our bikes. [highlight]You would think after a couple times replacing/repairing these (and in some cases doing major motor work because of the complications due to failure) that they would go to gear drive from factory[/highlight]. I've heard that there is a little more noise associated with gear drive vs. chain drive and was wondering is that the reason they don't? [smiley=confused5.gif] But for most of us we have upgraded our factory exhaust anyway so is the difference that noticeable? Either way I will be going to gear drives sooner then later.

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Fired00d,

It would be nice if they would go back to gears, but it really shouldn't be necessary.  Seems rather strange to me that I've owned 3 SUV type vehicles with overhead cams, chains, and tensioners with zero problems, and based on warranty data my experience is typical.  The auto industry seems to be able to make tensioners that last the life of the engine, so there is no legitimate reason H-D can't do the same.  IMHO, this is another case of $$$ being more important than reliability or customer satisfaction to H-D.  Yes, in theory gear drive is slightly noiser than chain, so H-D would have to reduce noise elsewhere to meet noise standards.  There are plenty of other areas they could do that without reducing the reliability of the engine.

Jerry
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2005, 12:31:05 PM »

Quote
Fired00d,

It would be nice if they would go back to gears, but it really shouldn't be necessary.  Seems rather strange to me that I've owned 3 SUV type vehicles with overhead cams, chains, and tensioners with zero problems, and based on warranty data my experience is typical.  [highlight]The auto industry seems to be able to make tensioners that last the life of the engine, so there is no legitimate reason H-D can't do the same.  IMHO, this is another case of $$$ being more important than reliability or customer satisfaction to H-D.[/highlight]  Yes, in theory gear drive is slightly noiser than chain, so H-D would have to reduce noise elsewhere to meet noise standards.  There are plenty of other areas they could do that without reducing the reliability of the engine.


Jerry

Jerry,
Seems here again we have a "quality" issue  or as you put it $$$ issue. It's not rocket science but shouldn't they know we pay good money for "inferior" product, then why wouldn't we pay more for a quality product out the door? I guess they are looking at numbers (how many bikes are in production with chain drive vs. how many have the failure), and when they don't have high enough failures they don't believe there is a problem. But if they would truly look at the numbers I would like to see how many bikes in production with chain drive, still have chain drive. One thing for sure is you can't have a chain drive/tensioner failure with gear drive cams. [smiley=confused5.gif] As you stated chain drive cams with better quality chain tensioners seem to work well on autos w/o failures, why can't we have them on our scooters?

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2005, 12:40:13 PM »

Quote

Got to disagree on that observation.  Looked at an '05 dyna in the shop this past weekend with 5100 on the odometer and a trashed stock 88....source of the problem....cam shoes!  I've know the bike and the lady that owns it since new.  Probably not a better maintained, easily ridden scoot in the country.  My observations....CHAIN DRIVE=JUNK.  Sorry, HD.

That 5100 mile bike could also be riding style...lugging the motor...chugging around in too low a gear for the given rpm will also result in lots of chain slap....same thing you can see in the bottom span of the rear drive belt as it hops up and down as you ride behind and to the side of the guy that just has to run 2000 rpm in fifth gear cause it "sounds " good.
Now I'm not saying it should happen... but it does and thats why we're all waiting on Zippers.
If the slack or play never changed on the chain ...dependent on loading and turning effort..there would be no need for a tensioner. We've all heard of these guys with real high mileage bikes.. 03's and 04's with 50-60000 miles with tensioners that show realitively little wear. Thats because the motor sits at 3,000 rpm rolling down the highway under a constant/continous/unvaring load....little shifting for the amount of miles on the bike...less abuse on the tensioners.
A motor like Hubbards with 180 lb CLOSED pressure springs will put lots more load on the face of the lobe as it tries to force the lifter up to open the valve. So the effort to turn the cam goes up , and the chain pushes harder against the tensioner. Then when it drops off the nose of the big ramp on the cam..all that load disappears suddenly..then starts all over again.
Just not as much abuse with a stock cam with .479 lift and soft springs. Unless you're constantly lugging the the motor and rattling the chains.
It's a Sh*tty design as we all agree....thats a bomb waiting to happen with agressive ramps and high pressure springs.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 12:43:46 PM by syclone »
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2005, 12:42:18 PM »

Quote

Jerry,
Seems here again we have a "quality" issue  or as you put it $$$ issue. It's not rocket science but shouldn't they know we pay good money for "inferior" product, then why wouldn't we pay more for a quality product out the door? I guess they are looking at numbers (how many bikes are in production with chain drive vs. how many have the failure), and when they don't have high enough failures they don't believe there is a problem. But if they would truly look at the numbers I would like to see how many bikes in production with chain drive, still have chain drive. One thing for sure is you can't have a chain drive/tensioner failure with gear drive cams. [smiley=confused5.gif] As you stated chain drive cams with better quality chain tensioners seem to work well on autos w/o failures, why can't we have them on our scooters?

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Take a look at the tensioners in the attached illustration for one of my 4-wheel vehicles.  Then take a look at the tiny ones H-D uses.  May have something to do with the big difference in longevity, along with the quality of the material.  

Jerry
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2005, 01:04:13 PM »

Quote
Take a look at the tensioners in the attached illustration for one of my 4-wheel vehicles.  Then take a look at the tiny ones H-D uses.  May have something to do with the big difference in longevity, along with the quality of the material.  

Jerry
I agree with Jerry 100%. Those tensioners are of a size that distributes the loading of the chain over about 8 inches of area..now put the same loading and unloading on a lenght 1/2 as long and the wear will no doubt double.  The automovive chains do have the benefit of much more equal/ gradual loading and unloading as in the case of a 4 valve 4 cylinder. Each cam is working 4 cylinders intake or exhasut valves , with different timing events so the chain "shock" is spread more evenly over 360 degrees of rotation...the "load-unload" is diluted.
So maybe the problem really is that our motors are just too small !!  LOL
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2005, 01:04:52 PM »

Would the length of the chains determine length of tensioners? As your picture shows auto tensioners are quite large/long as is the chain. I would be interested to know the type of material they (auto) use in comparison to what MoCo uses. Also what the ratio of the chain length to tensioner length just to see if MoCo is in ballpark.

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2005, 01:19:48 PM »

Quote
Would the length of the chains determine length of tensioners? As your picture shows auto tensioners are quite large/long as is the chain. I would be interested to know the type of material they (auto) use in comparison to what MoCo uses. Also what the ratio of the chain length to tensioner length just to see if MoCo is in ballpark.

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You want as much contact area as possible.. in the above cut-a way..you can see that if the chains were shorter..less slack ..there wouldnt be as much room for that size shoe in this application.  the closer you space the drive and driven gears...the less this becomes an option especially when counting on a spring loaded contant pressure tensioner.
We'll have to see how the new Dynas fare with their larger hydraulic controlled wear blocks. You can run more chain length, which gives you more slack and room for more contact area, when you can vary the pressure on the chain with a hydraulic plunger pushing on the shoe.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2005, 01:44:37 PM »

wonder how much 'friction' there is in that it's 'constant pressure'?  Wouldn't it be a trade-off of maintaining control of the chain flex and rubbing off horsepower?  Or is the amt. of friction negligable?  This chit worries my little feeble mind.....'cause I can get to be a 'nervous nellie' over my mc.  [smiley=nervous.gif] har!  spyder
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2005, 01:50:04 PM »

Quote
You want as much contact area as possible.. in the above cut-a way..you can see that if the chains were shorter..less slack ..there wouldnt be as much room for that size shoe in this application.  the closer you space the drive and driven gears...the less this becomes an option especially when counting on a spring loaded contant pressure tensioner.
[highlight]We'll have to see how the new Dynas fare with their larger hydraulic controlled wear blocks. You can run more chain length, which gives you more slack and room for more contact area[/highlight], when you can vary the pressure on the chain with a hydraulic plunger pushing on the shoe.

Another example - look at the size of the new primary tensioner shoe on the '06 Dyna, versus the shoe on our bikes.  Almost covers the entire space from the crank sprocket to the clutch.

I still think the cam shoe problem is mostly a part quality issue, since I don't remember huge numbers of failures on the early TC88's.  The design is marginal, but something else seems to have changed.  [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Jerry
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2005, 01:51:48 PM »

Quote
wonder how much 'friction' there is in that it's 'constant pressure'?  Wouldn't it be a trade-off of maintaining control of the chain flex and rubbing off horsepower?  Or is the amt. of friction negligable?  This chit worries my little feeble mind.....'cause I can get to be a 'nervous nellie' over my mc.  [smiley=nervous.gif] har!  spyder
Have no idea on the spring rating..they are very stiff.
Gear drive it. First thing done on my other bikes before they were broken in was motor work with gear drive cams.
As soon as Zippers have completed their packages for cvo heads the SEEG is gettin cams and or a package.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 01:52:12 PM by syclone »
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2005, 12:02:24 AM »

Quote
Have no idea on the spring rating..they are very stiff.
Gear drive it. First thing done on my other bikes before they were broken in was motor work with gear drive cams.
As soon as Zippers have completed their packages for cvo heads the SEEG is gettin cams and or a package.

I agree,
  I just put a gear drive in a bike with 10,000 miles on it. The cam shoe had chunks out of it. The SEEG is next.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2005, 02:13:17 PM »

Not surprising the moco just like most oem’s prefer chains vs gears, they say noise but cost is the most obvious. I remember the snowmobile manufactures switching from a contact button much like in our primary or on our cam chains to a steel roller to contact the slack side of the chain in their chaincase with a manual lock. I have also seen this combination in some cars. If your going to use chains seems like a better solution especially when the oil we use is required not to have friction modifiers.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2005, 01:42:44 PM »

Yeah, 'er 'uh, Gentlemen,
  Rode down to Tilley's yesterday, to peer upon Ol' Maudie.  Just couldn't stand it!  Service was not open, so Neal was not there, and Tilley had just left for Florida.  Anyway, I took these pictures of the cam plate and tensioner shoes.  Also, notice the White deposits on the Piston tops.  Blue Fuel, I presume.  Later--HUBBARD
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 01:50:30 PM by HUBBARD »
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2005, 01:45:13 PM »

Rear Tensioner Shoe-Notice Chunk in Chain
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 01:47:29 PM by twolanerider »
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2005, 01:46:58 PM »

Blue Fuel?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 01:48:57 PM by twolanerider »
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2005, 01:51:22 PM »

Another Piston Shot
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 01:53:43 PM by twolanerider »
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2005, 01:52:57 PM »

Hey Hub, How bad was the oil pump?

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2005, 01:55:34 PM »

Man oh man, you're gonna be cleaning on Maude for weeks when she gets home.....
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2005, 02:02:14 PM »

Quote
Hey Hub, How bad was the oil pump?

Yeah, 'er 'uh, hd-dude,
  Junked out.  I didn't want to mess around on Neal's bench, and disturb his lay-out, while he wasn't there.  He'll give me all the failed parts, when I pick Her up.  I'll post them all, then.  Later--HUbbard  
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2005, 02:24:32 PM »

Hey Hub',
That rear tensioner looks gruesome man, looks like some major pieces are MIA. Did I understand correctly that you have only 15K on the tensioners ? Lordy, MOCO must get a a new design or new vendor for these puppies. This chit is not good.  :o
Joe
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2005, 03:26:08 PM »

Quote
Hey Hub',
That rear tensioner looks gruesome man, looks like some major pieces are MIA. Did I understand correctly that you have only 15K on the tensioners ? Lordy, MOCO must get a a new design or new vendor for these puppies. This chit is not good.  :o
Joe

Yeah, 'er 'uh, CVOJOE,
  Those tensioners were installed when I uprated the Motor to 120 cu.in., in February, of '04!  That was approximately 8-9000 miles ago.  I will report the exact miles, when I post all the failed parts.  The total repair should be completed soon.  Later--HUBBARD  
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2005, 03:27:16 PM »

Hey Hub, what's ole Maudie been snortin'?  Har!  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]  spyder
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 03:29:04 PM by spydglide »
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2005, 03:28:49 PM »

Quote
Man oh man, you're gonna be cleaning on Maude for weeks when she gets home.....

Yeah, 'er 'uh, Twolane,
  Ain't it th' truth?  Good therapy, though.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] God knows, I need it!  Later--HUBBARD
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2005, 07:39:19 PM »

Man, let's hope the DEA doesn't see those pistons or we'll have a recall and drug dogs galore.   [smiley=bobby2.gif] [smiley=drunk.gif]
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2005, 08:12:44 PM »

Quote

Yeah, 'er 'uh, DavidB,
  Took Ol' Maudie down to Tilley's, Thursday, to have the cam shoes inspected, and valve springs replaced.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] I'm curious as to what kind of shape mine are in.  [smiley=nixweiss.gif] I've shown that Motor no mercy, [highlight]and it has been trouble free[/highlight].  Just doing some PM.  If they are damaged, I may replace with gear driven cams.  I used HD 20W/50 for break in period, and have had Synthetic in it since.  Somewhere around 8500-9000 miles since I had it built to a 120".  Later--HUBBARD  

Yeah, 'er 'uh, DavidB,
  Guess I better rephrase that, huh?  Due to the chain of events subsequent to the above post, I wish to change "trouble free", to "worry free!"  I'm not complaining, at all.  I've had more fun on that Motorsickle, than the Law allows!  This is just one of the variable costs that come with runnin' in the Fast Lane!  It could have been much worse.  I'm thankful it wasn't.  Later--HUBBARD  
  
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2005, 08:26:51 PM »

Quote
Hey Hub, what's ole Maudie been snortin'?  Har!  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]  spyder

Yeah, 'er 'uh, spyder,
  TORCO--112 Octane!  I'm not certain, I just think that's what the residue is.  Or, Hey, it coulda' been the time I had a brain fart, and put Diesel Fuel in Her on the way to Daytona, from Belleview!  After that colossal blunder, I had to use ether to get her started back!  I cussed my ownself out, that day!  Later--HUBBARD
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2005, 08:34:59 PM »

Quote
Man, let's hope the DEA doesn't see those pistons or we'll have a recall and drug dogs galore.   [smiley=bobby2.gif] [smiley=drunk.gif]

Yeah, 'er 'uh, CVOJOE,
  DEA.  That abbreviation, or word to some, used to make me shutter.  Sure am thankful I don't have to live that life, anymore.  Seriously.  I can laugh about it now, but it won't funny then.  Later--HUBBARD
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2005, 09:51:00 PM »

Hey Hubbard, I remember somewhere in this thread where you said you use synthetic in maudie but I dont remember reading what brand.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2005, 10:12:37 PM »

Hey Hubbard,
   Look at and andrews 59g geardrive system.
It could be a viable option to the se-260.
Dave
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2005, 07:39:46 AM »

Quote

Got to disagree on that observation.  Looked at an '05 dyna in the shop this past weekend with 5100 on the odometer and a trashed stock 88....source of the problem....cam shoes!  I've know the bike and the lady that owns it since new.  Probably not a better maintained, easily ridden scoot in the country.  My observations....CHAIN DRIVE=JUNK.  Sorry, HD.

Well after finally reading most of this thread I feel the need to chime in. This info was realyed to me from the troops (maybe just one person) at Zippers some time ago. Yes there are some problems. BLM some of the problems are caused by agressive cam profiles BUT there is one other problem that exsists. The MOCO uses 2 different vendors for the chain. It seems that one vendors chains have little or no effect in a stock bike, and the other has a lot of problems. I really don't remember now what the difference was. I am thinking it had something to do with initial tension. Next time I am down there I will inquire again.

One thing to remember when you change your cams in these bikes you are adding more stress in an area that already has toooooo much stress in the first place. The only fix is GEAR DRIVEN CAMS.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

 
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2005, 08:38:55 AM »

And HD says there is no problem with the tensioners.  Go figure must be the same guy that checks chrome and paint.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2005, 10:11:37 AM »

Hub, when we were racing sleds we would see pistons like these. Running a hot day with a leaned out engine was big power till the end. The tops of the pistons would turn this same color when they were hot enough to start melting the aluminum. Unfortunately in a 2 stroke with only one ring and revs up at 9000 they didn't live. Burn off the residue with a drill and a wire brush and see if the aluminum is pitted or not. If it's not it's residue from fuel. If there are pitts in the top of the pistons, they were very hot at one time and about to burn through. The heads (in the bowl) will show heat distortion as well some times.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2005, 10:12:52 AM by Bad_Ass_2 »
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2005, 04:03:01 PM »

Quote
Hey Hubbard, I remember somewhere in this thread where you said you use synthetic in maudie but I dont remember reading [highlight]what brand[/highlight].

Yeah, 'er 'uh, reo,
  HD. Used HD 20W/50 dring break-in.  Heat-Seat method.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] Not under 2000, not over 4000rpm for 3-400 miles @ 30 miles a day.  Later--HUBBARD
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2005, 04:18:09 PM »

Quote
Hub, when we were racing sleds we would see pistons like these. Running a hot day with a leaned out engine was big power till the end. The tops of the pistons would turn this same color when they were hot enough to start melting the aluminum. Unfortunately in a 2 stroke with only one ring and revs up at 9000 they didn't live. Burn off the residue with a drill and a wire brush and see if the aluminum is pitted or not. If it's not it's residue from fuel. If there are pitts in the top of the pistons, they were very hot at one time and about to burn through. The heads (in the bowl) will show heat distortion as well some times.

Yeah, 'er 'uh, BadAss2,
  You're right.  I hope that's not the case with mine, as I have always avoided slow moving traffic as best I could, and policed my AFR consistently, as to not run too lean.  The Heads looked good.  Torque plates haven't arrived, as of today.  Christmas has the freight guys behind, I'd say.  We'll Git-R-Done!  Later--HUBBARD    
  
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2005, 04:23:15 PM »

Quote
And HD says there is no problem with the tensioners.  Go figure must be the same guy that checks chrome and paint.

Yeah, 'er 'uh, mr_magoo,
  I have no quams with the MoCo on this one.  I have abused that Motor.  This one's on me!  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD  
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #62 on: January 01, 2006, 11:09:59 PM »

Dawg,

It will be interesting to see if the MOCO implements the new chain system and oil pump currently in the 06 dyna's to all TC motors next year.  While its not proven yet I will conceed that, but it is technically and equal answer to the gear drive solution.   I will see if I can dig up the information or a link.  

It would seem that the MOCO finally woke up, they have a new and improved oil pump as well to go with this set up in the dyna (scavenges well too I hear)....  Something else I heard was it resembles the fueling oil pump :)   I can't confirm if that is who made this one as well.   Anyone with more please share.

-harry
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2006, 12:38:40 AM »

Quote
Dawg,

It will be interesting to see if the MOCO implements the new chain system and oil pump currently in the 06 dyna's to all TC motors next year.  While its not proven yet I will conceed that, but it is technically and equal answer to the gear drive solution.   I will see if I can dig up the information or a link.  

It would seem that the MOCO finally woke up, they have a new and improved oil pump as well to go with this set up in the dyna (scavenges well too I hear)....  Something else I heard was it resembles the fueling oil pump :)   I can't confirm if that is who made this one as well.   Anyone with more please share.

-harry

Here's a pdf hyperlink to the 06 technical forum, you can find the Dyna engine changes on starting on page 32
http://royogren.com/Harley/06model-year.pdf
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2006, 08:31:21 PM »

Thanks Reo for posting it.   I guess time will tell what the MOCO does next with these changes.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2006, 10:33:51 PM »

Here is the box of junk I got left over from doing a geardrive system on a friends bike. The shoes had 20,000 miles on them but looked almost new. This motor was ridden very consertively by a girl. Like Hubbard said , I believe most of the wear issues come into play when these bikes ar ridden hard and a lot of friction heat builds up between the shoes and the chain. That plastic can only stand so much heat and the higher lift cams just make it worse at high speed.
Dave
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2006, 10:20:20 AM »

Quote
Here is the box of junk I got left over from doing a geardrive system on a friends bike. The shoes had 20,000 miles on them but looked almost new. This motor was ridden very consertively by a girl. Like Hubbard said , I believe most of the wear issues come into play when these bikes ar ridden hard and a lot of friction heat builds up between the shoes and the chain. That plastic can only stand so much heat and the higher lift cams just make it worse at high speed.
Dave

DavidB,
  What were the cams you replaced, and what did you install?  Please advise.  Later--HUBBARD
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2006, 12:28:35 PM »

Quote
Dawg,

It will be interesting to see if the MOCO implements the new chain system and oil pump currently in the 06 dyna's to all TC motors next year.  While its not proven yet I will conceed that, but it is technically and equal answer to the gear drive solution.   I will see if I can dig up the information or a link.  

It would seem that the MOCO finally woke up, they have a new and improved oil pump as well to go with this set up in the dyna (scavenges well too I hear)....  Something else I heard was it resembles the fueling oil pump :)   I can't confirm if that is who made this one as well.   Anyone with more please share.

-harry

Quote

Here's a pdf hyperlink to the 06 technical forum, you can find the Dyna engine changes on starting on page 32
http://royogren.com/Harley/06model-year.pdf
That link doesn't seem to want to work for me, so I'll post the relevant pages below.  IMHO, just changing from a spring tensioner to a hydraulic tensioner isn't necessarily the answer to the tensioner issue.  I noticed that they changed the type of chain also, which may be the more important change???

Jerry
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2006, 12:29:17 PM »

2nd attachment:
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2006, 11:37:06 PM »

Quote

DavidB,
  What were the cams you replaced, and what did you install?  Please advise.  Later--HUBBARD

These are stock cams out of an 02 bike. Were leaving it 88ci and replaceing the cams with Andrews G21 geardriven cams. Should give the bike plenty of low end torque.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2006, 02:58:59 PM »

Just my two cents on the changes to the 06 Dyna:  

Plain bearings in cam support plate: Certainly a cost savings here but it almost looks like you will have to replace the support plate to change bearings. What is the life expectancy of a plain bearing?

Upgraded oil pump: Well its not a feuling unless Feuling has gone from precision machining to castings.

Integrated oil filter housing:  Well the 88B has had this from inception but again, its a cost savings as now they won't have two seperate castings, eliminates 3 bolts and locking tabs, a few o rings and the assembly time for the whole thing.  Just don't damage that oil filter mating surface or you will have to buy half an engine case.

To me these changes and the others like an automatic primary chain adjuster (which incidently also elimanates the chain inspection cover saving more money) are just ways of building a product for less money.  By the way, today its the chain inspection cover but soon the derby cover will be gone as well and you will just pull the primary cover as an assembly to do any work.  You will just have a drain plug and a fill plug before long.  Do you supose when the derby cover is gone they will offer whole outer primary covers with your favorite design cast where the derby cover was or perhaps just a double sided tape stick on derby like the trim ring on the air cleaner housing.

Lets not forget the one piece fuel injection assembly.  This should help keep the injection system tamper proof and the EPA happy.

If the Dyna is any indicator of changes to come to the entire big twin line (and remember the Dyna was used to introduce us to the twin cam engine) then I am glad I have an 03 FLHRSEI2 where I can still open a few covers and adjust a few things, press new bearings in under those gear driven cams etc.  When I don't want to do that anymore I'll buy a Gold Wing or BMW K1200LTE but keep the Road King so I can remember how Harleys were once built.

Just my two cents....

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2006, 03:55:32 PM »

Resonates with me, Dave.   [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]  spyder
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2006, 07:37:58 PM »

I agree with you Dave.  Whether it be a scoot, car, or truck; when a mechanical change is made, it is normally not to make it better but it was cheaper to do it that way.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2006, 10:25:31 PM »

Quote
Just my two cents on the changes to the 06 Dyna:  

Plain bearings in cam support plate: Certainly a cost savings here but it almost looks like you will have to replace the support plate to change bearings. [highlight]What is the life expectancy of a plain bearing?[/highlight]

Dave,

Without high pressure oil to prevent contact with the cam journal, the life is measured in seconds.  If the new Dyna is like all other Harley's, and the oil pressure drops to nearly zilch at hot idle, I wouldn't expect those new bearings to last very long.  One hell of a lot cheaper than rollers, though.

I haven't had any first hand experience with the new Dyna engines yet, but from just what I've seen and read so far I'm not so sure I want any.  Another change that makes me cringe is the new primary drive system with the outboard sprockets at the crank and the clutch.  With the cheaper single straight roller bearing on the drive end of the crank instead of the old double tapered Timkens, folks have already had bearing failures on bikes with the normal primary drive.  Now they move the load further outboard from the bearing.  They already have a service program to change out the bearing at the trans end at 15k miles; will we see another one to change out cranks and bearings at 20k???

Harley does need to modernize some of their designs and methods, but some of the changes I've seen in the past few years leave me baffled and scratching my head in amazement.  I somehow get the feeling that either the accounting department has overthrown the engineering organization, or the engineering group forgot to hire any real engineers.  

Jerry  
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2006, 11:30:38 PM »

Quote
 They already have a service program to change out the bearing at the trans end at 15k milesJerry  
Huh?????   [smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=nervous.gif] [smiley=confused5.gif] spyder
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2006, 06:50:08 AM »

Quote
Huh?????   [smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=nervous.gif] [smiley=confused5.gif] spyder

Yup, notice of the bearing replacement comes with the owners manual and paperworrk on the new bike.  Some find it to be quite a surprise.....
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2006, 08:22:33 AM »

Quote

Yup, notice of the bearing replacement comes with the owners manual and paperworrk on the new bike.  [highlight]Some find it to be quite a surprise[/highlight].....
I'll say!  A product is only as good as it's weakest point.......why would anyone purchase a new vehicle that had a weak link designed into it and produced and sold (for a premium sum) with this inherent flaw?  I think the MOCO has outwitted itself on this one.  I'm a dyed in the wool HD enthusiast, but boy, they're making it hard to stay positive and solidly in their camp when they pull this crap.  >:(  aaaaaarrrrgh.  :-[ spyder
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2006, 08:41:59 AM »

spyder,

Try this thread  http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=cvo_gen;action=display;num=1124632407 .  I'd like to see the MoCo have to post this prominently in every dealership, and then see how many Dyna's they sell.  My understanding is that they spring it on the buyer only after they sit down to finish the paperwork.  Not only do we get to pay inflated prices for the product, but we also get to become quasi-employees (uncompensated) to do the MoCo's testing for them.  What a deal!

Jerry
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2006, 10:45:09 AM »

Quote
spyder,

Try this thread  http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=cvo_gen;action=display;num=1124632407 .  I'd like to see the MoCo have to post this prominently in every dealership, and then see how many Dyna's they sell.  My understanding is that they spring it on the buyer only after they sit down to finish the paperwork.  Not only do we get to pay inflated prices for the product, but we also get to become quasi-employees (uncompensated) to do the MoCo's testing for them.  What a deal!

Jerry

I'm with you on the HD shops being "out front" with the problem.  From a personal standpoint, I'm proud to advise that my son, who's Sales Manager for a large dealership (name witheld to avoid unsolicited advertising) requires that all new Dyna buyers be advised prior to negotiating the deal and be introducted to the Service Manager for a complete explanation of the circumstance.  Some buy and some don't, but they all seem to be appreciative of the consideration.  Last year saw most of the HD shops fall into line on MSRP...maybe this year they can work to being "out front" with the loyal customers.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2006, 07:04:18 PM »

After reading that thread on the need for 15000 mile changes on the inner primary bearing of the new Dyna all I can say is that was one heck of a spin.  If I may offer my version of a translation shown in parenthesis and BOLD Italics.  It should be noted the below comments are only an opinion and/or offered for amusement purposes and not in anyway meant to offend, demean, or slander the Harley-Davidson Motor Company nor anyone currently or previously affiliated with said company.  Further these comments are not the official position of this board nor any entity to which I may be affiliated and are probably if not actually inaccurate. <I REPEAT THE FOLLOWING IS FOR AMUSMENT PURPOSES ONLY>
Dear Customer:
 
In order to monitor the quality of our products, (so that we can see how our product will perform under ‘real world” conditions) it has become customary in recent years for Harley-Davidson to implement an Initial Care Program on any significant new product changes. (We use the Dyna line as a test bed for any significant changes and then we let you the customer be the “test pilot”.)
 
These programs are generally managed through the Company’s authorized dealers during the motorcycle’s introduction period.
 
In keeping with this practice, Harley-Davidson implemented an Initial Care Program for the all new 2006 model year Dyna motorcycles at the time of introduction. This program allows Harley-Davidson to better monitor initial repair trends (We sort of failed to do this on the twin cam Dyna in 1999 and had cam drive sprocket and retaining bolt failures, later we experienced failed cam bearings throughout the twin cam line, and now we are experiencing a high failure rate on cam chain tensioners)  on this new motorcycle family and provide rapid (before anyone files a class action law suit) resolution to customer concerns. The Initial Care Program for the 2006 Dyna motorcycles differs from the service interval information published in your owner’s manual:
 
. A lubricant change for the primary chain and transmission is now specified at 1,000 miles, and at every 5,000 miles thereafter, (so we can get a look at how well that bearing is holding up and determine a mean time between failure) and
 
 
. An inner primary bearing replacement is required at 15,000-mile intervals.
 
 
Harley-Davidson has preliminarily determined (It was a shot in the dark really because we just don’t ride’em like you do but based upon the stresses placed on this bearing by moving the compensator out we think it’s a good bet it will fail within this time unless of course you install a big bore kit, stroker crank, higher lift cams, do a head job, change pipes, install free flowing air cleaner and modify the fuel injection and then its anyone’s guess!)  the inner primary bearing on your 2006 Dyna motorcycle will require replacement at 15,000 mile intervals. The bearing will be replaced by your authorized Harley-Davidson dealer at 15,000 miles and at subsequent 15,000-mile intervals, at no cost to you. This service requirement may change over time as we make improvements (discover the need to find a better bearing or buy the patent for an outer bearing support) and monitor repair trends (FAILURES) on 2006 Dyna motorcycles. Your authorized Harley-Davidson dealer will be your best source of any updates to this requirement.
 
Please acknowledge that you have read and understood these provisions regarding your new
 
Dyna motorcycle by signing below (So that you can’t sue our @&& off later). We request that you keep your copy of this notification with
 
your Owner’s Manual so that you (and the poor chap who buys this bike after you give up on it) have it for future reference.
 
Steve Phillips
 
Vice President – Quality and Customer Service
 
Acknowledgements:
 
____________________________________
 
Customer Name (please print) Customer Signature
 
V.I.N. _______________________________ Date:
 
Dealership Name and Dealership Number Dealer Representative Signature
 
Harley-Davidson Motor Company, 3700 West Juneau Ave., PO Box 653, Milwaukee, WI 53201
eter
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2006, 09:22:39 PM »

Dave,

  Very well said! Very sad!! And very, very believable!!!

Grover
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #81 on: January 12, 2006, 07:43:04 AM »

Dave,

Very good, but you need to add one more disclaimer.  "Since failure of the primary bearing can cause immediate lock-up of the rear wheel, it is strongly recommended that you wear full leathers, boots, and helmet at all times.  It is further recommended that you not exceed 25 mph."

Jerry
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #82 on: January 12, 2006, 07:48:51 AM »

Quote
Dave,

Very good, but you need to add one more disclaimer.  "Since failure of the primary bearing can cause immediate lock-up of the rear wheel, it is strongly recommended that you wear full leathers, boots, and helmet at all times.  It is further recommended that you not exceed 25 mph."

Jerry

Hadn't really considered that very real problem, but I sure could be a financial attention getter for the MoCo.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #83 on: January 12, 2006, 08:39:14 AM »

Quote
Dave,

Very good, but you need to add one more disclaimer.  "Since failure of the primary bearing can cause immediate lock-up of the rear wheel, it is strongly recommended that you wear full leathers, boots, and helmet at all times.  It is further recommended that you not exceed 25 mph."

Jerry

Quote

Hadn't really considered that very real problem, but it sure could be a financial attention getter for the MoCo.
As someone who has experienced severe road rash in the past, and who has no desire to do it again, this was my biggest concern about this issue.  If the bearing failed and trashed the trans or engine, the MoCo would have to pay for the repairs (pretty hard to get out of it with this piece of paper entered into evidence) so it isn't so much about the financial side of the problem.  However, if the bike locks up and the rider goes down, they are opening themselves up to some major legal and publicity problems.  Makes the whole thing sound even dumber, doesn't it?  Much smarter and cheaper in the long run to just do the right thing and fix this before selling the bike to a consumer.

Jerry
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #84 on: January 15, 2006, 07:38:43 PM »

Yeah, 'er 'uh, Ladies and Gentlemen of ths Great Site!
  Went to Tilley's Birthday Party in Statesville, yesterday.  [smiley=2vrolijk_06.gif] He's 70 years young!  Brought all my failed parts home, with the exception of the intake.  It had a small dent around the seal, from the tightening of the clamp, as their first run of these were obviously too thin, in that area.  They replaced it with the "New & Improved" one, free of charge.  Next month will be two years since that Motor was built.  Now, that's service after the sale!  Pretty nice of them, I thought! The torque plates should be there Tuesday, so Ol' Maudie should come out of Her Coma the week of Jan. 23rd.  ;D Took pictures of the old parts over at OTIS's last night with my New Camera, from Santa.  Will post tomorrow, if I can figger' out how to hook it up to my 'Pewter!  ;) Later--HUBBARD    
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #85 on: January 16, 2006, 02:05:34 PM »

The following 11 Pictures reflect damaged Engine parts from Maudie's BIG MOTOR.  Other than the broken Valve Keeper, the failed parts are a direct result of runnin' the chit out of a Motor with chain driven Cams.  Preventive Maintenance saved me a PILE of Money!  Ride 'em Hard, but take care of 'em!  Later--HUBBARD  
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #86 on: January 16, 2006, 02:07:21 PM »

Cams--Junked Out
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #87 on: January 16, 2006, 02:08:20 PM »

Cams--Junked Out
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #88 on: January 16, 2006, 02:08:56 PM »

Front Tensioner
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2006, 02:09:49 PM »

Rear Tensioner--The Culprit
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #90 on: January 16, 2006, 02:12:32 PM »

Front Chain--Kinked...would not straighten out!
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #91 on: January 16, 2006, 02:13:20 PM »

Rear Chain--Kinked also
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #92 on: January 16, 2006, 02:14:07 PM »

Broken Valve Keeper--That could have been BIG!
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #93 on: January 16, 2006, 02:14:38 PM »

Oil Pump--Junked Out
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #94 on: January 16, 2006, 02:15:45 PM »

Excessive Pattern from Chain
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #95 on: January 16, 2006, 02:16:29 PM »

Replaced--Rolled smooth, but had scratches I could feel with fingernail
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 02:26:23 PM by HUBBARD »
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #96 on: January 16, 2006, 02:42:13 PM »

Hub, ugly parts.  The scary piece is the valve keeper.  Maude would have been snacking on herself soon.  Great catch having it looked at now.  What changes are being made as she goes back together?
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #97 on: January 16, 2006, 02:55:03 PM »

Yeah, 'er uh, Twolane,
  RedShift 657 Gear Drives, new valve springs, new oil pump, new rings, seals and gaskets.  Tilley is a little concerned about the clutch.  If she produces any more HP with the new cams, he doesn't think the Rivera will hold it.  Said he may have to put a "Lock-up" in it.  Later--HUBBARD
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #98 on: January 16, 2006, 03:01:30 PM »

Quote
The following 11 Pictures reflect damaged Engine parts from Maudie's BIG MOTOR.  Other than the broken Valve Keeper, the failed parts are a direct result of runnin' the chit out of a Motor with chain driven Cams.  Preventive Maintenance saved me a PILE of Money!  Ride 'em Hard, but take care of 'em!

Hubbard, what did you hear to know that you were having this many issues or was it found in a regular PM on the bike?  Was this 2 years of hard wear or did it happen more recently.  Was it caused by a loosening chain due to tensioner wear...Any thoughts on this.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #99 on: January 16, 2006, 03:03:40 PM »

Nice catch Hub.  Did you mention that you and Otis caught it on the oil pressure not coming up as quickly as it should?  I think you can bet on at least a few additional HP roaring out of ol' Maudie with the switch to the gear drives.  Goodbye clutch.....
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #100 on: January 16, 2006, 03:21:01 PM »

Yeah, 'er 'uh, BLM777
Actually, I had already scheduled Her for new Valve springs.  We noticed the 0 oil pressure, when we started it up, to load in the FEATHERLITE.  We knew something was wrong.  Cut it off, and restarted Her, and it came right up.  That didn't sound right, did it? ;) ;D  I hope my  Rivera will suffice.  I may have to get Neal to De-Tune Her a little!  You know, cut the HP back.  You believe that, don't you Brian? [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD            
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #101 on: January 16, 2006, 03:29:44 PM »

Quote
Yeah, 'er uh, Twolane,
  RedShift 657 Gear Drives, new valve springs, new oil pump, new rings, seals and gaskets.  Tilley is a little concerned about the clutch.  If she produces any more HP with the new cams, he doesn't think the Rivera will hold it.  Said he may have to put a "Lock-up" in it.  Later--HUBBARD
And this is what you're gonna be riding in that Daytona Beach cluster f  traffic????   YeeHaw!   [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]  spyder
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #102 on: January 16, 2006, 03:30:51 PM »

Yup...I'll believe that when monkeys jump out your ....., ooops, no don't beleive any HP reduction is in store for Maudie.
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #103 on: January 16, 2006, 03:45:49 PM »

Quote
And this is what you're gonna be riding in that Daytona Beach cluster f  traffic????   YeeHaw!   [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]  spyder

Yeah, 'er 'uh, spyder,
  Maudie has never graced Main Street!  You know I don't ride in traffic, if I can help it, Bro!  'Em BIG MOTORS get HOT, quick!  I like to get on 95, or 42, or 4, or anywhere I can hear 'dem RINEHART'S bellar, and put Her a$$ in the Breeze!  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] Later--HUBBARD
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #104 on: January 16, 2006, 07:32:40 PM »

Quote
Yeah, 'er 'uh, BLM777
Actually, I had already scheduled Her for new Valve springs.  We noticed the 0 oil pressure, when we started it up, to load in the FEATHERLITE.  We knew something was wrong.  Cut it off, and restarted Her, and it came right up.  That didn't sound right, did it? ;) ;D  I hope my  Rivera will suffice.  I may have to get Neal to De-Tune Her a little!  [highlight]You know, cut the HP back[/highlight].  You believe that, don't you Brian? [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD            

Go ahead do it MAKE MY DAY.

                                    OTIS ;D  
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #105 on: January 16, 2006, 07:55:21 PM »

Quote
Yeah, 'er 'uh, BLM777
Actually, I had already scheduled Her for new Valve springs.  We noticed the 0 oil pressure, when we started it up, to load in the FEATHERLITE.  We knew something was wrong.  Cut it off, and restarted Her, and it came right up.  That didn't sound right, did it? ;) ;D  I hope my  Rivera will suffice.  [highlight]I may have to get Neal to De-Tune Her a little!  You know, cut the HP back.[/highlight]You believe that, don't you Brian? [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD            

Hubbard,
I know we've never met in person, but I think I know you well enough to ask this.... Are you having some kind of bad flashback of a bad trip earlier in life? You cutting back HP! I can't even believe your fingers let you type this. I bet you get tarpal tunnel syndrome from typing something like that, you'd better be careful.  :)

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]
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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #106 on: January 16, 2006, 07:59:10 PM »

Quote

Hubbard, what did you hear to know that you were having this many issues or was it found in a regular PM on the bike?  Was this 2 years of hard wear or did it happen more recently.  Was it caused by a loosening chain due to tensioner wear...Any thoughts on this.

Yeah, 'er 'uh, fatboyse2,
  I didn't hear a thing!  I was taking Her in for PM check, and to replace my valvesprings.  I had hit the Rev-Limitier more than a few times, and that's harder on valve springs than anything, IMO.  It would have been 2 years next month, and yes, I have abused that Motor.  I guess I would have to relate the failure to my MODS, and really runnin' the chit out of it, but the damage done is a direct result of the tensioner failure, absent the broken Valve Keeper.  Later--HUBBARD  
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 08:02:03 PM by HUBBARD »
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HUBBARD

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #107 on: January 16, 2006, 08:16:08 PM »

Quote

Go ahead do it MAKE MY DAY.

                                    OTIS ;D  

Yeah, 'er 'uh, OTIS,
  You know I was just blowin', Man!  Let's say I would cut it back to, lets say, 110 HP.  Then, we should run about even, up to around 125-30 mph, but then you'd start to gain on me, because of the areodynamics.  At least I'll admit what's in my Motor.  Why don't you fess up, and tell these fine people how you get 110 HP out of a STOCK '01 SERG, with a "little" Head Work?  Curious Minds want to know!  Please advise.  Later--HUBBARD          
  
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2012 FLHTCUSE7  (Electric Orange/Black)  Built Motor (124), D&D "Borzilla" Exhaust, Tilley/K&N Air Induction,
"National President"-"Hillbilly Rocket Riders", MC, Mother Chapter, WV
"National President"-"W.H.O.R.E", TPT, WV Chapter

Grover

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #108 on: January 16, 2006, 08:23:56 PM »

Quote

Yeah, 'er 'uh, OTIS,
  Why don't you fess up, and tell these fine people how you get 110 HP out of a STOCK '01 SERG, with a "little" Head Work?  Curious Minds want to know!  Please advise.  Later--HUBBARD          
  
Yeah OTIS!! Fess up! HUBBARD just put you on the spot [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Now come clean and share your work with others >:(

Spread the word for ALL to read ;D

Take Care,

Grover
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Grover

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #109 on: January 16, 2006, 08:30:03 PM »

HUBBARD-

  Darnitt! You don't need any more P-O-W-E-R!! Give us Lil fellas a chance to keep up.

  By the way, congrats on catching Ole Maudi before she had a nervous breakdown. Hope all the build goes well.
  Have a damn good time in Daytona!  WFO [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Take Care,

Grover
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HUBBARD

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #110 on: January 16, 2006, 08:35:16 PM »

Yeah, 'er 'uh, Grover,
  Thanks, Man.  Ain't you goin' to Daytona?  Please advise.  And OTIS ain't gonna' fess up!  He's just gonna' grin like a 'possum eatin chit, like he always does, when somebody asks him what he's done to that Motor!  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD  
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2012 FLHTCUSE7  (Electric Orange/Black)  Built Motor (124), D&D "Borzilla" Exhaust, Tilley/K&N Air Induction,
"National President"-"Hillbilly Rocket Riders", MC, Mother Chapter, WV
"National President"-"W.H.O.R.E", TPT, WV Chapter

fatboyse2

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #111 on: January 16, 2006, 08:41:57 PM »

Quote
Yeah, 'er 'uh, fatboyse2,
  I didn't hear a thing!  I was taking Her in for PM check, and to replace my valvesprings.  I had hit the Rev-Limitier more than a few times, and that's harder on valve springs than anything, IMO.  It would have been 2 years next month, and yes, I have abused that Motor.  I guess I would have to relate the failure to my MODS, and really runnin' the chit out of it, but the damage done is a direct result of the tensioner failure, absent the broken Valve Keeper.  Later--HUBBARD  

Glad to hear you caught this before it got real expensive.  Some good things to say about doing maintenance and inspections regularly especially if you like to lean on it regularly [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Did I see somewhere you are looking to add Nitrous to your volitile mix.  Forget keeping up with you on the road, with that speed you'll be a couple beers up on everyone[smiley=drink.gif]cause you're getting to the next pitstop a half hour before the rest [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]
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HUBBARD

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #112 on: January 16, 2006, 08:50:55 PM »

Yeah, 'er 'uh, fatboyse2,
  No NOS for me!  I'm too crazy to have that chit strapped to my butt!  No moderation!  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 08:51:17 PM by HUBBARD »
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2012 FLHTCUSE7  (Electric Orange/Black)  Built Motor (124), D&D "Borzilla" Exhaust, Tilley/K&N Air Induction,
"National President"-"Hillbilly Rocket Riders", MC, Mother Chapter, WV
"National President"-"W.H.O.R.E", TPT, WV Chapter

HUBBARD

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #113 on: January 16, 2006, 08:56:21 PM »

Quote

Hubbard,
I know we've never met in person, but I think I know you well enough to ask this.... Are you having some kind of bad flashback of a bad trip earlier in life? You cutting back HP! I can't even believe your fingers let you type this. I bet you get tarpal tunnel syndrome from typing something like that, you'd better be careful.  :)

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

Yeah, 'er 'uh, Fire00d,
  OK.  I lied.  Does that mean I don't get carpal tunnel, since I fessed up?  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] We'll meet up, someday.  You goin' to Daytona, or Myrtle, or Maggie Valley, this year?  Please advise.  Later--HUBBARD
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2012 FLHTCUSE7  (Electric Orange/Black)  Built Motor (124), D&D "Borzilla" Exhaust, Tilley/K&N Air Induction,
"National President"-"Hillbilly Rocket Riders", MC, Mother Chapter, WV
"National President"-"W.H.O.R.E", TPT, WV Chapter

Grover

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #114 on: January 16, 2006, 08:57:43 PM »

Quote
Yeah, 'er 'uh, Grover,
  Thanks, Man.  Ain't you goin' to Daytona?  Please advise.  And OTIS ain't gonna' fess up!  He's just gonna' grin like a 'possum eatin chit, like he always does, when somebody asks him what he's done to that Motor!  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD  
Not this year. I'll be gettin married in the spring. I know I'm  [smiley=zstupid.gif] So Daytona will have to wait 'til next year. But we'll be doing Cripple Creek & Maggie Valley this year.
Tell that 'possum OTIS to enjoy his dinner [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]and clean his plate!!

Take Care,

Grover

P.S. I'll bring a 6' tow strap to Maggie Valley...hook it to Ole Maudies forks and to my backrest...then you'll be able to read my plate.
WFO [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] ;D  
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Twolanerider

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #115 on: January 16, 2006, 09:01:46 PM »

Quote
P.S. I'll bring a 6' tow strap to Maggie Valley...hook it to Ole Maudies forks and to my backrest...then you'll be able to read my plate.
WFO [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] ;D  

Ooooooh, that was pretty good.  Grover has some verbal b*tch slapping skills going on.  

Um, ok......  Next !   [smiley=banana.gif] [smiley=jalapeno.gif]
« Last Edit: January 16, 2006, 09:02:12 PM by twolanerider »
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Grover

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #116 on: January 16, 2006, 09:06:56 PM »

It's all in good HUMOR...Just for laughs...Nothing personal...Just good clean fun... [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Kinda like Ole Maudie tryin to chase me down  [smiley=nervous.gif];D
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HUBBARD

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #117 on: January 16, 2006, 09:12:30 PM »

Quote
Not this year. I'll be gettin married in the spring. I know I'm  [smiley=zstupid.gif] So Daytona will have to wait 'til next year. But we'll be doing Cripple Creek & Maggie Valley this year.
Tell that 'possum OTIS to enjoy his dinner [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]and clean his plate!!

Take Care,

Grover

P.S. I'll bring a 6' tow strap to Maggie Valley...hook it to Ole Maudies forks and to my backrest...then you'll be able to read my plate.
WFO [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] ;D  

Yeah, that'll be good, Grover.  Never thought of that "towing" thing.  OTIS was gettin' tired of having to go get fuel for Ol' Maudie, all the time.  She don't get but about 15-20 miles to the gallon, with that "BIG MOTOR", and all.  And you're sure, you don't mind to help a Brother out?  I'd help you, if you ran out of gas.  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD
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2012 FLHTCUSE7  (Electric Orange/Black)  Built Motor (124), D&D "Borzilla" Exhaust, Tilley/K&N Air Induction,
"National President"-"Hillbilly Rocket Riders", MC, Mother Chapter, WV
"National President"-"W.H.O.R.E", TPT, WV Chapter

Fired00d

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Re: This is my cam tensioner and bearings!
« Reply #118 on: January 16, 2006, 10:10:27 PM »

Quote

Yeah, 'er 'uh, Fire00d,
  OK.  I lied.  Does that mean I don't get carpal tunnel, since I fessed up?  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] We'll meet up, someday.  You goin' to Daytona, or Myrtle, or Maggie Valley, this year?  Please advise.  Later--HUBBARD

Hubbard,
Daytona - No, not making that this year.

Myrtle - That is the plan at this time. (Have to work May 14, and planning on heading down either 16th or 17th for the rest of the week)

Maggie Valley - Still working on that.

But hell West "By God" Virginia state line ain't but about an hour or so away from me, so we may meet even before any of these major events.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
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