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[chappy]

Howdy Fellow CVO Members,

I took another tumble last evening as I turned in the bathroom to exit I fell face down. I really don't remember falling but strangely I heard the thud. Sue heard it too and luckily I landed on the floor without hitting the sink or tub and still left room for the door to be opened. Sue helped me get into my recliner and in a short time helped me get into bed. I slept pretty good and now I'm home from attending a 40th annv for Jerry and Barbra. Funny how 40 years seem like such a long time, but they only have Sue and I beat by 4 years. lol

Seeking help!!  I have asked my friends and family on the Heritage Springer forum and thought I'd ask my friends and family here too.
I'm pretty weak so I'm not sure if I can do it but I am at least going to give it my best shot with Small Claims Court over the incredible labor over charge let alone that the work is of such poor quality I have every reason to believe it needs to be redone in it intirety. I've watched Judge Judy and Judge Joe Brown enough to know that I'll need all my ducks in a row.

Apples to Apples! What I mean is, I must be absolutely correct in what it is that takes 4 to 6 hours. At this point I am pretty sure I understand but, lol, I have felt that way before only to find later that I was wrong. So it's a safe bet that I could possibly be wrong with this, as far as what a Judge will Rule, although I don't think so.

Now, according to the time sheet I was given by the Granite State H-D service manager, it took the H-D mechanic 2.93 hours to completely disassemble my Heritage Springer frontend. This means that the rigid fork was actually in hand and the triple tree was completely off the neck of the bike frame. This pretty much lines up with 4 to 6 hours for the complete job because 2.93 hours is roughly half of the higher end of the estimated 4 to 6 hours labor charge given to me by other local H-D shops.
Point in question: How can it possibly take a H-D mechanic 13.86 hours to reassemble the same parts that took the same H-D mechanic only 2.93 hours to disassemble?

I was charged $1,342.15 for 15.79 hours for a 4 to 6 hour frontend job and sadly it was done with such poor quality it can not be ridden and most likely needs to be redone in it's enterety. Although Granite State H-D said they'd repair (re-repair) my bike, I removed it from that shop. I had no reason to believe that the proper repair would be done in a timely manner or meet Manufacturer Spec's since the new shop mechanic doesn't even have the tools needed to reassemble and adjust a springer frontend to begin with.

I hired Granite State H-D in good faith to perform work on my Heritage Springer frontend during the winter storage and paid for the new shock absober as well.
There were NO other frontend parts replaced. For the purpose of clarity, let the below senario mean, (Labor Only)!!

Model: 1997 heritage Springer
note: my bike has nearly 70,000 miles and has never had any frontend work prior to this.

1) Disassemble entire springer front end suspension including head/steering bearings and inspect all parts. Labor Only!


2) Reassemble entire springer front end suspension including head/steering bearings. Labor Only!


3) Any and all worn or broken parts replaced with (NEW) parts with any additional labor charges are extra, and not included in this (Labor Only) scenario.

If you guys would be willing to get a written estimate for the work [1,2,3] listed above and send it to me I could add it to my evidence and hopefully will help me be reimbursed for the bogus charge.

A written estimate might be obtained in person or with a phone call to your dealer service dept. and ask for the quote to be sent to you. Anyway, It would be great if you would help me in this way.

Not sure how to ask more members here for help with this mater so if you would ask your circle of Harley friends I would appreciate it greatly.

Sincerely your friend
Sam/chappy

[StevesCVO]

I can see 3 hrs for disassembly and maybe 4-6 for reassembly depending on what was done and what adjustments neede to be made. 16 hrs labor is totally out there. Doesn't HD have a book labor guide? I used to do auto repair and we always charged flat rate labor and the mechanics got paid for that amount of hrs. If a 4 hr job was done in 3 you made money, if you screwed around and took 8 you still only got paid for 4. Maybe someone else here that has worked at a dealership can answer this question. Also did they give you a written estimate when you dropped the bike off? They should have to stick by that estimate unless other work was needed and that work would have to be authorized by you before thay could perform it.

[kb]

Happy Sunday Sam.
   
       You may want to find someone with a flat rate manuel and see if that is stated that it is how they bill shop time.
   Almost two days of labor seems like a lot of time to me. I have seen Ford techs remove rebuild and reinstall diesel engines on Super Duty trucks in that amount of time. I think you have a case for Judge Judy, We also want and need you to beat the battle with the big C,above anything. May God bless you, heal you,and keep you well. kb

[chappy]

I can see 3 hrs for disassembly and maybe 4-6 for reassembly depending on what was done and what adjustments neede to be made. 16 hrs labor is totally out there. Doesn't HD have a book labor guide? I used to do auto repair and we always charged flat rate labor and the mechanics got paid for that amount of hrs. If a 4 hr job was done in 3 you made money, if you screwed around and took 8 you still only got paid for 4. Maybe someone else here that has worked at a dealership can answer this question. Also did they give you a written estimate when you dropped the bike off? They should have to stick by that estimate unless other work was needed and that work would have to be authorized by you before thay could perform it.

Hi Steve,
I to understand the uses of the repair flat rate book. It is a great estimating tool as well.
I don't know that H-D shops have to use the rate book as a written in stone document, but still, it's a great guide.
I have been told by other H-D shops in my area that it is a 4 to 6 hour job total and the shops hourly labor rates vary within about 15. dollars and Granite State is the highes among them.
Far as a written quote, nope, didn't get on. I have had work done at this shop for years and always was treated fairly and in a timly fashin. Frankly, I didn't even think I needed a written quote from a trusted Harley dealer. Never again!!
However, I did have the stipulation that if additional work was needed chech with me first.

Thanks for your input
Sam/chappy 

[chappy]

Happy Sunday Sam.
   
       You may want to find someone with a flat rate manuel and see if that is stated that it is how they bill shop time.
   Almost two days of labor seems like a lot of time to me. I have seen Ford techs remove rebuild and reinstall diesel engines on Super Duty trucks in that amount of time. I think you have a case for Judge Judy, We also want and need you to beat the battle with the big C,above anything. May God bless you, heal you,and keep you well. kb

I now have the Flat Rate Repair Manual for Softtail Models including Springer Models.
It shows that 4 to 6 hours for this job is within the parimeter of flat rate estimate.

Sometimes life tosses you into a more than one front battlefield.
I've never been one to curl up and lay in the corner.

Thanks for your encouragement kb
your friend
Sam/chappy

[StevesCVO]

Sam,
You have a legitimate complaint here. You might go ahead and get written estimates from other dealerships in your area and show them to the dealer who did the work and see if you can work something out. They will probably come in handy if you end up having to take them to court. I know I would be pissed if they charged me that and still didn't have my bike fixed. I'd be talking to everyone including the GM there and if that didn't get results start calling HD CS if I had to talk to everyone up the food chain including Willie G. I have never had a single problem with the service dept. hre at the local dealer. They have always treated me right and stuck to the estimates given to me. I wish you the best of luck in getting this resolved.

[chappy]

Sam,
You have a legitimate complaint here. You might go ahead and get written estimates from other dealerships in your area and show them to the dealer who did the work and see if you can work something out. They will probably come in handy if you end up having to take them to court. I know I would be pissed if they charged me that and still didn't have my bike fixed. I'd be talking to everyone including the GM there and if that didn't get results start calling HD CS if I had to talk to everyone up the food chain including Willie G. I have never had a single problem with the service dept. hre at the local dealer. They have always treated me right and stuck to the estimates given to me. I wish you the best of luck in getting this resolved.

Part 1 of 2

Hello Steve,

Yupper, legitimate complaint for sure!
Although, let me be clear here, my complaint is smack on Granite State Harley and I am not in anyway complaining about any other HD shop I’ve ever done business with.

Here’s my best attempt to reply to the points you brought up above.

First off, don’t forget, Granite State Harley attempted to Pass-Off my bike to me as, “Job Complete and Road Worthy” by the Dealer when it clearly was not. I noticed it wasn’t right, the Service Manager, the H-D Mechanic as well as a handful of other staff at the shop agreed. Both the Service Manager and H-D Mechanic stated they would fix my bike right. That’s when I found out that neither the Mechanic nor the Shop had the tools necessary to accomplish the Springer Frontend job correctly and within Factory Spec’s. The Service Manager told me, “The tools needed for this job would be purchased by either the shop or the H-D Mechanic ASAP.” I checked back a few times and then met with a Granite State Harley Dealership owner, meanwhile, my bike was still at the shop untouched by any staff. At the meeting behind closed doors with the owner and Service Manager, the owner said, “Give me a day.” Long story short, eleven days later is when I had an AAA Tow Truck pickup my bike from Granite State Harley and deliver it to my home. To this day I have not heard a peep from that Owner, even though she had several times walked closely enough to speak to me while I was at her shop. I haven’t received a phone call or e-message from her either. I really think any further attempts to reason with her while holding the hope that something could be worked out concerning this issue is a colossal waste of my time and energy. I am convinced that court is my next line of defense.

I tried to contact a Regional Manager with no luck whatsoever. I did call the Harley-Davidson Customer Service Department and explained the whole thing. To my surprise, the total extent offered on my behalf was a phone call to Granite State Harley. With such a call only expressing that an unhappy customer had made a complaint to H-D Customer Service. I said, “No Thanks, not while my bike is still at Granite State Harley!” That’s another of the many reasons I removed my bike from Granite State Harley. I asked to speak to he Supervisor; she told that wouldn’t be the case. It was during this same long conversation with the H-D MOCO CS Representative that I found out that HOG (Harley Owners Group) membership would not provide a tow from a dealer, only to a dealer. I found that tidbit of info to be another in line of unwanted jokes. Far as Willy goes!  lol  Do you have his number?  lol  
Prior to this issue, I have only asked for a written estimate from a Harley shop once. The only reason then was because Insurance Co required it before they would process a Claim after I was rear ended at a traffic light. I have had repairs done at Harley Shops all around the country, in more States than I can remember on all 5 of the Harleys I have owned spanning back to my first H-D (a 1972 XLCH) to now. These repairs include those with appointments as well as breakdowns while on Road Trips. More times than I can recall I had to rely on Tow Service and NEVER have I EVER been mistreated and beat-up on labor such as I have in the case of my local dealer, Granite State Harley. Granite State Harley brings shame and question to the otherwise reliable service I have enjoyed for decades.  


Part 1 0f 2

[chappy]

Part 2 of 2

Concerning "Labor Only", In a nutshell,   (I have the job time worksheet from the dealership)! I was charged 2.92 hours to completely disassemble my frontend.
Please understand, my rigid fork was literally "in hand" as one singular Frontend piece, absolutely separate from every other Springer Frontend piece and/or part including the separated from the H-D frame. Simple fact: 2.93 hours labor for this level of Springer Frontend disassembly falls within the upper end of a Ballpark Estimate given by  other of my local Dealers. Easy conclusion; especially considering that 6 hours labor is the upper end of a Ballpark Estimate for complete and total Springer Frontend disassembly and reassembly.
Now, with that in mind, let me show you the labor numbers again while keeping in mind that the time used (2.93 hours) for disassembly is roughly the same as the time needed ( ½ of the 4-6 hours) or (2-3 hours) for reassembly. Or another way to say this is: the time used for disassembly (2.93 hours) is roughly half of the time needed (4 –6 hours) for disassembly and reassembly together.
Fact: Granite State Harley-Davidson charge me 439% (MORE) Hours of Labor to Reassemble my Springer Frontend (THAN) the Hours of Labor they charged me to Disassemble my Springer Frontend!
Fact: I was charged 15.86 hours labor at the hourly rate of $85.00 equaling $1,342.15.
In all fairness, as a regular customer I expected to be charged the fair and rated 4-6 hours of labor for this job not 15.86 hours of labor. Using the high end of 6 hours labor and the high cost of $85.00 per hour, the total would have been $510.00 USD and not the hi-way rubbery of $1,342.15.

The H-D shop that is going to redo the Springer Frontend for me charges only $72.00 per hour. This will reflect a savings of $13.00 per hour right off the bat. Since I find it impossible to trust the frontend work done at Granite State Harley I find it necessary to replace all the parts that would/should have been replaced during such a frontend job as I had done, especially after nearly 70,000 miles. These parts only come to the total sum of $147.05. Now tell me, if you had your Springer Frontend completely disassembled, wouldn’t you have been more than willing to spend the meager $147.05 and have a completely rebuilt Springer Frontend?

The sad truth here is, if the frontend had been reassembled correctly and was truly road worthy, I would probably never have questioned their greedy and gross 439% over charge on the reassembly labor.

Thanks for your input SteveCVO
Sam/chappy.
  

[MIKEYTEE]

Sam,
I hate hearing about the problems you are  going through with your springer! I would ask the new dealer that is repairing the problem to document everything they do and why they had to do it. Pictures would also be nice to have. Even if it cost a few dollars extra.
Having that documentation in hand will help your case.
I hope you are over the falling and your next checkup is good.
God bless my friend,
Mike
 

[chappy]

Hello my Friend,
You have given sound advice that I intend to follow.
Hard to believe that all the parts came to less than $150.00 and Granite State Harley didn'y replce them even while all my parts were on the workbench. Man, I just find it hard to believe!
I'll let you know when I get the tesults of tomorrows Dr.'s visit and CT-scan.
your friend
Sam

[StevesCVO]

I can understand your frustration with the dealer. They definately should have at least changed the parts if they were going to screw you that bad. And if they didn't have the tools to do the job they should never had accepted it. I have heard the service guys at the local dealer tell people they didn't have the tools to work on an older bike and recommend a local indy shop who did good work and could do the job. Mikey has some good advice and I hope it helps your case. Hopefully if you have to go to court you can get some satisfaction in at least getting the money back for the overcharged hours. After hearing this I wouldn't even buy a t-shirt from them.

[Chains]

I thought it might be nice if we all posted our dissatisfaction with how they treated Sam on their Facebook page, http://www.facebook.com/granitestateharley  never know may help.

Also their add on the internet does not lead to truth in advertising. 

"Our mission is to provide superior products and service to all of our customers at Granite State Harley-Davidson"

What do you think

[chappy]

I can understand your frustration with the dealer. They definately should have at least changed the parts if they were going to screw you that bad. And if they didn't have the tools to do the job they should never had accepted it. I have heard the service guys at the local dealer tell people they didn't have the tools to work on an older bike and recommend a local indy shop who did good work and could do the job. Mikey has some good advice and I hope it helps your case. Hopefully if you have to go to court you can get some satisfaction in at least getting the money back for the overcharged hours. After hearing this I wouldn't even buy a t-shirt from them.

Hi SteveCVO,

By the sounds of it, you have a dealer that seems to have the customer's best interest in mind. I'd say your shop is a keeper. I believe Granite State at least used to be that way, but frankly, I don't have the energy to look up old slips and check them over.

Funny thing, I have a few of their Tee's and don't really want to wear them. lol They'll pobably just find their way to the bottom on my drawer.  lol

Your friend
Sam/chappy

[chappy]

I thought it might be nice if we all posted our dissatisfaction with how they treated Sam on their Facebook page, http://www.facebook.com/granitestateharley  never know may help.

Also their add on the internet does not lead to truth in advertising. 

"Our mission is to provide superior products and service to all of our customers at Granite State Harley-Davidson"

What do you think

Hi Chains,  I'm not an expert on facebook, but, Funny thing!!  It seems you can't read any posts on Granite State Harley Facebook unless you are a "Friend". I'm not sure, does this also mean that Granite State Harley can edit their facebook page incoming posts as well. That would be one way to have only warm and fuzzy nice posts on a business facebook page. If this is so, how could any business facebook page be trusted?  Maybe the joke is once again on the consumer.  lol

your friend
Sam

[Chains]

Hi Chains,  I'm not an expert on facebook, but, Funny thing!!  It seems you can't read any posts on Granite State Harley Facebook unless you are a "Friend". I'm not sure, does this also mean that Granite State Harley can edit their facebook page incoming posts as well. That would be one way to have only warm and fuzzy nice posts on a business facebook page. If this is so, how could any business facebook page be trusted?  Maybe the joke is once again on the consumer.  lol

your friend
Sam

Sam,

I just figured that out, if they accept you as a friend and you bitch them out they just throw your a$$ off their page.  That sucks, no way to show dissatisfaction.  I sent them a friend reply anyway, soon as they accept I will nail them.  Sure it won't be on long but at least I can give them hell.  If they get directed to the CVO site and see your psts they can't delete them, only the person posting or the guys alllowed toi by Naitram.

I just have to try it after the screwing they gave you.

Hope you get to feeling better soon.