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[DavidB]

Does anyone here have any experience with tuning a 2010 using the new HD tuner ?
Im trying to get my head wrapped around  Lambda tuning on the new bikes.
 

Thanks, Dave
 

[eddfive]

Yes, I have done a few.  You can still use AFR on the newest SEST.  Lambda is nothing magical as it is a formula (Observed AFR/Stoich = Lambda or Lambda * Stoich =  AFR) with AFR as long as you know the Stoich of the gas you are tuning. Gas with Ethanol yields a different Stoich value and this is the questionable part.  How consistent is the gas coming out of the pump with its percentage of Ethanol??  What has changed is the way you have to run the bike on the dyno to get the majority of the RPM/MAP cells in the VE tables versus RPM/TPS the old way.  The bikes I have tuned have turned out very well and I can not really tell a difference between the final dyno numbers and the way the bike feels on the rode.(RPM/TPS vs RPM/MAP)

[Doc 1]

Does anyone here have any experience with tuning a 2010 using the new HD tuner ?
Im trying to get my head wrapped around  Lambda tuning on the new bikes.
 

Thanks, Dave
 

Lambda is just another way of reading AFR.  Stoichiometric for straight gas has a value of 14.68 AFR, Stoich for E10 fuel has a value of 14.27 AFR, Alcohol has a Stoichiometric value of 6.1 AFR, ect.  The Stoichiometric  value for all fuels are rated as 1.00 in a Lambda based system….ie. the lambda value for an AFR of 14.68 (which is stoich for gas) is rated at 1.00, for E10 Fuel lambda 1.00 equals a 14.27 AFR, and for Alcohol AFR of 6.1 lambda again rates that as 1.00…..so Stoich for all these fuels are rated as 1.00 in lambda.
So if 1.00 is stoichiometric any lambda value lower than 1.00 is recognized as a richer mixture and any value higher than 1.00 is recognized as leaner…for an example; a lambda value of .981 would be the same as 14.2:1 AFR, a lambda value of .921 would equal 13.5:1 AFR, and a lambda value of 1.025 would equal an AFR of 15.05:1.  Again it’s just another way of rating AFR values that the Auto industry has been using for many years already.
One of the positive things about the lambda system is we have a much better control of the fuel delivery throughout the fuel table. The Lambda system also eliminates the Closed Loop Bias fuel trim table because we can enter different lambda values from leaner to richer from the left side of the fuel table to the right side of the fuel table…ie. We can trim the closed loop area with the lambda fuel values….each cell can be made different or made all the same….we have a lot more control of the fuel delivery.
Another positive factor with this system is the auto industry is working on a sensor that can determine what kind of fuel you put in your gas tank…is it E10 or E85 or the good gas. This sensor will sit in the gas tank and read the Ethanol content then report that to the ECM. If the ECM knows what fuel it has and all fuel values are the same in the lambda system then the injectors can stay open longer or close sooner to deliver the correct volume of fuel need to meet your request on the fuel table. Now the auto industry yhas been working on this for a while now and the results are not encouraging to say the least but hopefully they will break through soon and the lambda system will truly be a great thing. As of now, when you tune, you have to know what fuel you have in the bike which is almost impossible unless you poured it in your self.
Does this make it harder to tune…..NO, it’s just going to be rough to get our heads wrapped around the fact that AFR is now measured differently than we are used to seeing it .TTS has made a Lambda to AFR to Stoichiometric calculator  in the tool bar of the MasterTune software for our convienince….this will help the learning curve not to hurt our brains too much.
I read on another forum that some one said it takes a lambda 02 sensor to read the lambda values…..gentlemen the 02 sensors you have been using from day one are a lambda sensors whether is a wide band, narrow band or a narrow band switching device….they are all lambda sensors in our industry. 
One other positive to the Lambda system, the VE tables are no longer using Throttle Position and RPM for tuning. The Lambda VE tables are measured in kPa and RPM. This will help greatly for those who tune at higher altitudes and be more accurate in converting to a fuel table in the same kPa, RPM break points. If you look at a 009 level calibration from TTS you will find the VE tables are smaller and the Fuel and Timing tables are much larger for a more precise tune.
Doc

[DavidB]

Thanks Doc,

   I can tell you earned the name .
Just when I learned to fix a Bendix carb
 , they went with rocket science .

[Doc 1]

Yes, I have done a few.  You can still use AFR on the newest SEST.  Lambda is nothing magical as it is a formula (Observed AFR/Stoich = Lambda or Lambda * Stoich =  AFR) with AFR as long as you know the Stoich of the gas you are tuning. Gas with Ethanol yields a different Stoich value and this is the questionable part.  How consistent is the gas coming out of the pump with its percentage of Ethanol??  What has changed is the way you have to run the bike on the dyno to get the majority of the RPM/MAP cells in the VE tables versus RPM/TPS the old way.  The bikes I have tuned have turned out very well and I can not really tell a difference between the final dyno numbers and the way the bike feels on the rode.(RPM/TPS vs RPM/MAP)

Tuning with the so called Smart Tune you need to add .5 to your AFR table or the bike will be running too lean.
Doc

[DavidB]

Would that be .5 to every cell ?

[eddfive]

Smart Tune or the latest SEST has a feature for setting the Stoich of the fuel.  They give you a 10% ethanol option and a 26% Ethanol option.  The issue with this is how consistent is the Ethanol mixture in the gas where you live and even worse across country when touring.  Most gas pumps in Dallas say "may contain up to 10% ethanol", does not give the exact percentage.  For a safety factor use the 10% Ethanol setting in the AFR table and Smart Tune the VE tables with the 10% ethanol option.  You can "toggle" the AFR table back and forth between 14.6 and 10% Ethanol and see how much fuel is being added in either AFR mode or Lambda mode.  Once your VE tables are calibrated then the AFR table will be accurately used by the ECU to deliever fuel based on RPM/MAP.  If the VE tables are not calibrated then the fuel delivery will not be accurate.  The fastest way and most complete way to accomplish the VE calibration would be on a dyno.  Send me a PM if you have any questions.

[DavidB]

Thanks for the info Edd.

[Doc 1]

Smart Tune or the latest SEST has a feature for setting the Stoich of the fuel.  They give you a 10% ethanol option and a 26% Ethanol option.  The issue with this is how consistent is the Ethanol mixture in the gas where you live and even worse across country when touring.  Most gas pumps in Dallas say "may contain up to 10% ethanol", does not give the exact percentage.  For a safety factor use the 10% Ethanol setting in the AFR table and Smart Tune the VE tables with the 10% ethanol option.  You can "toggle" the AFR table back and forth between 14.6 and 10% Ethanol and see how much fuel is being added in either AFR mode or Lambda mode.  Once your VE tables are calibrated then the AFR table will be accurately used by the ECU to deliever fuel based on RPM/MAP.  If the VE tables are not calibrated then the fuel delivery will not be accurate.  The fastest way and most complete way to accomplish the VE calibration would be on a dyno.  Send me a PM if you have any questions.

I disagee Ed.....the toggling between the E10 and other fuel tables on the SEST does NOT change the afr like you think it is....it's only a reference to look at.
Bottom line is the Smart Tune does tune to a very lean afr and you need to add .5 to the VE tables or richen the LAMBDA fuel table....this is not my opinion, this comes directly from the MoCo....
Doc

[DavidB]

So ya add .5 to the base calibration in each cell of the ve tables on the stock map before you start tuning ?

[eddfive]

I have tuned quite a few bikes with the new SEST and in the AFR Table only, you can toggle between 14.6; E10; E26; when you do this it will change every value in the AFR Table by an offset amount.  I do not think the offset amount is 100% correct but it does offset.  This does not change the values in the VE table as you have to calibrate the VE table values to whatever you set the AFR Table to.  This can be any safe value for calibration, I usually do 13.2.  When I am done with the VE table tuning, I put the AFR table back to the values I want in this table(open loop) and run the bike and look at the live AFR values to make sure the bike is going to the AFR value that I have programmed into the AFR Table. If the live AFR Table values and programmed AFR Table values are not really close then I need to spend more time on the VE table to get it calibrated.  I do all of this in open loop with my calibrated wide band sensors.  The final flash after VE and timing is done is back to closed loop in the cruise area with the OEM sensors. I do not Smart Tune with the OEM sensors.  I am not going to get into a debate about OEM narrow bands and aftermarket wide bands, my methods have worked very well.  The only thing I have changed for the 2010 bikes is the procedure I use on the dyno to get the data needed to calibrate the VE tables correctly now that it is based on RPM/MAP.  The bottom line is I have not had any complaints.

[eddfive]

DavidB,

  Are you going to Smart Tune your bike or have it dyno tuned?

[Doc 1]

I have tuned quite a few bikes with the new SEST and in the AFR Table only, you can toggle between 14.6; E10; E26; when you do this it will change every value in the AFR Table by an offset amount.  I do not think the offset amount is 100% correct but it does offset.  This does not change the values in the VE table as you have to calibrate the VE table values to whatever you set the AFR Table to.  This can be any safe value for calibration, I usually do 13.2.  When I am done with the VE table tuning, I put the AFR table back to the values I want in this table(open loop) and run the bike and look at the live AFR values to make sure the bike is going to the AFR value that I have programmed into the AFR Table. If the live AFR Table values and programmed AFR Table values are not really close then I need to spend more time on the VE table to get it calibrated.  I do all of this in open loop with my calibrated wide band sensors.  The final flash after VE and timing is done is back to closed loop in the cruise area with the OEM sensors. I do not Smart Tune with the OEM sensors.  I am not going to get into a debate about OEM narrow bands and aftermarket wide bands, my methods have worked very well.  The only thing I have changed for the 2010 bikes is the procedure I use on the dyno to get the data needed to calibrate the VE tables correctly now that it is based on RPM/MAP.  The bottom line is I have not had any complaints.

So you are saying you do not Smart tune.....which in my opinion is a good decision because like I said Smart Tune does not do a good job. If your using your wide bands to synch. the VE tables you are doing fine but I would like to know how you hold your kPa to get the afr information in the VE tables with the 009 calibrations.

[Doc 1]

So ya add .5 to the base calibration in each cell of the ve tables on the stock map before you start tuning ?

No Dave....if you added .5 to the VE tables first the Smart Tune would pull it back out.....add the extra fuel when your all done tuning.
Doc

[eddfive]

I have a diagnostic tool that allows me to capture AFR,MAP,TPS for each cylinder RPM point.  It is then output in a .TXT file.  I have an Excel Macro that takes this raw data text file and does it's calculations/manipulations and presents the data in RPM/MAP to match SEST and Direct Link (for 2010 baggers).  I also have an Excel Macro that works with TTS as well since TTS has added some columns and is purely Lambda on the 2010 baggers.  The Macro automatically calculates and does the correction for the new VE table from the exisiting VE table.  I have spent a lot of time developing this stuff and it has worked out very well for me on the dyno.  It has worked out especially well on the 2010 model bikes and the 009 calibrations.  As I said earlier the SEST tunes I have done on the 2010 model year bikes have turned out well.  The dyno has to be run a little differently to get the kPa information in each cell but it does work.  The key is accurate data collection.  I already had developed and used similar Excel stuff for the earliers bikes that use RPM/TPS.