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[jesse111]

Now that I've installed the killer Fullsac X-pipe (B), HD Ventilator, Jack Pot Dyno Tuned Mufflers and the TTS Mastertune, I've decided to go with Doc's performance Tuning for the Dyno.

Doc is a TTS Mastertune trainer and his training program is endorsed by TTS Inc. He was also one of the Beta testers for the TTS mastertune so he knows the system inside and out. Talking with Doc only takes a few minutes to discern he knows what he's doing. He's without question a professional tuner. These are the qualifications, as well as his proximity to me, that led me to choose him.

Before I meet with Doc for the tune, I'll first install Andrews .54 cams. Cams were not part of my original gear list but Doc has helped me to appreciate the advantages. I might mention that he is not doing the cam install so his advice was not motivated by sales. (I get the feeling Doc knows how to tune a Harley.)

I will post my opinion of my experience with Doc Tuning as well as the Dyno results at the end of the month. My appointment with Doc is Thursday the 29th.

Stay "tuned"

[Doc 1]

I pay Jessie a dollar every time he says this.....lol.........

[jesse111]

Only 424 more to go and I get a free tune.

[Doc 1]

Only 424 more to go and I get a free tune.

 

[Heatwave]

I'll be interested to hear what kind of performance you get after the tuning.

[Mr D]

I'll be interested to hear what kind of performance you get after the tuning.

Heatwave,

Get ready to do a road trip....

[Fullsac Performance]

Lets see,

My X Pipe,
Andrews 54,
And Doc, The master at squeezing every last drop of HP out of a bike.

I'm liking this a lot already!  Go Doc! 

Steve

[Doc 1]

Lets see,

My X Pipe,
Andrews 54,
And Doc, The master at squeezing every last drop of HP out of a bike.

I'm liking this a lot already!  Go Doc! 

Steve

''STAY TUNED''......Love that phrase.....

[FUNGOUL]

''STAY TUNED''
SEE YOU FRIDAY "DOC"

[Steve Cole]

So who is this Doc guy???

[jesse111]

So who is this Doc guy???

Here you go Steve.
http://www.docsperformancetuning.com/

[OhioDave]

So who is this Doc guy???

[jesse111]

I've had a few members ask about what my goals are with this tune. I overlooked that in the opening post. Here they are.

My goal is that the engine have freedom to breath and run free without "undo" restriction (cat, restrictive breather and exhaust). I'm not interested in getting the most power possible. If I was, I'd be putting in a lot more performance gear than this. I plan on doing a lot of touring on this bike and I want quality power and reliability.

Quality power to me does not mean the highest numbers possible. It means the best performance possible.

Cooler temps, safety controls and other important aspects of tuning and performance are just as important to me as impressive numbers.

Simply put, I want no decel pops. Snappy throttle response. Coolest possible temps. Smooth roll on power throughout the power band. Dyno curves that make sense for a sensible tour rider like me while maintaining all the safety controls that the Harley ECM is designed to provide.

Sure, I like power. That's why I got the 110 and am doing these mods. But if I wanted to drag race my bike, I'd have purchased a V-Rod and put a turbo on it.

If Doc delivers these goods from the combination of mods I've installed, I will have met my goals and I will commence to kicking asphalt across the country.

[Doc 1]

Here you go Steve.
http://www.docsperformancetuning.com/

Jessie....he knows who I am... ....he's being funny....lol

[jesse111]

Jessie....he knows who I am... ....he's being funny....lol

I pondered that for about 5 minutes before I posted that.

I'm one of those guys who always feels sorry for the poor schmuck in last place. Some people live under a rock. I being one of them I thought he might be too. I didn't know who you were until just a few days ago.

I need to get out of the house more often.

[Doc 1]

I pondered that for about 5 minutes before I posted that.

I'm one of those guys who always feels sorry for the poor schmuck in last place. Some people live under a rock. I being one of them I thought he might be too. I didn't know who you were until just a few days ago.

I need to get out of the house more often.

Yes I guess you do...lol....that masked man, Steve Cole, is the developer and CEO of TTS Powersports that makes the TTS MasterTune..... :
Now thats funny.....

[Jbbrown73]

Yes I guess you do...lol....that masked man, Steve Cole, is the developer and CEO of TTS Powersports that makes the TTS MasterTune..... :
Now thats funny.....

And Doc is quality control, keeps Steve on his toes.

[jesse111]

I've received some pm's about my choice of the Andrews 54.

As we all know, there are differing opinions on which gear performs best with which gear. I'm trying to read between the lines on all the information out there. Everyone has different opinions about the same gear. Opinions are relative.

From all the information I've been able to gather, this is my view point at this time.

I've noticed that I have more than enough power in low rpm ranges such as 2-3k which is no doubt due in part from the 255 stock cams. However, I find that when I'm passing a long vehicle like an 18 wheel rig or perhaps two or three cars, I seem to run out of steam at the top end just a bit. I want serious HP in the 4-6k rpm range so I can get the job done.

The Andrews 54 may offer more HP in that range. Even with the possible loss of a few foot pounds of torque in the low range, I am willing to make that trade. Doc has mentioned that the 54 offers a cooler temp operation over the 255. Cooler temps are high on my list of priorities.

I will be going forward with the Andrews 54. I don't know what my bike dyno's at right now but lets assume it's close to any other standard 2010 cvo 110 dyno. I'll try and find a stock dyno and post it along with the 54 dyno from Docs. Additionally, when I leave Doc's place, I'll be riding about a 750 miles home. I should certainly be able to offer a seat of the pants power opinion review by then.

Stay "tuned".

[Jbbrown73]

I've noticed that I have more than enough power in low rpm ranges such as 2-3k which is no doubt due in part from the 255 stock cams. However, I find that when I'm passing a long vehicle like an 18 wheel rig or perhaps two or three cars, I seem to run out of steam at the top end just a bit. I want serious HP in the 4-6k rpm range so I can get the job done.

The Andrews 54 may offer more HP in that range. Even with the possible loss of a few foot pounds of torque in the low range, I am willing to make that trade. Doc has mentioned that the 54 offers a cooler temp operation over the 255. Cooler temps are high on my list of priorities.

The reasons you mentioned above are exactly why I went with the SE259G (same grind as the SE251) and it filled the bill perfectly.  My bike runs WAY cooler, pulls very hard all the way to 6k and I can't tell that I lost much if any low end.  It starts making noticably more power at about 2500 and doesn't stop through the power band.  I find I'm riding a little harder because it is running so much better. Mine came in at 102hp and 101tq with intake, exhaust and cam change.  I did not do anything with compression.  I am very pleased and I think you will be to.

[jesse111]

The reasons you mentioned above are exactly why I went with the SE259G (same grind as the SE251) and it filled the bill perfectly.  My bike runs WAY cooler, pulls very hard all the way to 6k and I can't tell that I lost much if any low end.  It starts making noticably more power at about 2500 and doesn't stop through the power band.  I find I'm riding a little harder because it is running so much better. Mine came in at 102hp and 101tq with intake, exhaust and cam change.  I did not do anything with compression.  I am very pleased and I think you will be to.

This is a good post. I will compare my results of the dyno as well as my riding experience with yours. Both cams seem to be close in performance.

[jesse111]

Here's a preliminary update on the Andrews 54.

Some very good news is that the decel pop at 1800 is practically gone. Most times it doesn't pop at all. Other times I can detect a slight muffled rumble that seems to be a pitiful attempt at a pop but never really happens. I have no doubt that Doc will easily eliminate an residual issue of that troubled spot.

Another noticeable benefit was the "passing lane power". I was on a country road and had 3 cars and an 18 wheel rig all in front of me and all driving like hourly employees. Passing zones were few and far between. My chance finally came and off I went. The power ceiling has definitely risen. The 110 kept delivering as the engine wound tighter and tighter. I felt more confidence as I blew away the traffic in front of me. In fact, by the time I got along side the big rig, I had to throttle back just a bit. Speeds were just rising to fast. I didn't have to wait on the bike to catch up with me if you know what I mean.

The torque on the lowest end however has seemed to have suffered. However, I am willing to admit that there could be some mind conditioning at play here. I was informed that some loss may result on the lowest end so I was expecting it. I feel some go juice kicking in around the 3k mark and from there it seems rather endless as compared to the 255. Whether or not I can truly feel a low end loss, I am not sure of quite yet. Most of my trip was rained out so I had limited opportunity repeated the testing.

As regards my "perceived" torque loss, my dealer who installed the cams told me it felt better to him than the 255's in every way. He also noted his opinion of the difference between the 54 and the HD251. He said the power surge at 3k in the 251 is significant. He felt it in the 54 but not as much as the 251. However, he also said that it is possible that the 54 offers similar power but at a better curve thus a smoother delivery across the whole rpm range. That is the way I felt about it. It seems like there is plenty of power but there isn't any defining point that over emphasizes where the power comes on like flipping on a light switch.

If my and my dealer's observation is true, this would fit my riding style as a tourer for good clean wide band power for long haul highway use.

The power curve itself seems smooth throughout but something tells me the engine could run a bit smoother. I also suspect that the temps have indeed lowered. I experienced less heat on my right leg but more miles are in order for further testing on that point.

If Doc can tune in a touch of low torque, add a touch of smoothness and completely eliminate the miniscule trace of that decel pop, this will be one very nice running 110.

As a side note, I've purchased the quiet baffles for the Jack Pot mufflers. This may offer a difference in performance (i.e.) a touch more low end torque.

I'll see you next week Doc.

[FUNGOUL]

Thanks Doc for the new prescription for my SESG it's just what the Doc ordered!!!!!

[jesse111]

That is one cool photo. I'll be taking the same shot next week.

So give it up Fungoul, tell us about your tune. What differences have you noticed so far?

[Heatwave]

Thanks Doc for the new prescription for my SESG it's just what the Doc ordered!!!!!

Can you post the dyno from the tune together with a list of the engine upgrades?

[Doc 1]

If I recall the out come was 98/118. This is a CVO with the 255 cam.
Doc

[HOGMIKE]

If I recall the out come was 98/118. This is a CVO with the 255 cam.
Doc

 

That's pretty consistent on what we see around here on a stock CVO. Last one I saw was 98/113!!
Depends on weather conditions and a couple other variables, but, pretty close I think!

Good job!

[jesse111]

If I recall the out come was 98/118. This is a CVO with the 255 cam.
Doc

Good solid numbers Doc. Fungoul PM'd me and is very happy with his tune and experience with you. Any chance of posting a pic of the dyno sheet on here? I'd like to see the curves and then of course we can make some comparisons to the 54 next week.

[Doc 1]

The graphs will have to come from Fungoul.....I won't over step my boundaries......ie... ...thats Dr./ Patient privileges......

[jesse111]

Fire up that scanner Fungoul. Let's have a look.

[TimBone]

I got my bike tuned by Doc this past March!
Just DO IT!
Bike has never run so well!

TimBone

[jesse111]

Final numbers are hp 98 and torque 112 (CF: SAE smoothing 4).

I’m telling the numbers up front because let’s face it, that’s what we all want to know.

If those numbers don’t impress you, then the rest of this 3 page review may bore you. If you’re interested in why I am satisfied with the results… read on.

I stayed at the Holiday Inn express which was very nice, reasonable and just 2 or 3 miles from Doc’s. As I rounded the corner in to the parking lot at Doc’s place, I was greeted with a smile and a wave to ride the bike right in the bay. If your shy around people you better get over that. Doc is all about open communication and will tell it like it is. He’s got a great sense of humor and makes you feel right at home. He’ll answer any question and offer options and solutions if necessary based on his enormous experience and expertise.

As he began the tune on Thursday CVORick from the forum showed up to hang out with us and observe this tune. I didn’t realize it at the time but his presence would turn out to be an enormous blessing in my very near future.

As the tune progressed Doc began to notice some unique anomalies appearing on the dyno. I’m not going to explain the technicals of the matter but tuning the Fullsac proved to require unusual compensatory adjustments. It can be done and Doc can do it for sure. It was however, a personal choice of mine whether to continue or not. Doc would be the one to contact for further information on this.

I was not aware that the inside diameter of the Fullsac at the exhaust port was only 1.5 inches or so. However, in order to make a stepped header 1.75 at the muffler end, you would have to begin with 1.5 at the port end. This is what Fullsac has done. Apparently it works pretty good in many applications. Some individuals are showing some mighty fine numbers. I felt a significant increase myself when I replaced my stock gear with it. So they are without a doubt a vast improvement power wise over stock. And of course, you can use the Fullsac cores and any other 1.75 muffler with this design without any adapter, so there are advantages.

I decided however to switch over to a larger pipe diameter. This would leave my future open for any performance level of engine mods I might choose to do. I thought about the V&H power duals. It is certainly a quality pipe and looks excellent. Rick has them and is getting great performance out of them. He has the Fullsac cores and they sound great.

I thought about the Fuel Moto Stainless Xpipe but I had only one day to make a purchase. Doc’s time frame as well as mine were quite narrow.

I began looking closely at the Rinehart True Dual Xtreme. These headers are mandrel bent, stepped from 1.75 at the port to 2” at the muffler end and they are ceramic coated. Their look is a matter of preference. Personally, I love the appearance. They have a beefy aggressive look about them that adds ruggedness to the refined appearance of the CVO Ultra. I also like how both pipes slant back similar to the softail design. I’ve always preferred that look over the forward curve design. This stylistic counter balance works for me. I love mixing old and new in a tasteful fashion.

Since they are true duals the rear pipe maintains it’s full diameter as it routes under the bike to the left side. I kinda like that. So I decided to make the purchase. (No price break. Full MSRP. Not cheap!)

This is where the blessing of CVORick’s presence manifested itself. This guy offered (I did not even have a chance to ask first) to go 2 hours one way to Destination Daytona and pick this gear up for me and bring it back next day. If Rick had not been there with a willing spirit, I would have had quite the challenge working all this out. So he went, checked out the kit to ensure all the parts were there and returned Friday. Thanks Rick. You're one cool dude.

Friday morning Rick and I began installing the kit using Doc’s tools and bay area while Doc tended to his Friday tune appointment. The attitude in the garage and desire to work together made this whole ordeal really a lot of fun. We spent the day working and having a good time. Rick and I would only make fun of Doc when he was in the dyno well out of earshot. After all, my tune wasn’t done yet.

[jesse111]

Every once in awhile Doc would come out and examine our install progress. I took credit for all the good stuff and blamed Rick for all the mistakes. That’s why when Doc would come out and ask “Who did this part?” I’d first have find out if it was good or bad before answering.

Truth is, Doc has tricks and techniques to ensure proper seating of the exhaust and I learned a lot even with something as “simple” as an exhaust install. It was very reassuring to have a pro looking over your shoulder.

After the install of this magnificent exhaust system, we fired it up. Yep, they’re Rinehart’s alright. Nothing sounds like a Rinehart. I had them on my 08 RK with their old style true duals. Music to my ears then, and sound even better to me now. I originally was looking for something quieter than Rinehart’s. But to tell you the truth, at cruising speed they sound great. Idle and decel give me chicken skin. However, if you get on it, well… you know what happens when you throw down on a Rinehart system… it’s all business.

So in to the dyno we go with the Xtreme duals two days later than my original appointment. The first thing I notice is there is no decel popping. Even before the tune, the Rineharts had eliminated all decel popping. This was obviously a quality exhaust and was proving itself to us from the word go.

You would have to talk to Doc as to the actually tuning challenges but it seemed as if he was having fun tuning these Rineharts. I felt that things were reasonably predictable for him with no extreme anomalies or unusual surprises.

As Doc meticulously tuned my bike it just kept sounding better and better. He does not rush. Bring your laptop or reading material because you’re going to be there awhile. There’s water and soft drinks in the fridge and an air-conditioned office with TV and wireless internet for you. Or, you can watch the dyno through a window.

Doc informed me that he was not fully satisfied with the numbers you see above. More on that in a moment.

But he was done with the tune and now it’s time to for a test ride.

THE TEST RIDE -

The first thing I noticed was the engine started easier and quicker with much less effort. The actual take off from a dead stop is also noticeably easier. As I released the clutch the bike rolled out from a stop with noticeable smoothness. I knew at that moment something good had happened to my bike.

As I took her out on the road, it was like a different engine. Smooth is the best word. From take off to acceleration to decel, everything was smooth. I went to the top of the hill around the corner from Docs, wound out 4 gear and let the gravity drag me down to 1500 rpm to test for any decel pop issues and there were none. Not one. Oh happy day.

Acceleration through the gears is like honey.  She winds up like a sewing machine.

Since leaving Doc’s I did a 7-hour ride to Woodstock Georgia for the Traxxion install. That is where I am at the time of this writing.

I have all the torque I need and at 65 mph I can twist the throttle and off she goes.

After two full tanks, my fuel mileage has apparently increased an average of 2.5 mpg to about 40. I'll do more testing on the way back to NC to confirm my exact hwy mileage.

More power and better economy - now that's a combination I can appreciate.

Doc seems convinced the 110 engine requires head work to breath efficiently. The 54 cam I installed did in fact increase power but the heads appear to be stifling it's true capability. Apparently, Harley has designed the 110 to produce some nice torque but has sacrificed HP. Why? … Perhaps Emissions? Noise? Maybe both.

Docs viewpoint of restrictive heads is supported by two dynos that I personally know of. Both 110 engines installed the Woods T7 cam which is bigger than the 54. However, both engines are producing less power than the 54. It should be the opposite.

You can’t knock down a brick wall with a tennis ball. Throwing a basketball at it won’t help. It’s just harder the throw.

[jesse111]

Apparently, the 110 can easily be over cam’d as Doc warned me about. If you do over cam it, it responds with power loss, not gain. All things considered, I agree with Doc’s findings that to realize the potential of the 110 (especially with large cams) head work is a necessity. Both the cat in the exhaust and the heads appear to be severe restrictive points in the 110.

I think the 54 might be all the cam the 110 can take without head work. But I suspect it too would certainly show improvement with even a minimal amount of head work.

As for the infatuation with numbers that some folks have… consider this.

I was watching drag racing the other day. The winning qtr mile speed was a little over 290 mph. The loser was just over 300. Both left the line virtually simultaneously as far as my eyes could see. I don’t live and die by numbers. To me numbers are reference information. Numbers can’t tell you what I feel when I ride this bike after Doc’s tune.

So there it is. With good exhaust, good intake, the Andrews 54 and a truly professional tune from Doc you’ll get good economy, cooler temps and significantly more QUALITY power over stock. Those were my primary goals when I set out on this modification/tune and that is what I got.

Could you do better with some other cam or the 251 or maybe even the stock 255? Perhaps in some rpm ranges. But I honestly believe that without proper head work, we’re just splitting hairs at this point.

Doc says the 54 runs cooler than the 255. That alone is worth the swap to me. I might gain or lose a ft-lb or two from one cam or exhaust vs. another… but the way I feel riding this bike now... I couldn’t care less.

Some good advice might be to contact Doc before you build. Know what you’re getting in to. Match your components. But don’t just call to pick his brain. Hire him to do the work or the tune. If you don’t hire him, then demand that he give you his paypal address and send him some money for his advice. It’s the fair thing to do.

Finally, let me say that Doc’s wife Elizabeth is just a delight (you got a good one there Doc). They’re both wonderful spiritual people and I enjoyed their company very much. If you decide to hire Doc to do your tune, be sure and get the address of the local Mexican restaurant for lunch. Get the chicken chipotle burrito there. Then get the address of the Japanese Sushi restaurant for dinner and get the teriyaki salmon bento there (it’s not raw). You will not believe how good that sushi dinner is.

Thanks Doc and Elizabeth.

[CVORick]

Just wish I had been able to stay Saturday and see your face after the test ride.  Now I have to start saving for a cam and head work.   Isn't it great when a plan comes together.  Doc is definitely the man. Ride Safe.

[SCRM-R]

Great summary!  More kudos for Doc...

[Mr. Wizard]

If I had known you were just up the street today Jessie, I'd joined you for a bit.

Good to hear that you got Doc to get that tune done right.

[SBB]

Docs viewpoint of restrictive heads is supported by two dynos that I personally know of. Both 110 engines installed the Woods T7 cam which is bigger than the 54. However, both engines are producing less power than the 54. It should be the opposite.

Jessie, it appears that your based in North Carolina.

Come on up to "Screamin @ New River Gorge" http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=43289.0 and I will show you the tailights of a 110 with a Woods TW7H.

Long post and glossy dyno sheets mean nothing once the grip is twisted.

SBB

 

[Doc 1]

Jessie, it appears that your based in North Carolina.

Come on up to "Screamin @ New River Gorge" http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=43289.0 and I will show you the tail lights of a 110 with a Woods TW7H.

Long post and glossy dyno sheets mean nothing once the grip is twisted.

SBB

 

After your done with Jessie come to Florida and I will show you the tail lights of a 103'' with a woods TW8.....that is if you have a set of field glasses...

[SBB]

After your done with Jessie come to Florida and I will show you the tail lights of a 103'' with a woods TW8.....that is if you have a set of field glasses...

Chit no Doc, I know better.
But someone bashing another cam just because they are satisfied with theirs only shows a lack of respect or knowledge of other products.
Your history preceeds you, you could put a Woods cam in a Buell Blast and I'd be toast.
And that I don't need a set of field glasses for!

 

SBB

[CVORick]

Chit no Doc, I know better.
But someone bashing another cam just because they are satisfied with theirs only shows a lack of respect or knowledge of other products.
Your history preceeds you, you could put a Woods cam in a Buell Blast and I'd be toast.
And that I don't need a set of field glasses for!

 

SBB

After meeting Jesse, I doubt he was "bashing" the Woods cams or being "disrespectful", just giving his opinion based on his experience.  That what happens on a forum.  You evidently have a different experience and it is respected.  I enjoy reading your post.  Hope I get to meet you also on one of my trips up to North Carolina.  You have been a great resource for me.

[SBB]

After meeting Jesse, I doubt he was "bashing" the Woods cams or being "disrespectful", just giving his opinion based on his experience.  That what happens on a forum.  You evidently have a different experience and it is respected.  I enjoy reading your post.  Hope I get to meet you also on one of my trips up to North Carolina.  You have been a great resource for me.

What can I say to a man that has one of the best looking 10th Anniversary CVO's ever built?
Other than "Good Taste in bikes!"
Experience to me is just that, it's not based on what you have heard.
I did a lot of research on cams before I made my choice but nowhere on this great site will you find me saying anything negative about the 54.
Regardless of the outcome I'd rather confirm my decision by twisting the throttle.
That's something I enjoy doing, the 09 turned over 32K miles coming back from Panama City on Sunday.

SBB



And BTW, would enjoy seeing you at New River Gorge!
Can you make that happen?

[jesse111]

Chit no Doc, I know better.
But someone bashing another cam just because they are satisfied with theirs only shows a lack of respect or knowledge of other products.
Your history preceeds you, you could put a Woods cam in a Buell Blast and I'd be toast.
And that I don't need a set of field glasses for!

 

SBB

I believe you have missed the point my friend. Check your emotions and listen up. No disrespect or bashing was in the least bit ever intended in my post. The fact that you focus on that one point out of all the information in my review and misconstrue it and take it personally, leads me to believe you are quite fond of your Woods cams. Hey, that's OK. But look closely at my review and you'll find I am expressing surprise at the lower numbers of Woods cams and also explain my belief as to why. To quote myself...

"Both 110 engines installed the Woods T7 cam which is bigger than the 54. However, both engines are producing less power than the 54. It should be the opposite."

The above quote is my honest observation. And yes I honestly believe it should be the opposite. I clearly state the T7 should be outperforming the 54 and that the blame lies squarely on the HD stock heads. My intent is clearly to emphasize the shortcomings of the stock heads. My only personal reference are the Woods cams.

In large part this experience has taught me that building an engine requires balance in component choice. I feel it's beneficial for others to understand that. I'm not suggesting I've found the perfect balance as I state in the closing remarks of my review. To quote myself again...

"I might gain or lose a ft-lb or two from one cam or exhaust vs. another… but the way I feel riding this bike now... I couldn’t care less."

SBB, are you suggesting that larger cams in the stock 110 will overcome the head issue I discuss in my post? If so, then by all means discuss your findings and opinions in a way we can all benefit from. That's what this forum is all about isn't it? If you can post big numbers with a T7 and stock heads then please do. I know 2 riders that will want to talk with you and find out how you got them.

I'm sure you'll agree that no benefit will come from hasty accusations. If you have an opinion or evidence different from mine, then share it. But name calling and bravado chest pounding won't accomplish much good.

As regards the "twist of the throttle" you mention. You're preaching to the choir on that one. That is another one of my main points. My numbers are 98 and 112 and yet I have all the power I can stand. On this point we certainly agree.

Do you live in Matthews NC? I have all my bike work done at Harley of Charlotte in Matthews. Next time I'm up there what say we grab a cup of coffee. You'll find I have no intent to bash any one or any thing. But I might take you up on that tail light race challenge just for the heck of it. It might prove rather interesting. Loser buys the beer?  

[CVORick]

And BTW, would enjoy seeing you at New River Gorge!
Can you make that happen?

Will see what I can do.  Would like to meet everyone.  Leaving for Maine in mid August with a couple of friends from North Carolina as the start of our 4 Points ride. Have to either cross or pass West Virginia.  Would be a real pleasure to see everyone.  See what I can work out.

[SBB]

On this point we certainly agree.

Do you live in Matthews NC? I have all my bike work done at Harley of Charlotte in Matthews. Next time I'm up there what say we grab a cup of coffee. You'll find I have no intent to bash any one or any thing. But I might take you up on that tail light race challenge just for the heck of it. It might prove rather interesting. Loser buys the beer?  

Let me know when your coming down and we can meet and do a little test run!
That's why we have the bikes, to take them down the road.

SBB

[SBB]

Will see what I can do.  Would like to meet everyone.  Leaving for Maine in mid August with a couple of friends from North Carolina as the start of our 4 Points ride. Have to either cross or pass West Virginia.  Would be a real pleasure to see everyone.  See what I can work out.

Cool Rick!

Look forward to meeting you!

SBB

[O4SEGlide]

09 CVO Road Glide with 96" catless header, 2.0" Fullsac Baffles, TR625 Cams,SERT and tuned @ TMANN''s with 107hp and 112.69 torque. No head work. Are these good numbers?

[O4SEGlide]

Sorry but I meant to ask in my previous post what you guys think I would increase in #'s if the bike had a different header/pipe setup? What % gain could I expect if I had a 2 into 1? Thanks

[jesse111]

Looks good to me. Can you post a pic of the print out?

[Sea Biscuit]

Jesse,

Thanks for the write up...lots of good info!

However, just curious as to why you would get rid of the X-pipe...is the thinking behind this that due to the inside diameter of the Fullsac at the exhaust port being approximately 1.5 inches that this "may" restrict future performance upgrades should one considers headwork and cams in the future?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[O4SEGlide]

Have no way to post the chart. I will say that the tq range above 100 comes in @ 2650 and stays above 100 until 5200. This is what sold me on the T-Man cams.

[Doc 1]

Look at the top right corner of the graph and tell us what correction factor says.
Doc

[SBB]

Look at the top right corner of the graph and tell us what correction factor says.
Doc

Doc


Can you explain to everyone about the correction factor numbers and what they mean?

CF: STD Smoothing: 5, or 3 or 

SBB

[Doc 1]

Doc


Can you explain to everyone about the correction factor numbers and what they mean?

CF: STD Smoothing: 5, or 3 or 

SBB

Correction Factors are atmospheric conditions that horsepower is rated at. We use SAE in America which stands for Society of Automotive Engineers and they say the perfect atmospheric conditions are 29.23'' mercury, dry air (no humidity), and 77 degrees. At this correction factor we can run a bike in Denver and get the same HP if we ran that bike in Miami or any where in the world for that matter.....the computer rates the air at the SAE correction no matter if it is raining, high humidity, or 100 degrees in the dyno room. STD correction factor says the perfect atmospheric conditions are 29.73, dry air, and 60 degrees, so as you can see the STD correction rates HP at a cooler temp, closer to sea level than the SAE correction. The cooler air and denser air will produce more HP so STD usually is 4% higher numbers than SAE correction factor. There are several correction factors all over the world.....Germany has their own CF called DIN, Japan has their own, Europe has their own and so on and so on. The USA seems to use the SAE and the STD so that's why I want to know what the correction factor is when people say what there numbers are....if STD is 4% higher then a 100 hp motor will put out 104 hp by a click of the mouse. The smoothing smooths out the graph....the scales is from 1 to 5 and 5 being the smoothest. If you have a graph with the tq and hp line set at smoothing 1 the graph will get real zagged and the peaks of the zags will make hp and tq much higher than it would be if the smoothing on #5. These things make a BIG difference in the hp/tq read outs with just fudging with a few things in the winPEP 7 software and if you didn't know to look for these things you can be very deceived.
Doc

[O4SEGlide]

The chart shows SAE Smoothing 5. If you haven't check out TMann and his componets please take the time to do so.

[SBB]

Correction Factors are atmospheric conditions that horsepower is rated at. We use SAE in America which stands for Society of Automotive Engineers and they say the perfect atmospheric conditions are 29.23'' mercury, dry air (no humidity), and 77 degrees. At this correction factor we can run a bike in Denver and get the same HP if we ran that bike in Miami or any where in the world for that matter.....the computer rates the air at the SAE correction no matter if it is raining, high humidity, or 100 degrees in the dyno room. STD correction factor says the perfect atmospheric conditions are 29.73, dry air, and 60 degrees, so as you can see the STD correction rates HP at a cooler temp, closer to sea level than the SAE correction. The cooler air and denser air will produce more HP so STD usually is 4% higher numbers than SAE correction factor. There are several correction factors all over the world.....Germany has their own CF called DIN, Japan has their own, Europe has their own and so on and so on. The USA seems to use the SAE and the STD so that's why I want to know what the correction factor is when people say what there numbers are....if STD is 4% higher then a 100 hp motor will put out 104 hp by a click of the mouse. The smoothing smooths out the graph....the scales is from 1 to 5 and 5 being the smoothest. If you have a graph with the tq and hp line set at smoothing 1 the graph will get real zagged and the peaks of the zags will make hp and tq much higher than it would be if the smoothing on #5. These things make a BIG difference in the hp/tq read outs with just fudging with a few things in the winPEP 7 software and if you didn't know to look for these things you can be very deceived.
Doc

Thank you sir!

 

SBB

[Doc 1]

The chart shows SAE Smoothing 5. If you haven't check out Man and his components please take the time to do so.

I am very familiar with T-Man's products and work....just wanted to see your graph or know what your CF was....thanks.

[O4SEGlide]

No problem. T-Man actually mentioned a different header/pipe setup would have probably yielded even better numbers but probably not worth the extra expense. Thanks

[Doc 1]

No problem. T-Man actually mentioned a different header/pipe setup would have probably yielded even better numbers but probably not worth the extra expense. Thanks

I'm sure he is right on the header comment. My aurgument here is the heads don't allow these cams to breath, even though you broke 100 hp your tq is still way below what a good flowing head can produce. You have more hp than Jessie however your cam is WAY larger that Jessie's but you tq is the same as Jessie's and this is my point. I have 103'' packages that run 120/122, 107'' packages that run 125/128, 95'' packages that get 105/115, and a 113'' that yeilds 125/135....so for a 110'' only getting up to 112 tq the heads are not flowing enough air through the motor in my opinion.
Doc

[O4SEGlide]

Really thinking about having the heads done this fall and then maybe changing out the header. What header seems to be producung the best results Doc? Thanks

[Robmay]

Doc, PM sent.

[jesse111]

My aurgument here is the heads don't allow these cams to breath, even though you broke 100 hp your tq is still way below what a good flowing head can produce. You have more hp than Jessie however your cam is WAY larger that Jessie's but you tq is the same as Jessie's and this is my point. I have 103'' packages that run 120/122, 107'' packages that run 125/128, 95'' packages that get 105/115, and a 113'' that yeilds 125/135....so for a 110'' only getting up to 112 tq the heads are not flowing enough air through the motor in my opinion.
Doc

Excellent summation.

[HOGMIKE]

I'm sure he is right on the header comment. My aurgument here is the heads don't allow these cams to breath, even though you broke 100 hp your tq is still way below what a good flowing head can produce. You have more hp than Jessie however your cam is WAY larger that Jessie's but you tq is the same as Jessie's and this is my point. I have 103'' packages that run 120/122, 107'' packages that run 125/128, 95'' packages that get 105/115, and a 113'' that yeilds 125/135....so for a 110'' only getting up to 112 tq the heads are not flowing enough air through the motor in my opinion.
Doc

Doc's "packages" will show how much is available with some minor mods to the Harley motors.
Result: you get a cleaner running, cooler running,  more responsive bike.
The amount of $$$ I have invested in my '10 is way more than my "old" 113, but, the older bike runs circles around the newer ones and is much more "fun"!
Just shows you what a good tune, heads, cam, pipes......(in other words, the "whole package") will do for a bike.
This forum is a great place to see what works and what does not.

JMHO
 

[jesse111]

Agreed Hogmike.

Had I known about Doc before I started modifications, I'd have discussed a package with him. We're trying to scrape together a mix and match solution after the fact but if I decide to have head work done I'm sure we can make it all come together for something resembling numbers from a packaged kit from Doc.

[tlr]

Jesse, sent you an email.  Ted

P.S. good luck wih your ride.  Glad that it all worked out well for you.

[FUNGOUL]

I'm taking bets on how long till Jesse does head work.............

[StreetDog]

 My guess is by this fall...

[HOGMIKE]

I'm taking bets on how long till Jesse does head work.............

Depends, when does it snow there?

Are we gonna do a poll?

[BUBBLEHEAD]

My thanks go out to Jesse, Heatwave, Jonja, JCZ, HD-Dude, Doc. And any others I haven't listed. When I finally get my new bike I will already have a nice little roadmap to follow. There efforts will help me and I'm sure alot of others avoid buying parts that just dont perform as expected.  Thanks Guys..


Put me in the pool on Jesses' headwork for as soon as the bank account recovers from this last round.

[jesse111]

I'm taking bets on how long till Jesse does head work.............

 

I will never, I mean never do head work on this engine. This will be my last, I mean my very last Harley. Even if I do get another Harley, I won't, and I mean won't modify anything. I refuse, and I mean refuse to put loud pipes on my next Harley that I positively will never get.

Trust me. 

[BUBBLEHEAD]

I will never, I mean never do head work on this engine. This will be my last, I mean my very last Harley. Even if I do get another Harley, I won't, and I mean won't modify anything. I refuse, and I mean refuse to put loud pipes on my next Harley that I positively will never get.

Trust me. 

LMAO   Can't even tell you many times I've said that one. 

[guppytrash]

YUUUUEEEP!

Waintin' on the "Its all about reworked heads" thread.

Keep up the good work Jesse!  Thanks for the reports.

gt

[StreetDog]

I will never, I mean never do head work on this engine. This will be my last, I mean my very last Harley. Even if I do get another Harley, I won't, and I mean won't modify anything. I refuse, and I mean refuse to put loud pipes on my next Harley that I positively will never get.

Trust me. 

Does this mean that the Rineharts are a tad too loud for long trips?

[jesse111]

Does this mean that the Rineharts are a tad too loud for long trips?

Yes, they're a tad too loud for me sometimes and that's probably why I'll keep them on. It's a Harley thing.

[FUNGOUL]

 

[FUNGOUL]

.

[jesse111]

In my opinion, the Rinehart X-treme true dual is the best looking set a of headers money can buy.

Excellent photos. I'll be posting mine soon too Frank. Bike looks fantastic. 

[jarica]

.

Nice looking bike!  There's one in my garage that looks just like it - except that I don't have the SE heavy breather.  Maybe I should get one.

Rick

[FUNGOUL]

In my opinion, the Rinehart X-treme true dual is the best looking set a of headers money can buy.

Excellent photos. I'll be posting mine soon too Frank. Bike looks fantastic. 

you= alot o money
me= he he he

[jarica]

A recent dyno tune on my 2010 CVO Street Glide resulted in 93.2 HP @ 5196 RPM and 114.6 ft-lbs TQ @ 3094 RPM with stock SE255 cams, Fullsac X-Pipe (B), Fullsac 2' core baffles and SE Ventilator.  I'm happy with the results and the reasonable cost of the whole thing.  New cams, headwork and different pipes will take some serious consideration.  Maybe next year - if ever.

Rick 

[jesse111]

Those are good numbers.

Mine are 112 torque at 3250 and 98.19 HP at 5500.

I wanted to be able to stretch it out a bit at higher RPM's. I believe the Rinehart XTremes and the Andrews 54 work pretty good together to make that happen. My torque comes in a little later than yours although it's a rock solid 100@ 3000 rpm.

[jarica]

Those are good numbers.

Mine are 112 torque at 3250 and 98.19 HP at 5500.

I wanted to be able to stretch it out a bit at higher RPM's. I believe the Rinehart XTremes and the Andrews 54 work pretty good together to make that happen. My torque comes in a little later than yours although it's a rock solid 100@ 3000 rpm.

Thanks for all of the posts about your tune with Doc.  I look forward to seeing a pic of the Rinehart XTremes on your bike!

Rick

[CVODON]

Doc, did you ever get the decel pop out of the guy from Wesley Chappels red 08 103 Ultra? Heard his side, wondered what yours was. From what I heard he said you got him big HP/Torq but he has decel pop excessively and lo (30) mpg. Is this common with your tunes? Or a one off thing?

Thanks

[jesse111]

Doc can come to his own defense on this but I can assure you of one thing, I went in to docs with decel issues and came out with none. Not one. Put 2,000 miles on my bike since leaving his shop and there hasn't been one single pop since. Pure, clean, smooth roll on power. I'd be interested to know what hardware the bike in question has installed.

[Doc 1]

Doc, did you ever get the decel pop out of the guy from Wesley Chappels red 08 103 Ultra? Heard his side, wondered what yours was. From what I heard he said you got him big HP/Torq but he has decel pop excessively and lo (30) mpg. Is this common with your tunes? Or a one off thing?

Thanks

 ...I told him to remove the heat wrap from his pipe then come back....I want to cool the pipe down to stop the popping and the heat wrap was keeping in the heat. He will be back this week to remove all popping.
No, I don't let those things leave the dyno but this case is much different....this is the ONLY time popping has left my shop after a tune.

[KODAGRIN]

With those Rinehart X duals, how do you access the oil filler spout?

[Fired00d]

With those Rinehart X duals, how do you access the oil filler spout?

Good question I had to go back and look at the pictures and it doesn't look it's going to be easy.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[jesse111]

Looks are deceiving fellas. I just changed my oil and filter not 15 minutes ago before heading to the Myrtle Beach rally. Access to the filler cap is no problem. If you check it when pipes are scorching hot I'd be very careful but the cap is fully accessible.

[Fired00d]

Looks are deceiving fellas. I just changed my oil and filter not 15 minutes ago before heading to the Myrtle Beach rally. Access to the filler cap is no problem. If you check it when pipes are scorching hot I'd be very careful but the cap is fully accessible.

So true.. Maybe a picture from standing up looking down at the pipe would show better access.. this may help someone that is considering these pipes.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[FUNGOUL]

ask and you shall receive

[FUNGOUL]

no     Fired00d  don't ask about my other pics lolololol

[Fired00d]

ask and you shall receive

Thanks.

no     Fired00d  don't ask about my other pics lolololol

I was thinking if I ever make it to Pompano Beach Florida I meet you somewhere and I buy the first round.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[FUNGOUL]

and take more pics but on yours !!!!!

[jarica]

no     Fired00d  don't ask about my other pics lolololol

I like to do a hot check of the engine oil.  How easy is that with the Rinehart Xtremes, without your right hand hitting the pipe (if you're right-handed)?

[Fired00d]

and take more pics but on yours !!!!!

Yessir!!!!! You read my mind.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Limited Lou]

Got my Tune done by Doc this weekend. Very good running bike. Good response, and my best discription is less effort on motorcycle.. After the Tune the rain came so I've been checking this thing out Sunday and today between rain drops.. Very pleased.. Just wish I could of done a cam.. Maybe sometime in the future...  Thanks again Doc..

[grc]

I like to do a hot check of the engine oil.  How easy is that with the Rinehart Xtremes, without your right hand hitting the pipe (if you're right-handed)?

You must be a masochist.  Why not figure out how much difference there is between hot and cold on the dipstick, mark the dipstick with a new full (cold) line, and keep your skin intact?  That's how I've been doing it for quite some time now; it's much less painful and I'm less likely to drip oil all over the place.  It's also the same method I use on my cars, my lawnmower, my snowblower, and anything else that requires checking fluid levels. 


Jerry

[duffey11]

...I told him to remove the heat wrap from his pipe then come back....I want to cool the pipe down to stop the popping and the heat wrap was keeping in the heat. He will be back this week to remove all popping.
No, I don't let those things leave the dyno but this case is much different....this is the ONLY time popping has left my shop after a tune.

Doc, I did come back and you have not resolved the poor gas mileage or the popping. Where do we go from here?

[Rooster]

I have a Jim's 131 with a Boarzilla pipe and the only hot spot was the pipe off the rear cylinder. I took the heat shield off and wrapped the rear part of the pipe then put the shield back on. The hot spot is gone and the whole thing is much cooler than my 110 motor that had head work but still stock cams. I had a small amount of popping before the wrap and it is exactly the same after the pipe wrap. So am curious how the wrap makes any difference. In my case I will keep the wrap.

[SBB]

I have a Jim's 131 with a Boarzilla pipe and the only hot spot was the pipe off the rear cylinder. I took the heat shield off and wrapped the rear part of the pipe then put the shield back on. The hot spot is gone and the whole thing is much cooler than my 110 motor that had head work but still stock cams. I had a small amount of popping before the wrap and it is exactly the same after the pipe wrap. So am curious how the wrap makes any difference. In my case I will keep the wrap.

Rooster

I'm guessing he meant the wrapping around the baffle inside the pipe.

 

SBB

[Rooster]

Oops sorry

[jesse111]

You were correct in your original post rooster. It is the ceramic wrap around the header pipe. The temperature of the exhaust will effect the velocity. Exhaust velocity is apparently part of the efficiency equation.

[Steve Cole]

Depending on who calls what, a little popping or a lot of popping there are just some combination's that pop no matter what you do. Depending on where and how much sometimes all you need to do is pull the clutch in. Riding style plays a big part in it and a simple change in that riding style can be why one get's a pop while others do not.

[jesse111]

Riding style can hide popping but doesn't address the cause. Somehow or somewhere there has to be a fuel/air mixture that is out of harmony with the configuration of the engine, or a leak. It's a matter of finding it I believe. Could also be a malformed pipe or defective head or something. But something somewhere is not right if there's popping.

[Steve Cole]

Popping is mainly caused by low back pressure exhaust. This allows oxygen to enter the pipe and cause the popping noise. The wrong mix of parts can and does cause popping and you cannot always get rid of all of it. A camshaft selection along with an exhaust that doesn't play nice together along with head work all plays a part. That is just the way it is sometimes

[Hotrod50]

Doc, I have a FLTRSE3 with  cat removed, fullsac 2" baffles in stock hd slipons, TTS MasterTune with fullsac map.   My dyno numbers are 92hp and 107 tq.   What can you do for me?   I am willing to change cams and have headwork done and am really interested in the Vance and Hines High Output slipons.  I like how they look.  Do you do the cams and headwork, and is the stock harley headpipe okay to keep with the cat removed, or is there something better?

[jesse111]

Popping is mainly caused by low back pressure exhaust. This allows oxygen to enter the pipe and cause the popping noise. The wrong mix of parts can and does cause popping and you cannot always get rid of all of it. A camshaft selection along with an exhaust that doesn't play nice together along with head work all plays a part. That is just the way it is sometimes

This makes sense too and is a good reason why it's beneficial to consider performance "kits" or combinations that many have tried and proved successful. I started out combining parts that had not been truly tested together. The gear I have installed now is mainstream gear with well known successful history that has resulted in stellar performance thus supporting your comment.

My next build will be a package design from a professional tuner such as Doc or T-man or someone like that. I will never again try to find my own combination of performance gear. A task best left to the professionals in my opinion.

[Frankcsal]

I just had Doc tune my 2012 Road Glide Skunk and I just could not believe the difference. The bike is very happy now and I am   to.

Doc replaced the head pipe to a Jackpot Series 2-1-2 Dyno tuned assembly.  I wanted to keep my stock mufflers because I liked the look so Doc had Fullsac replace the baffles with Fullsac 2" baffles.  Doc used a TTS Master Tune.

My SAE dyno numbers are 96.35hp and 121.07 tq.

I can't say enough about Doc.  Good guy and knows his stuff.  

[FLSTFI Dave]

Looks like doc did a nice job with your Skunk.

He will be seeing mine once I get back to the USA.

I have the Jackpot head pipe and Jackpot pro tour mufflers.

Debating weather or not I will built the motor.

[cvosjoe]

Looks like doc did a nice job with your Skunk.

He will be seeing mine once I get back to the USA.

I have the Jackpot head pipe and Jackpot pro tour mufflers.

Debating weather or not I will built the motor.

You need to build the motor.

[FLSTFI Dave]

You need to build the motor.

I'm sure I do.  I know I want to.  Need mainly to see how funds and timing works out.  I do not want the bike down while I am in the USA and could be riding it.  LOL

[Doc 1]

I just had Doc tune my 2012 Road Glide Skunk and I just could not believe the difference. The bike is very happy now and I am   to.

Doc replaced the head pipe to a Jackpot Series 2-1-2 Dyno tuned assembly.  I wanted to keep my stock mufflers because I liked the look so Doc had Fullsac replace the baffles with Fullsac 2" baffles.  Doc used a TTS Master Tune.

My SAE dyno numbers are 96.35hp and 121.07 tq.

I can't say enough about Doc.  Good guy and knows his stuff.  

Thanks Frank but Doc only tuned it.....the Fullsac 2'' cores and X Pipe is what made the power....I only made sure we got it out.
It was a 65 degree day when we tuned Franks bike and the UNCORRECTED graph was 127tq and 101hp....thats awesome for a pipe/baffle change.
Doc