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[Black Diamond]

I'm just posting these links on the new EMS device from Revolution Performance as I've not see it on the site. I don't know anything about any of these devices, just FYI for the guys on here that do know this chit.


  Part 1
   Part 2

JW

[Heatwave]

25 minutes of my time lost forever!

 

SBB

I skimmed it in 7 minutes....still ... my time lost forever.

[Twolanerider]

They've got this on their website.  A bit more to read.

http://revperf.com/Precision/index.html

As guessed they say it will work with ECM's back to 2005.  From what little was said in the podcast that seemed likely.  

$800.  So comparable to the T-Max package or to a SERT and a dyno tune.  Perhaps even a bit less in some cases.  Revolution Performance is in the Drag book now too.  So once a Drag number is published maybe likely even 20% cheaper from Jenni.  $600 makes it even more open to consideration.

Real question seems to be how good they'll actually be at constructing base maps relative to your supplied hardware information.  Biggest handicap of course with any "auto-tuners" is that they really don't.  At least not for more than fuel.  The timing map is just wherever it was when you started without regard to how close your base map (wherever it came from) actually matches your hardware or not.

If they're good at building baselines and do so using your actual hardware configuration and can combine this with added sensing ability for the ECM it has the potential to be a very nice product indeed.  Also seen nor read anything that says what they'll do with AFR.  Is it up to them?  Will they set it where you want it even if it's a bit rich relative to their norms?  Other questions too.  But I'm still curious.  Even the skeptic Twolane is curious.

[Heatwave]

I don't know about the business model at all but I'm sure skeptical. The principle appears to be removing your bike's ECU and shipping it to them for "changes" to the ECU's coding and then shipping it back to you for re-installion in your bike.

Seems pretty nuts to send your ECU into a shop that's going to tinker with the primary software that operates your bike. I'd be concerned from both a safety perspective as well as an operational perspective. What if they inadvertently change a major variable in the ECU's code that changes how the throttle responds (in a bad way) or some other major aspect of the bike's operation that causes an "incident"? Who are you going to "go to". HD will tell you to go pound sand for changing the original ECU's function and it's your problem. I doubt this company will stand behind you wrecked bike that might have been caused by a problem in their ECU coding.

What if a year later the bike just doesn't turn over because of the ECU. Who's going to fix the bike if this company is long gone due to a double-dip recession gone bad? Nope....I just don't like this business model at all.

I'd be far more interested in a new ECU that could be installed. IF it didn't work out at least I could go back to the original ECU hopefully without any incidents.

[Twolanerider]

What if they inadvertently change a major variable in the ECU...

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not assuming they're doing everything nuts on just because the advertise it.  Though Rev Performance has a good rep in the vendor world and what they're describing isn't necessarily that difficult (comparable things happen in the automotive world).  Still have to see it to believe.

It sounds like all they're really doing is building a map specific to your hardware, making that the base map (no overlay instructions) and perhaps adding a function to manage the new o2 sensor functions they're adding.  That'd all be done in the one internal area of the ECMs programming that tuning hardware already accesses.  The other two areas of the ECM would still be unaltered.

Obviously Mother Harley would tell anyone that's done this to go pound salt; or at least they could.  That's no surprise though.  It will deter some.  Won't deter others.  But Harley tells guys that live in Florida to pound salt on warranty claims just because they live in Florida.  So most have gotten beyond letting Harley be a deterrent to actually improving the bikes to what they might have been if the opportunity arises.

Want to see what they're doing in far more detail.  Of course skeptical of application effectiveness until it's proved out a bit.  The idea of what they're doing, however, holds some real promise.  If they're doing what I'm guessing/hoping they're doing it's one of those "about time" things that is several years past due.

[Twolanerider]

Was curious enough here to make a phone call and ask some questions.

They are making all the programming alterations they are making in the tuning section of the ECM. 

Even though his description in the podcast sort of suggests otherwise the rep (Andrew) I spoke with said there is no physical alteration to the existing ECM.  No obvious tell-tales to worry a dealership on that count.

He also said that though it's not published yet the kit will soon have a Drag part number.  That means 20% off from Jenni and a $600 tuning kit rather than $800.  If for purposes of discussion now one assumes the map they build to match your bike is a good baseline that's actually a cost effective option (compared to others).

Still would like to actually see their finished product and a close up of the sensor kit's harness they're using to replace the OE parts.  On an 05 that didn't have sensors to begin he says they're little add-on module does as one would expect and connects to the pin outs in the ECM plug that would read sensors if they're there.  On newer bikes that have sensors in place (I didn't ask enough about this to clarify) my impression was the new sensors replace the old and their module connects to the data plug.

Physicalities being as described nothing especially worrisome there.  Still leaves the question of whether or not they're software is crap of course.

[Dennis the Menace]

For what its worth, I got a EMS unit from Brian and have used it for about a month.

First, if you want to tune your own bike and mess with the many parameters of tuning, this product is not for you.  Not saying there is anything wrong with a TTS, TMAX, SEPST, PC, etc.  They are great tools with the right tuner or somewhat skilled DIY-er.  Some of us like to play with the tuners and try to wring that final HP or ftlb of Tq from our motors.  I know, I have used Tmax, SERT and SEPST in the past.

So, if you like to tune your motor yourself, this is not the product for you.  It is not adjustable other than to turn 2 pots to light steady on to adjust for the O2's (wideband, just like TMax) calibration when you first install it.  That is it.

All the inner workings are done by the RevPerf box.  It connects in line with the stock O2 sensor wires, and connects direct to teh wideband O2's you install with the kit.  You connect the positive and negative wires of the box and thats it.  It doesnt use the diagnotstic plug, and doesnt replace anything on the ECM.  If you have a pre-07 bike, there is 2 wires that need to splice into the ECM plug.  Thats it, nothing more needed.  I installed mine in about 20 minutes total.

The business model is to dicsonnect your ECM, put it in the pre-paid UPS red label (overnight) box, and give it to UPS.  Your reprogrammed ECM will be sent back to you and you will have it by 10am the 2nd business day.  I shipped my ECM on Monday evening, had the ECM at 9:30am Wednesday.  Probably faster than most of us wait for a dealer 5k service.  lol

I do not have any idea of what RevPerf does with the ECM while they have it.  All I know is that when I got mine back, all I did was install it, turn on ignition and run button on, and adjust the 2 pots so they wer no longer blinking.  Then, started the bike and let it idle for 5 minutes, and it was ride time.  It was tuned after 5 minutes.  Again, I dont know what takes place during the warmup, but I do know the bike ran noticeably smoother when it first started, and from there after.

It was a noticeable improvement of the stock ECM that I had smart tuned a SEPST map.  I had some rough idle issues we couldnt get tuned out perfectly, and I had a little gap in the 2k RPM range (due to 2-1 pipes most likely).  These issues went away with this product.  No, no crap!  I was impressed that this setup could do that.

The bike ran great and was smoother throughout the RPM range.  It was slight, but it was noticeable.  We know our bikes, we spend miles on them nearly every day, and we get a feel for them.  So, we KNOW when something changes, however slight it may be.  That was the case here.  I noticed the change in the motor running smoother.

So, this is just my experience with this product.  I dont get paid for posting or endorsing the product.  I do this willingly.  I have gotten tired of messing with the motor (I rebuilt it this past spring--a 103 upgrade with Stage 4 pieces) and I just want to ride a stable bike.  I cant beleive the hours I spent all summer doing tuning runs and trying to get everything perfect.  I wasted a lot of my time.  And, perfection never comes, does it guys?  lol

Anyway, its not the best prodcut to end all products.  Its a great product for a niche, just like any other tuner.  I am very happy with it.  And, just riding now and not worrying about the prefect tune.  Its now good enough.

Dennis

[Twolanerider]

Thanks Dennis.  Appreciate the heads up on your experience.  This is a product I've been paying attention to lately also. 

I've got no desire to spend hours riding and reading and riding and fiddling and riding and checking and schlepping computers and then rinsing and repeating to dial in a bike if I don't have to.  That's what dyno guys are for for the lucky few who have good dyno tuners within their chosen range of travel.

Had a great tuner locally.  Who recently retired.  Have local buddies that I help with their maintenance in the usual busted knuckles vs beer ratios.  In that group there are PCIIIs and TTS bikes and T-Max and Race Tuner bikes and a Twin Tec bike and....   well; you get the picture. 

A guy futzes and fiddles and chases and after hours and hours and probably a few weekends of only plodding rather than riding you feel like it's probably dialed in.  The emphasis there on "you feel like" because no matter how well calibrated your butt dyno is you really know you've not got it perfect.

Losing all that is what has me so interested in what Rev Performance is offering here.  They tweak the tuning area of the ECM (not the other areas of the module) specific to your engine specs.  Add some capability in process.  And you plug it in and forget it.

The big "if" will of course be the quality of the maps they build based on our specs.  If they do that well the product is a life saver for anyone who isn't a tuning boffin who can't help wanting to mess with it himself.  I'm going to use their product on the Road King project when it gets that far.  A couple other buddies here locally have decided to do it over the winter also.  If that goes well I'll spend an hour with each of their bikes rather than hours and hours and hours.  It's hard not to like the upside if the bike also runs well.

[Dennis the Menace]

Twolane, I hear ya.  I respect guys that can fiddle with these things and spend all that time getting them right.  I did that with my muscle cars in high school in the 70's and it was fun to do back then.  I thought I would find the same thrill 35 years later, but there were a few times I was ready to call the dealer to come get the bike and finish it for me.  I just didnt have the time (took almost 3 months to do the 103 build) to devote and it wasnt as fun as my younger years.  I went through issues with my Tmax and 2 sets of pipes, as well as switching to SEPST that resulted in taking much of my summer with tuning and futzing.  No more for me.

I have decided to just buy the bike close to the way I want, and a CVO fits the bill.  The Softail, specifically.  It has a little more bling than I want, really, but has a decent motor to start with and good enough performance for me in the mountains of Colorado.  I might re-cam it for the hills, but otherwise I am just going to ride it and leave it alone.  I of course want a good map/tune for the cam, and richen it up from stock lean spec, so the EMS will go just what I want, without introducing any problems areas, IMO.

I will leave all that tuning stuff for the experts, of which I admit I am not one.  In the spirit of this and the HTT site, I try and help guys with what I know/can, and otherwise stick to BS-ing, which I am accomplished at.  lol

Dennis

BTW-I usually sign my posts with "menace" when I am BS-ing, tho not always.  lol  Menace is my alter ego, haha.

[screwup]

keep us posted on your "work with this" twolane. 

[harleyguynv]

Dennis, have you done any gas mileage comparisions compared to what you were getting before? This unit sounds very interesting.

[Dennis the Menace]

Harleyguy, its tough to call if you will see better mileage.  I had a TMax when I got the 103 put together and installed the SEPST a few months later with the new ProPipe chrome.  With both tuners I didnt have an optimal map and the bike didnt run perfectly, and I never had it professionally tuned.

So, it may be expected that I saw about a 3 MPG increase with this tuner on the highway, and maybe a few more miles per tank around town riding.  One could attribute the better mileage to the new tuner, or to the fact the bike ran much better, or the fact that I was no longer futzing with data runs.  But, I did run the snot out of the bike after the PEMS install to try and find weak spots.  But, havent found any.

I get right around 38-40 highway and 34 city with the new setup.  But, this is a built motor and doing a fair amount of WOT twists just for fun and feel the power.  If I were to run cross country with cruise near the speed limit, I am sure that 45 MPG would be seen.  At least in flatlands.  We dont have much here in Colorado, so hills and mountains always impact mileage out this way.

If you have a great tune now, I dont know if you wll see any/much improvement.  But, you might see an increase over stock ECM or a self tune (Smart Tune, etc).  The self tuners get a bike close, but IMO this product will get you closer to a really great tune.  Just my experience on my bike.

Dennis

[erniezap]

I've been running the Daytona Twin Tech self tuning system in my pumpkin with the 124" motor for about 1.5-2 years.  While the product works decently, it does have some issues. Starting could be difficult at times, would sometimes stall coming off of the freeway, stumble off of idle, and generally sluggish throttle response.  Don't get me wrong, it wasn't anything horrible, but it was annoying me.  Installed the RevPerf self tuning system system in the bike yesterday to compare the 2.  There is no comparison!  From initial startup, the bike started easily, idled well, doesn't stumble off of idle, and it feels like a dog on a leash raring to go!  Throttle response is very good, and the bike is a lot more fun!  That being said, I've only had it for a day and the day was chilly.  I still need to take it into San Francisco, sit in traffic, and let it heat up to get a better idea of how it behaves, but first impression says that this will be staying in the pumpkin.  I also like that I don't have to keep tweaking and playing with it as this got old with the Twin Tech.

[Twolanerider]

Thanks for another data point Ernie.  I've been trying to pay a lot of attention to this product lately.  Have been optimistic in its potential while hoping actual use would bear fruit also.

What you describe has been the first impression of a couple of other users I've actually spoken to.  It's also in line with what Brian promised should be the expectation for the product also.  So it's good to see another good first impression.  I'll anxiously await your further impressions.

It's easy to imagine some shops not being excited about such a bolt on tuning aid.  They'll lose labor time.  But for a private shop with no dyno whose goal is just to make the bike run right after mods without spending hours dialing something in to get it even close this seems an option that should be right up their alley.

Thanks again for sharing the impression.  Makes me even more comfortable with the decision to eventually use it in the Road King when it gets that far.

[guppytrash]

Looks like a great product.  Wide band O2 sensors, no need for a lap top, freedom to make performance changes without being held hostage to a dyno tuner. 
I am very happy with my Tmax but would think this is the next evolution. 
I will be watching to see what affect it has on engine temps..
Once again great info...Thanks for posting!