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Author Topic: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?  (Read 3965 times)

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yellowhog

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I don't know how many of you have heard, but some of the information about the so-called "bailout" has been released.  The Federal Reserve admitted that they not only bailed out foreign banks with our money, but many corporations as well, among them, Harley Davidson.  The Fed purchased commercial paper issued by Harley-Davidson 33 times, for a total of $2.3 billion.

I, personally, stopped doing business with any company that I knew received a bailout.  My reasoning was that if they can't run their companies profitably, then they deserve go out of business.  Now that I've read the above news, I maybe looking at Harley a little differently too.  The past couple of years, I've stopped buying their over-priced stuff anyway.  I go aftermarket whenever I can.  Just wondering how you feel about this.
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Jus Cruisin

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I don't look at that as a "bail-out". Many companies regularly borrow money for short term working capital and when the banks basically shut down all lending when the economy dumped, the government became the only "bank" that was lending money.  It was not a gift.
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Wild Card

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I don't look at that as a "bail-out". Many companies regularly borrow money for short term working capital and when the banks basically shut down all lending when the economy dumped, the government became the only "bank" that was lending money.  It was not a gift.

Precisely.  Commercial paper is a completely viable means of doing business for corporations.  Typically, only companies with excellent credit ratings are able to issue commercial paper as it isn't backed by collateral and has a short term (less than 9 months) payback. 
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dayne66

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PierceEye

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The only thing I would like to know is has it been paid back or any of it.
I understand why they took the loan as the above folks said it is a commercial paper transaction and the banks just did not have the money to load and hedge fund loans are not smart for a company the size of HD due to the high intrest rates or other forms of payment as in stocks etc.

But if they have not paid any back I would like to see there tax filings and corporate balance sheets to see where all the money went or is
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ultrafan

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we have all helped bail out harley  by over paying for our cvo's
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Harley Guy

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we have all helped bail out harley  by over paying for our cvo's

Bingo.........we have a winner.............pay the man Shirley.

Frankly, I probably would not buy another CVO with the current engine, etc.
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kraut

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Dennis the Menace

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Harley payed all back already mid 2009.

....with interest.  It wasnt free money, they paid interest on it.

What has been mentioned is correct.  When money was made available to prop up the banks, the gov required them to use it for existing loans, not new loans.  The problem was FDIC was in a state of bankruptcy, which if the American people had know that, it likley would have resulted in a run on banks similar to the great depression.

When the loan money dried up, companies that routinely relied on short term loans were faced with no capital and going out of business.  Money for loans was then made available to these companies.

Its a fact that most companies rely on short term loans to float their operations.  Example would be, taking out a loan for $1M for buying parts, producing a product, and then selling that product to recoup the $1M in parts plus any assocaited costs.  That doesnt happen instantaneoulsy, it can take months to sell enough product to make up that $1M they borrowed.  But, once they earn enough on products sold to repay the $1M loan, plus interest, its payed back.  This is a very simple example of how businesses operate.

Unfortunately, money was not made aviailable to many smal companies, and they either weathered the storm or closed shop.  And, many did close shop.

MoCo finance borrows short term money on a nearly daily basis.  So, you can see how capital loans drying up would affect their loan business in short order.  They had to take the gov loans, or go under.  That would not have been a good thing for them.

If you choose not to buy a HD based on their taking loans, thats up to you, but base it on the facts and not perception or emotion.  The Gov stopped allowing banks to loan money while FDIC was propped up, so what would you expect MoCo, and other companies, to do? 

Dennis
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Jerry/MD

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If H-D borrowed the money...and payed it back with interest...that's fine. I'm sure there are plenty of other businesses which have done the same.

However, I do believe Harley is at a crossroad. They have let their quality slip and still expect customers to pay a premium for their products. IMHO loyalty will only go so far. If they want long term survival...they need to improve quality AND hold the line on prices. Not an easy task...but it can be done.

Jerry
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murphy

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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2010, 12:52:53 PM »

Absolutely... they have dug their own grave on more than one level...

There are a number of folks like me who are fed up with the lack of quality paid for at a premium...

This was my most expensive HD, and is also the one that I have had to repair most frequently..

The jobs I've had to do on this bike have been very expensive, and I do most of the work myself, what about the poor sap who has to take their bike into a stealer to get it fixed?

I will start feeling sorry for Harley when they start feeling sorry for guys like me that they sold a piece of crap to!

:soapbox:
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cyril

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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2010, 10:19:07 AM »

I support a part of what you guys have to say but bear this in mind .As all you guys appear to have a very loyal outlook upon your country & its made in the USA label (and why not).
Our little country`s experts did little to prop up the great engineering & design industry we once had & like you were proud of. All we do now is import near everything & assemble . Most foreign bought goods are better  than the few things that we do make from imported goods .
If you government will support your industries during this tough period
you will retain one of the best known names on earth ,can that be abad thing ???   JIMHO of course


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kraut

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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2010, 10:34:48 AM »

thx, Cyril,

just about what I thougt and didn't dare to say as mingling in inneramerican affairs may not be welcome  ;)
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JDOFLHRIDER

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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2010, 01:40:40 PM »

I think that all bailouts should have been a loan with interest, and goverment doing it was a resposible way of saving jobs,retirement funds and less people on unemployment. The sad part is like most goverment programs is abuse.
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NW Glider

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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2010, 04:10:36 AM »

I support a part of what you guys have to say but bear this in mind .As all you guys appear to have a very loyal outlook upon your country & its made in the USA label (and why not).
Our little country`s experts did little to prop up the great engineering & design industry we once had & like you were proud of. All we do now is import near everything & assemble . Most foreign bought goods are better  than the few things that we do make from imported goods .
If you government will support your industries during this tough period
you will retain one of the best known names on earth ,can that be abad thing ???   JIMHO of course




I think that one of the general ideas to boycotting companies that have taken bail-out monies is that a lot of the companies have not used the money to build a better company. Instead it was used to bolster the wallets of CEO's etc... and I agree that those companies should be penalized.


The idea of not supporting or buying after-market products is only exacerbating the problem for our made in America companies that still remain. Certainly no one likes to spend more than they should for any product, least of all me, but the proper way is to complain and yell at the "company", let them know what the problem is. Yell LOUD (we all know about loud) and Yell as a group. The noisy wheel gets the grease!

If we allow them to just "go under" then we risk the problems as in the quote from the countries that have seen the results of a failed industry. When we say "enough" and try to put meaning back into the slogan "Proudly Made in America", only then can we complain about a companies prices and quality. I don't have the answers but maybe put higher tariffs on imports. The people from Japan certainly did. Now, (before it's too late) we should look to their example for a "way" to bring the U.S. back to to a country that makes "Quality Products" at reasonable prices.  :soapbox:  :soapbox:  :soapbox:

John





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Vagabond6542

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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2010, 07:42:36 PM »

It became a sad state of affairs when the United States of America went into the worst Recession (Depression?) since 1929.
It has complicated the state of existence for all of its' citizens, and will do so for at least 12 years after the first "shot" has been fired into the downfall of the Economy of the USA.
On the idea of Made in America, I have seen the "Store" given away since 1985. We the citizens of this great Nation are at fault due to GREED of those who hide their true intent while doing business. The answer to all of this, we need to clean the house to the way it was when we were PROUD. JMHO.
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kraut

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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2010, 04:19:21 AM »

just a thought:

both Japanese and German industry was at their best when Japanese and German people were not proud at all but freshly humiliated and hungry ...
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shortdog

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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2010, 08:18:43 AM »

Hey Kraut,
It is interesting to me to hear the opinions and perspective of those from other countries. Perhaps we as a Nation are no longer "hungry" enough?

As for the MoCo using gov't money for financing operational expenses, it is just good business. Also those funds should not be confused with the "bailout" that other large corporations accepted. The gov't did not take ownership of any part of the MoCo, they only loaned the money at low rates when the commercial paper sources dried up due to the banks that were bailed out hoarding the cash and not recirculating it as was intended.
Just my opinion.
Shortdog
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Wild Card

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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2010, 10:37:34 AM »

just a thought:

both Japanese and German industry was at their best when Japanese and German people were not proud at all but freshly humiliated and hungry ...

Thank you, Kraut, for the world view that so few self-righteous Americans have. 
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PierceEye

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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2010, 09:09:51 PM »

Hey Kraut,
It is interesting to me to hear the opinions and perspective of those from other countries. Perhaps we as a Nation are no longer "hungry" enough?

I don't think we know what real "hunger" is yet; let it be financial, economical or food for that fact.

We just need to realize that and wake up before we fall to that type of socialist power.
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skreminegul07

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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2010, 11:28:22 AM »

just a thought:

both Japanese and German industry was at their best when Japanese and German people were not proud at all but freshly humiliated and hungry ...
Unlike Japan and Germany, America is a melting pot, many groups, different ethnic backgrounds, beliefs, and very large as far as population.  It would be very difficult to bring back nationalism in the country short of a widespread holocaust of some kind that touched everyone.  The attack of 911 gave us a taste of nationalism, but soon forgotten. It's ironic that post war Japan's quality was assisted by an American, Demming, who's teachings were rejected at home by American arrogance after WWII.  Gen. MacArthur as governor of Japan, needed to rebuild Japan and as a witness to the poor quality of Japanese radios and communication technologies during the war, he suggested Demming help to develop Japanese prowess in electronics.  He was right. As a student of WWII history, it's a fact that the Germans knew all about quality and technology, they were so far advanced in everything.  New evidence is still coming to light about German advancement and discoveries during the war in jet propulsion, nuclear warfare, synthetic fuel, and recently stealth technology.   
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Vagabond6542

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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2010, 01:12:55 PM »

Unlike Japan and Germany, America is a melting pot, many groups, different ethnic backgrounds, beliefs, and very large as far as population.  It would be very difficult to bring back nationalism in the country short of a widespread holocaust of some kind that touched everyone.  The attack of 911 gave us a taste of nationalism, but soon forgotten. It's ironic that post war Japan's quality was assisted by an American, Demming, who's teachings were rejected at home by American arrogance after WWII.  Gen. MacArthur as governor of Japan, needed to rebuild Japan and as a witness to the poor quality of Japanese radios and communication technologies during the war, he suggested Demming help to develop Japanese prowess in electronics.  He was right. As a student of WWII history, it's a fact that the Germans knew all about quality and technology, they were so far advanced in everything.  New evidence is still coming to light about German advancement and discoveries during the war in jet propulsion, nuclear warfare, synthetic fuel, and recently stealth technology.   

Well, if we really want to look at motivation, WW 2 was a real a$$ kicker to the USA. We were a struggling nation at that time period of our history. But we became a better nation because of it.
The only other Technological advance ever undertaken by the US was the Space Program. You know the place that brought out microelctronics before civilian use. JMHO
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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2010, 01:26:52 PM »

i have a question and i truly would like to know the answer. if our goverment can bail out the largest companies in the world or just issue the notes as in HD case. then is it unreasonable to assume taxes are to high? Not for just citizens but companies also. is this a fair question?
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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2010, 02:18:19 PM »

 Ever since our government bailed out car companies and banks,
I've asked myself WTF! They said it was for "all" the working people
who would loose there jobs.
 I did a small survey, and within a 5 mile radius of my house there are
over 100 small businesses with anywhere from 5 employees to over
200 employees. I asked myself, would our government bail them out?
Upon futher investigating, I bet at least 85% of all the companies,
in America are small businesses. I've never seen these getting bailed
out, if the screwed up. They just close their doors, and let the employees
find a new job. Just saying!
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Vagabond6542

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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2010, 02:52:22 PM »

i have a question and i truly would like to know the answer. if our goverment can bail out the largest companies in the world or just issue the notes as in HD case. then is it unreasonable to assume taxes are to high? Not for just citizens but companies also. is this a fair question?

Your question is fair. If interested, check up on the TEA Party. They have a website.
On the tax issue, until the day the Taxpayer and the IRS(U. S. Government) have a legal level playing field, don't expect equality in tax issues. The IRS agents/organization do what they wish to do without taxpayer legal action against them. Go figure.
Oh, some will say that isn't so, trust me, it is so.
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Vagabond6542

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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2010, 02:53:43 PM »

Ever since our government bailed out car companies and banks,
I've asked myself WTF! They said it was for "all" the working people
who would loose there jobs.
 I did a small survey, and within a 5 mile radius of my house there are
over 100 small businesses with anywhere from 5 employees to over
200 employees. I asked myself, would our government bail them out?
Upon futher investigating, I bet at least 85% of all the companies,
in America are small businesses. I've never seen these getting bailed
out, if the screwed up. They just close their doors, and let the employees
find a new job. Just saying!

Don't hold your breath and wait for a bailout, it will not happen.
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naitram

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Re: What do you think about the American taxpayers bailing out Harley Davidson?
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2010, 02:56:56 PM »

since this has turned to the politics of the bailout i'm locking this
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