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[Steve Cole]

There are basically three types of systems. First is a replacement ECM type. This removes the HD supplied ECM and replaces it, Second would be a tuning product that allows the factory HD ECM to be reprogrammed and changed as much or little as you like. These can be done by the DIY crowd or the tuners out there with a dyno. The third type is a inline device that cuts into the wiring of the bike and fools the sensors to get the factory ECM to think something is different than it really is and modify the signals coming out of the ECM. They all fall into one of these categories. Which is best all depends on who you are asking and what you are looking for.

[Spiderman]

There are basically three types of systems. First is a replacement ECM type. This removes the HD supplied ECM and replaces it, Second would be a tuning product that allows the factory HD ECM to be reprogrammed and changed as much or little as you like. These can be done by the DIY crowd or the tuners out there with a dyno. The third type is a inline device that cuts into the wiring of the bike and fools the sensors to get the factory ECM to think something is different than it really is and modify the signals coming out of the ECM. They all fall into one of these categories. Which is best all depends on who you are asking and what you are looking for.

Could you please add some examples of what's on the market for each of the types you describe. I still don't know one from another and suspect I'm one of many who doesn't. I have no problem with being tagged a dumbass for not knowing either

B B

[sadunbar]

For those of us still stuck in the stone age of 2006 technology as am I, could you please explain who "us" is ? There's a good baker's dozen of aftermarket ECM modifiers and tuners (whatever you want to call them) on the market these days and I don't know one from another WHICH, I think was one of the things the member who started this thread was looking to find out. The thread has morphed into a discussion between several people who seem to be in the know about a particular product of which I am not ashamed to admit am clueless. Basically picture Gibbs on NCIS asking McGee to explain some computer gobbledy-gook to him in English and that'd be me (Gibbs)

Thanks
          B B

"Us", is Revolution Performance... Brian Nalin (revperf) is speaking of their EMS tuning device...  (which is a 4th category of tuner)

[Steve Cole]

First is the replacement of the ECM, this would be units like the Thundermax.
Second would be units that reprogram the factory ECM, this would be units like Mastertune, SERT, SESPT
Third would be units that splice into the wireing, this would be units like a PC3, PC5, Fuel Pak
The Rev performance unit is using the second category and shipping the factory ECM back to you so instead of you tuning it they ship a canned tune to you in the ECM that you shipped to them.

So it's all in what your looking to do and what you expect from a unit. The first group means that you have removed th eFactory ECM and replaced it with something from another supplier. The second group allows you to make any tuning changes you need or take it to someone to do it for you. The Rev unit does this with a little twist in that you remove the ECM and ship it to them then they install the tune and ship it back to you with there tune in place. The third group allows you to make some changes after the ECM has made up what it wants done, this limits what they can and cannot do.

[sadunbar]

First is the replacement of the ECM, this would be units like the Thundermax.
Second would be units that reprogram the factory ECM, this would be units like Mastertune, SERT, SESPT
Third would be units that splice into the wireing, this would be units like a PC3, PC5, Fuel Pak
The Rev performance unit is using the second category and shipping the factory ECM back to you so instead of you tuning it they ship a canned tune to you in the ECM that you shipped to them.

So it's all in what your looking to do and what you expect from a unit. The first group means that you have removed th eFactory ECM and replaced it with something from another supplier. The second group allows you to make any tuning changes you need or take it to someone to do it for you. The Rev unit does this with a little twist in that you remove the ECM and ship it to them then they install the tune and ship it back to you with there tune in place. The third group allows you to make some changes after the ECM has made up what it wants done, this limits what they can and cannot do.

I put the Revolution Performance EMS in a fourth category because with the Mastertune, SERT and SESPT, you can put your bike on a dyno and tune it.

With the Rev. Perf. EMS, you send your ECM to them and they do their thing with it, and then you run off the 02 Sensors.  You cannot tune your bike on a dyno with only the Rev. Perf. unit installed....which to my thinking.... makes it unique to the category...

[cvobiker]

I put the Revolution Performance EMS in a fourth category because with the Mastertune, SERT and SESPT, you can put your bike on a dyno and tune it.

With the Rev. Perf. EMS, you send your ECM to them and they do their thing with it, and then you run off the 02 Sensors.  You cannot tune your bike on a dyno with only the Rev. Perf. unit installed....which to my thinking.... makes it unique to the category...

And add a little more uniqueness to this forth category (or 3rd group  ),,,,you're not doing much of anything for an optimum tune near or better then a tune in the first 3 categories (or 1st 2 groups).  The tunes we like to see with broadband sensors on the dyno tables.    And then the icing on this 4th category uniqueness is; you get this optimum tune on the fly automatically the second you hit the start button...  .... Im liking this new forth category..  

[cvobiker]

CVO,

I went back and looked at my post and I realized that I really should have been more clear.  What I meant was that I am encouraging customers to post their sheets rather than us.  Much, much more credible when it doesn't come from us.

Brian

Brian, i understand what you are saying and where you're coming from.. Your modesty is well served here and respected  

[BigDog1]

  Wow am I glad I found this thread!  I was just starting research on this as I am totally clueless to fuel management like some others.  Definitely explained a lot of things very well.  I'm picking up my '11 SE2SG in May and want to have everything ready when I get it. 
 
Couple of Q's.  If I go with the Rev Perf EMS, how long of a turn around is there to get the ECM back? 

Once I get it back, this is something that I can install myself? 

I'm using the V&H true duals, do I need to order the '09 pipes for the correct size o2 sensor?  I've read in other threads talk about 12 mm and 18 mm (?)O2 sensors depending on the year.

Warranty, still good?  I got the 5 year warranty so don't want to screw it up!!  On that subject, will the dealer install it for me?? 

Thanks again, I am so glad I found this forum, you guys ROCK!!  BD1       

[mjb765]

  Wow am I glad I found this thread!  I was just starting research on this as I am totally clueless to fuel management like some others.  Definitely explained a lot of things very well.  I'm picking up my '11 SE2SG in May and want to have everything ready when I get it. 
 
Couple of Q's.  If I go with the Rev Perf EMS, how long of a turn around is there to get the ECM back? 

Once I get it back, this is something that I can install myself? 

I'm using the V&H true duals, do I need to order the '09 pipes for the correct size o2 sensor?  I've read in other threads talk about 12 mm and 18 mm (?)O2 sensors depending on the year.

Warranty, still good?  I got the 5 year warranty so don't want to screw it up!!  On that subject, will the dealer install it for me?? 

Thanks again, I am so glad I found this forum, you guys ROCK!!  BD1       

The ECM ships overnight in both directions , turnaround is 2-3 days

Here is a thread on the install--not too bad
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=58189.0

You need to get 09 headpipes with the O2 sensors up close to the exhaust ports.

Warranty---now this is where it get interesting...I read somehwere--please anybody chime in and confirm or tell me I am wrong--that after the ECM is modified that the dealer will no longer be able to read it with their tools. Is this right??? If so, then I am guessing warranty on the ECM is right out the window. Anybody have more info on this one?

And I doubt the dealer will put it in since the ECM gets sent out and modified, but I guess it won't hurt to ask. I know the ones on Long island wouldn't.

[revperf]

Mjb,

The dealer can absolutely read it with there existing tools.  It will act and react the same as a stock ECM with regards to DTC codes and other diagnostic tools.  I guess it would be up to the dealer but it would be treated the same as any other "flashing" type system such as TTS or PC Vision.  Hope this helps.  I know these things get confusing with the number that are available.  I like it though that customers have all these choices.

Brian

[mjb765]

Mjb,

The dealer can absolutely read it with there existing tools.  It will act and react the same as a stock ECM with regards to DTC codes and other diagnostic tools.  I guess it would be up to the dealer but it would be treated the same as any other "flashing" type system such as TTS or PC Vision.  Hope this helps.  I know these things get confusing with the number that are available.  I like it though that customers have all these choices.

Brian

Thanks Brian...that was the thing I was not sure about. One question...the install thread for the 05 shows an additonal module where the O2 sensors connect to. Is that the same for the '11 or am I going to use the factory O2 sensor conenctors and not need the additional module?

[timo482]

there CAN be issues with warranty

first issue is epa tampering - changing any of the things you list is epa tampering - that may or may not get you in trouble and may or may not cause warranty trouble - depending on the mood of the service writer the day you show up & how well you get along with them and how much bux you spend with them.

second is modifications - the first two years - they have to prove that your mods did damage and then the warranty is "poof" if you have bux for lawyers you will get more warranty than if not - but if the lawyer cost more than the repair, then who cares......

third is the extended - the extended is a "extended service contract" NOT A WARRANTY when you sign it you say that you wont change ANYTHING and that anything changed voids the service contract for that item or group - ie powertrain is a group

so when you do engine, air, exh, tune mods - you may or may not depending on the mercy of your dealer get any coverage for the engine - the rest of the bike will be fine. however be assured that if the engine pukes and it has performance exh, air, tune - you will be very careful of who and what you do and say to get coverage of anything on the engine.

dealers will often extend a "dealer" warranty to work done in there shop with there parts - but that is NOT a mfg warranty.

if you take it home and do a bunch of work at home using ebay parts & it pukes - you have a very low chance of getting any warranty work on the powertrain.

if you take it to the dealer and spend big bux and it pukes that particular dealer will likely repair it free - but the dealer three states away will charge you for the repair.

to

[Spiderman]

I think the important thing in this thread is that we all gain a better understanding of what products do what when connected to your Harley-Davidson irregardless of how they connect. We get into arguments on this website over things that are not always apples for apples. I find that to be one of the few things about the site that frustrates the hell out of me. Personal preference I understand and can live with but you know sometimes when we are speaking of engine upgrades etc etc, some of the posts are like a guy comparing a .22 pistol to one of those new monster S&W .50 caliber handguns. In any event, the more people who contribute to this thread with posts about the types of systems available, personal experiences with them and so forth the better all of us for it. Even if at the end of the day, some of us still stick with what we feel works best , it's nice to read of the new products from hands on users. And I mean everyday hands on users. I recently corresponded with an industry "expert" and commented to him as to why he and his other magazine editor buddies always use each other for road tests and comparison. Why not poll some everyday riders, folks like us here on cvoharley on their opinion of a product. He had no answer for me so I won't publish his name. OK, I digress. I just wanted to thank those who have provided some valuable insite into what is a very complicated subject and hope that there's more to come. This is one thread I've been following very closely

B B

[smiley1049]

Now what happens if you buy a extended warranty before your two years are up and the mods are already done as you wont be changing anything after that ?

[Spiderman]

Now what happens if you buy a extended warranty before your two years are up and the mods are already done as you wont be changing anything after that ?

Here's my take which is why I stopped buying the ESP. If you take your emotions out of the picture (and your wallet) and look at this issue as a 3rd party with no vested interest, how would you see it ? Myself, I would expect Harley-Davidson Inc. to warranty their product as manufactured and sold to the consumer and only as such. Any modifications would void the warranty- - - period. That H-D Inc has allowed this issue to become so many shades of gray is in large part due to the success of their Screamin Eagle brand of performance parts. Let's look at this in a different manner. What does anyone think would have happened as to the courts, and the NTSB et al with regard to the Toyota's with sticking gas pedals had the owners of these vehicles made modifications to the engines and electronic systems ? The way I see it is if you can't afford to fix your bike in the event of a failure should you choose to modify it from the way it was delivered to you then you shouldn't be making those modifications. You can't have it both ways. If you buy a stock bike and it breaks down then YES, the factory should cover the cost of repair within the time frame established by whatever warranty or warranties you hold on that motorcycel. If you modify that motorcycle- - - - you're on your own.

B B