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[Dr.D]

Please help me understand these dyno sheets.

What are the smoothings in the upper right corner?

Are they done in fifth of sixth gear and if so how do the numbers compare?

Since atmospheric conditions of temperature and humidity affect the numbers how can we compare sheets done under such varying conditions?

Can the tuners cook(skew)the numbers to show better than actual gains?

I have only been back to the motorcycle game for two years after being out for 20. I do not remember these kinds of in depth discussions back in the early eighties. Thanks for helping the not so young(51 years) but ignorant/

[Supershooter]

Please attach the dyno sheet.
Supershooter

[Dr.D]

I was not so much asking to have my sheet looked at as general questions about comparing them to each other. Guys come on with numbers and sheet but can they really be compared with out interpretation of the conditions? I heard mention of the smoothing, what is that? Are all done in the same gear and if not the dyno's are not comparable. Sorry if the questions were ambiguous.

[LC110]

This may help you. http://www.bishopsperformance.com/dynoinfo.htm

[Half_Crazy]

I see that you have something to read above for a better understanding.

A Dyno is just a measuring tool. It is best used to determine if changes made to the engine were beneficial and in what way. As in doing a 'before' set of runs to establish a baseline, and doing runs after changes are made to see what the differences are. The only way to get accurate before and after is on the same dyno with the same corrections and smoothing. The exhaust can be 'sniffed' by the machine to allow the operator to tune the engine to an optimal mixture of air and fuel.

Horsepower is a calculation from the torque. HP = (Tq x RPM) / 5252 (this is why the HP and TQ graphs cross at 5252 RPM).

Let's look at this one:



Smoothing is at max of 5. The graph is SAE (corrected for weather/elevation).

The torque line starts at 100 ft-lbs @ 2650 RPM, ramps up quickly to 120 ft-lbs @ 2950.... and it's still making over 120 ft-lbs @ 5252 RPM. Nice torque for a cruiser/bagger/dresser. The HP graph is a nice diagonal line... but you can see that the HP is probably still building at the 5500 RPM rev limit. This engine would benefit from extending the rev limiter out to 6000+. Theres probably another 4 or 5 HP up there if it would rev out.

Here's another:



SAE correction, smoothing at 4 so the lines are a bit more jagged. This motor kinda lays there until around 3200 RPM where the torque ramps up. Needs exhaust restriction to flatten out/fill-in that dip down low.

The dyno is only as good as the operator. Dyno tuning is an art, and what you need is an artist.   

[Spiderman]

And yet another dyno thread with no mention of ET (elapsed time) between twisting the throttle and the various full power points.

One more time for those who may have missed it the first 100 or so times I posted it 

A motor with lower numbers but a quicker ET will produce a much greater seat of the pants feel than the opposite. Most Big number dyno motors are not getting to peak TQ and HP til into the 5 and 6 second range. If you're up against a guy with say 10 less on each graph but he's doin it in 3-3.5 seconds you're screwed, hand him your pink slip, you lost.

B B

 

[Half_Crazy]

And yet another dyno thread with no mention of ET (elapsed time) between twisting the throttle and the various full power points.

Good catch.

The guys who are doing my motor shaved a crank down and lightened it by 14 pounds. The bike didn't make any more power at all... but... a dyno pull from idle to rev limit in 5th gear was 1.5 seconds quicker. I'll be surprised if that's not a 9 second street bike.

[bigjohn]

And yet another dyno thread with no mention of ET (elapsed time) between twisting the throttle and the various full power points.

One more time for those who may have missed it the first 100 or so times I posted it 

A motor with lower numbers but a quicker ET will produce a much greater seat of the pants feel than the opposite. Most Big number dyno motors are not getting to peak TQ and HP til into the 5 and 6 second range. If you're up against a guy with say 10 less on each graph but he's doin it in 3-3.5 seconds you're screwed, hand him your pink slip, you lost.
B B

Thats exactly right
 big numbers are nice but only if you have to play catch up, 99% of the time a rider that knows his machine and has that quicker launch wins. The bigger numbers means they have to launch so their back tire wont break loose or their front end stays down. In the mean time the other guy is in his power range, If you havent  caught him at 5000 rpm ...your not going to.
Thats where the dyno comes in, dialing in components to get that. I have seen many a bike with 100/100 smoke big numbers.

[ALRG8TOR]

Excellent information! Thank you for adding to MY understanding. 

[Half_Crazy]

Thats exactly right
 big numbers are nice but only if you have to play catch up, 99% of the time a rider that knows his machine and has that quicker launch wins. The bigger numbers means they have to launch so their back tire wont break loose or their front end stays down. In the mean time the other guy is in his power range, If you havent  caught him at 5000 rpm ...your not going to.
Thats where the dyno comes in, dialing in components to get that. I have seen many a bike with 100/100 smoke big numbers.

The rider has a whole lot to do with it. Cutting a good light, launching, shifting at the right RPM... All the HP in the world is useless if you can't get it down the track.



  

[Spiderman]

Good catch.

The guys who are doing my motor shaved a crank down and lightened it by 14 pounds. The bike didn't make any more power at all... but... a dyno pull from idle to rev limit in 5th gear was 1.5 seconds quicker. I'll be surprised if that's not a 9 second street bike.

Ayuh !

B B

[Dr.D]

Yeh now we're teachin Dr. somethin. These are the things I never knew. Sorry about missing it the other 100x but I was not here and I appreciate your tutoring a new guy. Don't let me stay ignorant, please.

Are all runs made in fifth gear?

Explain the CF:SAE lettering please.

Are Elapsed times posted on the sheets?

[Spiderman]

Yeh now we're teachin Dr. somethin. These are the things I never knew. Sorry about missing it the other 100x but I was not here and I appreciate your tutoring a new guy. Don't let me stay ignorant, please.

Are all runs made in fifth gear?

Explain the CF:SAE lettering please.

Are Elapsed times posted on the sheets?

No problemo amigo. No disrespect intended, just a pet peeve of mine. The DynoJet Dynomometer computer program produces an ET sheet but you won't be handed one unless you ask for it. Why ? Well usually the guy doing the dyno work is the one who sold you the package of parts and he's for sure hoping you don't know squat about the ET factor if he's pushing a big number combo that has a slow ET. ET is to a large degree controlled by cam duration. Big cams generally have at least 230 degrees of duration to run a redline near stock (5200 rpm) As a rule of thumb, every 10 degrees of duration pushes your peak hp number upward 500 rpms. Your toque number will always peak below 5200. FYI, 5200 rpm is the point at which the torque and horsepower curves intersect. At 5200 your torque curve will be descending while (depending on duration) your horsepower curve will be ascending. If the cam has to get to 6000 rpms or higher to reach max hp then it's obviously gonna take longer than one that reaches it's full  potential at say 5700 rpms. The cams everyone talks about on this site do not peak out at stock redline (generally speaking)  But you know you can run a twincam to 6200 without doing damage to it - - or at least it's been my experience that they hold together fairly well until you start running them above 6200. The lift and duration of your cam plus other factors are referred to as "cam profile" there are other things involved beyond lift and duration that have to do with the ramps and/or shoulders of the cam lobes. You hear folks talk about cams that are hard on your valve train. A cam with steep ramps/shoulders would be one such cam while one with a nice easy slope to the top and back would be the opposite. Some of the nasty cams folks around here speak of are almost straight sided while others have nearly a 45 degree slope to the sides. When it comes to cams it'a complete science unto itself. The best selling cams are those that combine the qualities of a both types I've just described. This is just the basics of it and some of the members around here can really flesh this out to a much greater degree than what I've stated here. The thing I try to keep out there on the table in these discussions however is to be cognizant of what's involved with the numbers somebody is selling you on. If you're buying a cam that you've got to twist to 6500 rpm and wait 7 seconds for it to reach that 125hp you're being sold on, you will be very upset to find yourself getting dusted regularly by some of your riding bros with 110hp. Hey, bottom line ? I'm no fricken mechanical genious. I don't even own a shop. I'm just putting some common sense street knowledge out there for anyone that cares to check out what I'm sayin.

B B

   PS - - - SAE = Society of Automotive  Engineers. I always though CF meant diesel oil  

[Dr.D]

Thanks BB. The dealer recommended the 259e cam and the high compression pistons and I am pleased. If I can figure out how to post the sheet I will do it. It looks a lot like the first one above in this thread, I like it.

Are all the dynos run in fifth gear?

Looks like it is impossible to compare dyno sheets and come to absolute conclusions about which motors produce the best and most usable power.

[Spiderman]

Thanks BB. The dealer recommended the 259e cam and the high compression pistons and I am pleased. If I can figure out how to post the sheet I will do it. It looks a lot like the first one above in this thread, I like it.

Are all the dynos run in fifth gear?

Looks like it is impossible to compare dyno sheets and come to absolute conclusions about which motors produce the best and most usable power.

You can do dyno runs in any gear you choose, but obviously you can't run your motor up to 6200 rpms in 1st gear and hope it doesn't do some damage. So the common answer to that question would be YES, the dyno sheets you will be given would most likely be a 5th gear run. There's exceptions to every rule - - like what ? Well I doubt seriously a big motor bike would hit peak RPM's in 5th gear in an 8th mile drag race so that motor could well be tuned to peak in 3rd or 4th.

Yes, you are 100% spot on in my opinion. It is impossible to compare dyno sheets and come to ABSOLUTE conclusions which is why I get sort of wound up or amused depending on my mood at folks who live and die for their fricken dyno sheets. You can tell a lot about engine performance from a dyno and you can make adjustments to performance based on the information a dynomomter provides you. You can tune an engine to whatever your specific needs are and also test cams and other parts via the information provided but you don't know who's gonna win the race til the rubber hits the road. To say otherwise is foolish.

B B

[grc]

You can do dyno runs in any gear you choose, but obviously you can't run your motor up to 6200 rpms in 1st gear and hope it doesn't do some damage. So the common answer to that question would be YES, the dyno sheets you will be given would most likely be a 5th gear run. There's exceptions to every rule - - like what ? Well I doubt seriously a big motor bike would hit peak RPM's in 5th gear in an 8th mile drag race so that motor could well be tuned to peak in 3rd or 4th.

Yes, you are 100% spot on in my opinion. It is impossible to compare dyno sheets and come to ABSOLUTE conclusions which is why I get sort of wound up or amused depending on my mood at folks who live and die for their fricken dyno sheets. You can tell a lot about engine performance from a dyno and you can make adjustments to performance based on the information a dynomomter provides you. You can tune an engine to whatever your specific needs are and also test cams and other parts via the information provided but you don't know who's gonna win the race til the rubber hits the road. To say otherwise is foolish.

B B

    Well said Brian.

As for the choice of gear for the dyno runs, it seems the most common approach with the older 5 speed bikes was to do the runs in 4th gear, and now with the 6 speed bikes most places use 5th gear.  What you will probably find is that the choice of gear has more to do with safety than anything else.  If you run any relatively recent Harley up to redline in top gear, the rear tire will be traveling at more than 140 mph.  For an example, at 6200 rpm my 2005 SEEG would be running 150 mph in 5th gear.  The Cruise Drive bikes would be doing even more than that at 6200 in 6th gear. The tires aren't rated for those kinds of speeds, and your average dyno operator isn't probably very keen on having a tire come apart on him at those speeds (could make for a lot of excitement).


Jerry

[Half_Crazy]

You can do dyno runs in any gear you choose, but obviously you can't run your motor up to 6200 rpms in 1st gear and hope it doesn't do some damage.

If winding out 1st gear damages your motor, you didn't start with much.

So the common answer to that question would be YES, the dyno sheets you will be given would most likely be a 5th gear run.

Don't you want to dyno the bike in the gear that's nearest 1:1 ratio?

I doubt seriously a big motor bike would hit peak RPM's in 5th gear in an 8th mile drag race so that motor could well be tuned to peak in 3rd or 4th.

Are we talking about tuning or gearing? You lost me.

you don't know who's gonna win the race til the rubber hits the road. To say otherwise is foolish.

You can make a pretty damned good guess though.

[Half_Crazy]

Are all runs made in fifth gear?
Explain the CF:SAE lettering please.

There was a link provided in reply #3 by Old Lefty. You need to click on this link and read the information there. It will answer your questions.

http://www.bishopsperformance.com/dynoinfo.htm
^^^^^CLICK THE LINE ABOVE THIS TEXT^^^^^

Then, there is this really cool thing called "Google".
http://www.google.com/search?q=reading+dyno+charts&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7ADFA_en
http://www.google.com/search?q=reading+dyno+graphs&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7ADFA_en
http://www.google.com/search?q=understanding+dyno+results&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7ADFA_en

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

   Well said Brian.

As for the choice of gear for the dyno runs, it seems the most common approach with the older 5 speed bikes was to do the runs in 4th gear, and now with the 6 speed bikes most places use 5th gear.  What you will probably find is that the choice of gear has more to do with safety than anything else.  If you run any relatively recent Harley up to redline in top gear, the rear tire will be traveling at more than 140 mph.  For an example, at 6200 rpm my 2005 SEEG would be running 150 mph in 5th gear.  The Cruise Drive bikes would be doing even more than that at 6200 in 6th gear. The tires aren't rated for those kinds of speeds, and your average dyno operator isn't probably very keen on having a tire come apart on him at those speeds (could make for a lot of excitement).


Jerry

The gearbox is placed in the gear, that does not apply mechanical leverage either way.
1:1 ratio is the standard, which is about a 43-45 spark count.
Scott

[bigjohn]

You can tune an engine to whatever your specific needs are and also test cams and other parts via the information provided but you don't know who's gonna win the race til the rubber hits the road. To say otherwise is foolish.
B B

Guess I am foolish to think all the prepartion you do to ensure a win is done for chance. I was always taught you win before you race. As for guessing....I am usually right.
Why not dyno the gears ...that way you see your weak spots and strong spots.  I use a SERPT and have it piggy backed with a PC V. That way I have two different maps for each gear.
Gearing and tuning are two seperate issues.
I have the best of both worlds...I start with a strong engine.....then if I need too I have a 20 shot of nitros for those that seem to hang on...
Street racing and bracket racing are two different animals.
I knew this thread would go south................

[slacker2]

 Spiderman, you may not own a shop,however sounds like you really have a educated take on the subject !!!
I think that I found a decent engine builder/machinist/dyno guy in my state.
 I am expecting my new FLHXSE2 any day now.Thanks to you folks on this site I realized early to go outside of the Dealership for my engine build. Yeh I know it's a new big, one I always wanted and decided to Stage III right out of the box.
 To keep it brief, I met with the Engine builder and we are going to punch the jugs ten over, 10:5 pistons, polish the heads, change stock AC to a bigger K&N filter, TTS Master Tuner with a V&H 2-1 High Output pipe.
He has a good tuner rep. Has two dynos on site.

 SORRY: for going on, MY Question is to you and anybody that wants to put in,CAMS, what cam would work best in the 110 to produce those low end high numbers that you spoke of with my build ? it's either ask now or live with a bad decision for awhile. ~THANKS TO ALL THAT HAVE BEEN A GREAT HELP~

[Half_Crazy]

Guess I am foolish to think all the prepartion you do to ensure a win is done for chance. I was always taught you win before you race. As for guessing....I am usually right.

Amen. I'm sure if we looked at two bike's dyno charts... same dyno, same day... we could pretty much predict how things will go out on the road.

Researched enough to have read "War and Peace" before I spent a dime on performance. Wanted make sure that I got the results I was after. Have a pretty good idea what the results will be, not much guessing to it.

Some jackwagon on another Victory said to me once, "Nice bike, but mine's nicer".
I thought for a second..... Gee, if I had known there was a contest, I'd be winning it.


 

[Fired00d]

Spiderman, you may not own a shop,however sounds like you really have a educated take on the subject !!!
I think that I found a decent engine builder/machinist/dyno guy in my state.
 I am expecting my new FLHXSE2 any day now.Thanks to you folks on this site I realized early to go outside of the Dealership for my engine build. Yeh I know it's a new big, one I always wanted and decided to Stage III right out of the box.
 To keep it brief, I met with the Engine builder and we are going to punch the jugs ten over, 10:5 pistons, polish the heads, change stock AC to a bigger K&N filter, TTS Master Tuner with a V&H 2-1 High Output pipe.
He has a good tuner rep. Has two dynos on site.

 SORRY: for going on, MY Question is to you and anybody that wants to put in,CAMS, what cam would work best in the 110 to produce those low end high numbers that you spoke of with my build ? it's either ask now or live with a bad decision for awhile. ~THANKS TO ALL THAT HAVE BEEN A GREAT HELP~

You mention you have found a "decent" builder and if you are confident in his abilities he's the one you need to ask this question. He knows all the other components/modifications being done to the engine and should be able to match a cam up to produce what you are looking for. Many here will tell you if you don't know "how to" leave all the "components/modifications/build" to one person you trust.... starting to mismatch parts from different builds/suggestions/etc might not get you the desired results. Good luck w/your modifications and let us know how it works out.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[slacker2]

Oh, I'm going to go with what he comes up with. A smart man knows his limitations.
Thought a little homework never hurt anyone. Thanks.

[bigjohn]

Amen. I'm sure if we looked at two bike's dyno charts... same dyno, same day... we could pretty much predict how things will go out on the road.

 You have to watch gearing. Generally lower gearing will display lower numbers. Still the same output and power but does it a lot more quicker. Thats where the ET runs come into play.
 
Dynos are good tools ...they arent meant for who has the highest number or those dyno drags they have set up (they are usually a good 1 second slower in real track times).
As long as you use it for a tool and not bragging rights, they are very useful.

[Half_Crazy]

You have to watch gearing. Generally lower gearing will display lower numbers. Still the same output and power but does it a lot more quicker. Thats where the ET runs come into play.

Agreed.

I'm a life-long torque junkie. I will gladly give up peak horsepower for higher average torque across the tach. On the old set-up I had my choice between 2 exhaust systems. One made 125/125 and one made 120/130, I chose the latter. More "area under the curve". Horsepower wins drag races, but to me, torque rules the road.

[Spiderman]

Guess I am foolish to think all the prepartion you do to ensure a win is done for chance. I was always taught you win before you race. As for guessing....I am usually right.
Why not dyno the gears ...that way you see your weak spots and strong spots.  I use a SERPT and have it piggy backed with a PC V. That way I have two different maps for each gear.
Gearing and tuning are two seperate issues.
I have the best of both worlds...I start with a strong engine.....then if I need too I have a 20 shot of nitros for those that seem to hang on...
Street racing and bracket racing are two different animals.
I knew this thread would go south................

Why do people seem to see disrespect in words that are not intended as such. I stated in a couple of my posts that I knew there are site members with far more knowledge than myself. I was posting to the general membership as a whole which is basically folks who love to ride, like to twist the throttle a bit but are not racers, wrenches or expert tuners. I would say from your post that you are a bit of all three. Good for you. Folks like you help to flesh out a thread like this for those who really want to get into the weeds on a subject. Given what your post seems to imply, it would be nice to read what combination of parts you consider to be a solid dependable quick street engine. Also if you like, what you are using in your race bikes. I'm not sure what you mean in your last sentence. How has the thread gone south when we are discussing the variables which produce differing dyno numbers and what the charts themselves mean ? Lastly, I really don't care if Keith Ruxton built an engine, some people would be capable of putting what he'd built to use and some would not. And that's my point. The best dyno chart in the world doesn't mean you're going to win the race. You've gotta be able to ride the damn bike too.

B B

[bigjohn]

"You can tune an engine to whatever your specific needs are and also test cams and other parts via the information provided but you don't know who's gonna win the race til the rubber hits the road. To say otherwise is foolish."


Spyderman, when I stated about the thread going south, I guess I mis-understood what you were saying about being foolish. I thought that this was going to end up a pissing match. Thats the one thing that is bad about the computer age. You can only read the words and cannot decipher the meaning behind them. All in all this was a good post. I enjoying reading what other people have done and how their experiences worked out for them. I know a few times you guys have gave me good information and helped in fixing somethings. So with that in mind....please accept my sincere apology if I mistook your meaning. I guess we all should be thicker skined. I did agree with everything else that was being posted. There is always a lot of good information to be heard.
john

[strokerjlk]

Great thread going here.
my two cents.
timed dyno runs.
same everything.....same conditions,same bike ,same gear,same start/stop rpms,same throttle,same same same.
the only way to have a quicker time is ...more HP.

racing..tq vs hp
imagine shifting @ peak tq say 4000 rpms. then shifting @ peak hp say 5500 rpms.
now imagine if the peak hp @ 5500 rpms  flattens out and runs on out to 6500 rpms. so now you shift @ 6500 rpms and fall right back to 5500 rpms.

or forget it all and imagine a nitro harley shifting and making 500 hp @ 5000 rpms. better have bigger "ONES" than "A" Big dyno sheet.
of course this is always true in any race. big ONES win out.

[Steve Cole]

The biggest thing to remember is torque is what gets the load moving, so unless your going to drag race, the engine that produces more Torque in the RPM range that you ride it in is going to feel better than the one producing more high RPM HP! Think about it just for a minute without looking at a dynosheet at all. Where do you run the engine when you ride? Then take the dynosheet and tape over all the areas that are outside that range, then compare them. The one with the most torque in the range YOU run YOUR engine is going to feel the best and pull the hardest. I see way too many people getting sold on HP that doesn't happen until 4500 and up, while it's great for bragging rights at the bar and on the internet it doesn't do squat when your riding the bike for most people. Now if your plan is to build a race engine then higher RPM HP is what's going to win the race but I just do not see that happening for most riders on this site.

[bigjohn]

or forget it all and imagine a nitro harley shifting and making 500 hp @ 5000 rpms. better have bigger "ONES" than "A" Big dyno sheet.
of course this is always true in any race. big ONES win out.

Bingo..................whats that song..." no fear..no doubt....all in balls out". That says it all. Did you see that 2.8 dyno run on htt.....that would take huge ones.

[strokerjlk]

Bingo..................whats that song..." no fear..no doubt....all in balls out". That says it all. Did you see that 2.8 dyno run on htt.....that would take huge ones.

 yeah even on the street,it is the same. most times on 50-60 mph rolls the one that gets the jump is the one out front. it is then just a matter of who can stay in it the longest. most guys wont run past 110-120 mph anyway.
seen that video 
dead stop races.....where your tq. peaks dosent mean squat. your @ 6000 rpms in no time,then hp to weight wins out.

[Steve Cole]

dead stop races.....where your tq. peaks dosent mean squat. your @ 6000 rpms in no time,then hp to weight wins out.

You might get to 6000 in no time in first gear but it takes Torque to pull the weight of the package up to speed in the higher gears, so unless your a stop light racer a High RPM HP motor will lose hands down to a High Torque package on a heavy touring bike. Sure once your up to speed in high gear HP will win but getting there is another thing. Kind of like trying to state a dyno run is anything close to real world. I would love to see anything with an HD engine go out on the road and run from  starting point to ending point in the same ET as it does on the dyno. Most dyno pulls are 5 - 6 second from start to finish. So go put your bike on a flat road and be in 5th gear at 2000 RPM and open it up, then hold it until you reach 6000 RPM and tell me if it's anywhere close to 5 - 6 second. Most would be lucky to do it in 25 seconds! It's Torque that pulls it up to speed not HP, HP is what keeps it there!

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Torque being a "twisting motion", so the sooner and longer the twisting motion can be maintained, the greater the rate of acceleration.
Scott

[Arctic John]

I'm one of the uneducated guys here...but thanks to all of you for the comments. 

This site is awesome !!

[Spiderman]

I guess until everybody says it in their own words, we're gonna say the same thing 100 times.

B B

[bigjohn]

"it takes Torque to pull the weight of the package up to speed in the higher gears, so unless your a stop light racer a High RPM HP motor will lose hands down to a High Torque package on a heavy touring bike. Sure once your up to speed in high gear HP will win but getting there is another thing."

I think we all agree on that.

Kind of like trying to state a dyno run is anything close to real world.

Thats what I have been saying. Dyno's are good tools to use and thats about all. There are to many variances in dyno sheets when it comes to trying to live and die by the numbers. Everyone knows dyno's can be over inflated or under inflated numbers. Thats why I never get excited when I see numbers. Now show me the before and after on the same dyno, that is something to work with.

It's Torque that pulls it up to speed not HP, HP is what keeps it there!

Thats the text book answer..........along with what scott is defining as torque.
I think thats what we were discussing.

I think he was referring to hp/weight ratio. Which he is right when it comes to the track (hyabusa vs HD). Their ratio is ideal. (at least thats how I took it)

dead stop races.....where your tq. peaks dosent mean squat. your @ 6000 rpms in no time,then hp to weight wins out.

[strokerjlk]

Torque being a "twisting motion", so the sooner and longer the twisting motion can be maintained, the greater the rate of acceleration.
Scott

no fair Scott.......you know/knew one is dependant on the other

[Steve Cole]

Where your torque peaks means everything for a dead stop race! Let's look at how it turns out, torque rises to the point that it begins to fall as you climb through the RPM range. So if you have peak torque in the RPM range you ride then you are able to get the load moving as quick/fast as possible as Scott has said. If peak Hp is at 6200 RPM you have to get there first then keep it there so unless you gear the bike for racing your going to get your a$$ handed to you by someone who knows how to ride and has the Torque where it needs to be for the size and weight of the bike.

As a rule of thumb you shift at peak Hp as long as the gear change does not drop you down below peak Torque. This is the starting point to figure it all out but what most people miss it the simple fact that you have to get it all up to speed for the HP to carry it along. Look at any form of racing and you can see how long it takes to get up to speed but once they get there they can hold it. Indy cars make very little torque but great HP at 14,000 RPM but that's what a short stroke motor does. A HD engine is anything but a short stroke motor! Its built to make big torque at lower RPM's. How many here really race there CVO? Most are daily riders and may tow a trailer where big low RPM torque is going to rule. I tell most HD riders to take the dynosheet and fold it right at 4500 RPM, so one side shows everything below and the other everything above. The low side is what you use day in and day out, while the other side may get used once every few months. So which would you want to build for?

[strokerjlk]

back to drag race

so what would we rather have in a drag race? we were talking  time.. tq vs hp. @ rpm
same bike two diff motors one that makes  75 tq 100hp @ 6000 rpms? or one that made 50 tq 125 hp @ 7000 rpm.?

[Half_Crazy]

If I may, let's look at the two opposite ends of the HP vs Tq spectrum.

The GSXR 600 by Suzuki makes around 100 HP and 46 ft-lbs of torque, weighs 400 lbs wet, and will do the 1/4 mile in 11.0-something.

The way my bike was before it made 120 HP and 131 ft/lbs, weighs 720 lbs wet, and would get down the 1/4 mile in 11.7-something.

So... in a drag race, I would lose by almost 3/4 of a second.... However, when the two of us are riding together on the road it's a totally different story. He has no torque and needs to run the crap out of that thing to stay with me, even if I'm short-shifting. Every time we accelerate off a light or make a pass he feels like he's outgunned. In order to accelerate with any authority he must keep the engine in its "powerband" which starts at 10,000 RPM. My bike didn't have a "powerband" and made 100 ft-lbs by 2200 RPM.

I actually did play around with one of those on the street. On one occasion under hard acceleration he closed the throttle when in front of me... I couldn't hear his quiet bike... and I almost ran right over him! Unless he's willing to ride around at 11,000 RPM, he's playing catch-up all day long.

This is also why I'm not a big fan of the V-Rod. The fun starts at around 5000 RPM on one of those. Doesn't suit my riding style.

  

[strokerjlk]

If I may, let's look at the two opposite ends of the HP vs Tq spectrum.

The GSXR 600 by Suzuki makes around 100 HP and 46 ft-lbs of torque, weighs 400 lbs wet, and will do the 1/4 mile in 11.0-something.

The way my bike was before it made 120 HP and 131 ft/lbs, weighs 720 lbs wet, and would get down the 1/4 mile in 11.7-something.

So... in a drag race, I would lose by almost 3/4 of a second.... However, when the two of us are riding together on the road it's a totally different story. He has no torque and needs to run the crap out of that thing to stay with me, even if I'm short-shifting. Every time we accelerate off a light or make a pass he feels like he's outgunned. In order to accelerate with any authority he must keep the engine in its "powerband" which starts at 10,000 RPM. My bike didn't have a "powerband" and made 100 ft-lbs by 2200 RPM.

I actually did play around with one of those on the street. On one occasion under hard acceleration he closed the throttle when in front of me... I couldn't hear his quiet bike... and I almost ran right over him! Unless he's willing to ride around at 11,000 RPM, he's playing catch-up all day long.

This is also why I'm not a big fan of the V-Rod. The fun starts at around 5000 RPM on one of those. Doesn't suit my riding style.

  

I raced a busa, with my bagger. 1/8 mile. I turned a 8 and he turned a 7. I had him at 60 ft and 300 ft. after that he came around me like I was sitting still. 3/4-1 sec is eternity in the 1/8 th.
I did holeshot him though. pretty bad. dont think he really cared. he just didnt want to red light and lose to a geezer glide.

[Half_Crazy]

I raced a busa, with my bagger. 1/8 mile. I turned a 8 and he turned a 7. I had him at 60 ft and 300 ft. after that he came around me like I was sitting still. 3/4-1 sec is eternity in the 1/8 th.
I did holeshot him though. pretty bad. dont think he really cared. he just didnt want to red light and lose to a geezer glide.

It was the rider. I have seen stock 'Busas do 1.45 second 60 foot times... That's QUICK. My best 60' was 1.73

Personally, I much prefer 1/4 mile racing. In the 1/8 mile, just when it's getting fun, it's over. In the 1/4 I was going thru the traps at 5000 RPM in 5th gear. I'm hoping that with the 6700 RPM limiter and the bike making power out past 6200... I can stay in 4th all the way.

[Steve Cole]

If I may, let's look at the two opposite ends of the HP vs Tq spectrum.

The GSXR 600 by Suzuki makes around 100 HP and 46 ft-lbs of torque, weighs 400 lbs wet, and will do the 1/4 mile in 11.0-something.

The way my bike was before it made 120 HP and 131 ft/lbs, weighs 720 lbs wet, and would get down the 1/4 mile in 11.7-something.

So... in a drag race, I would lose by almost 3/4 of a second.... However, when the two of us are riding together on the road it's a totally different story. He has no torque and needs to run the crap out of that thing to stay with me, even if I'm short-shifting. Every time we accelerate off a light or make a pass he feels like he's outgunned. In order to accelerate with any authority he must keep the engine in its "powerband" which starts at 10,000 RPM. My bike didn't have a "powerband" and made 100 ft-lbs by 2200 RPM.

I actually did play around with one of those on the street. On one occasion under hard acceleration he closed the throttle when in front of me... I couldn't hear his quiet bike... and I almost ran right over him! Unless he's willing to ride around at 11,000 RPM, he's playing catch-up all day long.

This is also why I'm not a big fan of the V-Rod. The fun starts at around 5000 RPM on one of those. Doesn't suit my riding style.

  

Now just think what would happen if you could drop that extra 320 lbs of weight off the HD!

[Dr.D]

Thanks for the lively thread guys I did not see a southward turn. Spirited discussions among passionate fellows that all love motorcycles.

Please remember that in the stream of knowledge there will always be guys behind and ahead of you. IMHO. My questions were answered very well and I appreciate you all. Next time I hear a big dyno bragger I can rest that there is more to a ride than it's numbers. I love my 120ft/lbs and glad that I don't have to live at 6K+.

Love live the beefy fat over weight HD.

[bigjohn]

Thanks for the lively thread guys I did not see a southward turn. Spirited discussions among passionate fellows that all love motorcycles.
Please remember that in the stream of knowledge there will always be guys behind and ahead of you. IMHO. My questions were answered very well and I appreciate you all. Next time I hear a big dyno bragger I can rest that there is more to a ride than it's numbers. I love my 120ft/lbs and glad that I don't have to live at 6K+.
Love live the beefy fat over weight HD.

Steve answered your question:
"Think about it just for a minute without looking at a dynosheet at all. Where do you run the engine when you ride? Then take the dynosheet and tape over all the areas that are outside that range."

Thats how you pick your cam, then its your choice, built for how you like to ride. 

[Half_Crazy]

Steve answered your question:
"Think about it just for a minute without looking at a dynosheet at all. Where do you run the engine when you ride? Then take the dynosheet and tape over all the areas that are outside that range."

I don't know about you, but there's nothing to tape off. I use the whole tach. There is no set RPM where I shift, no range of RPM I avoid, I ride at 2000 RPM and I wind it out to 6200 too.

I want the broadest spread of power I can get... The most average HP & Torque from 2000-6500 RPM. The best compromise of low end grunt and horsepower upstairs. If there has to be a choice made, choose displacement... less compromising that way.

[bigjohn]

I am thinking he is just going to be using it as a cruiser, probably two up...maybe hitting 4000 rpm on entering the highway. Which is good ... i should be more like that.
Whats your thougts on building a sportster? My son wants to race it, I have been researching different builds for it, just dont want to get carried a way on something that would hurt him.

[Half_Crazy]

Don't know jack about Sportys, but I know what you mean about him getting hurt. My stepson bought a CBR 929RR. Nobody needs a liter sportbike, much less a 22 year old with less than a year on bikes. He never had any interest in bikes or so much as rode a dirt bike even though his real dad has 5 Harleys. Now he has a bike that scares ME and I've been riding/racing for almost 40 years.

Building a bike with your son should be a great experience. I can't wait to see it.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

I am thinking he is just going to be using it as a cruiser, probably two up...maybe hitting 4000 rpm on entering the highway. Which is good ... i should be more like that.
Whats your thougts on building a sportster? My son wants to race it, I have been researching different builds for it, just dont want to get carried a way on something that would hurt him.

Some of the fastest H-D's have been XL's.
Friends of ours had a 107", that we loaned our cross-ram dual-carb set-up. That car-tire bike, ran 8.58/152 mph at Maple Grove, PA........................over 10 years ago.
Scott

[bigjohn]

I havent forgot yours Scott, Just doing some research. I was going to give you a call next month and see how busy you were.
John

[Spiderman]

Carl Morrow and his son of Carl's Speed Shop fame have set a bunch of records running Sportsters. Four cams and straight pushrods have a bit to do with it. Carl by the way while at one point holding a world record for hp on a dyno with an EVO motor he built (something beyond 200hp) thinks Dyno numbers are pure bastardized bullchit. But hey, it sells parts so sure he's gonna get in the game.

B B

[bigjohn]

could you imagine that, 200 + hp on a sportster. Man there would be a lot of praying (especially if you would see my son ride, he has no fear yet). Guess you wouldnt have time to worry....once you hit it you would be down the track.
That would definately be a non forgiving bike.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

That 107"er that I mentioned, set the AHDRA class record that day,(the record in now quicker) and I believe it is still the quickest/fastest pull a 107" gas XL has ever made.
That bike made over 181 hp here, on our dyno, during a closed-door tuning session with those guys.
Scott

[Half_Crazy]

That bike made over 181 hp here, on our dyno

I guess you don't subscibe to the philosophy that "Dyno numbers are pure bastardized bullchit"...

[timtoolman]

But how many times do you see the winner of the race doesnt have  fastest time  As Bobbie  Woods says"its not how fast you go its how quick you get there "  how many national titles/records  has he got with this theory?  read his web site,  and torq is the only key factor that gets that  done,  Ill take big torque figures anyday over hp with these bikes, and im always looking for more of it, if you get the hole shot from a dead start and that massive torque throws you out there so quick, combine that with gearing/pulley changes ,and all  engine mechanics'  (class cuin size) being equal or close   the other guy with less torque  just maybe playing catch up the rest of the race,  just look at the modern diesel trucks being built, high hp numbers but higher torque and they are quick and can smoke quite a few sports car on the track.  There is a old american Iron magazine issue (last year i think, I have it somewhere) that has a sporster that spanks hyabusas  regularly at the track,   sure isnt hp  that makes that happen,   my build has great numbers as indicated  by the dyno sheet  120 trq at 4500, as per Steve Coles theory  folding the sheet in half!!!  love that, !!!    but man that torq always has my attention torq is the main body of  cake  and hp is the  thin layer of frosting
my theory of dyno numbers  is  it tells you that the parts you bought and put together are working as advertised

torque,torque torque,torque torque,torque

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

I guess you don't subscibe to the philosophy that "Dyno numbers are pure bastardized bullchit"...

No, as a matter of fact, I don't pay much attention to that guy.
Scott

[Half_Crazy]

If torque won drag races a CVO Dyna would spank a V-Rod, wouldn't it?

Don't get me wrong, nobody is a bigger torque junkie than I am. I build my motors for best average torque, but drag racing is a completely different ballgame than riding out on the street. Bikes I can crush in a 5th gear roll-on have spanked me badly thru the 1/4 mile.

Identical bikes: If the other guy makes more HP above 5000 RPM than I do... and he leaves at 4500 RPM and shifts at 6500... I don't have a prayer. He will never be at an RPM where I have any advantage. Nothin' but tail light for me.

However, mine is a much better street bike. Drivability, carrying a passenger, riding up a mountain, rolling into the throttle in high gear... he would have to downshift 2 gears to stay with me. That's where torque comes in handy.



 

[bigjohn]

identical bikes: If the other guy makes more HP above 5000 RPM than I do... and he leaves at 4500 RPM and shifts at 6500... I don't have a prayer. He will never be at an RPM where I have any advantage. Nothin' but tail light for me.

Thats the ticket. The best combo would be to find the best of both worlds.
Thats why I favor a torque curve that stays flat and brings the hp up to meet it (without losing much on the drop).
you want to see something interesting, look up dyno charts from hyabusa's and such. Thats amazing.

[Half_Crazy]

you want to see something interesting, look up dyno charts from hyabusa's and such. Thats amazing.

Those of us who love big ol' V-twins have to deal with the reality that our engines will never spin to 13,000 RPM, and even if they could they would run out of breath long before that. Those crotch rocket motors are big bore/shorter stroke w/lots of valve area and they spin to astronomical RPM. Maybe they only make 70 ft-lbs flat across the tach, but at 12,500 RPM that equates to 166 horsepower.

You could have that kind of HP and an equal amount of torque to go with it out of a V-Twin, but it would require HUGE displacement and would be seriously expensive. Those 155" R&R motors will take you beyond that, but it won't fit in your frame and you'd better have some deep pockets. One of those motors alone would set you back far more than the cost of a 'Busa. You'd have to want it pretty bad...

 

[bigjohn]

"You could have that kind of HP and an equal amount of torque to go with it out of a V-Twin"

lol...my wife would have me killed long before I got to that stage.
If you look at their sheet they have nothing unless they are in their powerbands. But when they hit the power band look at the jumps..thats amazing.

I will stick to the ole v twin, more comfortable for us old farts and really cant picture my wife with a thong hanging out on the back of a crotch rocket, I am sure she would have an issue with that......

[timtoolman]

big John she is going to kill you now anyhow  if she ever hears that horn blow

But i found the article from A.I.M.   Feb 2006.  Its a  92 sporster that does FLASH races    87.3 cubes, 126 hp doesnt list the trq.  best Et at that time  10.16 AT 135,  And spanks "busas" on a reg basis , and has done more up grades since,  cam  is a red shift 567 ,  Thata almost 9 seconds in a qtr mile!  this  sporster im sure it can kill a v-rod no problem , stock frame, swing arm ,  Tell me torq isnt a major factor here, to beat sport bikes in a qtr mile. you have to be quick , and its steet driven daily


And so if your guys say hp is the key to dyno happiness ?  are these proven and winning national record holders wrong? and your right because the dyno  results and hp is better?, someone has to prove  them wrong first and thats not going to happen is it?  No  a cvo dyna wont beat a v-rod,    but it could, and thats not a even comparason  could big johns  09  ultra beat a v-rod?  yep it will.

Going to the  70's muscle car scene, which was the quickest STOCK production  car made???  It was the buick GSX  grand sport,with a 455,
(as reported by motor trend magazine)  why?  510 ftlbs of torq @ 2800  and only 360  hp some say 400 hp,  They spanked the 426 hemis and 427's in  1/4 mile  races, It Doesnt matter what car or bike   it is the torque is the major portion of a winning  1/4  mile race

[Half_Crazy]

my wife would have me killed long before I got to that stage.
If you look at their sheet they have nothing unless they are in their powerbands.

My wife says if I blow any more money on this bike she's leaving. I sure am gonna miss her...

I was looking at the dyno graphs for that 155 on R&R's site. I think 160 on TQ at 3000 RPM would be WILD. I'm not sure if that much power could possibly be hooked to the ground. Tire shreader?

[timtoolman]

yep  mines gone??? wha hooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[strokerjlk]

If torque won drag races a CVO Dyna would spank a V-Rod, wouldn't it?

Don't get me wrong, nobody is a bigger torque junkie than I am. I build my motors for best average torque, but drag racing is a completely different ballgame than riding out on the street. Bikes I can crush in a 5th gear roll-on have spanked me badly thru the 1/4 mile.

Identical bikes: If the other guy makes more HP above 5000 RPM than I do... and he leaves at 4500 RPM and shifts at 6500... I don't have a prayer. He will never be at an RPM where I have any advantage. Nothin' but tail light for me.

However, mine is a much better street bike. Drivability, carrying a passenger, riding up a mountain, rolling into the throttle in high gear... he would have to downshift 2 gears to stay with me. That's where torque comes in handy.

well said

Tim remember RPM is still part of the game. tq /hp and rpm. still talking ET race's.
the higher the rpm....(as long as it is still efficient enough to build hp) the less tq. it takes to make that hp. so you make your peak hp at the higher rpms where you want to shift at. so there are a couple ways to go about it. either you build a higher rpm motor that is still making hp out to say 7000 rpm ,some are turning 8200 rpm with a peak hp at 7800-8000...or use enough cubes, compression and the right fuel. aka alkyl nitro. to make big hp at 5000-5500 rpms.
et racing is totally diff than street riding.
the reason that sporty doesn't mention tq. is because they don't care ...as long as it has enough to make the hp at rpm's who cares.
I bet you would be surprised if you knew exactly how much tq. it was making .
 light flywheels  smallish ci don't make a lot of tq.

[timtoolman]

true, Ill agree to most of that Jim  but then why is it the faster one doesnt win sometimes  when the quicker one does?   Just asking not being contentious

[Unbalanced]

Its the you been Otis'd theory the guy who is quicker shuts down sooner while in the lead and the other one then goes by            

[timtoolman]

never heard that , thought u didnt shut down until that old white line is crossed, any sooner than that ,  the rider needs beat about the head for not paying attention a few wack, wacks and that wouldnt happen again

[strokerjlk]

true, Ill agree to most of that Jim  but then why is it the faster one doesnt win sometimes  when the quicker one does?   Just asking not being contentious

reaction time,Launch,60 ft time, 300 ft time.
hooking up and reaction time.
when your MPH dosent look to match ET,you have to go looking for why.
I love low end tq. as well. but just as half crazy said. launch at 4500 rpm and never drop below 5500 after that. what you want is enough tq. to still be making hp.

[Unbalanced]

Tim,

That is on the street not the track        Happens a lot, but in regards to your real question if a guy gets off a lot faster and better 60ft or 300 ft that initial time getting off quicker cna be the difference of why he won vs. lost.   Not all the time is the raw HP on the top end enough to make back up that slow leaving the line.

[bigjohn]

e. tq /hp and rpm. still talking ET race's.
either you build a higher rpm motor that is still making hp out to say 7000 rpm ,some are turning 8200 rpm with a peak hp at 7800-8000...or use enough cubes, compression and the right fuel. aka alkyl nitro. to make big hp at 5000-5500 rpms.

Thats all the addition of nitros is doing. With the cam selection, comp ratio and shift points, nitros was the answer to making the engine more efficient with hp in the 4500 - 6500 rpm range. That way it is always shifting into the power band.

[Dr.D]

I think there is a lot more to enjoying a bike besides the big numbers or fast ETs. I like both but if I really needed it I'd go for the Boss Hoss @ 455hp and 455 ft/lbs.

I think a quarter mile race bike is so different than a nice powerful street bike that they are not comparable. My dyno sheet says 120 and it feels good so I like the number. I agree the numbers are tools and good reference points but as Paul Harvey used to say there is a "rest of the story".

[timtoolman]

nitrus  is a ungiven  unequal  factor, unless everybody is running it  on the track,, or turbos or a procharger to put things on the same playing field,   and it doesnt make a engine more efficient  it make a engine more powerful using many times the amount of fuel normally required.  thats  not efficient power  its just real time power

 My dyno nnumbers  says the same as your Doc, but i see many boss hoss's  getting beaten repeatly on the track  but that because of a different problem,   lack of traction.  hmmmm  a procharger  why didnt I think of that  earlier???

[Half_Crazy]

I remember a couple of years ago, my buddy, Joe had his bike set up just like mine. Same engine, same gearing, we weigh the same... That's him in the left lane in my sig pic.

The difference was the exhaust. His pipes had small diameter headpipes, so he had me by 10 ft-lbs up to about 4000 RPM. After 4000 my bike would breathe better and my peak HP was 10 more than he could make. The difference between the bikes in the 1/4 mile was .25 seconds and 7 mph. Even if he holeshotted me good, I could catch him and pass him. He managed to beat me twice, but that was either me having to bring down a big wheelie, spinning the tire, or missing a gear after he had a perfect holeshot. With my HP advantage upstairs, I'd have to screw up pretty bad for him to beat me thru the traps.

On the street, like powering off corners in the twisties or roll ons from low RPM, I could tell his bike had bigger balls and he'd walk me for a bit until I got her spinnin'. I would have liked his grunt and my horsepower.

Moot point now. I added six more cubes, all from stroke, this year.

[bigjohn]

Moot point now. I added six more cubes, all from stroke, this year.
You are going to feel that.

hmmmm  a procharger  why didnt I think of that  earlier
There is always time for another build, These things are great hobbies.

I think there is a lot more to enjoying a bike besides the big numbers

DR D you are showing great numbers, once you get use to grabing a handfull of that throttle you will realize what I mean. A lot of builds shoot for your numbers. The mis-conception that you cant have both are wrong. I tour on mine all the time, usually 15,000 mile a year. I know Tim and half crazy do too.

[timtoolman]

hmmmm a stg 4 107 with a nitrous assisted pro charger,  Ohhhhhhh   yeah, think id better change cams and lower compression.  that thing would run a dyno 

[Dr.D]

Bigjohn et.al. I appreciate the tutorial. I am safely learning the bike. I did some fourth and fifth gear full throttle roll ons' the other day on a back road and was doing 110mph in no time flat. It's good to have dual disc on the front of the fatbob to slow her down.

I wish I could have added more cubes but they told me at the Harley shop that they had no means to do so. I guess I'm done with the mods for now.

Have you all seen the JIMS 131 in action? Tell me about it. Do we need another thread for that?

[bigjohn]

Yea that 120 will run, just becareful.....those turns come up fast.
Not much experience with the 131's. I know they are a love / hate relationship. Some love them ..some hate them. For the price you could build a good engine and a backup for it. They were having crank problems if I remember correctly. A friend at our local shop installed one. He said it will set you back, I havent had the chance to see him run it yet.  Personally I think the 103's were the best engine harley built. I forsee building one in the near future. Got my hands full now with this sportster for my son. Its going to be a fun ride.

That was a good thread last time. A lot of knowledgeable people here on this site and I look forward to learning new things too.

[Spiderman]

Bigjohn et.al. I appreciate the tutorial. I am safely learning the bike. I did some fourth and fifth gear full throttle roll ons' the other day on a back road and was doing 110mph in no time flat. It's good to have dual disc on the front of the fatbob to slow her down.

I wish I could have added more cubes but they told me at the Harley shop that they had no means to do so. I guess I'm done with the mods for now.

Have you all seen the JIMS 131 in action? Tell me about it. Do we need another thread for that?

Dr.D
        Is there a reason you are only asking about a JIMS ? Lots of other very high quality high performance crate engines out there. No sense in naming what I think is the best as there's several folks on this thread who've already made some snide comments as to their opinion of my opinions (note, I'm not naming them nor am I dissing their line of BS) Anyway, do your homework, check around, find out who's who in your area, do some on-line research, call the company(s) you're interested in and speak with one of their tech folks. Lots of ways to find the right motor for you and ensure that you're getting quality and longevity for your hard earned dollars. Good luck

B B

[Dr.D]

El Spidy truth is I saw them in the Harley Screaming Eagle catalogue and the dealer mentioned them. I am truly ignorant of the others and that is why I am speaking of them, to spark discussion. I was sure there would be praises and damnation of the same motors.

They priced me around 9K for motor installed. My stock 110 is a grey/silver color and it would not match so there was another problem in  addition to $ I did also hear of some unreliability issues with the JMS 131.

[Spiderman]

El Spidy truth is I saw them in the Harley Screaming Eagle catalogue and the dealer mentioned them. I am truly ignorant of the others and that is why I am speaking of them, to spark discussion. I was sure there would be praises and damnation of the same motors.

They priced me around 9K for motor installed. My stock 110 is a grey/silver color and it would not match so there was another problem in  addition to $ I did also hear of some unreliability issues with the JMS 131.

There's a lot of crate engine Mfg's. Do some research. As I said, I'm not in the mood for the comments a few on this thread (and others) seem to need to hurl in my general vicinity. If you'd like PM me and I'll discuss my thoughts with you off-line

B B

[Dr.D]

Thanks BB as I said I'll look them up.

[hogasm]

Tim,

That is on the street not the track        Happens a lot, but in regards to your real question if a guy gets off a lot faster and better 60ft or 300 ft that initial time getting off quicker cna be the difference of why he won vs. lost.   Not all the time is the raw HP on the top end enough to make back up that slow leaving the line.

I watched that the other night on PINKS that was filmed in Va
The winner in a Mopar with 600hp beat out a guy with 850hp....much quicker off the line and held off to win
HP car was catching him in the end... if it was a 3/8 mile track the MOPAR would have lost

[bigjohn]

thats a good show, remember when it was for real pink slips? They have some nice cars on there. I love the sleepers that come on there and smoke everyone.