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[miken488]

I had the TTS Mastertune installed on bike and all worked well until.... I took my bike into the dealer for some service work. The HD digital technician could not communicate with my ECM so dealer assumed my ECM was defective and replaced. Now I cannot use the TTS to re-tune my bike as it was married to the old ECM. TTS tells me that I need to send them my new ECM, my old ECM, and my TTS dongle so that they can resolve. First of all I cannot retrieve the old ECM, as dealer returned it to HD. Any work around or suggestions, or do I have to repurchase a new TTS? Seems like a real PITA!

[Twolanerider]

I had the TTS Mastertune installed on bike and all worked well until.... I took my bike into the dealer for some service work. The HD digital technician could not communicate with my ECM so dealer assumed my ECM was defective and replaced. Now I cannot use the TTS to re-tune my bike as it was married to the old ECM. TTS tells me that I need to send them my new ECM, my old ECM, and my TTS dongle so that they can resolve. First of all I cannot retrieve the old ECM, as dealer returned it to HD. Any work around or suggestions, or do I have to repurchase a new TTS? Seems like a real PITA!

You are, unfortunately, well and truly hosed.  Though I would have a very pointed conversation with the dealership about ever replacing parts, especially significant parts, on my bike without letting me know about it first. 

[miken488]

I agree, although the dealer thought they were doing me a favor. They went into the ECM to check software on anti lock brakes and noticed that someting did not appear correct in that the cruise was disabled and the auto compression release was disabled. When they could not enable they assumed a defective ECM and replaced under warranty and told me as if they were doing something special. At this point while the MAP and pipes supplied by Fullsac were great, I will have to rethink rebuying the TTS vs. some of the other products which will allow you to unlock the tuner to work with a different ECM. Seems crazy the way TTS works, either they are trying to boost their sales or the product code is "old school"? I welcome any opinions out there.

[Twolanerider]

If the bike is an 09 or 2010 at least take a look at the EMS tuning package from a company called Revolution Performance.  End result given is as good as the "ride me tunes" we'll get doing data runs with the TTS, Thundermax or other similar options but we don't have to spend hours and hours getting there.

They don't have their product out for the 2011s yet.  But if that's not an impediment the product is worth consideration if you're going to make a change.  Unlike the TTS using its MT8 variant software EMS doesn't change the ECM in a way that alters how a dealership would service or see the ECM.

[mjb765]

Not that it matters to me anymore since I bought the EMS, but I thought HD could still read the ECM when a TTS was used?

[Twolanerider]

Not that it matters to me anymore since I bought the EMS, but I thought HD could still read the ECM when a TTS was used?

They could.  But....

Don't remember all the details but Cole wrote that with the advent of his MT8 files their use altered the ECM in a way that changed and diminished how the dealerships could access the ECM.

[NorEaster]

That would seem like a pretty significant disadvantage of the TTS Mastertune if it prevents dealers from being able to do any service on your bike that requires access to the ECM.

[miken488]

That's exactly right, a big disadvantage in that the dealer cannot service. Couple that with the TTS policy of forcing you to re-buy their product when the dealer changed my ECM has me re-thinking my options on the 2nd time around.

[MUFFMAN]

That's exactly right, a big disadvantage in that the dealer cannot service. Couple that with the TTS policy of forcing you to re-buy their product when the dealer changed my ECM has me re-thinking my options on the 2nd time around.

Its only a disadvantage if the dealer monkeys with the bike. If taking the bike to the Dealer for any reason should always go back to stock... as the TTS stores the stock setting for this purpose. I had a ThunderMax system on my last bike and it was overheating and making noises while I was  in NY.Although it was under warranty, HD dealers didn't even want to look at it . An Indy stepped up and found the cause. Harley is pretty anal about that chit. Less I buy off of HD for performance etc suits me fine.

[Twolanerider]

That would seem like a pretty significant disadvantage of the TTS Mastertune if it prevents dealers from being able to do any service on your bike that requires access to the ECM.

Again, I don't remember the specifics.  But it was written that the change to MT8 files was using areas of the ECM that hadn't been used before and that doing this altered in some way the ability of a shop to read or service the ECM.  The specifics should be requested of Cole.  He's a helpful sort and always takes questions about his product with good cheer so all concerned should check with him.

[Midnight Rider]

I wonder if this happens when you have a MT7 file in the ECM?

[Steve Cole]

Again, I don't remember the specifics.  But it was written that the change to MT8 files was using areas of the ECM that hadn't been used before and that doing this altered in some way the ability of a shop to read or service the ECM.  The specifics should be requested of Cole.  He's a helpful sort and always takes questions about his product with good cheer so all concerned should check with him.

Don't remember all the details but Cole wrote that with the advent of his MT8 files their use altered the ECM in a way that changed and diminished how the dealerships could access the ECM.

This is the kind of crap that is really sad, People that do not know the specifics should not make comments about something they do not know! The dealer can do all there testing just fine with a TTS installed, what they cannot do is reprogram the ECM. Everything else works, so if the compression releases are disabled you have to reprogram the ECM to enable them so my guess is this is why the dealer was having trouble. We do not diminish a damn thing, what we do is stop the dealer from trying to reprogram the ECM. If you want them to reprogram the unit you simply return the unit to stock prior to taking it in to the dealer.  Everything you need comes with the product to do just that.

Let's say the dealership did the same thing to an EMS unit where would you be? The same place with no more EMS program! Look we did what we thought was the best thing and that was to stop anyone from trying to program something into the ECM that was not correct. Each and every reprogramming system on the market is tied to the ECM so it's not any different anywhere else. Once you program the ECM the unit is married to that ECM, same for every reprogramming product out there. We need both the old and the new ECM so we can transfer the system from one to the other for a customer that has had an ECM failure, and we do it for no charge. Not sure what any of the other manufactures do, but HD just tells you you need to buy a new unit and tough luck.


The EMS unit does not allow you to do any programming nor does it allow you to do any diagnostics and as people are finding out it doesn't always work out of the box. Brian and crew are good guys but let compare apples to apples here.

[Twolanerider]

The specifics should be requested of Cole.  He's a helpful sort and always takes questions about his product with good cheer so all concerned should check with him.

This is the kind of crap that is really sad,

We do not diminish a damn thing,

Steve, first off I did specifically say I wasn't familiar with the details and didn't have firm recollection of what you'd said earlier.  Which is why I also suggested, twice, that questions should be specifically put to you.

The latter suggestion, however, did have the slightest bit of facete added because, well; you're just so damned predictable.  There are times it has seemed one might suggest the sky is blue and your response would be to say it wasn't TTS's fault.  Play nice and be one of the guys and you won't be (so easily) baited.

Honestly, whether you believe it or not or give a chit or not (and I don't personally care either way), I say the following with the utmost sincerity.  You often do hurt your own cause with the tenor of your responses to the smallest of things or the slightest disagreements or equivocations.  Nice guys (looking for customers) really do finish farther ahead.  And since I do respect the capabilities of your product I actually don't like to see its possible users potentially alienated by your sometimes pissy attitude.

[mjb765]

Steve, first off I did specifically say I wasn't familiar with the details and didn't have firm recollection of what you'd said earlier.  Which is why I also suggested, twice, that questions should be specifically put to you.

The latter suggestion, however, did have the slightest bit of facete added because, well; you're just so damned predictable.  There are times it has seemed one might suggest the sky is blue and your response would be to say it wasn't TTS's fault.  Play nice and be one of the guys and you won't be (so easily) baited.

Honestly, whether you believe it or not or give a chit or not (and I don't personally care either way), I say the following with the utmost sincerity.  You often do hurt your own cause with the tenor of your responses to the smallest of things or the slightest disagreements or equivocations.  Nice guys (looking for customers) really do finish farther ahead.  And since I do respect the capabilities of your product I actually don't like to see its possible users potentially alienated by your sometimes pissy attitude.

Well said.....the sad part is that you said you weren't sure (twice) and still got bashed!

[grc]

 

Leads me to an observation that will probably get me in trouble, but what the hey it won't be the first time.

#1.  Many times some of us try to answer questions for people when those most qualified to do so don't jump in first.  As in this case, we often put disclaimers in the responses indicating we aren't the experts and the person asking the question should consult the ones who are.  That happened in this case, and I see no reason to jump the respondent.  Mr. Cole, if you read 2lanes responses again I think you will find that he spoke highly of you and suggested you be the one to enlighten the original poster.  I realize we all have bad days, and we sometimes think we are being abused when we really aren't, but you might want to think about it and come up with a more civil response and maybe even an apology.

#2.  In cases where the customer didn't cause the problem, I don't see why a company couldn't make an exception and take care of him as a goodwill gesture.  What would it cost TTS, a few bucks for a dongle?  BFD.  The goodwill and positive word of mouth advertising would be worth a lot more than what you have now, an unhappy customer who is now considering competitive products.


JMHO  -  Jerry

[sadunbar]

This is the kind of crap that is really sad, People that do not know the specifics should not make comments about something they do not know! The dealer can do all there testing just fine with a TTS installed, what they cannot do is reprogram the ECM. Everything else works, so if the compression releases are disabled you have to reprogram the ECM to enable them so my guess is this is why the dealer was having trouble. We do not diminish a damn thing, what we do is stop the dealer from trying to reprogram the ECM. If you want them to reprogram the unit you simply return the unit to stock prior to taking it in to the dealer.  Everything you need comes with the product to do just that.

Steve...  Normally I can follow along when you educate those uneducated in the operations of your product.  But this time, the logic in your explanation escapes me...  

So let me talk outloud for a brief moment...  

It would seem the dealer tech noticed unexpected things within the customers ECM, notably the compression releases disabled.  The dealer attempted to enable the compression releases - and was unable to do so.  The dealer tech somewhat logically assumed the ECM was defective and replaced it.  The dealer tech then did the next logical thing - which was to send the 'defective' ECM to the factory for analysis.  

The reason the dealer could not enable the compression releases was presumably the presence of the TTS software.  Thus the presence of the TTS software hindered the ability of the dealer tech to service the customer's ECM.  The end effect of this sequence of events has caused the customers ultimate issue of having lost his ECM containing the TTS software.

Twolane suggested in his post that perhaps the TTS software in the customers ECM may have 'altered in some way the ability of a shop to read or service the ECM'.  Speaking as someone uneducated in the specifics of your product, this appears to be an accurate statement.

So I am a bit unclear as to your response to the issue - you chose to focus on the word testing and ignore the word service in your response.  

Of course, the end result is the customer did nothing wrong and the service tech did nothing wrong - and your TTS product did nothing wrong - but the customer is now hosed...  The only person capable of rectifying the situation appears to be you.  And, of course, you have no obligation to do so.  

And...since you chose to take a swipe at Brian and the EMS product ['The EMS unit does not allow you to do any programming nor does it allow you to do any diagnostics and as people are finding out it doesn't always work out of the box'] let me respond by saying my personal experience is that Brian would rectify the situation.

I have to agree with the comments of so many others...I don't understand the tenor of your communications with customers/potential customers.  I have to agree with the prevailing consensus of..... Play nice and be one of the guys and you won't be (so easily) baited.

[digga25]

Miken, I had the TTS on my 09 serg, and It was a 100% better than stock, but could not get rid of a few problems, off idle stumble, engine light on, no cruise, limited power with engine light on. I must admit I have 0 experience with tuning procedures or dyno machines. Although I  feel this product was a good fit for some, I had problems with it due to my inexperience.I purchased the Rev Perf EMS and it was a plug and play product. You dont have to do any vtune runs and connect the computer to the bike and blend and blend. The rev perf does all the work.If you change something,pipes,a/c,cams, the tuner just reprograms itself. Then JUST RIDE.

[HOGMIKE]

Miken, I had the TTS on my 09 serg, and It was a 100% better than stock, but could not get rid of a few problems, off idle stumble, engine light on, no cruise, limited power with engine light on. I must admit I have 0 experience with tuning procedures or dyno machines. Although I  feel this product was a good fit for some, I had problems with it due to my inexperience.I purchased the Rev Perf EMS and it was a plug and play product. You dont have to do any vtune runs and connect the computer to the bike and blend and blend. The rev perf does all the work.If you change something,pipes,a/c,cams, the tuner just reprograms itself. Then JUST RIDE.

You found a product that works for YOU!
That's what's nice about having choices.
There are some who never open anything on their bikes except the gas cap (and, believe me, some have problems with THAT!!!) Then there are others that like to rebuild their motors just for fun! And a whole lot of owners that fall in the middle somewhere.
I have to agree with the thoughts of "can't we all just get along"? (quote from a "famous" source)! LOL
My personal experience with Steve C. was fine, we got to an area that was over my head, and I had to say: "time out"...I'm lost! No problem, he answered my questions and cleared up some of my misunderstandings.
Personalities are always going to challenge some people!
JMHO

[Steve Cole]

There is a bit more to it if all you do is look around at Twolanerider posts. Each and every time TTS is brought up he jumps in and repeatedly says things he knows nothing about the TTS unit and proceeds to bring up the EMS unit along with his little shots at our unit. So after enough of these I've said something about it and I'm sorry if that rubs some of you the wrong way but enough is enough. Brain (Rev) makes a fine unit but it is not without issues and all anyone has to do is open there eyes and read the internet to find it. Does that make it bad unit, NO as it works for some right out of the box, but others it does not. You do not see me jumping into the threads about the EMS and bringing that up and pushing TTS units.

You are, unfortunately, well and truly hosed.  Though I would have a very pointed conversation with the dealership about ever replacing parts, especially significant parts, on my bike without letting me know about it first. 

They could.  But....

Don't remember all the details but Cole wrote that with the advent of his MT8 files their use altered the ECM in a way that changed and diminished how the dealerships could access the ECM.

These post bring responses like this all because of his misleading statements!

That's exactly right, a big disadvantage in that the dealer cannot service. Couple that with the TTS policy of forcing you to re-buy their product when the dealer changed my ECM has me re-thinking my options on the 2nd time around.

Then to come cover his butt he post this

Steve, first off I did specifically say I wasn't familiar with the details and didn't have firm recollection of what you'd said earlier.  Which is why I also suggested, twice, that questions should be specifically put to you.

The latter suggestion, however, did have the slightest bit of facete added because, well; you're just so damned predictable.  There are times it has seemed one might suggest the sky is blue and your response would be to say it wasn't TTS's fault.  Play nice and be one of the guys and you won't be (so easily) baited.

Honestly, whether you believe it or not or give a chit or not (and I don't personally care either way), I say the following with the utmost sincerity.  You often do hurt your own cause with the tenor of your responses to the smallest of things or the slightest disagreements or equivocations.  Nice guys (looking for customers) really do finish farther ahead.  And since I do respect the capabilities of your product I actually don't like to see its possible users potentially alienated by your sometimes pissy attitude.

First off he DID NOT specifically say he wasn’t familiar with details, that was only stated after the crap he started. The rest of his BS is just to try and make himself feel better and try to look better about what he has started here!  Its clear what he is doing if you just read what he says……” and I don't personally care either way”!

This isn’t the first time he has done this either, but this is the first time I’ve said something about it as its getting old now. Wouldn’t it be nice if you do not know anything about it to stay out of posting made up BS?  That would solve a lot of it right there and if I seem pissy about it I think all of you would be too with people like this spreading rumors about something they admittedly know nothing about. I am human and I do make mistakes but we try our best here to do all we can for all customers.

The dealer can do all normal services with our product installed, and had the instructions been followed can do everything possible the bike can have done. That is quit a bit different than what is being said!

The only thing that the dealer cannot do with the TTS code in place is reflash the ECM and that can be easily solve by following the procedure spelled out with the product. I only brought the EMS up AFTER Twolanerider pushed it into this conversation as he does each and every time. So I feel the comparison as to what would happen in the same case is valid. If the EMS really tuned itself as some of you are trying to say why is it that they have to be sent back on some bikes right from day one when the bikes will not tune out? The truth is NO unit can tune itself right for all combinations and they need to be tuned/calibrated around the parts that are being used. If Rev has a close calibration on hand, life is good but the same can be said most all reprogramming units. The end goal is the same for all............. a good running bike.

In this case the dealer did things that should not have been done, or at least should have asked the customer about. As such that is where the responsibility lies. Is that our fault NO, but we are being made out as the bad ones here! There are company policies in place here that we follow like most all company's do, without the old ECM that the unit is locked too, the code to unlock it is gone. I have not talked to the customer so I do not know what options he was told he has at this point in time. We do not force anyone to do anything.

[mjb765]

I am not going to get into a TTS vs EMS debate, but I do have 1 idea or maybe just an opinion. The customer that bought the TTS originally is now left out in the cold--regardless of whose fault it is. The dealer should have told him what they were doing so he could say--"no, don't do that, I have a tuner installed". But that is now water under the bridge. Bottom line is the guy is now out of a tuner--and we all know that ain't cheap. Would it be that big of a deal to give him a new dongle if he can prove the dealer replaced his ECM by showing the receipt from the warranty work? Or at least offer him a deep discount on a new one? Not just 10 or 20%--there is more profit than that built into that thing. That would be the ultimate in standing behind the product and any misunderstanding or "attitude" as some have called it would go away and you would be left with--"they did the right thing" which goes a long way in the real world. Just my $.02

[Robmay]

TwoWrongs don't make a right....just sayin.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I wonder if this happens when you have a MT7 file in the ECM?

Nope.

[Twolanerider]

I had the TTS Mastertune installed on bike and all worked well until.... I took my bike into the dealer for some service work. The HD digital technician could not communicate with my ECM so dealer assumed my ECM was defective and replaced. Now I cannot use the TTS to re-tune my bike as it was married to the old ECM. TTS tells me that I need to send them my new ECM, my old ECM, and my TTS dongle so that they can resolve. First of all I cannot retrieve the old ECM, as dealer returned it to HD. Any work around or suggestions, or do I have to repurchase a new TTS? Seems like a real PITA!

And to circle the wagons back to the beginning after Steve's predictable diatribe; Miken, sorry you're out the expense due to the dealership's mistake.  They should have done something to compensate.  Have any ideas yet how you'll proceed to get the bike dialed back in?

[beechflyr]

Wouldn't the nonstock code be seen when the dealer plugged into
the ECM? Wouldn't that alert the serviceman if he knew what he was
looking at? Probably undertrained as most help these days seems to be.
Frankly if my dealer messed up like this they would make the situation
right by procuring a new dongle for me.

[miken488]

Steve:  What would be your solution in my case where the dealer does not have the old ECM, it has been returned to Harley for warranty coverage. I find it hard to understand that there is not some sort of a work around or charge that could be paid to add a second license or pay for the additonal dongle?

[Boatman]

I am not going to get into a TTS vs EMS debate, but I do have 1 idea or maybe just an opinion. The customer that bought the TTS originally is now left out in the cold--regardless of whose fault it is. The dealer should have told him what they were doing so he could say--"no, don't do that, I have a tuner installed". But that is now water under the bridge. Bottom line is the guy is now out of a tuner--and we all know that ain't cheap. Would it be that big of a deal to give him a new dongle if he can prove the dealer replaced his ECM by showing the receipt from the warranty work? Or at least offer him a deep discount on a new one? Not just 10 or 20%--there is more profit than that built into that thing. That would be the ultimate in standing behind the product and any misunderstanding or "attitude" as some have called it would go away and you would be left with--"they did the right thing" which goes a long way in the real world. Just my $.02

X2
Help Miken488 out.

[sadunbar]

There is a bit more to it if all you do is look around at Twolanerider posts. Each and every time TTS is brought up he jumps in and repeatedly says things he knows nothing about the TTS unit and proceeds to bring up the EMS unit along with his little shots at our unit. So after enough of these I've said something about it and I'm sorry if that rubs some of you the wrong way but enough is enough. Brain (Rev) makes a fine unit but it is not without issues and all anyone has to do is open there eyes and read the internet to find it. Does that make it bad unit, NO as it works for some right out of the box, but others it does not. You do not see me jumping into the threads about the EMS and bringing that up and pushing TTS units.

So Steve, let's see if I am following your logic...

Twolane - a customer of the EMS product -  has made several supportive, endorsing statements of the EMS product...

And in your mind, the supportive statements made by Twolane of the EMS product is justification for you [in your mind]  - as a competitive manufacture - to make negative, misleading comments towards Brian's EMS product.

Fascinating thought process...   

[Keats]

I am in a situation where it looks like i have buy a third tuner for my bike.
After spending over $2000 for a SERT  and a  SEPST and coresponding dyno time, these are only as good as the tuner

Steve is not making me feel warm and fuzzy about customer service and doing what might be construed as fair.

So i guess that the EMS or the Zippers unit will have to do.

[grc]

One point that was made does touch on a feeling that I've had for some time now.  There are people on this site who constantly plug the EMS product even in threads that aren't asking for recommendations for alternate tuning products.  I've even commented once before about so-called glowing "reviews" of the product by people who have never posted before or since.  I have no personal stake in any of these companies or their devices, but when someone asks a question about a particular issue with a PC or SERT or TTS, I'd like to see folks actually answer the question if they can and not always turn the thread into a sales pitch for a competing product.  To each his own; my point here is that there is no one perfect solution for everyone, and a guy with a question about a TTS he already paid for doesn't necessarily want to hear a sales pitch about a different product for another pile of cash.

Regardless, this thread has gotten way off base from what it started out as, and it needs to be redirected back to the real question at hand.  What, if anything, can be done to help miken488 get his new ECM tuned with the device he already paid handsomely for and had screwed up through no fault of his own.  Blaming the dealership is the easy way out, but if the tech did not know that an aftermarket product had been used on the ECM then it's a little hard to put the blame on him. And considering the fact that most owners aren't experts on the details of the products they buy, I don't see where the customer had the responsibility to know that the dealership might need to do something to the ECM and that TTS made their product in such a way that it can keep the dealership from reflashing the ECM.  So at this point the dealer most likely doesn't feel responsible for the aftermarket product, and the owner isn't an expert so he obviously doesn't feel responsible.  The folks who made the decision, for whatever reason, to design their software so that the dealer couldn't reflash the ECM, which made the tech incorrectly assume it was defective, somehow think they also have no responsibility and are willing to suffer all sorts of negative publicity rather than make an exception to a "policy".  So be it.  Once more we learn that the buyer must always beware, and the guy with the least control of the situation is the guy who gets stuck with the bill.  Big surprise.  Also a big surprise, a company gets an opportunity to be a hero and get good press, and they blow it over some inflexible "policy".  Only this time it isn't just a customer talking to his buddies at the local bar, it's spread all over the internet.  Duh!

Miken488, I think you need to talk directly to Mr. Cole on the phone and let this thread die.  Further shots at TTS by us folks will not do your cause any good.  I think you also need to have a face to face with the manager/dealer about their part in this.  Maybe between the three of you a compromise that shares the responsibility and cost could be worked out.


Jerry

[lonewolf55]

You can get it upgraded to a two bike dongle. Just don't know why that would be TTS's responsability.

[mjb765]

Nobody is taking shots at the TTS as a product itself. It is a fine product and I have used it as well. The biggest problem I see here is that the company is just not willing to even make an attempt to help the customer. It's easy to blame the dealer and the MoCo, but we all know how hard it is to get soemthing out of them. But the vendor, who is regularly on this forum, should be stepping up and showing good customer service--even though his product is not to blame. I'm sure nobody is asking for free, but some kind of attempt to help out would be nice.

[HOGMIKE]

Nobody is taking shots at the TTS as a product itself. It is a fine product and I have used it as well. The biggest problem I see here is that the company is just not willing to even make an attempt to help the customer. It's easy to blame the dealer and the MoCo, but we all know how hard it is to get soemthing out of them. But the vendor, who is regularly on this forum, should be stepping up and showing good customer service--even though his product is not to blame. I'm sure nobody is asking for free, but some kind of attempt to help out would be nice.

Sure, it would be nice if you got something for free/cheap.
I guess I'm missing the logic here.
The dealer made a mistake, and you think tts should help him (dealer) out? Maybe a wholesale price?
Seems to me the dealer should step up and make "good customer relations" his priority!
OP said that he "had the tts installed" on his bike. Who installed it, who tuned it? Dealer? Sounds like someone else, if dealer installed they should have a record of it.
If it was me, I'd have a chat with my dealer. He did the work, not tts. JMHO, of course!
 

[mjb765]

Sure, it would be nice if you got something for free/cheap.
I guess I'm missing the logic here.
The dealer made a mistake, and you think tts should help him (dealer) out? Maybe a wholesale price?
Seems to me the dealer should step up and make "good customer relations" his priority!
OP said that he "had the tts installed" on his bike. Who installed it, who tuned it? Dealer? Sounds like someone else, if dealer installed they should have a record of it.
If it was me, I'd have a chat with my dealer. He did the work, not tts. JMHO, of course!
 

I do see your point...but let's face it--We are talking about a dongle....even wholesale would be better than nothing and a nice gesture. You know a lot of dealers have no problem losing the customer instead of taking responsibility for their mistake. TTS gets a lot of good press on this forum, so helping a forum member out wouldn't be such a bad idea. They won't lose any money at wholesale--or even cost.

[cahdbiker]

 When I bought my stage one setup from Steve he told me to make sure and save the stock map, which I did, so I could reflash it into the ECM ( I hope that is the right term ) in the event I had to take my bike in for any warranty issues. I thought that was the whole point of saving the stock map to your computer. I understand that if  you are out on the road and you breakdown then you would need to  tell the tech ahead of time what you have done so they don't go replacing any parts, or do any work (which they shouldn't)without your permission like what happened to Miken448. I can undererstand his frustration.  I think this site is great and I gather a lot of good info which I use and pass on to friends of mine, but the bickering is not necessary. Let's keep it a fun and informative site. CAHDBIKER

[dont57]

I am confused by all the finger pointing.  If someone is willing to by a product that allows them to reprogram the one component that is the heart and sole of the machine, I would hope they would educate themselves on the product first.  TTS mentions many times to backup your stock cal file and restore it if you are taking your bike to the stealer for service.  Was this done, does not sound like it.

Is TTS wrong for not shipping a dongle to help Mike out, ask your self as a business owner, so what happens when 1, 10, 100 and so on users do not read the manual and repeat the same mistake.  Can you hold the company that enabled you to program the ECM at fault when they clearly tell you how to avoid this situation.  Come on, take your blinders off and look at both sides of the situation.

I feel bad for Mike and it would be a show of good faith if TTS helped Mike out, but at the same time its not like TTS should be obligated when they clearly have provided the information and the ability to avoid this situation.

I have no skin in the game here, but, I have the product, I have had great results from the product, I have been ripped by the stealer and the MoCo before and my eyes are wide open.  Point is, every time my bike goes in for repairs that I can not handle,  I load the stock cal file back in to my ECM.

[RedDevil]

Personally, and I know this doesn't help anyone, but why would you buy a tuner that you have to put the ECM back to stock every time you take the bike in to the dealer for service?  That makes no sense to me.    When I take bikes in for service, they know up front that my bike is tuned with an SESPT, and 90% of the time (I forget the other 10%), if it's going in for something other than routine preventative maintenance, I take the interface with me and let the service writer know where the interface is located if they have to go into the ECM. I never would reflash my ECM back to stock before taking it in, because 1) my dealer is roughly 50 miles away, and I know both of my bikes don't like running on the factory flash now, and 2) because I use the SESPT software, the ECM "talks" just fine with the Digitech.  Plus my dealer, if they have to do something in the ECM, and I forgot to take it with me, will call me to tell me to bring the dongle in the as soon as I can so they can complete the work.  I am kind of surprised why the dealer didn't ask when he couldn't get the ECM to "talk" to him, that he didn't call the owner and ask if he was using some sort of a tuning device on the bike, before automatically assuming the ECM was bad. Sounds like this was a goat rope all the way around and unfortunately, the only person out the cash, or screwed because of this is the owner.  The shop thought they were the heroes by replacing the ECM and Steve, due to company policy, feels he needs to sell another tuner now.  Who's right and who's wrong here, I don't know, but somebody should step forward to do right by the customer....I'm just sayin....  

 

[firefighter156]

I am confused by all the finger pointing.  If someone is willing to by a product that allows them to reprogram the one component that is the heart and sole of the machine, I would hope they would educate themselves on the product first.  TTS mentions many times to backup your stock cal file and restore it if you are taking your bike to the stealer for service.  Was this done, does not sound like it.

Is TTS wrong for not shipping a dongle to help Mike out, ask your self as a business owner, so what happens when 1, 10 100 and so on users do not read the manual and repeat the same mistake.  Can you hold the company that enabled you to program the ECM at fault when they clearly tell you how to avoid this situation.  Come on, take your blinders off and look at both sides of the situation.

I feel bad bad for Mike and it would be a show of good faith if TTS helped Mike out, but at the same time its not like TTS should be obligated when they clearly have provided the information and the ability to avoid this situation.

I have no skin in the game here, but, I have the product, I have had great results from the product, I have been ripped by the stealer and the MoCo before and my eyes are wide open.  Point is, every time my bike goes in for repairs that I can not handle,  I load the stock cal file back in to my ECM.

dont57 you stole my thunder.  I feel bad for the guy, but seriously??  TTS doesn't owe him anything. The dealer screwed up and there is some culpability on behalf of the owner of the bike for not reading the manual that says very clearly to save the stock cal and certainly should have brought it to the attention of the service tech to be on the lookout if doing any ECM work.  IMHO the dealer is mostly at fault and the owner shares some responsibility.  I would be all over the dealer to work out a compromise not Steve Cole.  The Tech should not have assumed anything. Actually, I am embarrassed for the Tech that he didn't catch it and figure it out on his own.  The dealer should step up and get the damn ECM back.  Problem solved.

[Robmay]

I feel bad for the OP and I think you could what if all day about whether it's TTS or the dealers "responsibility". The bottom line? We all know that when we make such an alteration to our bike we run the risk of voiding the warranty. Chalk it up to experience, buy another tuner, whichever you prefer,  and move on.

[Steve Cole]

Well I see this has gone on just as expected while I've been gone. The point has been made both ways over and over again. The customer has an issue with his dealership and now it's a TTS issue. We offered the way we handle it, which is very simple but the customer says the dealership cannot do it. So now you guys want to make it a TTS issue. There is no way that anyone at TTS is at fault nor should we be blamed, yet that's what's going on here.

What options the customer was offered from the office I cannot say as I have never spoken with him, but what I can tell you is that we go out of our way to help our customers when it is clearly not our products fault. If he would like to contact me he knows where I am, but until that happens I cannot even go talk with the office about what was said.

[Robmay]

Well I see this has gone on just as expected while I've been gone. The point has been made both ways over and over again. The customer has an issue with his dealership and now it's a TTS issue. We offered the way we handle it, which is very simple but the customer says the dealership cannot do it. So now you guys want to make it a TTS issue. There is no way that anyone at TTS is at fault nor should we be blamed, yet that's what's going on here.

What options the customer was offered from the office I cannot say as I have never spoken with him, but what I can tell you is that we go out of our way to help our customers when it is clearly not our products fault. If he would like to contact me he knows where I am, but until that happens I cannot even go talk with the office about what was said.

I think you may want to re-think lumping "you guys" all in the same box. I counted a third of the replies in this thread that agreed that TTS was not at fault...

[grc]

.....................................................
The dealer should step up and get the damn ECM back.  Problem solved.

Agreed.  And if it makes anyone feel better, the dealer will likely be charged back for the warranty charges for the new ECM since the original that was returned to Harley will be checked, and unlike that dealership those folks at Delphi will be smart enough to figure out it was modified and thus not their responsibility.  So the dealer tech was a dumbass; big surprise.  Pretty hard to sue the bastards, since the modifications made possible by that aftermarket company's product were illegal.  I wonder if a judge would be sympathetic when you claimed you were violated when a dealer took your illegally modified part and replaced it with a brand new legal part?

Regardless of legally defined responsibility, there was a time in this country when the best companies had a policy of "the customer is always right", even when the customer was definitely not right.  Now we have the modern philosophy of ducking responsibility whenever possible, as exemplified by companies like the MoCo.  I hate to think the few bucks it might cost to help this customer is going to break either company involved.  A Harley dealership not caring about their public image isn't something new or even newsworthy; I'm somewhat surprised that the other company involved would allow this to be blown up into some really bad PR.  And btw, I'm still totally amazed that a representative of a company feels it's perfectly OK and good PR to bash site members on a public forum for just stating their opinions, then taking cheap shots at those same individuals in another thread (yes I saw the comment in that other thread today).  Makes a person rethink just how much he wants to recommend that product in the future. 


Jerry

[ThunderBueller]

This has been interesting to say the least. I just picked my bike up from the dealer after they tuned it using the TTS. I'm still glad I got it...

Now if you guys wanna hear cranky just try getting into it with the owner of RB Racing exhaust. I have one of his pipes and love it but man he could use a course in customer relations.... 

[mjb765]

Just be clear on my comments...I never bashed or spoke bad of the TTS product. I simply stated that it would have been good gesture to help the customer out--regardless of who was at fault. Finger pointing or blame at this point won't help the owner out.  I would think the reputation alone or people saying "TTS stood up and helped out even though they weren't to blame" would have been worth giving up the profit on one dongle. That goes a long way in the real world. Did I ever blame them or say they were wrong for not helping out---no--but the "WOW" and the surprise if they did would have been really nice to hear. Almost like when an HD dealer goes above and beyond to help someone they have no obligation to help, or the shop that stays late to finish a bike for a customer---you are much more likely to recommend those people than the ones that never bend. Were those types wrong--NO--but the ones that do the extra by the customer get the praise.

[mwg]

I'm somewhat surprised that the other company involved would allow this to be blown up into some really bad PR.  And btw, I'm still totally amazed that a representative of a company feels it's perfectly OK and good PR to bash site members on a public forum for just stating their opinions, then taking cheap shots at those same individuals in another thread (yes I saw the comment in that other thread today).  Makes a person rethink just how much he wants to recommend that product in the future.  
Jerry

+1..  

I'm glad I didn't see this thread before I pulled the trigger on the TTS product several months ago.. it would have definitely changed my mind. I emailed the rep a few months ago concerning VTune and was basically told to read the manual. I believe TTS is a good product but the rep sure isn't helping the company's image.

Don't misunderstand me I don't think TTS is responsible for the OP's situation but they could step up and help the guy out.. and it would go a long way in showing good faith to other potential buyers.

[faceracer]

How does the MOCO cooperate feel about techs. replacing parts under warranty that aren't bad? You would think they would return the original and let the owner reinstall his tts map and provide the dongle for any further work? Doesn't cost anyone anything but the shipping to where ever they sent the original ecm? seems like a no Brainer to me? 

[grc]

How does the MOCO cooperate feel about techs. replacing parts under warranty that aren't bad? You would think they would return the original and let the owner reinstall his tts map and provide the dongle for any further work? Doesn't cost anyone anything but the shipping to where ever they sent the original ecm? seems like a no Brainer to me? 

I'm pretty sure they handle it the same way the automotive companies do, they charge the entire warranty claim back to the dealership.  As for the part itself, I suppose if the dealer requested it and paid the freight they might return it.  Never ran into a dealer in my business who wanted the old part back after a chargeback, why waste more money shipping a used part back?  In this case, I'm willing to bet if that dealer would request the ECM be returned to him that they would do so.  One really good reason for not calling and asking is it would make the warranty chargeback a certainty instead of a possibility.  So there is a financial disincentive for the dealer to call up and admit the mistake.


Jerry

[jcd520]

question-------------Since the first thing you do when installing the TTS is save the original HD tune wouldn't having that info and forwarding it to Steve allow him to fix the problem? Just asking.

[Steve Cole]

I am not here to lump anyone together, those who are doing it know who they are. As I've said over and over I have never talked with the customer so I do not know what he was or was not told his options were from the office. We have a standard way to handle this and we are setup to do it that way, so I'm pretty sure that would be what he was told.

Now if you sit back and look this thread over there is plenty going both ways. People are quick to point out that TTS should step up and help the OP out. Should that not be done by the dealers that caused the issue? How about the people that jump in and made misleading comments about how the TTS product works? This just goes to getting thing the way they are now. This is just why I've stepped into this debate. People who know nothing about a product start making things up and it runs wild on the internet. Next time something happens, again not TTS product fault, someone remembers and old thread and pulls bit and pieces of BS about it out to convince someone else how it works and then again they are dead wrong about it. When it becomes the same person over and over again it gets old.

[grc]

Hate to tell you Steve, but your stuff gets really old too.  And just because your "office staff" blew the guy off instead of you doing it personally doesn't exactly cut much ice.  You're the guy who came on this site to promote and sell your product, and you're the guy who should step up when a member asks for help.  If you don't feel the need to try to make contact (you could PM the guy if you cared), and he decides to just walk away and buy a competing product, I don't see how that makes you the winner here.

The problem probably isn't your "fault".  Since I'm not aware of why you folks changed your system such that a dealer supposedly couldn't flash the ECM, I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and blame the dumb ass at the dealership for the entire issue.  Guess what, that so-called technician isn't losing any business over this, and I doubt that dealer is either.  Life isn't fair, and then we die.


Jerry

[Fullsac Performance]

I agree, although the dealer thought they were doing me a favor. They went into the ECM to check software on anti lock brakes and noticed that someting did not appear correct in that the cruise was disabled and the auto compression release was disabled. When they could not enable they assumed a defective ECM and replaced under warranty and told me as if they were doing something special. At this point while the MAP and pipes supplied by Fullsac were great, I will have to rethink rebuying the TTS vs. some of the other products which will allow you to unlock the tuner to work with a different ECM. Seems crazy the way TTS works, either they are trying to boost their sales or the product code is "old school"? I welcome any opinions out there.

Miken
I'm a little late and just catching up on this situation. If I have it right, you bought and installed one of my Stage I X Pipe kits with TTS, took it to the dealer and
they jacked your ECM and wiped out my fuel map? That pisses me off. When you run my parts, I have a sincere interest in your bike running its best. It's you guys
on these rolling Fullsac product showcases that make my phones ring. I need you back in action spankin all your buddies who havn't bought my stuff yet. 
Call me and I will hook you up with a new TTS cartridge and get you back on the road.


Steve George
Fullsac Performance

[MUFFMAN]

Miken
I'm a little late and just catching up on this situation. If I have it right, you bought and installed one of my Stage I X Pipe kits with TTS, took it to the dealer and
they jacked your ECM and wiped out my fuel map? That pisses me off. When you run my parts, I have a sincere interest in your bike running its best. It's you guys
on these rolling Fullsac product showcases that make my phones ring. I need you back in action spankin all your buddies who havn't bought my stuff yet. 
Call me and I will hook you up with a new TTS cartridge and get you back on the road.


Steve George
Fullsac Performance

This is the type of service that only  a good Company like Fulsac delivers. In my business, we provide a service to supply & install various Construction Components. In the event something goes astray and we have a bad run of material, we look after it and are thereby reimbursed from the manufacturer. In this case , the manufacturer(TTS) wasn't at fault. Good job at stepping up to the plate Steve.

[mjb765]

Miken
I'm a little late and just catching up on this situation. If I have it right, you bought and installed one of my Stage I X Pipe kits with TTS, took it to the dealer and
they jacked your ECM and wiped out my fuel map? That pisses me off. When you run my parts, I have a sincere interest in your bike running its best. It's you guys
on these rolling Fullsac product showcases that make my phones ring. I need you back in action spankin all your buddies who havn't bought my stuff yet. 
Call me and I will hook you up with a new TTS cartridge and get you back on the road.

Steve George
Fullsac Performance

Now that's what I have been talking about!!!! This clearly was not Fullsac's fault either--but Steve George is going to help.

That's why when it comes to exhaust and tuning recommendations, Fullsac is always at the top of everyone's list!!

It's just a shame the folks at TTS didn't do it first--one of their resellers had to step up to the plate.

[SBB]

Miken
I'm a little late and just catching up on this situation. If I have it right, you bought and installed one of my Stage I X Pipe kits with TTS, took it to the dealer and
they jacked your ECM and wiped out my fuel map? That pisses me off. When you run my parts, I have a sincere interest in your bike running its best. It's you guys
on these rolling Fullsac product showcases that make my phones ring. I need you back in action spankin all your buddies who havn't bought my stuff yet. 
Call me and I will hook you up with a new TTS cartridge and get you back on the road.


Steve George
Fullsac Performance

Damn.
Now there is customer service.

I need you back in action spankin all your buddies who havn't bought my stuff yet.

And it's customer service with a great attitude!
That is priceless.

SBB

[RedDevil]

Even though I'm not a Fulsac disciple, this is the sign of a company that truly believes in customer service!!!  Totally out of his wheelhouse, as they are really only responsible for the pipe in this case, but Fulsac stepped forward and made the OP/customer happy.  That attitude, even to an old curmudgeon like me, goes a long way.  Way to go Fulsac/Steve George.  

[miken488]

I have been standing by watching this thread go in all directions, and find it interesting. Thanks for the input from all sides.
Let me make a few final comments & observations since I started this, and then perhaps we can let this die. RIP
1. First of all to Steve George @ Fullsac, you are the man! I appreciate your offer and your strong attitude towards great products and customer service to match. Thanks, I will let you know if I cannot resolve the situation as noted below.
2. To all of the guys who have installed the TTS product, be forewarned about the dealer not being able to read or adjust your ECM. Yes, I knew to reflash my ECM back to stock when returning to the dealer. My mistake on not doing this, but I dropped it off for a braking issue and did not predict that they would go into the ECM to check ABS software, and then assume that my ECM was defective. Furthermore, if I reflash back to stock my bike will run like chit given the modifications, so this is not a very practical option.  Given that the bike was under warranty they changed it out and thought they were doing me a favor. Through extensive work by the dealer I am in hopes that I will get the original ECM back in the next day or two.
3. With respect to TTS, I contacted TTS via e-mail and received the standard answer back from Vickie M. about returning the old ECM along with the new. When I advised her of my situation and asked what options they could present given my inability to reacquire the old ECM, she never responded back to my e-mails or phone calls. I was never asking for something for nothing, just some reasonable work around that might be less than repurchasing again.
4. More options become available everyday in terms of competitive products that offer more features and benefits than TTS. I was please with my TTS product, my Fullsac pipe and map, and just thought that there might be a way to go above and beyond to keep me as a customer. Clearly TTS did not see this an an opportunity to step up and meet me half way, they would not even return my calls or e-mails.

[cvobiker]

Hey Steve !!! There is a message here and I hope you Learn from Fullsac,,,He is stepping up to the plate to support YOUR product. He took the bull by the horns and did it right... I love Fullsac, but a little disappointed that he is using your product with his package. I for one would like to see Fullsac add one more vendor, i.e. Rev Performace to his package and let folks have a choice in the ECM Tuning side..... Kudos to Fullsac.  

[Robmay]

Miken,

Excellent reply. Sheds a whole new light on the subject for me. I'm glad Steve George at Fullsac is stepping up/in. He is a great guy to work with. Helped me a ton with my V-Tune via phone calls.

[mwg]

 

Now that's what I have been talking about!!!! This clearly was not Fullsac's fault either--but Steve George is going to help.

That's why when it comes to exhaust and tuning recommendations, Fullsac is always at the top of everyone's list!!

It's just a shame the folks at TTS didn't do it first--one of their resellers had to step up to the plate.

... That's an awesome offer Steve!

[sadunbar]

Damn.
Now there is customer service.

And it's customer service with a great attitude!
That is priceless.

SBB

x2   

[Twolanerider]

Just read a PM saying it was worthwhile to check back in this thread.  Certainly was.

Glad to read the rider has options again.  Hope he quickly finds whatever is the easiest solution to get him back on the road in good order.

Major props to Fulsac for once again showing the colors as a vendor who actually likes their customers rather than simply seeing them as a revenue stream.  That kind of attitude and assistance will make them a lot more cash over time; and they'll deserve it.

[grc]

Now that's good old fashioned customer service.  Way to go Mr. George!  It's very refreshing to see that some folks really do "get it".  I've been impressed with the way you do things since you first started posting on the site, and your offer in this instance is very refreshing but not totally unexpected considering the way you run your business.  As a famous alien used to say, may you live long and prosper sir.


Jerry

[ultrafxr]

Kudos to Steve George.   

[Fullsac Performance]

Thanks everyone for your replies. This forum has been very good to me. The CVO group is the cream of the crop. This unfortunate situation has presented
an opportunity for me to help out and I wasn't going to pass it up.

Miken, here's my some what biased two cents. In my opinion, accessing your stock Delphi ECM with TTS is still your most sophisticated and reliable option. I realize most CVO owners don't have the time to invest researching all the technical details and the depth that the TTS product provides when compared to other fuel management options. That's my job. I too have had fantasies about a smart box, an auto tuning device that concered all tuning challenges. How bitchen would it be to go in the dyno room and start changing parts back to back and have the ECM magically nail the AFR no matter what I did! So far, I still dreaming. The current crop of smart boxes are comparable to buying a pair of socks from Walmart. Fits all types of feet size 6-12. Some of your guys are 13s and still growing. I know the socks can be sent back and tossed in special dryer for a while or stretched a little bigger if needed, and for some this will work fine. What if you want to handle it your self? If your magic box is locked and your toes are blowing out the end of your socks, your going ride slow and look like a Hobo. Simplicity is a strong marketing tool. As a tuner I can tell you, its not that simple. If I'm locked out and cant adjust the ECM to optimize the engine to my preferences and needs, I'm simply screwed. If you want to look sharp and ride safe, visit a tailor and tune your Harley with TTS. I appreciate your business.

Steve George
Fullsac Performance

[miken488]

Steve: Well stated and I cannot disagree with a thing that you said. My HD performs well with the TTS, your map and pipes, and I was not looking for options or to change until I became screwed and it looked as if I was going to need to start over. Thanks again for your great advice, products, and your willingness to do the right thing - Kudos to you & Fullsac Performance!

[Midnight Rider]

Glad to see that this issue has a potential resolution, and that Fullsac has stepped up, even though it is not really their responsibility, and offered to help come up with something that will make everyone at least satisfied.

[rheiner]

The new dongle is probably the best advertising & marketing investment Fullsac will make all year. Got to give credit to Steve; he's a smart businessman too. I wonder how many more dongles TTS would have sold over time if it would have done the same as Fullsac? No doubt many times more than the cost of a single dongle and a great favorable reputation to boot. 

[CVORick]

I am happy that miken488 has a resolution to his misfortune.  This was his first and it looks like his only posting on this forum.  Often when I read a first post it is followed by a not so pleasant response.  I am not real experienced with motorcycles and tuning, but having mostly silver colored hair there is one thing I am sure about. That being, "Nothing is ever as it appears".

[strokerjlk]

Nice gesture Fullsac.
maybe I missed the reason you supplied a mt8 canned map.
this Mt8 BS is not setting well with MOCO. Maybe you should consider only providing mt 7. Maps. Kinda Takes the liability off you and  leaves it where it belongs....on the designers.
if you supplied a mt 7 and then it was changed to mt8 not much you can do about that.

[hdandrc]

Seems to me that the customer should have informed the dealer what he has done to the bike so they have all the info. If they had known about the TTS calibration all this would not have happened. I think the dealer went all out to fix the issue and as far as replacing parts under warranty and not asking the customer for permission that is a lot of bull. Dealers and techs don't have time to play "mother may I" games. Get the bike on the lift, get it fixed, and out the door and on to the next job. I bet the next time he takes the bike in for work he still won't have a H-D calibration in the ECM and this is going to happen again. As customers don't you want the tech working on your bike to make sure it haas all the latest updates on the ECM and radio software? I check all this on any bike I do a service on and I am not going to call the customer and ask his permission to upgrade the radio software as an example. For one thing he probably won't be available to talk until he gets off work, then he will want to spend a half hour asking questions about the reflash on the radio and god knows what else.

In summary I think dealer did what he should have done and the customer screwed up by not passing along the info that he was using a tuning device or not putting the H-D calibration back in. H-D now knows he had modded his ECM as the Techlink gathers all the info on a bike and every day uploads to H-D corporate tech services. Big Brother IS watching you.

[sadunbar]

Seems to me that the customer should have informed the dealer what he has done to the bike so they have all the info. If they had known about the TTS calibration all this would not have happened. I think the dealer went all out to fix the issue and as far as replacing parts under warranty and not asking the customer for permission that is a lot of bull. Dealers and techs don't have time to play "mother may I" games. Get the bike on the lift, get it fixed, and out the door and on to the next job. I bet the next time he takes the bike in for work he still won't have a H-D calibration in the ECM and this is going to happen again. As customers don't you want the tech working on your bike to make sure it haas all the latest updates on the ECM and radio software? I check all this on any bike I do a service on and I am not going to call the customer and ask his permission to upgrade the radio software as an example. For one thing he probably won't be available to talk until he gets off work, then he will want to spend a half hour asking questions about the reflash on the radio and god knows what else.

In summary I think dealer did what he should have done and the customer screwed up by not passing along the info that he was using a tuning device or not putting the H-D calibration back in. H-D now knows he had modded his ECM as the Techlink gathers all the info on a bike and every day uploads to H-D corporate tech services. Big Brother IS watching you.

So what?

If "Big Brother" supplied a motorcycle that did not require a tuner to run properly, there would be no need for "Big Brother" to sell tuning devices, there would be no need for dealers to have dyno's and there would be no need to "Mod" the ECM....     

[CVORick]

Seems to me that the customer should have informed the dealer what he has done to the bike so they have all the info. If they had known about the TTS calibration all this would not have happened. I think the dealer went all out to fix the issue and as far as replacing parts under warranty and not asking the customer for permission that is a lot of bull. Dealers and techs don't have time to play "mother may I" games. Get the bike on the lift, get it fixed, and out the door and on to the next job. I bet the next time he takes the bike in for work he still won't have a H-D calibration in the ECM and this is going to happen again. As customers don't you want the tech working on your bike to make sure it haas all the latest updates on the ECM and radio software? I check all this on any bike I do a service on and I am not going to call the customer and ask his permission to upgrade the radio software as an example. For one thing he probably won't be available to talk until he gets off work, then he will want to spend a half hour asking questions about the reflash on the radio and god knows what else.

In summary I think dealer did what he should have done and the customer screwed up by not passing along the info that he was using a tuning device or not putting the H-D calibration back in. H-D now knows he had modded his ECM as the Techlink gathers all the info on a bike and every day uploads to H-D corporate tech services. Big Brother IS watching you.

Damn, your slow to the party.  Just trying to stir the pot?  Troll maybe?

[mjb765]

I thought since Steve at Fullsac stepped up and did the right thing by the customer, this was over.



Or did we now start  

I've always wanted to use that one

[Twolanerider]

Seems to me that the Yankess vs Red Sox rivalry has lost its luster.

So true.

[CVOStreetglide]

I really hate to bring it up BUT Harley MAY present the customer with a bill since what went on turned out NOT to be a Harley or Warranty issue. 

I truly hope not but.........

[Twolanerider]

I really hate to bring it up BUT Harley MAY present the customer with a bill since what went on turned out NOT to be a Harley or Warranty issue.  

I truly hope not but.........

Harley's charges would actually be to the dealership.  And those aren't so much a "bill" as a hand that reaches out and takes what it wants via accounting.  The dealership may attempt to bill the customer.  But since the work done causing the ECM to go away was unrequested or unconfirmed to begin with there is a lot of room for discussion there.

[CVOStreetglide]

Harley's charges would actually be to the dealership.  And those aren't so much a "bill" as a hand that reaches out and takes what it wants via accounting.  The dealership may attempt to bill the customer.  But since the work done causing the ECM to go away was unrequested or unconfirmed to begin with there is a lot of room for discussion there.

Yea but "The Motor Company" can always void his warranty as it pertains to the ECM and any perceived damage that was done.  The only savior will be Magnuson--Moss Warranty act IF any thing is done.

Regards

Jerry

[Razorback]

Wow, that was a lot of reading, first off I would assume that the tts has some pop up box warning you to either save the stock map or explain that the new mt8 files will change the operating system. Even with these warning things can go wrong when one party (dealer) is working with a second party's (tts) system. I suggest to stick with one or the other. Either the shop that can sell and service the tts stuff or go with the tuner the dealer offers to sell and service.
However, I don't see where the dealer did anything wrong here, after all, they are a Harley-Davidson dealer and not a tts dealer. They are trained (hopefully) to work with what they know and sell and shouldn't have to learn every little detail about every aftermarket device out there, not that changing the operating system is a small thing, it is a relatively huge deal and has been made out here by the tts company to be almost irrelevant when it is not. It has been stated here by the owner to have been done this way to keep others out. So I take this that access could still be had by dealers while retaining all the great mt8 features.
As for the way this was handled, it outright sucks, no other way to put it, the tts guy could have given the guy (which is already a customer) a new dongle in which he likely has very little money into the hard parts and keep or at least attempt to build a good customer relationship. Instead he points the finger at everyone else and then one of his vendors has to step up to the plate at his own expense, while once again the tts owner profits. Arrogance at it's finest.
Steve George, I would find a new unit to send out with my product if I were you if this is the kind of customer service the current untis provide.

[Twolanerider]

Yea but "The Motor Company" can always void his warranty as it pertains to the ECM and any perceived damage that was done.  The only savior will be Magnuson--Moss Warranty act IF any thing is done.

Regards

Jerry

That's not new news though.  We all understand going in that if we change something it's on us.

[miken488]

Ok, went back to the dealership to address a continuing brake issue and advised them that I had the TTS installed. Their report back was that they could not check the software for the ABS updates due to the Mastertune installation. Are they correct in that the ECM cannot be accessed for ABS updates with the TTS installed? Seems kind of crazy to me?

[Steve Cole]

They cannot reprogram the ECM with a TTS calibration installed. If they have an issue with that all you need to do is use the Save/Restore feature built in the software and put the original calibration back in for them. This is spelled out in the manuals and in the software. Then the bike is back to just how it was prior to the TTS being installed. Once finished just put the TTS calibration back in.

What's funny about this one is the ABS calibration is not in the ECM to start with. So only god knows what they are looking for.

[faceracer]

Ok, went back to the dealership to address a continuing brake issue and advised them that I had the TTS installed. Their report back was that they could not check the software for the ABS updates due to the Mastertune installation. Are they correct in that the ECM cannot be accessed for ABS updates with the TTS installed? Seems kind of crazy to me?

My local dealer just told me the ABS is a separate computer and having the TTS tune would be of no consequence when having my ABS software updated.

[grc]

Ok, went back to the dealership to address a continuing brake issue and advised them that I had the TTS installed. Their report back was that they could not check the software for the ABS updates due to the Mastertune installation. Are they correct in that the ECM cannot be accessed for ABS updates with the TTS installed? Seems kind of crazy to me?

Since the ABS ECU (module) is separate from the ECM, it appears your dealership is likely jerking your chain.  Perhaps they are among those who like to screw with folks who don't drink the Kool-Aid and buy nothing but H-D branded stuff at their dealership?

Anyhow, rather than tell the dealership you have a TTS map installed, it would probably be best to just put the original map back in for any trip to the dealership for service.  If they did have to flash the ECM, they couldn't do so until you put everything back to stock anyway.  And even if they don't have to flash the ECM, why give them information to use against you?  One of the big advantages of the TTS over the SEPST is this ability to restore the ECM to it's original state so "Big Brother" can't play games with you.


Jerry

[Twolanerider]

One of the big advantages of the TTS over the SEPST is this ability to restore the ECM to it's original state so "Big Brother" can't play games with you.


Jerry

That flexibility is a benefit Jerry.  But the potential necessity to satisfy Mother Harley is a handicap.  One of the locals here is a TTS user.  He's had no problems with the device itself.  He hired dyno time to get the bike dialed in and it runs well.

The guy does anything other than oil changes at the local dealer.  So once when he had a rideability problem he took the bike in for service.  Engine wasn't running well at all.  It had run well on his relatively significant engine build for about 15k miles.  So obviously something was failing to work correctly.

Trouble was the local shop wouldn't, couldn't, or didn't know how to diagnose his bike with the TTS onboard.  He could and did swap it back to "stock."  But with the stock settings re-established to pacify his servicer the bike ran like crap.  Different crap than his original complaint.  But crap nonetheless.  Enough so that in this particular version of the puppy chasing its tail nothing was ever really accomplished.

Admittedly we know, or should know, going in that when we make changes to base systems (especially engine management systems) that "it's on us" from there on out.  But the suggestion that is prevalent that TTS has a patina of seamlessness just isn't absolutely the case. 

Where any "fault" might lie for that lack of seamlessness is all too often a matter for pretentious self-justification.  But for the poor schmuck who's just a rider and pays his hard earned cash just to make it go fault location doesn't matter.  Whomever's fault it might be the overall system can cause a pain in the ass at just the time you only want easy service and to get back on the road.

This particular guy ended up paying almost $400 to the local shop to accomplish nothing.  He had a failing crank sensor.  We made a best guess at it based solely on behavior and happened to get lucky with the first shot.  Having to satisfy Harley was an expensive and unrequited pain.

[HOGMIKE]

Seems to me that the customer should have informed the dealer what he has done to the bike so they have all the info. If they had known about the TTS calibration all this would not have happened. I think the dealer went all out to fix the issue and as far as replacing parts under warranty and not asking the customer for permission that is a lot of bull. Dealers and techs don't have time to play "mother may I" games. Get the bike on the lift, get it fixed, and out the door and on to the next job. I bet the next time he takes the bike in for work he still won't have a H-D calibration in the ECM and this is going to happen again. As customers don't you want the tech working on your bike to make sure it haas all the latest updates on the ECM and radio software? I check all this on any bike I do a service on and I am not going to call the customer and ask his permission to upgrade the radio software as an example. For one thing he probably won't be available to talk until he gets off work, then he will want to spend a half hour asking questions about the reflash on the radio and god knows what else.

In summary I think dealer did what he should have done and the customer screwed up by not passing along the info that he was using a tuning device or not putting the H-D calibration back in. H-D now knows he had modded his ECM as the Techlink gathers all the info on a bike and every day uploads to H-D corporate tech services. Big Brother IS watching you.

If a dealer/tech does not have the time to call me with a question about my $40K bike, I think I'll go elsewhere.
Of course, that's just ME, others may be ok with that sort of procedure.

 

[FNGw/08SERK]

My ABS was updated with TTS onboard ... no snafu's

[Steve Cole]

Look guys we do not want any of you to have a problem with our product installed. The simple truth is you can have it with anything installed in the ECM. We never put the ability in the software to return to original programming there to hide your modifications on the bike. The dealer can do all normal service work with the TTS installed, BUT, reprogram the ECM. All the trouble codes still work and read the same and they can still diagnose problems with it in place. They just cannot reprogram it. We were faced with a problem when we gave you the ability to do Cam tuning and EGR tuning. There needed to be away to provide you with the tools to do the testing to make the adjustments and make it all work together. In order to do all this we have to rewrite the code to handle it. Now we could have allowed for everything to be the same but the downside was that if the ECM got reprogrammed by any other tool you would have a dead ECM. This is because most tools do not reprogram the entire ECM only one part of it. So we chose to lock it and stop it from happening, thinking this was the better way to handle it.

Now let's look at it from another angle. You take your bike in for service with a modified engine and a modified calibration from anything other than Mastertune to make it all work right together and your out on the road. The Tech plugs in and notices it's not the new update calibration from HD. Since he can program the new update and get paid by HD for it, in it goes and they do not stop to ask you. So now your out the custom program that was in your bike from your local tuner with no way to put it back in. This is real and it happens today, doesn't matter if it's an EMS from Rev, SESPT, DL, SERT or any other programming device, except Mastertune which would not have allowed it to happen. There is a risk either way, but we believe that the method we chose is the safest all around.

The ability to go back to original is there for you to recover the ECM in case something happens during programming or if you remove your custom parts. If the bike needs the custom program to run right then you need to own up to it and leave it in place. As I said there is a risk no matter what you do and we have tried to keep it as small of a risk as possible.

[Twolanerider]

Look guys we do not want any of you to have a problem with our product installed. The simple truth is you can have it with anything installed in the ECM. We never put the ability in the software to return to original programming there to hide your modifications on the bike. The dealer can do all normal service work with the TTS installed, BUT, reprogram the ECM. All the trouble codes still work and read the same and they can still diagnose problems with it in place. They just cannot reprogram it. We were faced with a problem when we gave you the ability to do Cam tuning and EGR tuning. There needed to be away to provide you with the tools to do the testing to make the adjustments and make it all work together. In order to do all this we have to rewrite the code to handle it. Now we could have allowed for everything to be the same but the downside was that if the ECM got reprogrammed by any other tool you would have a dead ECM. This is because most tools do not reprogram the entire ECM only one part of it. So we chose to lock it and stop it from happening, thinking this was the better way to handle it.

Now let's look at it from another angle. You take your bike in for service with a modified engine and a modified calibration from anything other than Mastertune to make it all work right together and your out on the road. The Tech plugs in and notices it's not the new update calibration from HD. Since he can program the new update and get paid by HD for it, in it goes and they do not stop to ask you. So now your out the custom program that was in your bike from your local tuner with no way to put it back in. This is real and it happens today, doesn't matter if it's an EMS from Rev, SESPT, DL, SERT or any other programming device, except Mastertune which would not have allowed it to happen. There is a risk either way, but we believe that the method we chose is the safest all around.

The ability to go back to original is there for you to recover the ECM in case something happens during programming or if you remove your custom parts. If the bike needs the custom program to run right then you need to own up to it and leave it in place. As I said there is a risk no matter what you do and we have tried to keep it as small of a risk as possible.

Cole, no one is saying it's unnecessary, unwarranted or even illogical.  Merely that the system can present a hazard that is a step more than a nuisance.  Especially for an owner not fully invested in knowing all he might about the product.  That is sometimes compounded, of course, by the reaction of some dealerships whether their reaction is warranted or not.

It's been said, more than once, that we as owners accept the risk when we change things; knowingly or not.  That your product, and others, can open up those risks in different ways is part of the product and part of our ownership.

We, generally, know that.  We understand it and accept it.  That we may bitch about the totality of the experience sometimes is simply human nature.  It is not, however, something you need to repeatedly run to the ramparts to defend yourself against.  You do yourself and your product a disservice when you do.  Just because someone says "the sky is blue" it's not necessary to respond saying "it's not TTS's fault." 

We're big boys and girls.  We make product decisions knowingly.  If someone wants to be helpful along the way when there's a hiccough that's great.  If not, we're still ok.  "Helpful" is not the feeling you've often left the crowd with though.  Sometimes you pull it off.  Other times the perception is of insecurities run amok.

Your remarks immediately above here are generally of the more helpful and explanatory.  And it's appreciated.  I for one find you a lot more palatable (and by extension your product much more savory) when you're talking with us rather than at us.

[hdbrad03]

My ABS was updated with TTS onboard ... no snafu's

That's a good point but where does the ABS control lie? In the ECU or is there a separate CPU for the ABS system? So when our bikes were flashed for an ABS upgrade does it override the current TTS program??


 

    Brad

[Steve Cole]

ABS is its own deal and does not affect the ECM program which is where the engine tune is.

As for how I post I will try to do better in the future.

[HOGMIKE]

ABS is its own deal and does not affect the ECM program which is where the engine tune is.

As for how I post I will try to do better in the future.

 
On the other hand.................
"Illegitimi non carborundum"!!

 

[remington007]

Im allittle confused on the original problem. I thought the dongle box-- tts, race tuner or the super tuner locked on to the serial number entered in the ECM? So with a new ECM with the proper serial number entered shouldnt the dongle recognise it??? Or does it lock in a different way??  Steve??

[Texas 103]

I wonder if this happens when you have a MT7 file in the ECM?

Reads it just fine Terry.. That's why my tuner   won't use the MT8.

[Midnight Rider]

Reads it just fine Terry.. That's why my tuner   won't use the MT8.

Thanks...hope to get to see you sometime this year or next!!

[Texas 103]

TwoWrongs don't make a right....just sayin.

just like Twolanes don't make a road...

[Twolanerider]

just like Twolanes don't make a road...

Not this year they haven't.  Bummer....

[Texas 103]

Not this year they haven't.  Bummer....

Just couldn't resist that.. That a patch idea if I've seen one..

[Steve Cole]

An ECM serial number and a VIN are two different things. Every ECM has it's own serial number but the VIN belongs to the bike. So does it make more sense now?

[remington007]

Perfectly

[hotroadking]

My understanding is that the TTS software locks the ECM so that
inadvertent map deletion is not possible by a technician.

That makes sense to a degree when you take a bike
to a dealer for service, the first thing you should do
is let them know you have a tuning program on the ECM
be it TTS, SESPT, PC, TMax etc.  This will eliminate
any of this from happening and that JMO of course
is the one thing that caused this to snowball out of control.

This is a safety feature for you the buyer of the TTS.

You have to understand that Techs get paid to flash ECMs
They do it all the time with updated HD code, and most
owners never know it happened... Until after it's done and
it's listed on the service order under "warranty coverage"

Why - money, moola, greenbacks, ,,,

This protects you because you paid to have a dyno tune done with
a TTS, or did your own tune and spent a lot of time
getting it correct.  Along comes a shop with a tech following procedure
and he simply hooks his little black box up to the bike, note the older version and because the
dealer policy is to check ECM for correct versions on all
bikes in order to file for warranty reimbursement he reflashes your
ECM with the new stock calibration.

IE extra profit on your oil change and you never know it happened

Now if you have a stage 1 build you could even be riding around for months, weeks, days
until you notice it's not running right, or its hotter, or you might not notice it at all, and
you are doing potential damage, not to mention you are not getting the benefit
of the work and investment.

So TTS locks the Techs out, because they see it all the time
they get calls from users who are upset because the tech
was able to dump a tune, that they got from Joes Tuna and Tuning shack
while they were in Sturgis and they have no backup, no way to reach Joe
and Joes out on a boat crab fishing until he hits Daytona in March.....

See the other side of the problem?

So in deference to the original poster,
and with sympathy for his situation,
the responsibility was that it should have
been noted on the service order
that he had a custom map with a TTS, Dynomat, Sespt, whatever...

Not doing so probably got him in
this situation because the tech was
following the money for the shop.

JMO the shop owes him a new TTS
not Steve George (who stepped in to help which is great)
and Btw being the dealer on TTS is the place
to call first with the problem, not the manufacturing company.

I'm not sure how we get from a dealer
hosing a bike owner to Steve at TTS not
stepping up for a problem he didn't create
didn't cause, simply because TTS software
has a fail safe to protect us from dealer harm...

TTS did the job it was designed to do,
Protect the tune ....

What would you rather have, an open
reprogrammable ECM by any tech with a box
or your investment locked from improper
changes.

(stepping off soap box)

[mjb765]

Yes we all know the OP should have informed the dealer of the ECM tune, and the dealer should ahve informed the cusotmer of what they found and their intentions of replacing the ECM..but nobody blamed TTS. It was suggested that TTS could have gone the extra mile to help a customer in need--regardless of who's fault it was that put hime there. Nobody asked Fullsac to step up--BUT the fact that Steve George did the right thing and helped the guy out goes a long way towards reputation and referrels. He will make back whatever that dongle cost plus more just for helping this guy out. There comes a time when the finger pointing has to end--we all know this could have been avoided, but that is no longer the point.

TTS--pointed the finger and laid blame without offering anything

Fullsac performance--TTS dealer--didn't point finger or blame anybody--just offered and did the right thing which will earn him respect and many more happy customers.

[hotroadking]

MJB I Understand what you are saying, however the shot at TTS occurs
even in your post. Twice actually, and not being argumentative but that's just
plain wrong...

There is a lot to read about but Steve stated the guy was offered the standard
method of fixing it, which involves you ship the stuff back and they
reprogram it so the dongle will work with the new ECM.

Even the original poster later confirmed this was offered
but the dealers move to ship the ECM off screwed him, for the second
time. 

Not trying to continue a war about this, just interjecting some
thoughts, and frankly I don't agree with the notion that TTS
needed to step up and do anything.  I take responsibility
for my actions or inaction and in this case it rub me wrong
that a good company is getting maligned for something
it had nothing to do with..

JMO Fulsac was the company that should have been contacted
right from the beginning by the poster, he bought it there.

Steve G did what he felt was a good move to protect his
interest, improve his standing and fix the problem.  Even though
it wasn't his issue, more power to him and good for him, marketing
wise perhaps a great move.  

Now if TTS did this from day one Could they have scored some points?  Nope, never happen
I guarantee that if they had "fixed it" you'd have never seen this post.  Nothing to gain.

JMO was a get even post from the beginning...  Original poster
has 7 posts, hmmmm And it's been allowed to fester, and spread, to other boards.

From what I understand this owner was offered by TTS to replace the dongle
and reset everything for the original owner AT NO CHARGE, as per their normal rules
other than the owner ships the materials back to TTS for verification
and the work.  How is a no charge fix not a fair offer?

[mjb765]

Understand what you are saying, however there it is  again, in the reply, there's a little shot at TTS. Twice actually.

Fulsac was the company that should have been contacted
right from the beginning by the poster, he bought it there.

Steve G did what he felt was a good move to protect his
interest, improve his standing and fix the problem.  Even though
it wasn't his issue, more power to him and good for him, marketing
wise perhaps a great move. 

Now if TTS did this from day one Could they have scored some points?  Nope, never happen
I guarantee that if they had "fixed it" you'd have never seen this post.  Nothing to gain.

JMO was a get even post from the beginning...  Original poster
has 7 posts, hmmmm And it's been allowed to fester, and spread, to other boards.

From what I understand this owner was offered by TTS to replace the dongle
and reset everything for the original owner AT NO CHARGE, as per their normal rules
other than the owner ships the materials back to TTS for verification
and the work.  How is a no charge fix not a fair offer?

The only NO CHARGE offer I see on this thread is from Steve George of Fullsac Performance. Fullsac is a TTS reseller and NOT the manufacturer. He stepped up and did the right thing. Did I miss something??? Maybe I did???

I NEVER aimed any shots at the TTS product--I have used it and it is a fine product

[hotroadking]

Please don't take my response as an attack, it wasn't intended as such
if it came across that way, apologies, the written word doesn't
allow one the interjection of the spoken word

Perhaps it's just the way I read your comments specifically
"TTS--pointed the finger and laid blame without offering anything"
as a slight in TTS direction.

I too use TTS, second bike with it, have had several conversations
with Steve, and I can tell you this thread has been linked to other
boards, and some people on those boards who continually attack at
TTS have used it to start more problems for TTS.

We should be sure we have all the facts before we
make judgement on the situation, and yes, per other threads on other boards
where this very subject has been exploited, it's clear TTS offered
to fix the problem.  The original poster had to pay postage...

Again JMO this was a  get even thread and we've allowed it to go
on too long and it's harmful to a good man and good company.

Just my suggestion but if I had Mod access it would disappear...

[grc]

The problem as originally posted has been solved, and opinions from virtually all sides have been aired.  This might be a good time to move on and explore brave new worlds in other threads.


Jerry

[hotroadking]

The problem as originally posted has been solved, and opinions from virtually all sides have been aired.  This might be a good time to move on and explore brave new worlds in other threads.
Jerry

I agree Jerry but it needs to be made aware that others are linking this thread to other boards
and using it as a basis to exploit the situation....

Check the stats, 100 posts and 2004 views...

[mjb765]

Please don't take my response as an attack, it wasn't intended as such
if it came across that way, apologies, the written word doesn't
allow one the interjection of the spoken wordPerhaps it's just the way I read your comments specifically
"TTS--pointed the finger and laid blame without offering anything"
as a slight in TTS direction.

I too use TTS, second bike with it, have had several conversations
with Steve, and I can tell you this thread has been linked to other
boards, and some people on those boards who continually attack at
TTS have used it to start more problems for TTS.

We should be sure we have all the facts before we
make judgement on the situation, and yes, per other threads on other boards
where this very subject has been exploited, it's clear TTS offered
to fix the problem.  The original poster had to pay postage...

Again JMO this was a  get even thread and we've allowed it to go
on too long and it's harmful to a good man and good company.

Just my suggestion but if I had Mod access it would disappear...

No worries....it's all good

[hogasm]

Is there any  form of identification on the ECM that some sort of software has been installed

Could  there be sticker included in the TTS package that could be installed on the ECm that states there is TTS software installed  .....or any other form of software...

Cheap insurance that possible internet bashing could be diverted with a .25 sticker......not saying that the owner should not list on the work order that a software has been installed, but sometimes we forget 

[naitram]

more then one person has sent me a PM about this thread so i'm locking it