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Author Topic: HELP! - Water in Tranny!  (Read 6767 times)

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Buffy

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HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« on: June 11, 2006, 11:00:01 PM »

[size=14]While doing my normal oil change (every 5K) I started by draining the primary (no problem), then the engine (no problem)  and finally the transmission.  IT CAME OUT GRAY!

Now, before I go on, I only use Syn 3 and have 25K on my scooter with no problems.  No noise, no gear changing problem, etc. But the check stick had gray foam on it and the drained oil was the same color.

Where in the heck could water be getting into the tranny?
[/size]
« Last Edit: June 11, 2006, 11:00:19 PM by Buffy »
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HDMonsterTorque

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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2006, 06:51:41 AM »

Dipstick or breather hose??
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DCFIREMANN

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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2006, 06:59:45 AM »

Quote
Dipstick or breather hose??

That is not uncommon. Can you spell condensation?????? Sure you can. IMHO I would not run Syn3 in my trannie. You want a heavy gear case lube.Red line shock proof(heavy) or any syn 75/140. It will shift smoother and run cooler. The excessive heat is what causes the condensation.

Be Safe

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Buffy

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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2006, 08:17:31 AM »

[size=14]Thank you, my CVO friends.  

I will look into both suggestions.[/size]
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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2006, 02:43:15 PM »

Quote
[size=14]While doing my normal oil change (every 5K) I started by draining the primary (no problem), then the engine (no problem)  and finally the transmission.  IT CAME OUT GRAY!

Now, before I go on, I only use Syn 3 and have 25K on my scooter with no problems.  No noise, no gear changing problem, etc. But the check stick had gray foam on it and the drained oil was the same color.

Where in the heck could water be getting into the tranny?
[/size]
-----------------------------------------------------------------

 I wish you had a photo of the soup you drained to show to all the loyal advocates of "Syn 3 in all 3 hole's"............ :o

erniezap

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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2006, 03:17:06 PM »

Quote
-----------------------------------------------------------------

 I wish you had a photo of the soup you drained to show to all the loyal advocates of "Syn 3 in all 3 hole's"............ :o

I'm now using Amsoil synthetic motor oil in the engine and primary, and either Redline or Amsoil synthetic gear lube in the tranny.  Syn3 sucks!
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DCFIREMANN

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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2006, 03:35:29 PM »

Quote

I'm now using Amsoil synthetic motor oil in the engine and primary, and either Redline or Amsoil synthetic gear lube in the tranny.  Syn3 sucks!

THANK YOU!!!!!!!

Be Safe

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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2006, 03:37:17 PM »

Quote
-----------------------------------------------------------------

 I wish you had a photo of the soup you drained to show to all the loyal advocates of "Syn 3 in all 3 hole's"............ :o

I just wish they would listen to someone else besides the STEALER!!!!
My buddy who is a MASTER TECH with Harley won't use it either. He is Redline and Amsoil converted!!!!

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Midnight Rider

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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2006, 03:44:37 PM »

Explanation: Water vapour will only condense onto another surface when that surface is cooler than the temperature of the water vapor, or when the water vapor equilibrium in air, i. e. saturation humidity, has been exceeded.

Understand that I am not trying to disagree with anyone or say use/don't use a particular product, only that condensation in your engine/transmisstion is normal, and is dependent upon how much water vapor is in the atmosphere at any particular point in time, and how much of that makes it way into your crankcase, to condense later as a liquid (water), after the engine/tranny has cooled.  Heated back up, the water will vaporize again, and exit your engine/tranny.  So, if it has been extremely rainy/humid, etc in your area of the country lately, you would notice more water content in your fluids, depending on when you drain them.  Was this fluid drained cold?  If so, the water vapor never had time to escape, thus the color.  I would bet that any oil, no matter the weight or thinness/thickness would contain the same amount of water, under the same circumstances, regardless of whether or not you can see it.

That's just my opinion, based on 20 years in the HVAC (large commercial applications) business, which is totally based on evaporation and condensing of various liquids, and heat transfer from one place to another.

I think you just drained the tranny at a time when it contained more water than normal, unless you've got a hole in it somewhere and its raining  ;)

I think it's been kinda damp up in that part of the country this spring, hasn't it?  If you've got 25K on your scoot, and have never noticed this before, I would attribute it to outside conditions and not any fault with the oil. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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DCFIREMANN

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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2006, 04:20:40 PM »

Quote
Explanation: Water vapour will only condense onto another surface when that surface is cooler than the temperature of the water vapor, or when the water vapor equilibrium in air, i. e. saturation humidity, has been exceeded.

Understand that I am not trying to disagree with anyone or say use/don't use a particular product, only that condensation in your engine/transmisstion is normal, and is dependent upon how much water vapor is in the atmosphere at any particular point in time, and how much of that makes it way into your crankcase, to condense later as a liquid (water), after the engine/tranny has cooled.  Heated back up, the water will vaporize again, and exit your engine/tranny.  So, if it has been extremely rainy/humid, etc in your area of the country lately, you would notice more water content in your fluids, depending on when you drain them.  Was this fluid drained cold?  If so, the water vapor never had time to escape, thus the color.  I would bet that any oil, no matter the weight or thinness/thickness would contain the same amount of water, under the same circumstances, regardless of whether or not you can see it.

That's just my opinion, based on 20 years in the HVAC (large commercial applications) business, which is totally based on evaporation and condensing of various liquids, and heat transfer from one place to another.

I think you just drained the tranny at a time when it contained more water than normal, unless you've got a hole in it somewhere and its raining  ;)

I think it's been kinda damp up in that part of the country this spring, hasn't it?  If you've got 25K on your scoot, and have never noticed this before, I would attribute it to outside conditions and not any fault with the oil. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

TN good post but I have to disagree somewhat. If you run an oil that breaks down quicker and the metal heats up faster when your cooling occurs it will condense more. As we both know the amount of moisture in the air will also tell you how much condensation will collect in this case the tranmission case.

I have used and do not care for Syn3. I don't think it protects as well as most of your other V twin syn oils. Just my 2 cents.


OH and BTW besides being a District of Columbia Firefighter I own a small HVAC company. I started in the trade about 35 years ago almost to the date.

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Buffy

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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2006, 04:52:56 PM »

[size=14]OK, I really didn't want this to turn into a "He said this, but he said that" but I will listen to all comments. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

One thing that I'd like to mention, I don't work for Harley or are involved with them in any way, (except I like their scooters!) but I have used Syn3 since it came out (Wideglide had about 5K on it then) and although I change my oils every 5K miles, this was the first time that this has happened.

I hear all of the Redline and Amsoil testimonies and they all make sense, except I have two cases of Sys3 sitting in my basement!!!!!
[[/size]
 [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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Midnight Rider

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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2006, 04:53:10 PM »

DC...I think we agree that the HD Syn3 is not a high quality synthetic oil, as has been discussed on other threads, and it would be a good idea to use something else of higher quality.  And we're on the same page with the condensing of water vapor and the principles involved...you know as well as I do that the refrigeration/Air Conditioning process, and the oils/refrigerants used, are magnets for moisture and the havoc it can play in the system.  We could talk about the physics of all this 'till the cows come home.  :o

So I'm thinkin' that we would both recommend a change to another product, we just might agree to disagree on exactly which one, but either of our choices would probably do a better job.  That's why they make Chocolate and Vanilla   ;) [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

My dealer is probably not going to like it when I take a case of Mobil VTWIN to them at the 1K service and insist they use it to change my fluids.  [smiley=nervous.gif]  If it weren't for the other checks they have to do at 1K, I'd be doin' it myself.  

So Buffy, I think there is a consensus of opinion about the syn3...it sucks  ;)  At least compared to Amsoil, Mobil,and a couple of other good ones out there.  So any of those recommended would be better in the long run...personally, I'll run the Mobil in all three holes, and would be equally happy with Amsoil.
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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2006, 05:14:21 PM »

Quote
[size=12]

I hear all of the Redline and Amsoil testimonies and they all make sense, except I have two cases of Sys3 sitting in my basement!!!!! [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Ask around to find someone who likes the product and sell it to them at a reduced cost ... that way they get their oil cheaper, you'll recoup some of the money you spent on it and you can buy the oil of your choice.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 05:15:39 PM by SEULTRA »
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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2006, 05:28:11 PM »

Quote
DC...I think we agree that the HD Syn3 is not a high quality synthetic oil, as has been discussed on other threads, and it would be a good idea to use something else of higher quality.  And we're on the same page with the condensing of water vapor and the principles involved...you know as well as I do that the refrigeration/Air Conditioning process, and the oils/refrigerants used, are magnets for moisture and the havoc it can play in the system.  We could talk about the physics of all this 'till the cows come home.  :o

So I'm thinkin' that we would both recommend a change to another product, we just might agree to disagree on exactly which one, but either of our choices would probably do a better job.  That's why they make Chocolate and Vanilla   ;) [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

My dealer is probably not going to like it when I take a case of Mobil VTWIN to them at the 1K service and insist they use it to change my fluids.  [smiley=nervous.gif]  If it weren't for the other checks they have to do at 1K, I'd be doin' it myself.  

So Buffy, I think there is a consensus of opinion about the syn3...it sucks  ;)  At least compared to Amsoil, Mobil,and a couple of other good ones out there.  So any of those recommended would be better in the long run...personally, I'll run the Mobil in all three holes, and would be equally happy with Amsoil.

Terry I would have to agree anything but syn 3!!!!

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Nasty Habit

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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2006, 10:12:05 AM »

I have tried to get my mechanic at EMF here in Morgan Hill to join, but seems he's hesitant. Has a problem with all the opinions here. Isn't that what all this is about? Am I missing something here? I thought the greatness on this website was that we CAN agree to dis-agree. Oh well. I gave him another card, and told him to just join, and don't give his opinion. I think he'd be an asset to this site, and additionally he owns a '05 CVO. Any ideas as to how to intice this man to join? He's a walth of knowledge. Mark, if you are reading this...J-O-I-N N-O-W !
You will join... you are getting sleepy... wake up! and JOIN!
NH [smiley=drink.gif]
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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2006, 10:22:12 AM »

Quote
I have tried to get my mechanic at EMF here in Morgan Hill to join, but seems he's hesitant. Has a problem with all the opinions here. Isn't that what all this is about? Am I missing something here? I thought the greatness on this website was that we CAN agree to dis-agree. Oh well. I gave him another card, and told him to just join, and don't give his opinion. I think he'd be an asset to this site, and additionally he owns a '05 CVO. [highlight]Any ideas as to how to intice this man to join?[/highlight] He's a walth of knowledge. Mark, if you are reading this...J-O-I-N N-O-W !
You will join... you are getting sleepy... wake up! and JOIN!NH [smiley=drink.gif]

I agree that any additional knowledge or new member is an asset to the site, but look at how many have signed up and don't post or ever log in again.....or even lurk.

If he isn't into it, no point in begging.  If a guy doesn't see any value in being here you most likely won't intice him IMHO.


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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2006, 07:10:08 PM »

Quote
Personally, I'll run the Mobil in all three holes, and would be equally happy with Amsoil.


[size=16]Hey TC,

Mobil 1 or Amsoil question?  

What type and weights is each hole?[/size]
[/b]
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 07:10:59 PM by Buffy »
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Midnight Rider

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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2006, 12:37:36 AM »

The petroleum engineer that has helped me so much with this topic recommends Mobil 1 VTWIN in all three holes.  It's available at some Autozones, Advanced Auto, and other bike stores.  Wal Mart might even have it.  He says, backed up b actual analysis on trannys, engines, and primary samples, that it is highly recommended for all three.  He says most of the big rigs you see on the hiways are running Mobil 1, or some other good synthetic like Amsoil, in their transmissions.  On straight cut gears, like in a HD, he says there is no advantage to running a gear lube....all it does is rob the engine of horsepower from churning that thick oil, and the protection is no better, and in most cases not as good.  I changed to Mobil 1 10 W 40 MT4X (motorcycle oil) in my Ducati and noticed a DRAMATIC improvement in oil temp, shifting ease, and overall performance of the engine...It makes more power, just as he claimed it would.

The Mobil VTWIN oil was developed by one of their Sr. Chemical Engineers (old dude) who had 17 bikes, most of them HD or other vtwins...he had a blank check during development and came up with the best possible syn for the V's.  The trannyu is bound to stir up some chit here, but I'm just telling you what I have experienced in a high HP, high torque twin, though it's not a v-twin, but an L (Ducati).  Mobil 1 VTWIN is going in my SEUC at the 1K service without hesitation.  The thick tranny lubes will protect, but from their research, you get the same protection for the V sys oil, without having to churn butter in the case.  You ever tried to stir 70W140?  It's like molasses...bound to rob HP, but provides no better film protection, or wear characteristics, as has been proven by their analysis.

That's my opinion
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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2006, 10:00:56 AM »

Oh yea, Buffy...the Mobil VTWIN is 20w50.  He also said the Amsoil is an excellent product, as is Motul.  The prior owner of my duck was running Shell "syn"....like I said, a dramatic improvement when I changed, within 50 miles of riding, and it keeps getting better, particularly the shifting ease...same straight cut gears in the Duc tranny, it's just all in one sump.

I'll also be using the K&N oil filters from this point forward.
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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2006, 08:04:44 PM »

[size=16]OK gang, one more thing please............ [smiley=oops.gif]

I have drained the tranny twice, filled it up with new oil, ran it up and down the road and it still comes out gray.  Not as bad as before, but definitely not black!

Does anyone have any ideas as to how to remove the rest of water that is left in the tranny?[smiley=nixweiss.gif]

I am open to any suggestions!  ::)
[/size]
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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2006, 08:56:11 PM »

You'll need to get it quite hot for an extended period of time.  I'm sure if you make it to one of the rally's several of us would "help" you get that tranny quite warm and keep it that way for at least a couple of hours to burn off the water!!! ;D :o :P
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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2006, 10:08:58 PM »

Quote
You'll need to get it quite hot for an extended period of time.  I'm sure if you make it to one of the rally's several of us would "help" you get that tranny quite warm and keep it that way for at least a couple of hours to burn off the water!!! ;D :o :P

[size=20]HA!  I bet you would!   [smiley=banana.gif]

I'll try running it for a while keeping track of the "foam" factor.  Thanks for the hint! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif][/size]

[/b]
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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2006, 10:12:01 PM »

Quote
The petroleum engineer that has helped me so much with this topic recommends Mobil 1 VTWIN in all three holes.  It's available at some Autozones, Advanced Auto, and other bike stores.  Wal Mart might even have it.  He says, backed up b actual analysis on trannys, engines, and primary samples, that it is highly recommended for all three.  He says most of the big rigs you see on the hiways are running Mobil 1, or some other good synthetic like Amsoil, in their transmissions.  On straight cut gears, like in a HD, he says there is no advantage to running a gear lube....all it does is rob the engine of horsepower from churning that thick oil, and the protection is no better, and in most cases not as good.  I changed to Mobil 1 10 W 40 MT4X (motorcycle oil) in my Ducati and noticed a DRAMATIC improvement in oil temp, shifting ease, and overall performance of the engine...It makes more power, just as he claimed it would.

The Mobil VTWIN oil was developed by one of their Sr. Chemical Engineers (old dude) who had 17 bikes, most of them HD or other vtwins...he had a blank check during development and came up with the best possible syn for the V's.  The trannyu is bound to stir up some chit here, but I'm just telling you what I have experienced in a high HP, high torque twin, though it's not a v-twin, but an L (Ducati).  Mobil 1 VTWIN is going in my SEUC at the 1K service without hesitation.  The thick tranny lubes will protect, but from their research, you get the same protection for the V sys oil, without having to churn butter in the case.  You ever tried to stir 70W140?  It's like molasses...bound to rob HP, but provides no better film protection, or wear characteristics, as has been proven by their analysis.

That's my opinion

[size=20]TC, great info and explanation!

Thank you so much.  Sounds like Mobil 1 V-Twin is in my future![/size]
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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2006, 10:31:26 PM »

Buffy...you're welcome bro....there are differing opinions on this subject, particularly regarding the transmission oil.  I'm just going with what a guy I really trust is saying is best for my bikes, and he's got a bad case of OCD. This dude gets off on people sending him oil samples from their bikes so he can see what's in it!!  Just heard from him today, and he says they're about to release an oil filter for bikes (not sure which ones yet, but a lot of them have the same size oil filters) that's gonna blow everything else away!!  We'll see...I asked him a lot of questions about bypass settings and size of particles captured...as soon as I know something, I'll post it.

Articdude is right, I think...the only way to get that water completely out is to take several 500 mile runs, so get in the saddle!!   ;D  Seriously, it probably took a while for that moisture to collect, particularly making a lot of relatively short runs, with a lot of heating up and cooling off of the tranny.  You'll just have to find a way to make it to MV this October so we can help you get it out of there!!!  We all thought you were going to be the bike wash dude anyway!!  ;D ;D
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Buffy

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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2006, 08:08:26 AM »

Quote
Buffy...you're welcome bro....there are differing opinions on this subject, particularly regarding the transmission oil.  I'm just going with what a guy I really trust is saying is best for my bikes, and he's got a bad case of OCD. This dude gets off on people sending him oil samples from their bikes so he can see what's in it!!  Just heard from him today, and he says they're about to release an oil filter for bikes (not sure which ones yet, but a lot of them have the same size oil filters) that's gonna blow everything else away!!  We'll see...I asked him a lot of questions about bypass settings and size of particles captured...as soon as I know something, I'll post it.

Articdude is right, I think...the only way to get that water completely out is to take several 500 mile runs, so get in the saddle!!   ;D  Seriously, it probably took a while for that moisture to collect, particularly making a lot of relatively short runs, with a lot of heating up and cooling off of the tranny.  You'll just have to find a way to make it to MV this October so we can help you get it out of there!!!  We all thought you were going to be the bike wash dude anyway!!  ;D ;D

[size=20]Thanks again TC!  I found out the problem.  Somehow, the tranny vent hose got knocked loose, so everytime that I washed it (which is a LOT!) water would find its way in.  I'll continue to ride it and drain it for a few weeks until it's back to normal.

Sorry that I won't make Maggie Valley, but work schedules have interferred.  But I'll be thinking of you all!

Ride safe![/size]
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Re: HELP! - Water in Tranny!
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2006, 11:36:12 AM »

Glad you found the problem Buffy!!!   [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]  Yea, that OCD cleaning we all seem to be afflicted with would put a lot of water in there.  A couple of changes should do the trick...maybe take a nice run to get everything good and hot/churned up, then come home and immediately drain.  Use your leftover syn 3... ;)

Too bad about the Valley...we'll miss ya!! Sounds like we all need to be thinking about The Calgary Stampede for next year!! [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Sometimes it takes a whole tankful of fuel before you can think straight.
I had the right to remain silent, just not the ability...

Gone, but not forgotten...2011 FLTRUSE with
Fullsac X Pipe w/2" Baffles
Legend Air Ride Rear Shocks
Traxxion Dynamics AK-20 Front Suspension
Clearview GT13 Windshield
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