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[SE113]

+
Why are the 255 quicker in the 8th mile drag, than the woods 555. Install 555 and my time got slower by about a second but the dyno shows better tq curve and 8 hp more than 255's.  The se255 pull hard up to around 80mph and the dyno shows that the woods 555 should be out pulling the 255's by looking at the tq curve. Now dont get me wronge the 555 pull great when getting up in the rpm.  My bike is a SE Street glide

[Zinister]

Do you have both dynos and are they in similar conditions ie temp and humidity?

Also were the conditions the same during both races? If these were the same....almost impossible. I would suspect it's an area under the curve situation meaning the SE255 is making more power/TQ for more of the RPM you were using.

[Ticitme]

My guess is that the torque curved moved to the right some. Means you have to launch at a higher RPM to get into the "meat" of the powerband. I had the same issue with my 107 build. A stage 1 96 would pull me from a 2000  RPM roll on till I got the revs up...

[North Georgia Hawg]

My guess is that the torque curved moved to the right some. Means you have to launch at a higher RPM to get into the "meat" of the powerband. I had the same issue with my 107 build. A stage 1 96 would pull me from a 2000  RPM roll on till I got the revs up...

Woods cams are known more for being higher-RPM "HP" cams than lower-RPM "torque" cams... even the Evo ones are like that. Once they come in, they scream... but they don't come in at 1800 RPM.

I've noticed much the same from the Andrews 54H cams in this bike... they really don't "come in" until the mid 2's... but then they will KICK AZZ right up to redline! 

[SE113]

the Tq is over a 100 with both cam around 2600 rpm's both cams top tq # is 110 tq.  The 255 start falling off around 4600, the 555 are still going up around 5100 before really dropping off.  At lower RPM the 255's just have a better feeling (pull like crazy) . 6th gear feels better never have to gear down.  i just think between 1800-3600 rpms the 255 cant be beat.   Dont care what dyno shows my ass can tell the differance.

[North Georgia Hawg]

the Tq is over a 100 with both cam around 2600 rpm's both cams top tq # is 110 tq.  The 255 start falling off around 4600, the 555 are still going up around 5100 before really dropping off.  At lower RPM the 255's just have a better feeling (pull like crazy) . 6th gear feels better never have to gear down.  i just think between 1800-3600 rpms the 255 cant be beat.   Dont care what dyno shows my ass can tell the differance.

Well, your "Butt-o-meter" is always the best judge for your riding style. If you like low RPMs, the Woods won't be for you, and neither will the 54H... although I've been told the 26H comes in much lower, around 1800 RPM. If you like to run the engine in the lower RPM range, the 255s will do that. They are "torque cams", and torque is what gets you moving. Just remember though, the best total power from the engine is at or just before where the torque and HP curves cross over... or really where the torque starts falling off significantly... but if you don't like your RPMs that high, then you'll never operate in that band anyway. It is usually over 5000 RPM.

I like the 54H because it REALLY opens up starting in the mid 2000s, and the duration keeps it pulling right up to redline. The 110" engine in my bike with the 54H cams seems to like to run high up in the band... I hit redline on this beast almost effortlessly... at RPMs that would make my old Evo scream in agony! I have the V-Thunder EVL-3010 cam in the Evo, and it doesn't really come in until around 3000 RPM, but then it screams to redline, too. I haven't had an engine that likes to rev as freely as this 110" one in 25 years... going back to the Kawasaki 900cc inline fours I ran back in the day at 10,000+ RPM. My "Butt-o-meter" is quite happy with this bike and the 54H cams! Just need more V-Tune data...

[strokerjlk]

So many variables. You have the time sheets?
reaction time?
60ft time.
hit the rev limiter on a shift or two.
you could lose. 2 .3 on the light
then launch to hard and lose. 3-.5. on the 60ft.
they all add up. Track conditions, air etc etc.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Is the ccp the same now, with the 555's, vs the 255's?
The Wood 555's want at least 10.35 cr to show what they have.
That can be accomplished via surfacing the heads.
Scott

[phattey]

the Tq is over a 100 with both cam around 2600 rpm's both cams top tq # is 110 tq.  The 255 start falling off around 4600, the 555 are still going up around 5100 before really dropping off.  At lower RPM the 255's just have a better feeling (pull like crazy) . 6th gear feels better never have to gear down.  i just think between 1800-3600 rpms the 255 cant be beat.   Dont care what dyno shows my ass can tell the differance.

Agreed...!!

In my previous '09 FLHX 103 STGII I went from 255's to 555's, with other Fuel Moto and Woods goodies. Almsot wanted to take them out because of the TQ curve shifting too far right for me. However, it lowered my CCP and heat and I eventually got used to riding in the sweet spot for that cam. In summary - lower heat, lower CCP is a good thing...moving TQ to the right I had to adjust my riding style. Would I do them again..? Probably not cause I love the instant low RPM tq of my '11 110.

 

[guppytrash]

I like were the power is/was on the 255 cam that why I went with the Woods TW7H.
Test ride today after it dries up.  HP and TQ lines are almost a mirror image of the 255 just more everywhere.

http://fuelmotousa.com/WoodTW7110SE.JPG

This is not my dyno numbers I just pulled them from Fuelmoto's website.

[ralford]

Just remember though, the best total power from the engine is at or just before where the torque and HP curves cross over... or really where the torque starts falling off significantly... but if you don't like your RPMs that high, then you'll never operate in that band anyway. It is usually over 5000 RPM.

Not sure how you define "total power" but the torque and power always cross at exactly 5252 rpm. 

[North Star]

I like were the power is/was on the 255 cam that why I went with the Woods TW7H.
Test ride today after it dries up.  HP and TQ lines are almost a mirror image of the 255 just more everywhere.

http://fuelmotousa.com/WoodTW7110SE.JPG

This is not my dyno numbers I just pulled them from Fuelmoto's website.

I've seen that dyno run on the FM website- does yours look like that as well?

[guppytrash]

I've seen that dyno run on the FM website- does yours look like that as well?

I just got done riding it for the first time since I did the install and I have a Thundermax/autotune I have no dyno numbers.
First impression is it feels stronger everywhere.  If you like the 255 power band you will like the TW7H.  I suspect I don't quite have those numbers but it runs great and the power is exactly were I ride it.  Just did an update on the learned fuel adjustments for the Tmax and will continue do those after every 100 miles or so until I get it dialed in.
Have not played at all with timing yet and will wait until I have a few fuel adjustments tuned in.

Many Thanks to sadunbar for his guidance in the process.  

I used S&S lifters with stop limiters.  Fuelmoto push rods

I was concerned about the Woods cams being noisey, because I have read that several times.  
For the record I can't speak for anything other than the TW7H but this is as quiet as stock.  
Going for another ride

[Beak Boater]

Good info, I am on the fence about a cam change this winter on my 110. Have Rinehart True Duals, and PCV. Really like the bike and just wanted a little more. Not a real aggresive rider. When I called Jamie at Fuel Moto he reccomended the Tw7h, over the 555 also. Thanks for the update, guess yours will even get better after you get all your autotune data.

[North Georgia Hawg]

Not sure how you define "total power" but the torque and power always cross at exactly 5252 rpm. 

Man - did I screw up THAT post! I had edited it a couple of times before posting it, and meant to take out the "usually", which was related to something I had deleted. 

The point I was trying to make (badly, apparently!) was that if your torque output is falling faster than your HP is rising, then you are past the peak output RPM of the engine. At this point, you might as well upshift, because you are not going to be accelerating as fast once you are past that RPM point. Does this make sense?

[HD Street Performance]

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=66895.0
See post 7 & 8
This is stock cam motor, low compression.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Need to compare apples to apples.
Get both running 205 ccp, like the 255's do, and the 555's will mark at/near the same on the strike, and take off, leaving the school bus cam in the dust, and run cooler doing so.
Scott

[ralford]

The point I was trying to make (badly, apparently!) was that if your torque output is falling faster than your HP is rising, then you are past the peak output RPM of the engine. At this point, you might as well upshift, because you are not going to be accelerating as fast once you are past that RPM point. Does this make sense?

Certainly makes more sense    However, I think it also depends on your gearing.  The optimum shift point is where the hp in the next gear matches that of the current gear. Goal is to exploit the maximum total hp (not sure why it isn't torque now that I think about it) used.

Cheers

[HD Street Performance]

Need to compare apples to apples.
Get both running 205 ccp, like the 255's do, and the 555's will mark at/near the same on the strike, and take off, leaving the school bus cam in the dust, and run cooler doing so.
Scott

So are the TW555s that much different than the TW7?

[North Georgia Hawg]

Certainly makes more sense    However, I think it also depends on your gearing.  The optimum shift point is where the hp in the next gear matches that of the current gear. Goal is to exploit the maximum total hp (not sure why it isn't torque now that I think about it) used.

Cheers

Well, I've always been of the mindset that it's torque, not HP, that produces acceleration. For the maximum acceleration rate, I try to find the point at which the torque is at its peak and the point at which the torque starts falling faster than the HP is rising, and shift to keep the engine in that RPM range. I've been taught that's the way to get down the road the quickest. The flatter the torque curve is, the wider this RPM range is. If you have a peaky torque curve, then this ideal RPM range will be narrower. It's different on every bike of course... and the Butt-O-Meter is a very good judge of this. You can feel when the power starts dropping off as the RPM rises into the stratosphere, and learn to upshift before it does. I ride it the way it FEELS the fastest. After all, that's why I bought this beast in the first place!

I haven't had the bike dynoed (yet), but the torque curve on this bike the way it's set up seems to be so flat, the engine pulls very strongly from about 2300-2400 RPM all the way to redline (and REALLY takes off at about 3000 RPM) - and seems quite happy at any RPM in that whole range! Very responsive engine that gets to 5000+ RPM very quickly... so quickly that it's a bit startling, actually. Sure a lot different than the old Evo! The duration on these 54H cams moves the torque range up some from the stock cams - but it seems to be very flat. If you don't mind turning some revs, these cams are a real kick in the pants!

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

So are the TW555s that much different than the TW7?

What are you leading up to??

[HD Street Performance]

In the words of the tuner builder owner of an 07 CVO that went from the SE255 to the TW7 a very similar cam to the TW555

"Stage 2 with TW7H the bike produced 108hp and 119 ftlbs.
Stage 1 and stage 2 curves crossed at 4000rpm. What we gained above 4000, was lost below 4000 rpm
The torque curve was just moved to the right 500rpm (and therefor gained a little horsepower)."

That statement right there sums it up and answers the originals posters question

No slam on the Woods cams they work well for me with my heads but with this combination the SE255 worked a little better assuming we are trying to measure aggregate torque which is what most riders really want

After headwork that same bike made 112/124 SAE and held over 110TQ from 2100-5250rpm, that's with a CAT EU stock headpipe and Fatshot slip-ons and 9.8/1 SE255 cams

[shindo]

If you do a lot of two up riding the woods 555 would be a better fit, JMO. I like the cam it gives me a nice low end pull and even better in the higher rpm range. Of course this is coming from a x TC88 rider.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

The owner of www.grandlight.com had us upgrade his 110"er last winter.
A 555 was used with a 58mm fbw, our heads, 1.725 rockers.
He alerted us to the fact that even as "picky" as he is, it faaaar surpassed his expectations.
Scott

[cahdbiker]

SE113, I have an 09SEUC and I love the way the 255s pull. I have a Fulsac stage one kit with 1.75 baffles and HD freeflow air cleaner with K&N filter. I get good mileage even with passenger and a lot of luggage ( you know women ). Passing on a two lane road is effortless and I have learned from my 95 Heritage to leave well enough alone. Just got back from a 3500 mile trip with no issues, except for the valve train noise at certain RPMs. CAHDBIKER

[HD Street Performance]

The 255 is standard equipment, no need for an aftermarket cam, ratio rockers, and all the jazz. Saving money is good and makes real happy customers. IME the other cams that have worked similarly are the Wood TW5 and CR575 in the 110.
When somebody wants to make 120+hp we change gears and use a Wood TW400 or TW8 with a similar or better torque curve. Much more money. I do not like to dabble, either economy builds lowest cost for the most result or move on to the high hp stuff.

[hotroadking]

...............either economy builds lowest cost for the most result or move on to the high hp stuff.

Hey wait a minute there,  nobody ever told me there was an economic power build,
I always thought it was gonna cost big bucks no matter what ! LOL   

[North Star]

The 255 is standard equipment, no need for an aftermarket cam, ratio rockers, and all the jazz. Saving money is good and makes real happy customers. IME the other cams that have worked similarly are the Wood TW5 and CR575 in the 110.
When somebody wants to make 120+hp we change gears and use a Wood TW400 or TW8 with a similar or better torque curve. Much more money. I do not like to dabble, either economy builds lowest cost for the most result or move on to the high hp stuff.

I guess that's why a well reviewed local engine/tuner guy takes stock 110's, and works wonders with them without even putting in any new parts. He re-grinds the 255 cams, does head work and throttle body porting, guts the cat, and puts in different baffles- consistently gets 107+ hp and 130 torque. He says he justs opens up the breathing and flow, which realizes the stock engines true potential, which equals a cool running, rideable and reliable bike. I'm thinking about doing this over the winter- won't cost me as much since I've already got the Fullsac x pipe and Rineharts.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Power doesn't cost a ton in some cases, and an example is this.
Client came in with his HTCC 95" Softail and a dyno chart from a dealership in Syracuse N.Y. 94/94.
We re-worked his heads, modified the pistons for better squish, installed a Thunderjet in his S&S G carb, and tuned it.
Left his S/E 257 cam alone.
Once completed, the bike ran 115 hp, and 110 ft/lbs.
He was flipped.
Only parts used were gaskets, valve seals, and a Thunderjet kit.
The rest was that was sold was knowledge.
Scott

[wfolarry]

Power doesn't cost a ton in some cases, and an example is this.
Client came in with his HTCC 95" Softail and a dyno chart from a dealership in Syracuse N.Y. 94/94.
We re-worked his heads, modified the pistons for better squish, installed a Thunderjet in his S&S G carb, and tuned it.
Left his S/E 257 cam alone.
Once completed, the bike ran 115 hp, and 110 ft/lbs.
He was flipped.
Only parts used were gaskets, valve seals, and a Thunderjet kit.
The rest was that was sold was knowledge.
Scott

A valuable commodity.