Topic: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales (Read 15999 times)

kraut · « **on:** November 12, 2011, 04:48:27 AM »

the dealer in St.Paul, Minnesota, Tom Giannetti goes to court against the new international sales policy of Harley-Davidson:

"Harley-Davidson puts brakes on dealer sales-lawsuit

Harley-Davidson sued over restrictions on dealer sales

St. Paul dealer claims new policies threaten business

By Kyle Peterson

Nov 11 (Reuters) - A Harley-Davidson Inc dealer in St. Paul, Minnesota, has sued the motorcycle maker in federal court, claiming the company's restrictions on international sales by U.S. dealers and sales through third-party websites are unfair and weaken the dealer's profits.

In a lawsuit filed Nov. 1, St. Paul Harley-Davidson complained about new restrictions on its methods for selling motorcycle parts, accessories and clothing.

"These changes would deprive (St. Paul Harley-Davidson) of literally millions of dollars of annual revenues, thereby jeopardizing its ability to remain in business," the dealer said.

The dealer said it earned $8 million a year in revenue from those sales from 2008 through 2010.

Motorcycle sales declined in 2008 as the economic recession eroded discretionary spending. But sales have begun to improve.

Harley-Davidson last month said its third-quarter net income more than doubled from a year earlier.

A Harley-Davidson spokeswoman declined to comment on the specifics of the lawsuit. "We disagree with the dealer's premise," she said.

Harley-Davidson, which is especially protective of its brand, restricts sales of new inventory through third-party websites.

According to the lawsuit, the motorcycle maker said that starting Aug. 1, U.S. dealers may not sell Harley-Davidson parts and accessories to any customer outside the United States. The lawsuit said that starting Jan. 1, 2012, U.S. dealers may not sell new parts or accessories on third-party websites.

The policy revisions illegally alter the company's franchise agreement with dealers, the lawsuit claims.

Tom Giannetti, dealership president, said in an Oct. 7 post on the St. Paul Harley-Davidson website, that Harley-Davidson had changed its policies to block sales of products through websites such eBay and Amazon.com.

"These new policies are highly controversial and may be arguable," Giannetti said in the statement. "We certainly do not feel it is fair when we've spent years building a customer service-oriented business to promote the brand worldwide."

Shares of Harley-Davidson were up 4.4 percent at $39.30 on the New York Stock Exchange.

The lawsuit is St. Paul Motorsports, Inc., d/b/a St. Paul Harley-Davidson, vs. Harley-Davidson Motor Company, Inc., d/b/a Harley-Davidson Motor Company; No 0:11-cv-03229-PJS-TNL in the United States District Court For The District Of Minnesota Third Division."

(source: Reuters)

on the dealers website you may read:

"As some of you may have heard, the Harley-Davidson Motor Company has changed their policies regarding U.S.dealers and their ability to provide products to the international community. To best address this, I have included a statement from Tom Giannetti, President and CEO of St. Paul Harley-Davidson.

“I am sorry to confirm that Harley-Davidson Motor Company (HDMC) announced a new policy to the dealer network that as of 8/1/11, it will consider sales by domestic H-D® dealers of any genuine product to ANY individuals or dealers outside the U.S. to be non-retail sales and a violation of their dealer contract. HDMC also announced a policy prohibiting dealers from listing or selling current genuine product on third party websites (e.g., e-bay, Amazon, etc.) effective 1/1/12. HDMC will also consider a dealer’s own website a third party site, if not approved by HDMC. Our own shopping site, <a target="_blank" href="http://www.stpaulharley.com,">www.stpaulharley.com,[/url] has been approved by HDMC.

These new policies are highly controversial and may be arguable. We certainly do not feel it is fair when we’ve spent years building a customer service oriented business to promote the brand worldwide.

For the time being, St. Paul Harley-Davidson® will continue selling and shipping our products overseas; however, this policy could change at any time without further notice. Because this situation is so tentative, we urge all of our overseas customers to place orders without delay. We look forward to serving you.”

As you can see, we are continuing to offer international purchasing and shipping on genuine Harley-Davidson® apparel, parts and accessories for now; however, we do not know for how long. We will continue to update you as new information becomes available."

interesting case ...

bisounours · « **Reply #1 on:** November 12, 2011, 05:04:37 AM »

robertg · « **Reply #2 on:** November 12, 2011, 07:22:55 AM »

I'll be in that area in a few weeks, I think I'll go spend some money there.

Buy early · « **Reply #3 on:** November 12, 2011, 10:08:41 AM »

St. Paul HD is my dealer & I've met Tom a few times. Nice guy, VERY fucused on customer service. I have always highly recommended them. Feel even stronger now! I consider the HD policy restraint of trade & it will be interesting to see this play out.

ice6900 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 12, 2011, 10:39:49 AM »

Took the US dealers long enough to figure they would loose revenue,

FLSTFI Dave · « **Reply #5 on:** November 12, 2011, 04:03:10 PM »

I sure hope they win.

hdtrader · « **Reply #6 on:** November 14, 2011, 09:10:29 AM »

I've purchased through them and wish them the best...

aero8 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 14, 2011, 12:44:08 PM »

I wish St.Paul HD all the Best and I hope that they will win this fight against MOCO.

Again I had a little experience with the part prices here in Switzerland.

Price in USA is 109 Dollars, here in Switzerland they asked for the very same item nearly 470 Dollars (430 sfr) ARE THEY CRAZY???

I am not stupid and let them steal my hardearned money, so I found another way to get this item.

I hope MOCO stops this bullchit and will harmonize the prices in Europe with the USA.

Aero8/ Switzerland

C2CRider · « **Reply #8 on:** November 14, 2011, 04:51:05 PM »

Sounds like the MOCO is run by the same bunch of controlling liberals that run Seattle. Think I'll call this dealership and purchase something / pretty much anything, from them. Don't buy the Ts anymore, can't see supporting China any more than I have too!

cvobiker · « **Reply #9 on:** November 15, 2011, 08:33:44 AM »

St. Paul Harley has got some Ballz and I applaud them for taking a stand

they earned my respect and I'll show it by supporting them through on-line purchases off their network.

Mano · « **Reply #10 on:** November 15, 2011, 09:51:50 AM »

Quote from: aero8 on November 14, 2011, 12:44:08 PM

I wish St.Paul HD all the Best and I hope that they will win this fight against MOCO.

Again I had a little experience with the part prices here in Switzerland.

Price in USA is 109 Dollars, here in Switzerland they asked for the very same item nearly 470 Dollars (430 sfr) ARE THEY CRAZY??? I am not stupid and let them steal my hardearned money, so I found another way to get this item.

I hope MOCO stops this bullchit and will harmonize the prices in Europe with the USA.

Aero8/ Switzerland

They do the same thing to Canadians too.

Wild Card · « **Reply #11 on:** November 15, 2011, 10:24:07 AM »

Unfortunately, it's a bit more complicated than HD screwing the consumers of other countries. What's at issue is what is called "transfer pricing" and is largely dictated by local governments, local markets and international tax law.

Alright, I'm done with the boring stuff. In reality, it sucks that the foreigners can't buy product through the U.S. dealers!

North Georgia Hawg · « **Reply #12 on:** November 15, 2011, 01:43:24 PM »

I don't understand why the prices are so much higher in other countries than in the US. Seems like the only explanation is price gouging going on out there. Three to four X pricing cannot be justified by import duties, shipping costs, local costs, or anything else I can understand...

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #13 on:** November 15, 2011, 03:37:23 PM »

Quote from: C2CRider on November 14, 2011, 04:51:05 PM

Sounds like the MOCO is run by the same bunch of controlling liberals that run Seattle.

On the contrary, I'd say the MOCO's profit side is run by a bunch of conservative business men/women who want to maximize profits for the shareholders by dictating business practices to the very people who make the profits for them, and to hell with the consumer.

JCZ · « **Reply #14 on:** November 15, 2011, 04:20:06 PM »

Guys....let's remember. Politics have no place on this board.

kraut · « **Reply #15 on:** November 15, 2011, 04:57:57 PM »

I believe I mentioned it before: the importers in Europe are subsidiaries of H-D. They do make the big cut, not the local dealers.

Nothing to do with taxes and the like: when I do import accessories from US and paid all taxes, duties and transportation they are still cheaper as our dealers will get them from the national importers - and we are not talking about 10% but 60%.

Ok, that used to be far less in the old days when the $ was a strong currency - but everybody else has adapted except Harley-Davidson ...

grc · « **Reply #16 on:** November 15, 2011, 05:43:41 PM »

It's a very simple situation. When there is no competition, many folks tend to charge what the market will bear, up to the point where the increased profits per unit do not offset the loss of sales. All you guys buying your stuff through the back door screwed up the fine-tuned formula's of those money hungry folks at H-D. As Kraut noted, most of those distributors in various foreign markets are just subsidiaries of the MoCo, and it's in their best interest to force everyone to deal with and through them.

It's not unusual for a company to restrict "grey market" sales, in fact it's very common. Buy a grey market camera or other electronic device for instance and then try to get warranty service. Better hope you saved enough buying it through unofficial channels to offset the repair costs you will have to eat yourself.

I don't have an issue with Harley insisting that folks support their own countries distribution channels; if everyone went through the back door there would be no distributors or dealers and you wouldn't be able to walk into a showroom and buy a bike. The issue I have is when H-D and those distributors play games with the pricing such that you pay two or three times the equivalent price in the home market. Currency valuations, duties, and shipping costs don't come close to explaining some of the ridiculous pricing that's been reported around here.

Jerry

backroad Mike · « **Reply #17 on:** November 15, 2011, 09:53:20 PM »

I've purchased from St. Paul harley in the past and I'd do it again.

miceracs · « **Reply #18 on:** November 16, 2011, 04:51:23 AM »

Perhaps it woud be better if ALL the affected HD dealers who trade out of state/country join forces and present HD with a big case.
I'm sure there are others within Europe who also trade cross borders.
I applaud St Paul's effort to raise this issue publically.

FLSTFI Dave · « **Reply #19 on:** November 16, 2011, 08:40:30 AM »

Quote from: NorthGeorgiaHawg on November 15, 2011, 01:43:24 PM

I don't understand why the prices are so much higher in other countries than in the US. Seems like the only explanation is price gouging going on out there. Three to four X pricing cannot be justified by import duties, shipping costs, local costs, or anything else I can understand...

Many countries have crazy taxes. I while I was in Norway the dealer in Stavanger was showing me sales tax on a bike was 100% of the sales price of the bike, and then they have a 25% VAT tax on top of that. So a 18K bike in the USA stickers for 24K there, and is 54K out the door to the consumer.

kraut · « **Reply #20 on:** November 16, 2011, 06:39:08 PM »

Quote from: miceracs on November 16, 2011, 04:51:23 AM

I'm sure there are others within Europe who also trade cross borders.

H-D won't try this approach in Europe as over here it would be just evidently illegal and severely fined well beyond any bargain to be gained with such a practice.

In Europe they do it the indirect way: they try to discontinue the franchise with dealers who sell over the channel - and there are several british "victims" already ...

cold1 · « **Reply #21 on:** November 20, 2011, 02:34:00 AM »

What The F--- free trade. The other AMERICAN BUILDERS are going to gain. MY last CVO.

CVOJOE · « **Reply #22 on:** November 20, 2011, 09:56:35 PM »

Maybe Chicago HD will join in the fray, they used to do a bunch of business across the border at one time.

kraut · « **Reply #23 on:** December 01, 2011, 04:16:23 AM »

in the press yesterday:

"St. Paul Harley dealer wins ruling on new sales rules

The Business Journal by Jim Hammerand, Minneapolis / St. Paul Business Journal
Date: Wednesday, November 30, 2011, 2:49pm CST..

A federal judge has put the brakes on new Harley-Davidson sales restrictions that a St. Paul dealership said would put it out of business.

U.S. District Judge Patrick Schiltz on Monday ordered Milwaukee-based Harley-Davidson Motor Co not to enforce its ban on sales of parts, accessories and apparel through third-party websites or to international customers. The judge's order is effective through Feb. 29.

St. Paul Harley-Davidson (incorporated as St. Paul Motorsports Inc.) sued the motorcycle manufacturer in October to fight the policies, which would eliminate about a quarter of the 72-year-old dealership's revenue.

St. Paul Harley owner Tom Giannetti, who also owns a Harley dealership in Eden Prairie, Minn., said motorcycle sales have been dropping since 2008, but that the business has remained profitable thanks to the sales Harley wants to ban.

Attorneys for both parties are negotiating a resolution to the dispute, they said in a recent court filing. Schiltz put the case on hold through January as those conversations continue, court records show."

(source: Milwaukee Business Journal)

that's a first step but doesn't neccessarily mean much ...

FLSTFI Dave · « **Reply #24 on:** December 01, 2011, 08:07:15 AM »

Well that is a little good news for a while. Just maybe the dealer does have a chance to win.

JCZ · « **Reply #25 on:** December 01, 2011, 08:55:41 AM »

The gauntlet has been thrown down.

Buy early · « **Reply #26 on:** December 01, 2011, 09:00:38 AM »

Hope he wins one for the dealers. How often do we say that?

Eagle Eye · « **Reply #27 on:** December 02, 2011, 09:22:39 AM »

Good news for our friends across the pond....

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2011/11/30/st-paul-harley-dealer-wins-ruling-on.html?ana=RSS&s=article_search&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+bizj_milwaukee+%28Milwaukee+Business+Journal%29

faceracer · « **Reply #28 on:** December 02, 2011, 01:53:19 PM »

Quote from: CVOJOE on November 20, 2011, 09:56:35 PM

Maybe Chicago HD will join in the fray, they used to do a bunch of business across the border at one time.

Something is up with Chicago HD. I have spent thousands with them in the last ten years. Last august I called to order a tire 4 times over a 3 day period and got put on hold indefinitely? I finally got pissed and went to Surdyke for my tire and got the same 20% discount. October 13th I ordered some saddle bag lid parts for my new speaker lids from Chicago's web site. Yesterday I called them and asked about my order. This guy tells me "They are having trouble with their orders sticking in the system" What ever the F**K that means and goes on the say my parts have not even been ordered from the moco! Its been nearly 3 months and they didn't order my parts? Man I was pissed. He said I could wait and see when they get the parts or cancel! I canceled and ordered from Surdyke and already have a ship date. I think I am done with Chicago but wonder if this has something to do with it? HMMMMM?

Twolanerider · « **Reply #29 on:** December 02, 2011, 02:05:02 PM »

Quote from: faceracer on December 02, 2011, 01:53:19 PM

Something is up with Chicago HD. I have spent thousands with them in the last ten years. Last august I called to order a tire 4 times over a 3 day period and got put on hold indefinitely? I finally got pissed and went to Surdyke for my tire and got the same 20% discount. October 13th I ordered some saddle bag lid parts for my new speaker lids from Chicago's web site. Yesterday I called them and asked about my order. This guy tells me "They are having trouble with their orders sticking in the system" What ever the F**K that means and goes on the say my parts have not even been ordered from the moco! Its been nearly 3 months and they didn't order my parts? Man I was pissed. He said I could wait and see when they get the parts or cancel! I canceled and ordered from Surdyke and already have a ship date. I think I am done with Chicago but wonder if this has something to do with it? HMMMMM?

Chicago HD has been having (or creating) significant problems for a long time. They don't even have the part number search tool on the home webpage any longer.

Try Lake Shore Harley. Good on screen tool for Harley and many aftermarket part numbers. Excellent service in my experience also.

OhioDave · « **Reply #30 on:** December 02, 2011, 09:06:35 PM »

Quote from: Twolanerider on December 02, 2011, 02:05:02 PM

Try Lake Shore Harley. Good on screen tool for Harley and many aftermarket part numbers. Excellent service in my experience also.

x2...LSHD1.com, Great customer service.

ThunderElectraCVO · « **Reply #31 on:** March 18, 2012, 06:25:16 AM »

http://www.stpaulharley.com/index.php

"Due to recent internet sales policy changes with Harley-Davidson Motor Company, we are no longer able to accept web site transactions for any of our products."

JCZ · « **Reply #32 on:** March 18, 2012, 09:04:38 AM »

Then it goes on to say:

This change does not affect our retail operation located at: 2899 Hudson Blvd, St. Paul MN 55128. Please feel free to contact us at 651-738-2168 for any of your Harley-Davidson® needs.

Does that mean they're going to continue to do business status quo, with the exception of internet? In other words, will the discounts continue for those that call in?

kraut · « **Reply #33 on:** March 18, 2012, 10:34:03 AM »

so the MoCo won. Bad news

FLHTCUSE7 · « **Reply #34 on:** March 18, 2012, 11:42:36 AM »

Bet they like to cancel him as a dealer. (Hard to do in this case, but sooner or later he is out)

cvobiker · « **Reply #35 on:** March 18, 2012, 11:44:59 AM »

Harley wants to play Gestapo tactics to screw us more?? 'SCREW THEM',, i'll find someone else's parts that are probably and no doubt better than their China Junk anyway.

Eagle Eye · « **Reply #36 on:** March 21, 2012, 02:49:48 PM »

There has to be something illegal about this, anti-trade laws? Something. This is not an "American" approach to doing business. Maybe the Chicoms are now running HD along with making many of the parts? What ever happened to good old competition? Arghhh.

harleydave · « **Reply #37 on:** March 21, 2012, 02:53:05 PM »

Maybe start a what fits what thread

Steph · « **Reply #38 on:** March 21, 2012, 03:13:34 PM »

I gave $45000 for my stock 2012 Road Glide Custom CVO : (

JCZ · « **Reply #39 on:** March 21, 2012, 03:38:46 PM »

I just called St. Paul HD and talked to a gentleman in the internet sales dept. He said the whole internet sales dept. is being laid off and their last day is 3/30. Sad situation for them, sad for the customers, etc.

So everybody will have to start paying full retail or buying aftermarket........which is most likely made in USA, anyway!

SteveFLHTK · « **Reply #40 on:** March 21, 2012, 04:24:00 PM »

Not necessarily. Some Dealerships will still offer a local discount. They just can't do it over the internet, or advertise the discount.

Wild Card · « **Reply #41 on:** March 21, 2012, 04:34:05 PM »

Quote from: SteveFLHTK on March 21, 2012, 04:24:00 PM

Not necessarily. Some Dealerships will still offer a local discount. They just can't do it over the internet, or advertise the discount.

Really? Lakeshore HD still offers the 20% online discount. I thought this suit only curtailed selling items overseas. It wasn't so much an issue of the discount as it was addressing grey market conditions that hurt the local dealership's profits.

JCZ · « **Reply #42 on:** March 21, 2012, 05:14:27 PM »

Quote from: Wild Card on March 21, 2012, 04:34:05 PM

Really? Lakeshore HD still offers the 20% online discount. I thought this suit only curtailed selling items overseas. It wasn't so much an issue of the discount as it was addressing grey market conditions that hurt the local dealership's profits.

I believe you're correct. At least that was what he talked with me about.....no more shipping to an overseas address and can't ship to a known re-shipper.

He said they'll still offer their standard discount at the parts counter for domestic sales but that's no more than 12%-15% at the most. I explained that there are to many dealerships selling at 20% discount to compete at that percentage.

ice6900 · « **Reply #43 on:** March 21, 2012, 05:56:47 PM »

When are you guys gonna stop writing about all this on the forum?
I guess you wont be happy until every Stealer is confined to selling in there designated neighbourhood @ full market price!

WE ALL KNOW THIS FORUM IS MONITORED BY THOSE WHO WANT TO SCREW YOUR A$$E$ FOR TOP $

Skillet · « **Reply #44 on:** March 21, 2012, 06:06:08 PM »

JCZ · « **Reply #45 on:** March 21, 2012, 06:26:07 PM »

Quote from: ice6900 on March 21, 2012, 05:56:47 PM

When are you guys gonna stop writing about all this on the forum?
I guess you wont be happy until every Stealer is confined to selling in there designated neighbourhood @ full market price!

WE ALL KNOW THIS FORUM IS MONITORED BY THOSE WHO WANT TO SCREW YOUR A$$E$ FOR TOP $

No need to worry.....you can buy aftermarket parts, American made, better quality for less money, anyway! But when they read this I don't think it (or anything else on this forum) will be a big surprise to them.

Eagle Eye · « **Reply #46 on:** March 21, 2012, 08:13:03 PM »

Quote from: JCZ on March 21, 2012, 03:38:46 PM

I just called St. Paul HD and talked to a gentleman in the internet sales dept. He said the whole internet sales dept. is being laid off and their last day is 3/30. Sad situation for them, sad for the customers, etc.

So everybody will have to start paying full retail or buying aftermarket........which is most likely made in USA, anyway!

So, here we are in a National recession and this anti-business and anti-trade decision was made by MoCo causing the layoff of workers and possibly the eventual loss of a business. Nice way to stimulate the economy. Many of those employees most likely ride...do you think they're going to want to keep Harleys after this? Where's the news media? If this is happening at Lakeshore, it must be replecated elsewhere.

tazmun · « **Reply #47 on:** March 21, 2012, 09:13:55 PM »

No body seems to get the way business runs!!! Look at banking, big business....................
PROFITS FOR THE STOCK HOLDERS!!!!
BONUSES FOR THE BIG WIGS!!!!!!

The LEADERS of Harley-Davidson want to thank all those who continue to by our product!!!

Employees who build them!!!! They are replaceable at much lower wages!!!!!!!

Oh need I say BIG OIL!

CVOStreetglide · « **Reply #48 on:** March 21, 2012, 10:19:08 PM »

This is HD Corporate's way to balance the motorcycle trade deficit.

grc · « **Reply #49 on:** March 21, 2012, 10:54:48 PM »

Similar actions are being taken (and hotly debated) in the consumer electronics business these days. We used to have a retail pricing system in widespread use called MAP, or Minimum Advertised Price. The corporations would set a MAP for their products, and the retailers could not advertise a lower price. If they did, and got caught, they could lose various incentive payments from the manufacturer for instance. But the retailer still retained the right to sell the product for whatever price he wanted.

Companies like Apple and Bose went a different way, and they came up with a system commonly called UPP, or Unilateral Pricing Policy. This one works like this: the manufacturer determines the minimum retail price, and if a retailer is caught selling below that price the manufacturer can refuse to sell that retailer any more product. Instant loss of product will tend to get most retailers to toe the line. This is the system that many of us, including me, thought was illegal under Federal laws and regulations. Well, SURPRISE SURPRISE. Somewhere along the way, probably when a lot of other financial rules and regulations were being traded away to the big shots and corporations, the rules changed. Now this sort of price fixing is legal, and retailers no longer have the right with to set their own prices when dealing with UPP manufacturer's or distributors. And I'm getting the impression that this is the type of pricing policy that H-D is embracing. Just one more in a long line of reasons why I won't be buying any more of their crap.

There is currently a lot of conversation going on about this UPP pricing regarding a couple big names in the HDTV industry. It seems Samsung and Sony have announced UPP pricing on their high end HDTV's starting in April. They claim they are doing so to protect the brick and mortar stores from the internet sellers. Sounds a bit like the BS coming out of Milwaukee, but at least with the consumer electronics folks you can see where it's become common for people to go to the retail stores to scope out the various models, pick the brains of the sales associates in those places where they still have knowledgeable folks, and then go home and find the lowest price at some online only store. I don't see that happening with a Harley, however. First, where you going to find a knowledgeable sales person to pick their brain? And you can't buy the actual bikes online, just the parts and accessories.

Anyhow, I expect the Samsung and Sony experiment to fail since there are plenty of other excellent alternatives, like LG, that aren't following their lead on the pricing deal. If I can buy a top of the line LG for $800 less than the price controlled Samsung for instance, I have to believe Samsung will lose a significant number of sales. Apple gets away with this kind of pricing because of the cult following. And maybe that same kind of cult following will let Harley get away with it for awhile. But the time will come when their patents expire and the aftermarket can crank out all sorts of better parts for lower prices, just like they did with the earlier models.

JMHO - Jerry

Wild Card · « **Reply #50 on:** March 22, 2012, 10:03:28 AM »

Quote from: grc on March 21, 2012, 10:54:48 PM

Similar actions are being taken (and hotly debated) in the consumer electronics business these days. We used to have a retail pricing system in widespread use called MAP, or Minimum Advertised Price. The corporations would set a MAP for their products, and the retailers could not advertise a lower price. If they did, and got caught, they could lose various incentive payments from the manufacturer for instance. But the retailer still retained the right to sell the product for whatever price he wanted.

Companies like Apple and Bose went a different way, and they came up with a system commonly called UPP, or Unilateral Pricing Policy. This one works like this: the manufacturer determines the minimum retail price, and if a retailer is caught selling below that price the manufacturer can refuse to sell that retailer any more product. Instant loss of product will tend to get most retailers to toe the line. This is the system that many of us, including me, thought was illegal under Federal laws and regulations. Well, SURPRISE SURPRISE. Somewhere along the way, probably when a lot of other financial rules and regulations were being traded away to the big shots and corporations, the rules changed. Now this sort of price fixing is legal, and retailers no longer have the right with to set their own prices when dealing with UPP manufacturer's or distributors. And I'm getting the impression that this is the type of pricing policy that H-D is embracing. Just one more in a long line of reasons why I won't be buying any more of their crap.

There is currently a lot of conversation going on about this UPP pricing regarding a couple big names in the HDTV industry. It seems Samsung and Sony have announced UPP pricing on their high end HDTV's starting in April. They claim they are doing so to protect the brick and mortar stores from the internet sellers. Sounds a bit like the BS coming out of Milwaukee, but at least with the consumer electronics folks you can see where it's become common for people to go to the retail stores to scope out the various models, pick the brains of the sales associates in those places where they still have knowledgeable folks, and then go home and find the lowest price at some online only store. I don't see that happening with a Harley, however. First, where you going to find a knowledgeable sales person to pick their brain? And you can't buy the actual bikes online, just the parts and accessories.

Anyhow, I expect the Samsung and Sony experiment to fail since there are plenty of other excellent alternatives, like LG, that aren't following their lead on the pricing deal. If I can buy a top of the line LG for $800 less than the price controlled Samsung for instance, I have to believe Samsung will lose a significant number of sales. Apple gets away with this kind of pricing because of the cult following. And maybe that same kind of cult following will let Harley get away with it for awhile. But the time will come when their patents expire and the aftermarket can crank out all sorts of better parts for lower prices, just like they did with the earlier models.

JMHO - Jerry

That's all fine and well, but I think you're applying the wrong legal precedent in this situation. The UPP applies only within the US and it's not evident that HD is engaging in that (seeing as I just ordered a ton of Harley parts from Lake Shore Harley in IL a few days ago and got the 20% discount). If the discounts suddenly ended within the US, then yes, the UPP may be the reason.

This St. Paul case involved Mother HD attempting to dissuade the practice of grey market sales within its dealer network. The jobs that are being lost in the U.S. because of this are actually netting against the jobs that would have been lost when these european dealers closed due to this practice. Yeah, yeah, I know you all think America is number one and all jobs should stay in America, but ask the european riders how they would feel if they suddenly had no authorized dealer to shoot the sh*t at, get serviced, meet up with their HOG chapter, etc... So, in effect, they are not screwing us, they are protecting their foreign dealers. How they price their product in these other markets, is a whole other topic (which very well may be considered screwing the european rider).

Sure, it sucks that they can't get a cheaper part because their market has been deemed to bear a higher price. Most manufacturers have their way of dealing with this. For instance, try to save yourself a few bucks and buy a Rolex in India then get it serviced here; that warranty won't be honored. This is why these companies have different product codes that are specific to the region they are sold in.

ice6900 · « **Reply #51 on:** March 22, 2012, 01:30:33 PM »

Quote from: JCZ on March 21, 2012, 06:26:07 PM

No need to worry.....you can buy aftermarket parts, American made, better quality for less money, anyway! But when they read this I don't think it (or anything else on this forum) will be a big surprise to them.

My point was that every time somebody mentions this or that dealer giving %discount, this is duly noted by the Moco spies. Mark my words slowly all of the discounting will be curtailed.
I totally agree JC, I can and do buy better quality aftermarket parts for better quality and less money!

kraut · « **Reply #52 on:** March 23, 2012, 02:36:20 AM »

@Nigel:

the MoCo doesn't need to watch this forum for this sort of information. The other dealers and the district reps will know even earlier than we do and internet offers are under their close watch worldwide anyway.

harleydave · « **Reply #53 on:** March 23, 2012, 06:30:00 AM »

Seems to me that they are focused on different markets for thier products away from the saturated norms.
Service is poor, parts are astronomical, and yes there is an alternative supply of good (often better) quality fair priced add ons and service parts.

New Triumph looks good !!!!!

Wild Card · « **Reply #54 on:** March 23, 2012, 09:43:26 AM »

Quote from: harleydave on March 23, 2012, 06:30:00 AM

New Triumph looks good !!!!!

Good luck with that dealer network! And c'mon, nothing looks as good as our Springers!!!

kraut · « **Reply #55 on:** April 12, 2012, 10:29:54 AM »

the case got formally closed yesterday. I would like to know what Harley paid to silence Giannetti ...

FLHTCUSE7 · « **Reply #56 on:** April 12, 2012, 03:01:32 PM »

More interesting to me is how long it will take before his franchise is gone bye bye.

Buy early · « **Reply #57 on:** April 12, 2012, 04:11:38 PM »

Quote from: FLHTCUSE7 on April 12, 2012, 03:01:32 PM

More interesting to me is how long it will take before his franchise is gone bye bye.

Well, they're by far the largest dealer in the Twin Cities with two relatively new store locations so if the MoCo decided to punish them I would be surprised. This is said with prejudice as they are my home dealer for sales and service and a good one at that.

Georgehjr · « **Reply #58 on:** April 12, 2012, 09:26:47 PM »

St. Paul Harley-Davidson and the Motor Co. have settled a lawsuit over dealers selling official Harley-Davidson goods using third-party websites like eBay and Amazon.com. And although the parties aren't yet talking, it doesn't look like it went the dealer's way.

Terms of the settlement were not disclosed, other than a judge’s April 11 dismissal order stating that both parties would handle their own legal fees. The dismissal is “with prejudice,” meaning the parties cannot re-file the case.

Attorney Douglas Boettge, who represented St. Paul Harley-Davidson in the lawsuit, confirmed the settlement. Dealer principal Tom Giannetti and attorneys for the Motor Co. did not immediately return calls seeking comments.

Although the terms of the settlement are under wraps, it doesn’t look like it went well for St. Paul Harley-Davidson. The dealership’s eBay store now carries the following disclaimer:

“Thank you for your interest in St. Paul Harley-Davidson®. Due to recent internet sales policy changes with Harley-Davidson Motor Company, we are no longer able to accept third party website transactions for any of our products. We will continue to honor our thirty (30) day return and exchange policy from the date of your purchase’s receipt. Please contact us directly at esales@stpaulhd.com for specific instructions regarding exchanges and returns. We thank you for your past business and support, and appreciate your understanding.”

Dealernews was unable to find a listing for St. Paul Harley-Davidson as a seller on Amazon.com.

The dealership sued The Motor Co. last November, claiming the OEM's restrictions on foreign sales by U.S. dealers and sales through third-party websites are unfair, and undercut dealer profits.

St. Paul Harley-Davidson owner Tom Giannetti alleged in the complaint that new restrictions on PG&A sales “would deprive [St. Paul Harley-Davidson] of literally millions of dollars of annual revenues, thereby jeopardizing its ability to remain in business.” He claims the dealership made $8 million a year in revenue from online and foreign sales from 2008 through 2010.

According to the lawsuit, the OEM notified U.S. dealers that, starting Aug. 1, 2011, they would no longer be able to sell Harley-Davidson parts and accessories to any customer outside the United States. The lawsuit said that starting Jan. 1, 2012, U.S. dealers may not sell new parts or accessories on third-party websites. The dealer claimed that violated his franchise agreement.

FLHTCUSE7 · « **Reply #59 on:** April 12, 2012, 11:52:31 PM »

Idiots in my opinion. It's like suing your wife and then expect to live happily ever after.

I give them 3-5 ( years ) then they will no Longer be a HD dealer. Or sold so a new owner can start fresh.

This guy severly burned himself in the market place. I hope he can afford it.

I am not taking sides but business is business.

Author Topic: St. Paul H-D sues the MoCo for restriction of international sales (Read 15999 times)

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