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Author Topic: last Saturday my bike bleed out  (Read 12975 times)

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gabe

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last Saturday my bike bleed out
« on: April 07, 2012, 07:21:19 AM »

 on 3/31/1012 after leaving dealer for i pod problem i hit the highway for the ride home about 35 miles, my son following behind me . we stop for some starbucks coffee about 2 miles from dealer . we get ready to leave and i did not finish mine so in cup holder it goes , so riding home i see my son switches lanes and pull up a long side me and points to my cup holder that my coffee was splashing out of cup , splashing on his bike ,like a good father i flip him off and ride on .
we get to the light right off highway and my bike is smoking like its on fire , shut here down i fast as i can and take a look see is bleeding oil out the air cleaner   there is now a 6 inch puddle under bike and oil all over the bike.  i check the oil there isenought to get home about a 1 mile get her home clean the oil 6 pm dealer closed ,callMondayy pick it upWednesdayy call me Friday did a pressure test backcylinderr not holding  order rings for it will re-ring it  15,500 miles on motor never burned a drop of oil now the rings are bad? they have not been inside of it yet ,i wondering what esle they will find?
2011 cvo ultra roadglide
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 08:09:20 AM by gabe »
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2012, 07:46:23 AM »

on 3/31/1012 after leaving dealer for i pod problem i hit the highway for the ride home about 35 miles, my son following behind me . we stop for some starbucks coffee about 2 miles from dealer . we get ready to leave and i did not finish mine so in cup holder it goes , so riding home i see my son switches lanes and pull up a long side me and points to my cup holder that my coffee was splashing out of cup , splashing on his bike ,like a good father i flip him off and ride on .
we get to the light right off highway and my bike is smoking like its on fire , shut here down i fast as i can and take a look see is bleeding oil out the air cleaner   there is now a 6 inch puddle under bike and oil all over the bike.  i check the oil there isenought to get home about a 1 mile get her home clean the oil 6 pm dealer closed ,callMondayy pick it upWednesdayy call meFridayy did a pressure test backcylinderr not holding  order rings for it will re-ring it  15,500 miles on motor never burned a drop of oil now the rings are bad? they have not been inside of it yet ,i wondering what esle they will find?
2011 cvo ultra roadglide
Bad or cracked oil pump/camplate...too much run out...etc.
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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2012, 08:08:37 AM »

 doc she ran all the way home like a champ after you tuned it never had a problem with it in fact i put a 1000 miles on it after tune ran great   thanks for your input i will found out more once they get into motor
thanks for your reply and input
gabe
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2012, 08:46:55 AM »

Quote from: gabe link=topic=72778.msg 1003360#msg 1003360 date=1333800517
doc she ran all the way home like a champ after you tuned it never had a problem with it in fact i put a 1000 miles on it after tune ran great   thanks for your input i will found out more once they get into motor
thanks for your reply and input
gabe
Thats bitter/sweet right now but I glad she ran well to the last minute, however I can't see rings going bad all of a sudden. I can see the cam chest loading up with oil being forced out of the breathers with every down stroke of the pistons. If the engine can't breath and they do a compression test I can see the rings not holding or getting damaged from excessive crankcase pressures, but for the rings to go first I have a real problem believing.
I'm interested what they find.
Doc
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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2012, 08:52:50 AM »

Thats bitter/sweet right now but I glad she ran well to the last minute, however I can't see rings going bad all of a sudden. I can see the cam chest loading up with oil being forced out of the breathers with every down stroke of the pistons. If the engine can't breath and they do a compression test I can see the rings not holding or getting damaged from excessive crankcase pressures, but for the rings to go first I have a real problem believing.
I'm interested what they find.
Doc
  iam glad you jumped in on this   my dealer is the best around  i think like you  i think theres more too it then just rings
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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2012, 11:54:15 AM »

 update motor apart and not looking good both jugs are bad rings stuck in piston  cams look ok
motor got so hot that the line for clutch will need  to be replaced   need ok to split case open from mother ship to see if  bad/  seals in heads need to be replaced   i guess to hope for now is mother ship says new motor but i would love to have dealer build it
motor slushed up i change oil 2500 miles ago
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2012, 03:12:42 PM »

Gabe
Did you feel the power decreasing before all this happened? There has to be a reason the engine got that hot all of a sudden. If it was sumping it would heat up but you would feel the power loss...it would be like you trying to run through a swimming pool. If the oil pump failed or dropped below 12 lbs the piston jets would stop working and that would heat up the cylinders and pistons quickly.
I'd like to see the run out and the oil pump...I still say there was a oil pump failure.
Keep us posted
Doc
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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2012, 07:30:49 PM »

 doc i belive there was a failure in the oil pump also but never lost power  they even rode the bike in off trailer and thought nothing was as bad as they found it .  thanks for responing this week we will found out if they replace it or rebuild it
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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2012, 04:43:49 PM »

 harlay came out and will not fix bike and block  vin for warranty work
 there reason is
red line oil
after market exhaust
after market tunner
 what i have is
a tts tuner
fullsac b head pipe
cfr knokoff mufflers
   MOTHER SHIP SC**WING YOU AGAIN
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2012, 05:59:01 PM »


Gabe,

That's really sucks!!!!

How can they say that your TTS tuner, X-pipe, and pipes was the cause of the seized piston, rings and oil pump?

Sorry to hear, keep us posted.

YELLOWBIRD
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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2012, 06:11:34 PM »

 HERE ARE SOME PICS
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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2012, 06:12:33 PM »

 MORE  15550 MILES
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2012, 06:13:55 PM »

 MORE PUMP LOOKED GOOD OIL PRESSURE  WAS FOUND
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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2012, 06:15:15 PM »

ANOTHER
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2012, 06:16:55 PM »

REAR HEAD
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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2012, 06:18:24 PM »

 FRONT HEAD
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2012, 07:01:19 PM »

Another site member just sent a "take a look at this thread" type of PM.  Terribly sorry for your issues and the lack of support from Mother Harley.  The pictures and the circumstances beg some questions if you don't mind though.

Especially for so few miles that engine is filthy inside.  What's the riding environment like or were the parts somehow left in a way to look that bad after disassembly?  And speaking of disassembly; the shop yanked the cam plate and just left the lifters fall out?  They're that ham fisted but still question you on modifications?  They've got stones in the XL category.

Lastly, on the modifications, just because Mother Harley tells you pound sand because of your mods doesn't absolutely mean you'll have to.  Speak to someone above the dealership level.  Remind them that the controlling language of the guiding statute on warranty handling requires that they prove that modifications caused the problem before they can disallow warranty due to the modifications. 

Granted, the engine is a mess inside.  God knows what's really going on to cause it to look that way or how much the condition aided and abetted the failure.  But that's all a separate issue from Mother Harley proving your external mods caused your internal failure.

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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2012, 07:16:07 PM »

Another site member just sent a "take a look at this thread" type of PM.  Terribly sorry for your issues and the lack of support from Mother Harley.  The pictures and the circumstances beg some questions if you don't mind though.

Especially for so few miles that engine is filthy inside.  What's the riding environment like or were the parts somehow left in a way to look that bad after disassembly?  And speaking of disassembly; the shop yanked the cam plate and just left the lifters fall out?  They're that ham fisted but still question you on modifications?  They've got stones in the XL category.

Lastly, on the modifications, just because Mother Harley tells you pound sand because of your mods doesn't absolutely mean you'll have to.  Speak to someone above the dealership level.  Remind them that the controlling language of the guiding statute on warranty handling requires that they prove that modifications caused the problem before they can disallow warranty due to the modifications. 

Granted, the engine is a mess inside.  God knows what's really going on to cause it to look that way or how much the condition aided and abetted the failure.  But that's all a separate issue from Mother Harley proving your external mods caused your internal failure.


oil was changed ever 3000 miles  they said the oil got so hot that it burned the oil never had a problem with it until now called mother ship  hung up 3 times today on me would not let me talk with anybody higher up  said the rep was out and said because of tunner/oil /and mufflers it is out of warrenty now  and hear i bought a extanted warranty is void
i payed for it and still paying on it they vioded that also
if i was a lawyer
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2012, 07:38:58 PM »

this is the ugly side of the whole warranty vs modifications issue. :(

pay a lawyer and you may get the engine fixed - or mayby just get to pay the lawer

the paper work for the engine warranty and the paperwork for the extended service contract says that if its modified to be not street legal its not covered. super sucks but that IS the way it IS.

too bad all around, its going to cost a bit to fix it.

*sigh*

- you really should be able to get warranty coverage on electrical parts - they are not involved with the drive train

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2012, 07:43:20 PM »

there IS one good thing to this whole disaster.

you could just put a 120 in there - the warranty issue is now a non issue, you can go as big as you want  ;D
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2012, 07:46:45 PM »

It's the inconsistency of the application of the warranty by the mothership that is mind numbing...  Seemingly exact circumstances result in polar opposite decisions...

Out of curiosity, who did the disassembly of the motor?    :nixweiss:
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2012, 07:48:26 PM »

It's the inconsistency of the application of the warranty by the mothership that is mind numbing...  Seemingly exact circumstances result in polar opposite decisions...

Out of curiosity, who did the disassembly of the motor?    :nixweiss:
dealer did it
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2012, 07:51:00 PM »

dealer did it

Which dealer?  I don't think I'd want the tech who took it apart be the one putting it back together...  What a mess...   :nervous:
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2012, 07:57:15 PM »

 its apart on a cart he did not make a mess
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2012, 08:13:41 PM »

 Lawyer time! Dons right about the lifters. You not supposed to just pull the camplate out and let the lifters fall.
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2012, 08:18:40 PM »

its apart on a cart he did not make a mess


o.k. ....
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2012, 08:28:20 PM »

Is that what 'burned' oil looks like?  :nixweiss: Never seen that molassas look before. (well, not since the ole STP days)  spyder
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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2012, 08:33:52 PM »

 yes they said it got so hot it burned
 as far as the motor begin taken apart iam no a harley mech.
never build one but willing to learn
i have a lot of car time even build a 409
never been in a hd motor but before this is over i bet i will know more then i wish to
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2012, 08:45:42 PM »

yes they said it got so hot it burned
 as far as the motor begin taken apart iam no a harley mech.
never build one but willing to learn
i have a lot of car time even build a 409
never been in a hd motor but before this is over i bet i will know more then i wish to

409 is a tricky build.  Takes a good touch and long ring compressor to get the rings by those chambers in the cylinder.  Even trickier machining those cylinders.  Nothing tricky about working on the twin cam though.  A few tools unto itself for both work and machining.  But they're by no means radical. 

It had to have gotten very hot for that oil to look that bad.  That's nasty.  Obiously none of your external modifications could account for that.  I suppose an incredibly bad tuning effort could be blamed as some partial cause.  But you said the bike ran well.....

You can cancel the extended warranty for a pro-rated refund.  I'd still bitch at speak to Mother Harley for an explanation as to how your changes caused this problem.  The simple fact of having made the changes isn't enough.  The changes have to be the cause.

FWIW as some others have mentioned that disassembly is as nasty as the engine is dirty.  Someone took it apart either without care or already having decided it was shelled and it didn't matter.  Neither of which is the type of care you want to see from a tech doing internal engine maintenance.  Watch your back (and your bike) as all this progresses.
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2012, 08:47:52 PM »

Is that what 'burned' oil looks like?  :nixweiss: Never seen that molassas look before. (well, not since the ole STP days)  spyder

Ugly isn't it.  Seeing the pictures isn't all though.  If it looks like that the small the goes along with it is unmistakeable and unpleasant.  Nothing good about any of this.  Would be difficult to trust much of anything in the motor at this point.
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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2012, 08:51:32 PM »

409 is a tricky build.  Takes a good touch and long ring compressor to get the rings by those chambers in the cylinder.  Even trickier machining those cylinders.  Nothing tricky about working on the twin cam though.  A few tools unto itself for both work and machining.  But they're by no means radical. 

It had to have gotten very hot for that oil to look that bad.  That's nasty.  Obiously none of your external modifications could account for that.  I suppose an incredibly bad tuning effort could be blamed as some partial cause.  But you said the bike ran well.....

You can cancel the extended warranty for a pro-rated refund.  I'd still bitch at speak to Mother Harley for an explanation as to how your changes caused this problem.  The simple fact of having made the changes isn't enough.  The changes have to be the cause.

FWIW as some others have mentioned that disassembly is as nasty as the engine is dirty.  Someone took it apart either without care or already having decided it was shelled and it didn't matter.  Neither of which is the type of care you want to see from a tech doing internal engine maintenance.  Watch your back (and your bike) as all this progresses.
doc tuned the bike at bike week and ran a 1000 miles after tune  with no problem
i dont belive it was the tune
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2012, 09:11:26 PM »

I've seen bike week traffic so bad that you could cook a engine if you just let it happen.  :-\ spyder
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2012, 11:16:28 PM »

 Just curious. When they drained the oil, how much was left in the oil pan. Wa there a huge amount in the camcover? It almost looks like the engine ran out of oil! Since most synthetics burn at something around 400 degrees, it stands that it got over that in the rear cylinder at least. The burnt residue (thats what it appears tobe) in the camchest suggests very little oil. Was the oil pump loose on the camplate? was the pump o ring intact?
I feel bad for you gabe, I hope you can stir HD into standing behind its product here.   twinotter
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2012, 02:25:38 AM »

how about having an independent surveyor checking this engine?
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2012, 05:18:59 AM »

Just curious. When they drained the oil, how much was left in the oil pan. Wa there a huge amount in the camcover? It almost looks like the engine ran out of oil! Since most synthetics burn at something around 400 degrees, it stands that it got over that in the rear cylinder at least. The burnt residue (thats what it appears tobe) in the camchest suggests very little oil. Was the oil pump loose on the camplate? was the pump o ring intact?
I feel bad for you gabe, I hope you can stir HD into standing behind its product here.   twinotter
never loss oil presure oil was 2 lines below the mark had checked the thursday before and chage it 2000 miles before this
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2012, 09:06:04 AM »

Which dealer?  I don't think I'd want the tech who took it apart be the one putting it back together...  What a mess...   :nervous:

I believe that was Cox Harley Davidson in Rock Hill SC.

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2012, 09:16:53 AM »

harlay came out and will not fix bike and block  vin for warranty work
 there reason is
red line oil
after market exhaust
after market tunner

 what i have is
a tts tuner
fullsac b head pipe
cfr knokoff mufflers
   MOTHER SHIP SC**WING YOU AGAIN

When my 09 SEUC died it had,
red line oil
after market exhaust
after market tuner
and HD of Charlotte rebuilt it under warranty.
The front cylinder exhaust valve stuck open, hit the piston and it was downhill from there.
I got a new head, rings, changed cams and the bike had a new lease on life.
Although Harley approved my repair I knew my dealer would fix the issue regardless.
Dealers have a lot of latitude when there are gray areas.
Good luck Gabe, I hope your wallet doesn't take a big hit on this.

SBB
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2012, 09:37:09 AM »

When my 09 SEUC died it had,
red line oil
after market exhaust
after market tuner
and HD of Charlotte rebuilt it under warranty.
The front cylinder exhaust valve stuck open, hit the piston and it was downhill from there.
I got a new head, rings, changed cams and the bike had a new lease on life.
Although Harley approved my repair I knew my dealer would fix the issue regardless.
Dealers have a lot of latitude when there are gray areas.
Good luck Gabe, I hope your wallet doesn't take a big hit on this.

SBB



I'm not an attorney, but this appears to be a qualifying precedent.  If you can give Gabe more details, such as when the repair was approved and where; along with the circumstances, it could help him with an appeal.  The dweeb who turned it down in the first place is wrong.  The modifications did not cause the engine to fail.   


IMHO: Fight Gabe!!! You have a warrantied repair that should be approved, along with restoration of the original warranty.

Good luck! 
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2012, 09:48:22 AM »


I'm not an attorney, but this appears to be a qualifying precedent.  If you can give Gabe more details, such as when the repair was approved and where; along with the circumstances, it could help him with an appeal.  The dweeb who turned it down in the first place is wrong.  The modifications did not cause the engine to fail.   


IMHO: Fight Gabe!!! You have a warrantied repair that should be approved, along with restoration of the original warranty.

Good luck! 


My experience with my dealer is an open book.
I just hope Gabe doesn't have to fund the repairs himself.

SBB
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2012, 10:20:04 AM »


I'm not an attorney, but this appears to be a qualifying precedent. 


I'm sure there are many qualifying precedent's.  And I'm sure there are just as many precedents of the MOCO denying warranty for the same circumstances.  That's the frustrating part of how the MOCO applies their warranty. 

For Gabe to be told his modifications also cancel his extended warranty smells of dealership b.s.  The extended warranty is a third party warranty, and neither the MOCO or the dealership makes warranty decisions for the third party...
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2012, 11:22:28 AM »

This is wrong on a number of levels.  I don't know Doc, but from all I've read, he knows what he's doing when it comes to tuning a bike.  So that is the first pile of poop.  The use of Redline Oil is another pile.  And changing the exhaust is something the dealers ENCOURAGE you to do before it leaves the shop, and I don't know the actual numbers, but I'd bet that at least 70% of all HD bikes have non-stock exhaust of one sort or another.  Finally, HD cannot "cancel" your extended warranty, as they do not provide the coverage for the INSURANCE policy that it is.  That is a third party...look at your ESP documents...give them a call, just to find out if HD actually cancelled it.  They do not have the authority to do so.  It's the same as if you had a wreck and HD called your insurance company and cancelled the policy for you or for the provider.  I would not give them any details other than asking if it's been cancelled, and if it has, I'd get it in writing from them who did so.

Most HD dealers I've been to sell Vance and Hines exhaust systems and Race Tuners.  They do NOT tell the buyer that the items they are selling to you void your warranty, or the extended warranty.  Because you did not purchase parts that HD sells through their dealership, but function exactly the same way (the same people that used to make Race Tuners make the TTS), does not make those parts more potentially damaging.

It's not my decision, but I'd find me a good consumer attorney.  I would also contact Redline, Fullsac, and Doc, just to put them on notice that HD is claiming their product caused a catastrophic engine failure.  Then I'd get the reasons for denial (or let the attorney do so) in writing from the MOCO.

I would not trust this engine rebuilt unless they split the cases and did so from the ground up.  Or replaced the entire engine.  Either way, it's going to be...or would be for me...big bucks.  Enough $$$ that at least talking to an attorney would be worth the effort.  It may only take a letter from the right person.
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2012, 12:55:16 PM »

harlay came out and will not fix bike and block  vin for warranty work
 there reason is
red line oil
after market exhaust
after market tunner
 what i have is
a tts tuner
fullsac b head pipe
cfr knokoff mufflers
   MOTHER SHIP SC**WING YOU AGAIN

And you have that in writing? signed by who? Factory or dealership?
I smell a rat.
 8)
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2012, 03:36:44 PM »

 thanks guy for all the support
been back it touch with mother ship after i sleep on the problem   they are saying that the tts tuner made the bike over heat and burn the oil  is this possible ??
as far as doc i have been in touch with him he has been great as far as suport and knowledge
thanks doc
   

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2012, 03:57:03 PM »

Look at the law. It is the MoCo burden to PROVE the aftermarket part caused the problem. If they can't they MUST cover it under warranty.

Ask if they have ever heard of the "Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act" (Federal Law enacted in 1975. It is the federal statute that governs warranties on consumer products). They must prove that any Non-Harley addition was the direct cause of the failure.
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2012, 04:48:01 PM »

Look at the law. It is the MoCo burden to PROVE the aftermarket part caused the problem. If they can't they MUST cover it under warranty.

Ask if they have ever heard of the "Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act" (Federal Law enacted in 1975. It is the federal statute that governs warranties on consumer products). They must prove that any Non-Harley addition was the direct cause of the failure.

That is the bottom line.  Mention that to them and see what they say.

Or better, let an attorney mention it to them in writing, after you get in writing that they say the TTS caused the failure.  You can go back and forth with the dealer and the MOCO, with this he said/she said stuff.  Get them to put in writing exactly what they say caused the failure and why, then move forward in whatever way you choose.  I would not put up with them "saying" this or that for one instant.  It sounds to me like you are going to have to fight on this one.
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2012, 06:40:38 PM »

I have never heard of such blazen bullchips from a supoposed reputable company. IF the TTS caused the issue, it would have happened long before 1000miles. Doc will have records of his tuning and AFR settings. In all likelyhood, it would be richer thruout the tune.
I know one thing, I won't be buying any more HD products, can't trust 'em.  twinotter
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2012, 06:50:30 PM »

again: have an independent surveyor research the reason of this failure and document his findings before any evidence is lost in the usual shop chaos. Then you may consider to take things further.
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2012, 07:30:16 PM »

 this is worth reading a fellow cvo brother has send me this  but at this time i will not give his name until he says it ok .
this should be made into a sticky its that good 
thank you
http://www.impalaclub.com/naisso/magmoss.htm
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2012, 07:31:09 PM »

When Gabe called today we opened his tune....the Rear VE Table is actually richer than the Front VE table. They are grabbing at anything they can right now to get the blame on someone else. You have to ask yourself how many more 110'' motors have rear cylinder problems that they want to sweep under the carpet..... :nervous:
Doc
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2012, 07:59:24 PM »

When Gabe called today we opened his tune....the Rear VE Table is actually richer than the Front VE table. They are grabbing at anything they can right now to get the blame on someone else. You have to ask yourself how many more 110'' motors have rear cylinder problems that they want to sweep under the carpet..... :nervous:
Doc
doc
i know we kick around pulling the ecm i think it may be a good thing i will pay them to remove it and you think i could send it off to tts to have them pull information
also in touch with redline  they said there oil burning point 20/60 is over 500 dgrees so iam going to get a sample friday and send it in
thanks gabe
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2012, 08:23:06 PM »

doc
i know we kick around pulling the ecm i think it may be a good thing i will pay them to remove it and you think i could send it off to tts to have them pull information
also in touch with redline  they said there oil burning point 20/60 is over 500 dgrees so iam going to get a sample friday and send it in
thanks gabe

Yes by all means....call TTS and get a RMA number...they can see what map is in the ecm.
Doc
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2012, 08:27:36 PM »

 cool i will get it tommrow   thanks doc
i made not have enough money to rebuild but  i have more people that are willing to help
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2012, 08:44:04 PM »

I don't know if it'd be such a good idea to be taking the ECM and sending it off somewhere non-H-D at this point.  Maybe if you can get a certified chain of possession with documentation regarding anything that's done with it while away...
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2012, 08:48:13 PM »

this is worth reading a fellow cvo brother has send me this  but at this time i will not give his name until he says it ok .
this should be made into a sticky its that good 
thank you
http://www.impalaclub.com/naisso/magmoss.htm

I fetched that page and started to read it but will defer to do so later.  I think the act applies more to aftermarket replacement parts than to aftermarket performance parts.  There's a distinction there.

It'd be interesting to know whether any one, by itself, of the three reasons given for denial would have kicked the bike out of warranty.  What if a SEPST had been used?
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2012, 02:38:24 PM »

this is worth reading a fellow cvo brother has send me this  but at this time i will not give his name until he says it ok .
this should be made into a sticky its that good  
thank you
http://www.impalaclub.com/naisso/magmoss.htm

This is only as good as the paper it's written on in certain circumstances, but may help in this case.  

In 1989 I bought a late model used car and an extended warranty as a business vehicle.  Without any notice, the warranty was cancelled by the dealership and they took a refund of nearly $1,300.  (Which was my money and a felony, if proven in a court of law.) Apparently they were in receivership from General Motors and getting shut down - a fact I did not know at the time.  Once I found out about eight months later, the culprits were gone, along with the dealer and Finance Manager.  I got stuck with a $900.00 repair of the clutch because the throwout bearing was not seated properly from the factory.  Up to that point, I believed the car was covered.  I got an attorney, but you can't sue a company that is bankrupt.  Chit!  That one still irks me.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 02:46:37 PM by Eagleye »
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2012, 02:43:28 PM »

 i really think iam fighting a lossing battle and do not have the funds for a lawyer or a motor
thanks its going to be a long summer with no bike
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2012, 04:11:27 PM »

gabe...I would at least file a complaint with the FTC.  What they are doing is illegal.  The FTC:  1-877-382-4357  I would also file a complaint with your local Better Business Bureau.  Neither of those things can hurt anything.

Regarding an attorney...most attorney's will not charge for an initial consultation.  What can it hurt to talk with someone about the whole situation and see if you have a case?  If you do, perhaps the lawyer will take the case on a contingency basis and not only get your bike fixed, but also collect money from the MOCO for his/her fees associated with the case.
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2012, 10:53:32 AM »

Gabe - I too had my motor let go right after a tune. I had one HD rep completely blow me off. Very frustrating to say the least. I took the bike to another dealer who was very helpful. The long and short of it was HD replaced the motor I paid the labor. Not ideal but I'll take it.

It's very important that your dealer be on your side.

Scott's point is well taken. It's mind boggling how inconsistent HD is when considering warranty claims.  Stay at it and best of luck.
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2012, 08:53:00 PM »

I've had same thing happen...factory permatex / RTV clogging up oil passageway ...took a while before oil filled up ...puked out...
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2012, 09:06:30 PM »

 its rough to swallow  but i think i got the dealer behind
me now so i should know something by tuesday good or bad
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2012, 10:23:35 PM »

its rough to swallow  but i think i got the dealer behind
me now so i should know something by tuesday good or bad


so i should know something by tuesday good or bad

Good or bad?

SBB
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2012, 05:07:34 AM »

 HE DID CALL LATE TUESDAY BUT NO ANSWER YET  MAYBE TODAY
THANKS FOR ASKING
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2012, 04:10:49 PM »

An accurate determination of these circumstances can’t really be made from an examination of the photos alone; although based on the photos and Gabe’s explanation, it does seem that there may be several paragraphs missing from the explanation.

The photographs show a great amount of dirt and sludge throughout the engine. This is significant in that this kind of contamination doesn’t occur immediately after a trigger event, but takes a fair amount of time and mileage. Some of the folks here that have straightened out a few oil burning 110’s might have some photographs of this sort of thing; although my sense is that Gabe’s photos are unique.

Engines running under the conditions pictured typically lack power; use oil; smoke; leave an oily residue in the exhaust; turn a fresh oil change black and when the crankcase pressure increases to a point, push oil through the crankcase vent into the air cleaner. The question in Gabe’s case is how long had the engine been run since the trigger event that resulted in what is seen in the photos.

Gabe’s photos show that both cylinders exhibit excessive blow-by, resulting from an undetermined trigger event. The piston skirts don’t appear unreasonably scored, indicating that the issue was not likely the result of a lack of lubrication. Evidence that the issue was the result of excessive heat rather than a mechanical failure may be found by inspecting the vat cleaned pistons as well as inspecting the exhaust guides, which become bell mouthed at the port end when subjected to extreme overheating. External evidence like the burnt clutch line seem to support a case for overheating, but things like discolored heat shields, melted plastic and rubber, etc., would be more compelling.

With regard to oiling, the orientation of the rear cylinder’s spigot, together with the flywheel’s direction of rotation, results in the rear cylinder receiving a greater percentage of the oil carried by the flywheels. When oil control becomes an issue, such as when the piston rings have been compromised, as apparent in this case, the rear cylinder will always pass more oil than the front, all other things being equal.

The tamper proof nature of H-D’s engine management controls have evolved from a couple of pop rivets securing the timer cover in 1980, to an ECM that must be “unlocked” in order to be flashed with a custom calibration. Once an operator removes the lock on the engine management controls, H-D no longer has exclusive control of these systems, and the responsibility that goes along with that control. If an issue arises after unlocking the ECM, a person might be able to determine the current installed configuration, but it is not likely that one could establish an irrefutable history of all configurations run since the ECM was unlocked; much less the conditions present throughout the tuning process.

Gabe’s engine was tuned approximately 1,000 miles prior to the eventual failure that was pictured. If the tuning effort was extensive, one would reasonably expect a series of pre-tune baseline tests to be performed in order to confirm that the engine and powertrain was mechanically sound prior to tuning. If Gabe’s engine meltdown began prior to the tuning, a leak-down test would have uncovered the problem. If a baseline series was performed and didn’t reveal any issues, then there is strong causality suggesting the engine’s calibration or the recalibration process played some role in the failure.

Regarding consistency and precedent; I believe that Chip’s issue, mentioned earlier, was the result of an exhaust valve guide dropping into the port, preventing the valve from closing. During that period there was an open “product program” which addressed an issue of mechanical failure with the cylinder heads on certain models. Chip’s machine may not have been included in the program, but the failure was a current field issue. My sense is that a warranty claim like Chip’s would be routine and wouldn’t require so much as a phone call, much less an inspection. Also, I’ll bet that the peripheral details weren’t volunteered or asked for. With Gabe, everything was on the table and on record. Dragging the boys and girls from Milwaukee up, with their pencils, note pads and cameras made that a certainty. The precedent established by H-D inspecting and covering engine damage that could be argued was caused by an unlocked, race only calibration and tuned by an independent third party, would be extreme.

My sense is that with regard to the vehicle’s powertrain flag on the VIN, you are toast; although it wouldn’t surprise me to hear that the Dealer helps you out to some extent.  :2vrolijk_21:

as always, just my humble opinion.
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2012, 04:31:27 PM »

An accurate determination of these circumstances can’t really be made from an examination of the photos alone; although based on the photos and Gabe’s explanation, it does seem that there may be several paragraphs missing from the explanation.

The photographs show a great amount of dirt and sludge throughout the engine. This is significant in that this kind of contamination doesn’t occur immediately after a trigger event, but takes a fair amount of time and mileage. Some of the folks here that have straightened out a few oil burning 110’s might have some photographs of this sort of thing; although my sense is that Gabe’s photos are unique.

Engines running under the conditions pictured typically lack power; use oil; smoke; leave an oily residue in the exhaust; turn a fresh oil change black and when the crankcase pressure increases to a point, push oil through the crankcase vent into the air cleaner. The question in Gabe’s case is how long had the engine been run since the trigger event that resulted in what is seen in the photos.

Gabe’s photos show that both cylinders exhibit excessive blow-by, resulting from an undetermined trigger event. The piston skirts don’t appear unreasonably scored, indicating that the issue was not likely the result of a lack of lubrication. Evidence that the issue was the result of excessive heat rather than a mechanical failure may be found by inspecting the vat cleaned pistons as well as inspecting the exhaust guides, which become bell mouthed at the port end when subjected to extreme overheating. External evidence like the burnt clutch line seem to support a case for overheating, but things like discolored heat shields, melted plastic and rubber, etc., would be more compelling.

With regard to oiling, the orientation of the rear cylinder’s spigot, together with the flywheel’s direction of rotation, results in the rear cylinder receiving a greater percentage of the oil carried by the flywheels. When oil control becomes an issue, such as when the piston rings have been compromised, as apparent in this case, the rear cylinder will always pass more oil than the front, all other things being equal.

The tamper proof nature of H-D’s engine management controls have evolved from a couple of pop rivets securing the timer cover in 1980, to an ECM that must be “unlocked” in order to be flashed with a custom calibration. Once an operator removes the lock on the engine management controls, H-D no longer has exclusive control of these systems, and the responsibility that goes along with that control. If an issue arises after unlocking the ECM, a person might be able to determine the current installed configuration, but it is not likely that one could establish an irrefutable history of all configurations run since the ECM was unlocked; much less the conditions present throughout the tuning process.

Gabe’s engine was tuned approximately 1,000 miles prior to the eventual failure that was pictured. If the tuning effort was extensive, one would reasonably expect a series of pre-tune baseline tests to be performed in order to confirm that the engine and powertrain was mechanically sound prior to tuning. If Gabe’s engine meltdown began prior to the tuning, a leak-down test would have uncovered the problem. If a baseline series was performed and didn’t reveal any issues, then there is strong causality suggesting the engine’s calibration or the recalibration process played some role in the failure.

Regarding consistency and precedent; I believe that Chip’s issue, mentioned earlier, was the result of an exhaust valve guide dropping into the port, preventing the valve from closing. During that period there was an open “product program” which addressed an issue of mechanical failure with the cylinder heads on certain models. Chip’s machine may not have been included in the program, but the failure was a current field issue. My sense is that a warranty claim like Chip’s would be routine and wouldn’t require so much as a phone call, much less an inspection. Also, I’ll bet that the peripheral details weren’t volunteered or asked for. With Gabe, everything was on the table and on record. Dragging the boys and girls from Milwaukee up, with their pencils, note pads and cameras made that a certainty. The precedent established by H-D inspecting and covering engine damage that could be argued was caused by an unlocked, race only calibration and tuned by an independent third party, would be extreme.

My sense is that with regard to the vehicle’s powertrain flag on the VIN, you are toast; although it wouldn’t surprise me to hear that the Dealer helps you out to some extent.  :2vrolijk_21:

as always, just my humble opinion.
well thank you for your input the dealer(Robby Cox) went to bat and lost with the mothership
but he did try which i must thank him for
he is now going to take bike from rockhill dealer and have his head engine builder at the ashboro dealership  take a look
then if his man in ashboro says it all needs to be replaced  he will bring it to Kenndale Johnson in wiston salem
where Kendall will  do the rebuild  and see what is  good and bad and what needs to be replaced  its hard to believe the lower case is bad????   but it could be 
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2012, 05:26:54 PM »

An accurate determination of these circumstances can’t really be made from an examination of the photos alone; although based on the photos and Gabe’s explanation, it does seem that there may be several paragraphs missing from the explanation.


as always, just my humble opinion.

However infrequent, Djkak always provides an educated, interesting and insightful perspective and commentary!   :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2012, 06:49:42 PM »

end result
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2012, 06:57:15 PM »

end result
Van don't you have that wrong... that's not the "end result"... that'll be when it's back together, installed and you're riding it again with confidence because you know that it has been assembled correctly with adequate parts by a competent technician (I recognize the shop ;D).

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #67 on: May 06, 2012, 06:44:22 AM »

 ok  remove bike from dealer and brought it home.. shipped the heads out to be reworked /removed the block and send out to be blanced  welded and  new arms going with 113 kit  http://www.revperf.com/Products/machineShop.html 113 
heads really did not look as bad as dealer made out to but i sended them out also cylinder walls still have the x pattern in them  and look great  / i send botom end out but i did not found a problem there either spun great but they are going to check it out before rebuilding /  and rebuld anyway why its out /   parts order and on the way  /new ss push rod kit /new fueling lifters /new roller rockers  new cams  block and heads back in about 2 weeks
 replaced cams but no wear on them lifter even look good
I  HATE BEING UPSOLD  iam happy now haveing it hear and doing it myself
has far as oil problem  the oil sample has been sended to redline wanting on answer
thanks gabe
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #68 on: May 06, 2012, 07:05:30 AM »

  removed oil pan see pics  the pink you see see red line shock proof i did not drain trans before removing oil pan
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 07:07:03 AM by gabe »
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #69 on: May 06, 2012, 07:08:18 AM »

 another
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #70 on: May 06, 2012, 07:09:28 AM »

 after cleaning and pressure washing
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #71 on: May 06, 2012, 07:11:36 AM »

 sample send to red line with filter  i also removed oil cooler and haveing that flushed and checked
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #72 on: May 06, 2012, 07:14:12 AM »

 top of where oil pan is i also cleaned but not bad
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #73 on: May 06, 2012, 07:16:04 AM »

 where block connects to trans  i also clean our and made sure ports are open all the way
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #74 on: May 06, 2012, 09:50:24 AM »

However infrequent, Djkak always provides an educated, interesting and insightful perspective and commentary!   :2vrolijk_21:


As I have mentioned before there are just a few people on this site that I can take their advice to the bank with confidence.
Scott, you and our mystery guy djkak are two of that small group of people.

 ;)

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #75 on: May 06, 2012, 10:12:53 AM »

djkak must be an automotive forensic scientist
Good commentary
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #76 on: May 06, 2012, 11:00:10 AM »


also cylinder walls still have the x pattern in them  and look great 



You don't write of your plans for the existing cylinders and pistons.  Just a fresh hone and re-ring or doing more?
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #77 on: May 06, 2012, 11:05:30 AM »

 new jugs and pistons building a 113  from http://www.revperf.com/Products/machineShop.html
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #78 on: May 06, 2012, 11:06:25 AM »

new jugs and pistons building a 113  from http://www.revperf.com/Products/machineShop.html


Missed that in the first quick read.  My bad.  Good choice.  They're a good shop.
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #79 on: May 06, 2012, 11:42:30 AM »

Just curious...why was the MOCO doing an inspection?  Did your dealer tell them that he could not determine the failure cause or did he just have an overly aggressive MOCO rep who was trying to make a name for himself.  I have had a "friend" that had a 113 build on a Fltrx and the MOCO paid for his entire repair since it was determined the cause of failure was NOT the checkered flag performance parts but the tappet...He got cases and all.  just curious???
 :soapbox:
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #80 on: May 06, 2012, 01:48:51 PM »

Just curious...why was the MOCO doing an inspection?  Did your dealer tell them that he could not determine the failure cause or did he just have an overly aggressive MOCO rep who was trying to make a name for himself.  I have had a "friend" that had a 113 build on a Fltrx and the MOCO paid for his entire repair since it was determined the cause of failure was NOT the checkered flag performance parts but the tappet...He got cases and all.  just curious???
 :soapbox:

The 64K question is who made that determination?
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #81 on: May 06, 2012, 02:29:20 PM »

 the story goes as this
they checked compression low on back cylinder ordered rings pulled it apart more then rings they ordered jugs and new heads parts department at moco  flag went up rep came out
and the bike ran going into shop now i get it back in parts
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #82 on: May 06, 2012, 07:17:29 PM »

...I have had a "friend" that had a 113 build on a Fltrx and the MOCO paid for his entire repair since it was determined the cause of failure was NOT the checkered flag performance parts but the tappet...He got cases and all...
 :soapbox:

The 64K question is who made that determination?

My sense is that each case of a covered failure with a modified machine stands on its own merits, and the specific details surrounding each failure. The result of looking at various random failures out of context appears somewhat nonsensical, which is really no surprise.

In the case of a failed tappet roller: if the failed tappet was from a batch of tappets with known issues, it doesn’t seem at all unusual that H-D would step up with a complete or partial solution. Earlier SE tappets, sourced through Jim’s, created very significant headaches for both Jim’s and H-D. I have seen these tappets, in the early stages of failure, with as little as 3,000ish miles on them. I squared-off one of these SE tappet rollers in my own 113 Road Glide a few years back.

The circumstances around Gabe’s meltdown appear much less obvious than Chip’s issue mentioned earlier, or a mechanical meltdown resulting from one of the early SE tappet failures, if that’s what caused that specific failure.
jmho
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #83 on: May 06, 2012, 07:51:00 PM »

My sense is that each case of a covered failure with a modified machine stands on its own merits, and the specific details surrounding each failure. The result of looking at various random failures out of context appears somewhat nonsensical, which is really no surprise.

In the case of a failed tappet roller: if the failed tappet was from a batch of tappets with known issues, it doesn’t seem at all unusual that H-D would step up with a complete or partial solution. Earlier SE tappets, sourced through Jim’s, created very significant headaches for both Jim’s and H-D. I have seen these tappets, in the early stages of failure, with as little as 3,000ish miles on them. I squared-off one of these SE tappet rollers in my own 113 Road Glide a few years back.

The circumstances around Gabe’s meltdown appear much less obvious than Chip’s issue mentioned earlier, or a mechanical meltdown resulting from one of the early SE tappet failures, if that’s what caused that specific failure.
jmho

HI WHO EVER YOU ARE I THANK YOU FOR INPUT BUT AFTER LOOKING AT PICS WHAT DO YOU THINK  REALLY CAUSED MY PROBLEM HAVE NOT GOT A STRAIGHT ANSWER FROM ANYBODY YET AND WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR OPINION ON THIS
THANKS GABE
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 07:52:35 PM by gabe »
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #84 on: May 06, 2012, 08:18:42 PM »

What does the oil filter look like :confused5:
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #85 on: May 06, 2012, 08:20:14 PM »

 WE CUT IT OPEN AND LOOKS BAD AND SEND IT OFF WITH OIL
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #86 on: May 06, 2012, 09:19:03 PM »


HI WHO EVER YOU ARE I THANK YOU FOR INPUT BUT AFTER LOOKING AT PICS WHAT DO YOU THINK  REALLY CAUSED MY PROBLEM HAVE NOT GOT A STRAIGHT ANSWER FROM ANYBODY YET AND WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR OPINION ON THIS
THANKS GABE

Hey Gabe, I apologize if it seems like I’m hacking on you. Reply #62 covers my perspective of your failure in some detail; additional speculation really wouldn’t add any value. I wouldn’t bet my paycheck on any inspection made over the ether in this manner; but that’s just me. A pro with ample field experience could clean this mess up, inspect the damage and give you a pretty clear idea of the root cause.
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #87 on: May 06, 2012, 09:46:28 PM »

The 64K question is who made that determination?
Me...with very little doubt in my voice...I was told by a MOCO REP that a 113 was not a covered "warrrantable" issue...I simply restated the use of the performance parts MAY as in "...Installation of Screamin’ Eagle® products, and similar off-road or competition products from other manufacturers, except some street-legal offerings installed by authorized Harley® dealers, may void your H-D® limited vehicle warranty. See your dealer for more information."   I have had a claim suspended until a customer could produce maintenance records...I have yet had the MOCO come to the shop and inspect prior to having the repair  completed.  I have had a few claims suspended until the failed part in question was returned to the MOCO for their satisfaction inspection....I have had ESP claims denied, then inspected then okd.   BUT the ESP plan is NOT a warranty nor a warranty extention but rather an Extended Service Plan that is more specific in what is a serviceable or covered component, and most ESP plans exclude performance enhancements and consequential damages...
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #88 on: May 07, 2012, 02:14:55 AM »

If you didnt already know my bike did the same thing at 5500 miles. I had been to the hd dealer earlier and came to the conclusion that they were total morons. Instead of fighting the warranty thing i took it up to jim at metal dragon and am relying on him to make it right at my expense. He found that i had a bad valve seat,there was seroius carbon build up on piston and heads, front piston ring stuck in groove, cyl and piston clearence were out at .0045, rod side play was out cant remember #s,crank run out was .0065 within hd spec but no one elses. So the crank will be welded,trued and balanced,new pistons .010 over,valve job,cams. Good thing i still have the 05 SEEG rode the crap out of it for almost 500 miles saturday and it never missed a beat. 66000 miles
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #89 on: May 07, 2012, 10:12:09 PM »

If you didnt already know my bike did the same thing at 5500 miles....

Sorry to read about your new machine. I looked back a bit didn’t see photos of the engine. I wish both you and Gabe the best going forward.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 10:18:18 PM by djkak »
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #90 on: May 07, 2012, 10:27:11 PM »

If you didnt already know my bike did the same thing at 5500 miles. I had been to the hd dealer earlier and came to the conclusion that they were total morons. Instead of fighting the warranty thing i took it up to jim at metal dragon and am relying on him to make it right at my expense. He found that i had a bad valve seat,there was seroius carbon build up on piston and heads, front piston ring stuck in groove, cyl and piston clearence were out at .0045, rod side play was out cant remember #s,crank run out was .0065 within hd spec but no one elses. So the crank will be welded,trued and balanced,new pistons .010 over,valve job,cams. Good thing i still have the 05 SEEG rode the crap out of it for almost 500 miles saturday and it never missed a beat. 66000 miles


I guess Jim hd-dude can tell us if the issue with Van's motor appears to be the same as Gabes. Above was a very good description of what happened to Vans motor but unless I missed it there has been no explanation as to what happened to Gabes motor.

 :nixweiss: :nixweiss:   :nervous:   :nixweiss:


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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #91 on: May 07, 2012, 11:18:35 PM »



I guess Jim hd-dude can tell us if the issue with Van's motor appears to be the same as Gabes. Above was a very good description of what happened to Vans motor but unless I missed it there has been no explanation as to what happened to Gabes motor.

 :nixweiss: :nixweiss:   :nervous:   :nixweiss:
SBB

The photos of Gabe’s meltdown do a pretty good job of covering the issue. The cause hasn’t been uncovered yet; some cleanup and a few more photos would help with that.

IMO, the tolerance issues that Van describes would not result in the meltdown pictured in Gabe’s photographs. The “bad seat” also doesn’t describe the issue with the seat. A mechanical failure resulting in damage to the piston, cylinder or rings would leave strong evidence of the failure, yet there is no description or photos to support that.

I don’t care to offer detailed comment on Van’s issue without decent photographs; that would seem too much like shaking the angry bumble bee in the jar; what’s the point. I agree with Van on the tolerance issues, and wouldn’t offer push-back to that.

My sense is that Gabe’s engine damaged was the result of severe overheating. If the exhaust valve guides are bell mouthed at the port end, that would support the overheating theory, as it also would with Van if his circumstances are similar.
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #92 on: May 07, 2012, 11:44:13 PM »

got a couple of pics
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #93 on: May 07, 2012, 11:44:41 PM »

-
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #94 on: May 07, 2012, 11:45:17 PM »

-
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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #95 on: May 08, 2012, 11:13:57 PM »

got a couple of pics

Some of the photos are washed-out by the flash, reducing the detail, but clearly there is an oil control issue; although the detail in the photos isn’t clear enough to point at anything specific.

If hd-dude has a couple of low mileage, standard size 110 “take off” pistons laying around, they could be used to help gauge the condition of Van’s front cylinder piston.

Van writes that that there is .0045” piston to cylinder clearance. This is exceptionally high and may be the result of a collapsed skirt resulting from extreme heat. In my experience, issues with excessive clearance are usually the result of inconsistent bore dimension, rather than a broad variance between pistons. I would expect standard size pistons to have less than .001” of variance; significantly more than that and I would suspect a skirt collapse related to overheating.

As a piston overheats the contact patch with the cylinder will increase in width. If the pattern on Van’s front piston is significantly wider than a known good used piston, that is a good indication of higher than normal operating temps.

After cleaning the piston, preferably in a vat, if there is any evidence of material missing from the top of the piston, that would be clear evidence of unstable combustion and extreme heat. Cracked ring lands would also be clear evidence of unstable combustion.

Gauge the top compression ring’s tension in the cylinder by hand, and compare it with a known good top piston ring. If the ring has little or no tension, that is clear evidence of extreme overheating.

The compression rings do not run flat against the bore, so if the wear pattern on either ring, typically the top ring, runs the full depth of the ring in any spot, that is compelling evidence of a lubricant issue, considering the low mileage.

Good luck Van.
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gabe

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #96 on: June 03, 2012, 08:20:12 PM »

  thanks to all that took the time to jump in and help
special thanks to revolution performance for a good bottom end and head rebuild
steve from tts  taking the time to explain how the ecm works
doc for sending me a tune to start from
wife and son for putting up with me and the bike down
rode her today 150 miles back on the road
sounds good iam a happy camper and now have a harley motor build under my belt
the only real down side was the money
thanks gabe
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 08:26:01 PM by gabe »
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2009 ultra black
1962 impala 409/ 4 speed /posi rear/ 2 4 barrels

Hawg

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Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #97 on: June 03, 2012, 11:29:28 PM »

Congrats on the successful rebuild :2vrolijk_21: Are you running Redline thru her veins?
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Hawg

barefoot3zk5

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    • CVO1: 2011 FLHXSEII Dragula 2/1 exh.. Performance Mach airbox..Metalsports 26" front wheel w/6piston singleside brake 13" rotor and matched 18" rear 200 tire..TTS tuner by DOC .. Woods cams and Hi comp pistons.. 600 LEDs hidden PLUS, SONY head unit and gauges all green LEDs to match,500watt ARC amp w/4 Focal6.5 spkrs,Install by Peter @SOUNDZ .. Yafee tag frame . chrome inner/outer primary. greeen gator seat/backrest ..major engine mods 125+ HP and powder coated heads/cyl and diamond cut. homemade rear air suspension
Re: last Saturday my bike bleed out
« Reply #98 on: June 03, 2012, 11:49:39 PM »

Gabe .. good to see you and the family survived the crisis .. as they say " what dont kill ya , will make ya stronger " although .. at times I wonder .. you prolly have better than what ya started with .. I too am a Rev Perf fan ..
 Congrats .. now enjoy ..
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